Hektor Heresy: Still Alive Edition

>>How to change the Imperial Cult from an underground group to state religion. Proposed idea here →

Religions don't start because somebody with a lot of power decides to start a church. Religions start in the masses, grassroots style. In the OU, Euphrati Keeler starts preaching about the God Emperor before the heresy breaks out. She escapes on the eisenstein, and starts preaching in secret temples across the orbital plates of Terra. Rogal Dorn tries to hunt her down but there are dozens of false trails and thousands of people protecting her from arbites investigators.

When you have something like that spreading, nothing can stop it. It doesn't matter if Gaspard has a boner for the Imperial Truth so hard it could cut glass. What's he gonna do, execute half the people in the Imperium for apostacy? No statesman can truly control the minds of his people.

How did Christianity go from being an underground group to a state religion? Simple. It grew until the believers outnumbered the unbelievers. In Rome's case it spread specifically among the soldiers, and so politicians had to grant christianity state approval to gain the favor of the legions.

Eventually, the hydra simply has too many heads.

One by one, the marines of the Seventh arrived at Columbia. In ragged and tired fleets they came over decades, worn and beaten from their journey and their furious parting campaigns, to say nothing of the proceeding years of neglect. Fleet after fleet transferred out of the warp to see the grand star-fortress Yorkton, atop which stood the towering bronze colossus, Lady Columbia herself, beacon raised to guide them, hand outstretched to welcome them. Upon arrival, each and every one of them was broken down from their original chapters and reformed into a new battlefleet, with each chapter being broken down to individual squads and mixed into other chapters. Marines were broken into roles for their legion depending on what skills they had acquired, creating a melting pot of the skills of other legions. Every marine found himself in a new company, in a new chapter, in a new battlefleet, but his squadmates were still with him and they were all resupplied from the vast forges and foundries of the UCFM. The morale crisis that had so long plagued the legion was blasted away by the presence of their Primarch, the bettering of their lives, and the Light of Columbia. Finally, this weary Seventh legion had a home. Finally, they had a father. Finally, they had a name. No longer were they scattered, unlauded, unpainted grey soldiers. Now they were the Sons of Columbia, unstoppable in might and unmatchable in number.

There are two main goals in mind here.

First, avoid stepping on the toes of other writers. I know there's a lot of lore established already, so I'm intentionally moving forward with a legion that doesn't require a ton of interaction with other author's legion, but will still have the galactic presence to do so if people so desire. The legion is self sufficient enough that it won't ever need help, and the primarch (believing firmly in democracy and liberty) would be initially mistrustful of his brothers, seeing them as tyrants until proven otherwise, so it's unlikely he'd go out of his way to interact with them.

Second, I want to create an idealized western democracy IN SPESS, leaning heavily on American culture (especially that of the 17-1800's) that will slowly devolve into increasingly totalitarian and imperialistic methods as the heresy/crusade goes on. The idea here is to parody/imitate the ups and downs of western/american values and cultural habits, and shove them into 40k to watch the ensuing chaos.

Third, I want to keep true to American culture with the legion. It's going to be a legion of immigrants who grew up among other legions and learned their way, then brought them to a shining idealized state that isn't so perfect if you look closely. They're going to have crazy industrial and military power, and they're going to generally give zero shits about what other legions are doing (i want to clarify that this will just be a lore point, I'll still do my best to avoid stepping on other writefag's toes).

They're probably going to end up being the bastard children of the Ultramarines and Iron Warriors, with a topcoat of American Exceptionalism and British Imperialism.

In future, you guys should put some kind of new-poster blurb and a link to the wiki hub in your OP like we do. I've found the simple blurb in our OPs is very effective at keeping a steady flow of anonposters to help out and ask questions.

Also I welcome project cross-pollination. Feel free to come poke holes in Imperium Asunder's plot so we can make it make more sense

Look what I found

Where have I seen that face before?

For the sake of comparison.

Not sure which I prefer.

But then again, there is this.

I saw your sketch you posted after I went to bed last night.

I'll always feel the original is best (because it shall forever hold the first place in my heart), but it's pretty cool that you felt like going back and doing another.

He looks less boyish in the second one.

On for his finding, another for him on the eve of the Destruction of Lazarus?

The hair is better in the first. It looks more realistic I think, and its style fits better with the other portraits imo

The second does show more of the armour though. I like it when they show a bit of the armour bling.

You mean the third one?

Kalkas ends up really weeding out the idiots and placing the more secretive, intelligent Hereteks even higher up. It ends up making the Martian civil war bloodier than in OU.

Shh! Ideas are forming...

Chaos Undivided Traitor Army, animated by clockwork and electronics. Like those German zombies in Sucker Punch.

I'd fund it.

So lets see...

>Gren (Working name) Bloody Eyes
Scopedog IA.

>Solidus Chromehounds
Metal... Gear? Minus the ICBMs.

>XXX Windups (Working name)
Traitor clockwork zombie IA.

Also, can we, like, drop those galactic interchange guys?

Could be fun. 1/3rd skitarii, 1/3rd chaos daemons, 1/3rd Cult Mechanicus, 100% fuck your MEQ's.

>Solidus Chromehounds
>not Diamond Hounds

Remember the fallen, friend.

This is awesome.

I think naming it Columbia is a wee bit on the nose, but other than that, you've got some awesome bits so far. Keep up the good work!

>pic related

>Diamond Hounds
Seconded.

>Although we do have the Canis Vulpin Regiments.

>>Diamond Hounds
>Seconded.
BITCH IT'S A REFERENCE

I'll have their entire legion identity and primarch story written out by the end of the night.

I'm digging the Sons of Columbia legion name and Columbia homeworld, so I'm keeping that shit.

Writing out the more formalized primarch story now.

I really like this idea. Looking forward to hearing about the primarch. The focus on a melting pot legion is interesting, presents a lot of opportunities for a "libertarian" type of legion that prides itself on the inventiveness of its individual commanders, a lot of specialization and unique units, which in turn gives infinite opportunity for interesting warbands and characters.

I can certainly see his point here though. I tried messing with the spelling and that wasn't yielding much. It's not too bad though, it's not like its Planet Washington.

>someone else remembers chrome hounds
you're good people

You know you're also going to have to write out a Legion Organisation and doctrine page similar to this.

===A Legion of Liberators===
With fresh spirits and renewed fury, the Sons of Columbia took to the stars in their great battlefleets, each a great armada of ships with multiple chapters of warriors and hundreds of thousands of loyal militia reserve. First the legion began conquering all the worlds surrounding the Federation, freeing system after system from Xenos intruders who'd dared claimed the rightful territory of man, and petty human civilizations who kept their citizens from enjoying the light of freedom. Soon they'd taken a massive swathe of Segmentum Obscuras. Supposedly they conquered in the name of the Emperor, but even from the beginning there were those within the Imperium who recognised that Thomas Magton was conquering not for the Emperor, but for his own ideals of democracy and fair rule. Over the following years, the Sons of Columbia conquered hundreds of worlds for the Federation, turning those closest to the center into lush garden worlds whose agricultural output fed the rest of the Federation. Those worlds further out became manufactorum worlds to feed the great armies of Columbia. Worlds at the edge of the newly expanded federation became fortress worlds, made intentionally unfit for life by the intense stripmining and the use of atomantic bombs to burn away the atmospheres of the worlds to make them that much harder to attack or occupy, until they were little more than dark, barren balls of rock that bristled with fortresses, armories, and orbital defense platforms. With shot and sword, with fire and fury, the Sons of Columbia brought life and light to every world they touched.

After their great federation was secured, the Sons took to their duty as crusaders, going forth into the stars to reclaim them for humanity. To many of the commanders they'd once served under, it had seemed like the legion had disappeared. Decades ago rumors of their primarch had begun to spread, and the warriors of the Seventh had begun their mass exodus from the warzones of the empire. If word was to be believed they were working with Thomas Magton, a man most of the Primarchs had never even seen, much less met. There were stories of a new power rising in the west, but there was so little contact with them in the chaotic days of the Great Crusade that none could be sure. After what seemed to many to be decades of silence from the Seventh Legion, they surged forth from their home systems to simultaneously assist in the galactic war they'd ignored for so long. Where the departing seventh legion had deprived commanders of tens of thousands of warriors, the returning Sons of Columbia brought them back reinforced, along with dozens of fresh fleets and millions of mortal soldiers. All across the galaxy, the Sons of Liberty worked alongside those who had once commanded them, winning campaign after campaign with their overwhelming firepower and versatile soldiers.

To many the Sons seemed to be a blessing, an infusion of men and materiel sorely needed as the increasing demands of the Great Crusade began to wear on the Imperium's army and manufacturing capacity. A few more perceptive individuals were smart enough to worry. From the beginning, the cracks between the Sons of Liberty and the rest of the Imperium were plain to see for those who cared to look. The long years serving under the command of other primarchs, many of whom cared little for them, had left them weary of the wider Imperium, to say nothing of their primarch's distrust for his father. It had never been enough to incite thoughts of rebellion, but it was enough. At best this guarded approach grew to be a glorious thing, fueling friendly rivalries between the Sons of Liberty and the legions they had once served under. This lead to famous campaigns such as the scouring of Amatsu, where the Sons of Liberty and the Heralds of Hektor took an entire system of fortress worlds and moons in less than three hours, spurring each other to greater feats of courage and ingenuity with friendly taunts and boasting. At worst, the Sons bordered on traitorous. Some legions they entirely refused to work alongside, such as the [[Eternal Zealots]] and [[Black Augurs]], whose practices they saw as deviant and immoral. Many in command of the legion also held bitter sentiments, resenting the commanders they'd once served under. Often times they refused to cooperate or communicate with other legions at all, fighting in their own warzones whenever possible, and when circumstances dictated, they'd fight ''alongside'' their brother legions, but never ''with'' them.

Can we specify which Legions currently have an active writer and which ones are on the chopping block?

On the chopping block, we have the Crimson Teeth.

The Justicars also have the "to-be-Exterminatus'd" thing on the top of their article on 1d4chan, that should be taken down then.

Also, most of the Legion pages haven't been touched for a while, do we know who's currently in charge of which?

That... is news to me. I'm going to see what that's about.

>A Legion of Liberators
Actually, I like the name Liberators.

>Planet Washington
Ooh, good idea.

>Lots of legion variety
That's the idea. I imagine the legion having literally tens of thousands of possible loyalists when the heresy kicks off, because of just how diverse and spread out they all are.

>lots of specialization and unique units
Yup, just gotta balance that against their MUH HEAVY WEAPONS theme. And roughriders. So help me god, they're going to have a NOTteddy Roosevelt who leads an army of elite roughriders, because America invented that name, so hell if we aren't going to own it.

I'll write out a formalized legion structure later on, but it probably won't be so involved as that one. The Sons of Columbia will have battlefleets as their primary organization (much like USA naval battlegroups). Each one with 10,000 astartes (including support staff) along with hundreds of thousands of shipmen and mortal militia warriors (guard). There will be 15-20 of these active within the galaxy at any given point during the heresy, with more being made as time goes on (because of this, they'll likely be one of the largest legions, if not the largest, but they'll have a lot of loyalists to help counterbalance that when the heresy kicks off).

Still digging the Sons of Columbia name, but I get the feeling Liberators might grow on me. I'll have to see how it sits in my head as I work.

>sons of colombia

So you're making Bioshock Infinite: The Legion?

Dude, Columbia is way older than bioshock. They took an american symbol and ran with it. If you made a legion called the Brave Companions, and gave it a nordic theme, are you making Skyrim: The legion? No, because that name and idea are way older than video games.

Columbia (also known as Lady Liberty) was basically the US's mascot until Uncle Sam took over the job, Pic related.

1d4chan.org/wiki/Screaming_Eagles

Someone done beat ya to the punch, boy. Merican Mehreens is old hat.

I'm guessing you're either Navy or a Navy kid. Just a guess.

Still looking into this, will find out more info, but they are not getting deleted anytime soon.

>"Thing is way older than [reference] and it upsets me when people think it came from [reference]
>Doesn't know Columbia was a reference to Christopher Columbus

Josman, perhaps you can distill it to its core essence of themes while removing the opaque references, and switching them out for something else? For example, the Iroquis had plenty of democracy going on, as did Polish Slavs, and so on. Find something for a theme of democracy, and run with it. So you can have this corruptive downfall play out without it being entirely Murica Muhreens, because as stated by the user below - it's been done, and we can all do better.

The obvious answer is rip off Rome. Like, seriously ripping off Republican Rome would be stupidly easy. Unfortunately EVERYTHING 40k is Roman.

That's a skeleton of an idea. It's got no substance beyond being a joke, and my interpretation is better. Rather than just "red white and blue marines who don't like tau" I came up with an actual backstory and legion culture. I continue onward!

I do know it's a reference to Christopher Columbus, and I don't know why you'd infer I didn't from what I said.

>it's been done
I firmly insist that it hasn't though. That 1d4chan page isn't a page about a chapter, it's a basic concept someone put ten minutes of work into. You want Polish marines? Been done. Iroquois marines? Been done. Instead of saying I should change my themeing, explain WHY I should change it. 40k is jammed to the gills with direct approximations from history. Why not have some NOTamericans?

The point is that when you take on the mantle of a culture to be your inspiration, writers never manage to extract themselves from that "parody" realm.

By accepting a theme, you have an easy road to write on, but you also cripple your ability to do anything original.

Well, I'm going to be frank. America doesn't have a rich enough history, honestly. Also, none of the themes you want are tied specifically to a culture. Now I'm being obtuse, you are correct that switching the naming and such around won't really change anything. But what I'm hoping to say here is...

Warhammer is about many, many things. Primarily absurd science fiction and fantasy escapism. American names are very recent in our collective conscience so it instantly pulls us out of that. Plus, many people are more familiar of America and American culture as it's the main culture of Globalism. So they're more aware of references to it.

I'm still not really re-acclimated to the Hektor Heresy setting so take my opinions with a grain of salt. Also I read notoriously slowly because I sub-vocalize and I'm still going through what you wrote.

One thing having more raw copy than another does not make it better. It's the same basic idea, you just came up with a relatively simple backstory and wrote it with a serious tone instead of a tongue-in-cheek one. You can jam out a few paragraphs on a concept in very little time, that doesn't necessary make that concept good. Personally I think cultural allusions aren't a very good basis for a legion. It leads to things seeming really cartoony and sometimes very forced. That is not to imply that your idea is cartoony or forced.

Here are a few questions to help flesh out and explore the idea:
>Which Primarch and Legion do they get along with most? Who do their ideologies match well with?
>Which Primarch and Legion do they get along with least? Who do their ideologies clash with?
>How do they fight, and why do they fight that way?
>If the Galaxy was at peace, what would they be instead of soldiers?
>How do you imagine the introduction of Thomas Magton would alter the plotline? What major impacts would he have?
>If you completely stripped their !American theme, what would be left?
>What is cool about this idea to you? Where did it come from, and why do you like it enough to suggest it?

Because of all the nations that have ever existed, MURHICA has the most baggage and memes attached to it, save for maybe Rome.

No one will ever give your work an unbiased look, and you will get harassed forever depending on what perspective you legitimize in your work.

For example: Trail of Tears, a classically "American" event in their history.

If you allude to this event in your work, you then take all the vitriol that has built up in the real world regarding the Trail of Tears, and inject it into your own writing. If you come out and imply that America shouldn't have done it, you get yelled at by Manifest Destiny wanks. If you say that the Trail was ok, you get yelled at by liberals.

Similar reasons apply to all other historical events of course, this is merely an illustrative example. Learn to make your references more subtle, or be doomed to the same hamfisted, brainless barrel of mediocrity the 1d4chan.org/wiki/Screaming_Eagles falls into.

And like this guy says, everyone knows America, and all the meme baggage that it carries with it.

Is it really worth your time to make Murica The Legion just so you can wank over having a gigantic navy, or be the seven billionth person to say "Boy that Teddy Roosevelt guy was AWESOME, I remember reading that Cracked article about him five years ago like everyone else!

Can you name one original thing in all of warhammer? Because I can't My goal is not to be original in concept, there are no original concepts left in warhammer. There are marimes, either canon or fanmade, for every single idea you could come up with. My idea, as stated here is to mix 18th and 19th century american ideals, with mixed european imperialist themes. I can show how even genuinely pluralistic, democractic societies could be corrupted by the conditions of the 40k universe, something that no writer has ever really touched. Before you shout tau, consider that they're far more facist than communist or democratic.

>America doesn't have a rich enough history, honestly
1. HAHAHAHAHA
2. Some other legion cultures include: Criminals, wizards, ravens, and lizards. How 'bout that rich wizard history, or that sick raven culture?

>it's too recent
You know what's more recent than 1700's and 1800's american culture? World War I (death corps of krieg), World War II (iron warriors, imperial guard), Vietnam (Catachan Jungle Fighters), modern special forces (Elysian Drop Troops, Deathwatch).

>they're more aware of the references
Are they? Because I bet your average person could tell me more about vikings or mongols than they could tell me about valley forge. For crying out loud, most people who see the legion name are going to think of bioshock before they think of the nation's first mascot.

Has a really good point. 40k in general, and the Hektor Heresy especially, is full of alliterations and references.

I put a commander literally named Snake Fisher into the IR, for example. There is a tightrope to walk though. If you just namedrop throughout your work, it takes the reader out of what you're trying to say, and invites issues as pointed out in I generally like to obfuscate what I'm referencing through at least a layer of synonym and language. When you're using proper nouns, that makes the task a bit harder.

Generally, we created our Legions, tactics, and methods first and fit that to a culture second.

Don't get me wrong, I like what you've got, and want more of it. But always take the time to listen to criticism, even if it's harsh and/or blunt. And within this group, we have a strong tendency for harsh and blunt critique.

>You can jam out a few paragraphs quick
Actually, this is what I spent my entire arternoon on. I guarentee I've put more thought into it than anyone else here. While that does make me more inclined to be defensive about it, it also means that I can see things the rest of you can't right now, including the considerable about of work I've yet to post yet. I'm going to keep worlking on it till it's a complete project. Then we can judge it.

>Which priamrchs/legion do they get along with well.
Already started working on this to some extent, can't do anything substantive without other writefags agreeing.

>Which primarchs/legion do they get along with least
Same answer as above.

>How do they fight, and in what way.
I literally have entire tabletop rulesets written for them. Tactics, rules, and the fluff to back them up? You're entering MY territory, friend.

>If they galaxy was at peace, what would they be doing
Already written out, just haven't posted it yet, though this question is less useful than you might think. Ask yourself the same of the Black Templars, or the Space Wolves.

>How do you imagine the introduction of the Sons of Columbia will impact the plotline
Already posted, just go read up. The first answer kind of applies here again.

>If you complete stripped the merican theme, what would be left.
Almost everything. The ONLY overty american references in the entire freaking writeup is names and terminology. Shining beacon, melting pot, columbia... Those are just names I could change those and you'd never know it was based on America if you didn't stop to read between the lines.

>What is cool about this idea.
In a word? Contrast.

>something that no writer has ever really touched
>I guarentee I've put more thought into it than anyone else here.
Step 1 of being a good writer is to get the fuck over yourself.

I take it back.

You're just as buttflustered as all the other people that have taken part in the Hektor Heresy, and you react just as badly when people pick holes in blatantly meme-laden ideas.

Have fun, you belong here.

>Because of all the nations that have ever existed, MURHICA has the most baggage and memes attached to it, save for maybe Rome.
Explain to me how this is relevant. Are you worried about offending someone? I'm not just being facetious here, I genuinely don't get it.

>No one will ever give your work an unbiased look
This is true of literally all human work in history. Everyone has biases.

>You risk injecting modern feelings into your perception
Again, I don't see how this is a bad thing. There are oodles and oodles of that in canon 40k.

>Similar reasons apply to all other historical events of course, this is merely an illustrative example. Learn to make your references more subtle, or be doomed to the same hamfisted, brainless barrel of mediocrity the 1d4chan.org/wiki/Screaming_Eagles falls into.

I think this >>If you complete stripped the merican theme, what would be left.
>Almost everything. The ONLY overty american references in the entire freaking writeup is names and terminology. Shining beacon, melting pot, columbia... Those are just names I could change those and you'd never know it was based on America if you didn't stop to read between the lines.
Illustrates my point quiet well. As I've said, all the names are a work in progress, and the themes behind them are strong.

I think your answers would be found in the above, and here .

Prove me wrong. Seriously, don't just say I'm wrong, make a point.

If you aren't going to actually make a point, your word is worth nothing. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm flustered or reacting badly. It's called discussion. You make a point. I disagree with you. You make a counterpoint. I disagree with that. It's not hard.

I wasn't being combative or even implying that your writing was bad but you're being really defensive.

>Already started working on this to some extent, can't do anything substantive without other writefags agreeing.
I'm asking for speculation, not substantive canon.

>I literally have entire tabletop rulesets written for them
I'm not talking about rules

>You're entering MY territory, friend.
get over yourself

>this question is less useful than you might think. Ask yourself the same of the Black Templars, or the Space Wolves.
Actually, that answer is *extremely* useful. Knowing that the Spess Wolves couldn't possibly be anything other than soldiers tells you a LOT about them.

>Almost everything. The ONLY overty american references in the entire freaking writeup is names and terminology. Shining beacon, melting pot, columbia... Those are just names I could change those and you'd never know it was based on America if you didn't stop to read between the lines.
The theme runs a LOT deeper than that, dude. It seems to pervade everything they are. The grimdark democracy shit stems directly from the American theme. What I'm asking is, what ELSE is there?

>people disagree with him
>counterpoints to him are made

>NO SRSLY BRO PROVE ME WRONG

Come on dude, you want mathematical proofs for cultural and literary concepts? Damn you're full of yourself. You should know better than that.

>Prove me wrong. Seriously, don't just say I'm wrong, make a point.
What a fundamental misunderstanding of a post. That post had nothing to do with right/wrong.

A warhammer 40k American fanfic legion you hammered out in an afternoon is not the second coming of jesus christ. This is not high literature, it's fun garbage posted on Veeky Forums.

Hey guys what's-

I'll come back later.

Nah, come, sit, stay.

Lemme grab a beer and a lawn chair for ya.

In other news, check out this short excerpt I wrote and keep reposting because nobody comments on it because it's relatively insubstantial and nothing really happens.

pastebin.com/vK5bEAKM

I made you a weeaboo. See pic.

I also want to daemons in Pacificus.

>you're being really defensive.
Quite possibly. I'm somewhat annoyed by the fact that people are complaining about a legion being too american, despite the fact that it has only 3 overt american references.

>speculation, no substantive canon
Like I said, working on it.

>I'm not talking about rules
I know. But in order to make rules, you need a very solid idea of how an army fights. Meant to imply that, should have been more clear.

>get over yourself
That was a joke, a reference to the majority of my work on the project thus far; taking lore concepts and converting them into practical terms and tabletop rules.

>questioning their use outside battle
Okay, that's fair, I phrased that really poorly. My point was more to reference the fact that war is absolutely intrinsic to most warhammer 40k concepts and factions, but yeah, I was rather unclear.

I think I'm misunderstanding you. You're asking me what's left of my legion once I remove their legion culture?... What's left of the space wolves when you take out the wolves and vikings? What's left of the Catachan jungle fighters when you remove vietnam war movies? What's left of the Blood Angels when you remove the vampire/angel/artist thing they have going on?... Guys with guns. That's what's left.

My point was that you never really made a counterpoint. To use your own idiom against you, my idea was A. You criticism was B. I countered B with C. You then said, "yeah but B".

>none of this is important
I know. What made you think I thought it was important. People made comments.I responded to them. Discussion happened. If you're going to make literary criticism, why would you be annoyed at me using the same ideas to debate your ideas?

You wanna write a democratic government falling to madness, despair, and grimdark? Fine.

You wanna write of a people in a shining state with darkness within? Sure.

You want a Legion that's more of a grab-bag/melting pot of skills and abilities, rather than a more rigidly defined organization style? Great.

NONE OF THAT NEEDS TO HAVE ANY LINKS TO AMERICA OR ITS CULTURE.

You can just as easily make up the names, make up the places, and call it a day, and then you're FREE. Free to write whatever you want without someone going "Oh, Tehdi Rhuuseveldt is a Chapter Master? I bet he's a real... Rough Rider on that Marine Bike of his, LOLOLOL".

That's why cultural and historic references are good to use for themes, but when people make it obvious that it's just some wallpaper layered over a bunch of Wikipedia historical articles, it kinda looks a bit shite, mate.

>What's left of the space wolves when you take out the wolves and vikings?
The Space Wolves are the Emperor's executioners. They do not balk at orders others would refuse. They do what they are told, no matter how horrible the task. They are introspective, constantly vigilant against malificarum, and unendingly suspicious of others.

pic related.

They why are the most popular 40k and 30k chapters/legions just space marine + broad concept (ie, Knights, Vikings, Vampires, Ravens)?

>only 3 references
Yes, you only have 3 references, but they are rather LOUD references.

>In general
I'm just going to venture that you're not really used to doing something like this. Take a breath, disconnect your own personal feelings from your work, and look at it dispassionately. I'm guilty of being overly protective of my own work on more than one occasion. We all are. But we also need to forget our own egos once in a while and learn to live with others' judgement.

Why are we still arguing over this?

Interesting to see how those would fit in with the more recent version of Golgothos, the version that goes insane and decides that all humanity must become Dreadnoughts so they can conquer death.

>people are complaining about a legion being too american
Don't conflate posters. Other people may be complaining about that, I'm not. I'm just asking questions so you can (hopefully) show that they're more than a caricature. I think it's a potentially neat idea, though I admit I think it's currently a little weak. That's why I'm asking for more: because I like what I've seen already. Although I agree strongly with Merril that references should be obfuscated.

These questions are not attacks on the concept. They are attempts to give you opportunities to explore further. I have found such prompting questions extremely useful in my own writing. I'm only trying to help, brother.

>Like I said, working on it.
Work on it here in the thread, then. Show us more. Spitball.

>That was a joke, a reference to the majority of my work on the project thus far; taking lore concepts and converting them into practical terms and tabletop rules.
OK, it read like sort of a "i know what I'm talking about and you don't." Sorry about that. Can you share those lore concepts further? Ideas are no good if they stay in your head.

>Okay, that's fair, I phrased that really poorly. My point was more to reference the fact that war is absolutely intrinsic to most warhammer 40k concepts and factions, but yeah, I was rather unclear.
So are they that kind of warriors, who think of nothing BUT war? Or are they more like Lumey's dudes who have minds toward more loftier concepts? Are they mindless weapons, or warrior idealists? How do they see war? And more importantly, WHY do they see it that way?

It was written just before IA came about and I learned the Hektor Heresy was still going, so it's sort of agnostic to the new Entombed (who i can't stop raving about, honestly, you guys really improved the concept.)

Most particularly i'm interested in what you guys think of the psyker slave idea. I think it would fit well with the new Necrowalker narrative, with Golgothos hating all sorts of "magick."

Honesty, I think this guy answers your point better than I could. NONE of the concepts I have absolutely NEED to be american. There are plenty of other cultures in history that have come together from disparate ethnic groups to become a much more powerful collective. Peel away the american stuff, and what's left? Pretty much all of it.

They're also references I've said multiple times are subject to ongoing change. For example, I have the legion's current battlecry as "remember the alamo!" because I couldn't think of anything and threw it in their as a placeholder.

>that you're not really used to doing something like this
This is what I do for a living. I write. My frustration and defensiveness is probably coming more from the fact that I'm used to working in a more professional format. For the vast majority of my work, if there's something wrong with it, an editor/supervisor will tell me EXACTLY what's wrong with it and why. Here, I'm getting all kinds of mixed messages. I'm simultaneously taking it too seriously but not taking it seriously enough, I'm too American despite not being American at all.

I'm very used to other's judgement, I'm just also used to working with people who literally get paid to be really, *really* good at criticizing people's work.

>Don't conflate posters
Yes, sorry, you're totally right in that regard. I primarily work with logical systems and numbers (hence my entering the project by starting with numbers), so I'm good at following one long train of reasoning or logic to the exclusion of all others. I've been mixing up people's criticisms and getting frustrated when I try to apply them because they're directly contradictory.

>Work on it in the thread.
Again, professional habits spilling over into amateur projects. I'm used to finishing something before it ever sees anyone else's eyes.

>Ideas are no good if they stay in your head.
But that's what I'm used to doing, sadly.

>Are they mindless weapons, or warrior idealists? How do they see war? And more importantly, WHY do they see it that way?
This was actually one of the more fun ideas I've been building to in my work thus far, because it's one of the few areas where warhamer directly parallels to real life. What happens when a massive economy and government devoted to war suddenly have no wars to fight? Just look at the multi-trillion dollar juggernaught we call the American Military Industrial Complex.

I haven't had time for a deep concept dive yet (trying to stay focused on basic plots and backstory for the moment) but I look forward to it immensely. That's actually the reason why I'm writing their stellar empire to never fall, and the legion to never retreat to the Eye. You get to see what a chaos Maccrage would look like (or rather, how ongoing war could push a democratic, pluralistic society away from their roots, especially if that thread were omnipresent and fractious in nature (the warp, the imperium, etc).

Question for you. I get the impression that you're Golgy's OG writefag, so I feel I should ask. In some of the art, I see Golgothos depicted as having a Castraferrum chassis, and in others (and in his 1d4chan page) he has a Leviathan chassis. Care to comment? My original calculations for his tabletop balance are off if he's rocking a boxnought, so I'll want to rewrite that if I was mistaken the first time.

>NONE of the concepts I have absolutely NEED to be american

So just do that then. No Columbia. No totally-not-the-aircraft-carrier-Yorktown (Or the reference to the Battle of Yorktown, whichever the "fortress" bit refers to). No references to democracy, just let them *be* a democracy without drawing attention to it. No "modified" American names, no references to presidents or military leaders, none of that.

And then you'll probably be fine, your story can stand on its own merits without just being a bunch of references.

Thanagor Vorklex, Crownless King of the Mornagar Stellar Compact sounds a lot better than Worge Geoshington, Commander in Chief of Colombia, or whatever, you dig?

And then they can still be Marines with a democratic/libertarian ideological bent, who love big guns and big personal heroism, who often leap before they look, but oftentimes still have the raw courage and fortitude to make it through to the other side. They can be oft-bedeviled by filthy xenos hiding amongst civilian populations, they can be equipped with massive amounts of weaponry they don't need nor use well (because the ForgeWorld politicians said the guns had to be made). They can move with confidence, but often bicker amongst themselves far more than other Legions.

They may even not respect their Primarch very much.

And none of that needs to be American at all. And if you're determined to make this Legion, then I think that's the proper way to go about it.

>So just do that then. No Columbia.
Why? No one will answer this question. Just. Fucking. WHY? Sorry if I seem exasperated, but I just don't see why it's a bad thing; it doesn't hamper anyone else, why would it hamper me? Warhammer is absolutely PACKED with that kind of shit. It fits the setting just fine to overtly lean on another culture's history. Why is space elves, space stalinists, space marines, space WWII, space WWI, space prussians, space mongols, space vikings, space vampires, and space orcs all cool, but space Americans (Americans, the culture that actually spends more time and money on space travel than anyone else) is going too far?

Okay, maybe I should tone down some of the direct american references, but using the western culture has all kinds of potential, moreso than many existing factions.

>just being a bunch of references
This is another point that frustrates me to know end. My legion concept has barely any references in it. Yes, as some have pointed out, its references are very loud, but the actual events that take place stand on their own.

>Naming things.
The primarch name is actually based on an obscure statistic and a pun.

Statistic: Thomas was one of the most common names for a government official in the 1800's US, surpassed only by John.

Pun: in his origin story, his first act on coming to his homeworld is to slam into a structure/knight with his gestation pod, blowing it up, as if it were a many megaton explosion. Megaton? Magton? Heh...

Yeah, it's shit, I know.

Honestly, America just isn't 40K enough.

>Why is space elves, space stalinists, space marines, space WWII, space WWI, space prussians, space mongols, space vikings, space vampires, and space orcs all cool, but space Americans (Americans, the culture that actually spends more time and money on space travel than anyone else) is going too far?
This is literally the first funny thing you've said today.

The fuck is going on?

We're sperging out. Join us.

I sincerely hope this is a joke, but I'm tired as fuck so I can't tell.

Well, you might like Lumey a bit more, then. I'm just generally concerned with "do what you're doing better," he's usually more specific.

Also some of this. The Iron Rangers are actually Iroquois Marines. The Scale Bearers are Plains Indians (That actually started with the original Tiran, I just picked them up after he left because Tiran was a good dude and Space Marines riding fucking dinosaurs). But those are window dressings. Make a defining culture around them, but directly drawing attention to what it is can be harmful in the long run.

New guy is being given crap because his references are too obvious, then there was almost a flame war because people were getting defensive. Pull up a chair and join me.

I mean the names just aren't 40K

Pic related

It was changed to a Leviathan after the model was released and everyone thought 'This looks cooler then a Castraferrum, plus the Emperor made the Leviathan Himself, so it makes sense he would use a Leviathan for Golgothos.'

Could we not what? Watch the madness unfold? Dealing with criticisms and trolls is probably one of the hallmarks of the project.

Okay folks, how bout this?

>Change the chapter name to Liberators
Fits their legion culture well, isn't a direct reference to americam Credit to Zorg for the name.

>Rework naming conventions within the legion
I think I'll work them to fit the naming conventions of other legions, to further reflect their status as an immigrant legion.

Things I won't change (and why):

>The Primarch's name
Because it's a stupid pun and I have a bad sense of humor

>The focus on democracy
Because it's absolutely central in their interactions with the imperium. Removing democracy and independence from the Liberators/Sons of Comlumbia/MURICAmarines would be like removing secrecy from the Dark Angels or removing Heroism from the space wolves. It isn't window dressing, it's integral to who they are.

>Being a giant fucking military industrial complex
Again, important to the legion culture. They're supposed to be a (kind of) rags to riches (back to rags) story.

Give me some input.

This madness ends now.

The issue I see with Columbia as a name is that it's exactly what you would expect the American faction in any future setting to call their realm. The name Son's of Columbia has that problem and the additional dimension of being in line with a theme that has been utilized enough in the AU already, that being the legion named after something in-universe (Heralds and Eyes) and also we have the Sons of the Emperor.

Not to mention the fact that you're squandering the potential of the idea by pigeonholing yourself as the "American Legion." Not that your guilty of this, but it can come of as a bit obvious and that had the double issue of clashing with the setting and being either too blatant or even somewhat patronizing to the reader.

The concept of the diverse groups within a larger whole, each given over-normal levels of leeway which could lead to a bickering "congress" of various commanders is awesome. I like the idea of diverse specialists and I stated in that I like the idea for its potential to produce a lot of interesting warbands. I think that might be something to focus on. You have references to the disparate coming together, I'd like to see the focus on these guys. The independent commanders of the various companies and chapters would naturally be more important in a legion like this and that could be a great way to start. Say you have a near tribal level of primitive cavalrymen that live and die on their rhinoceri and are led by Abuni Ak'Rhdar
instead of Teodor and his Riders Rough.

Attaboy josman, let go of the rage.