What sort of charactet archetypes or concepts can be related with rapiers?

Very true. The Rapier is a very solidly designed weapon with a long history of use for duels.

Most European noble-types. In most fiction the rapier is the European analogue to the katana in that it's the weapon that the super-duper skilled use to deflect bullets and do other unrealistic shit.

For the single rapier, or rapier & poniard, they are imperfect & insufficient weapons: and especially in service of the prince, when men shall join together, what service can soldier do with a rapier, a childish toy wherewith a man can do nothing but thrust, nor that neither, by reason of the length, and in every moving when blows are a dealing, for lack of a hilt is in danger to have his hand or arm cut off, or his head cloven. And for wards and grips, they have none, neither can any of these fine rapier men, for lack of use, tell how to strike a sound blow.

The short sword, and sword and dagger, are perfect good weapons, and especially in service of the prince. What a brave weapon is a short sharp light sword, to carry, to draw, to be nimble withal, to strike, to cut, to thrust both strong and quick. And what a good defence is a strong single hilt, when men are clustering and hurling together, especially where variety of weapons are, in their motions to defend the hand, head, face, and bodies, from blows, that shall be given sometimes with swords, sometimes with two handed swords, battle axes, halberds, or black bills, and sometimes men shall be so near together, they shall have no space, scarce to use the blades of their swords below their waist, then their hilts (their hands being aloft) defend from the blows their hands, arms, heads, faces and bodies. Then they lay on, having the use of blows and grips, by force of their arms with their hilts, strong blows, at the head, face, arms, bodies, and shoulders, and many times hurling together, scope is given to turn down their points, with violent thrusts at the faces and bodies, by reason of the shortness of their blades, to the mighty annoyance, discomfort, and great destruction of their enemies. One valiant man with a sword in his hand, will do better service, than ten Italians, or Italianated with their rapiers.

>and the tip of a katana is wide and blunt
No they aren't, katana thrust just fine.

>lso, to note, most rapiers can still cut
Whether or not a rapier can effectively cut comes down to length. The longer a rapier, the slower the cut, the less optimal it is to cut. Even shorter rapiers can't perform very deep cuts, and cutting was more used to frustrate and tire an opponent than used to perform a killing blow.

That sounds like George Silver, the professional contrarian.

Rogues

I feel like there is a big miconceptiom about rapiers and those diddly little stabbing sticks called foils that are used for modern day fencing.

A rapier is still plenty sword, it's just thinner. The smaller surface area makes it more effective at thrusting but you can still whack your opponent upside the head if you really had to.

It's not the sword you want to take into a crowded, busy melee, but it's length and light weight make it an ideal for any 1v1 situation.

>Rapiers are probably the best sword you could choose for a proper sword duel.

He's right though, particularly since it allows you to fill your off hand with a companion weapon. It has the length of a two handed sword, used with one hand, ad allows you to carry a secondary weapon like a dagger or even a pistol.

Rapiers are literally the superior swords. They are fast, light, and very maneuverable. I am not particularly strong myself but I have beaten at fencing multiple men who weighted over 200 pounds of pure muscle. Rapiers can kill fucking anything, and it's a simple flick to slash your throat. I think in D&D they should deal 1d8 damage and have a 15-20 critical range BY DEFAULT. And on a crit you immediately start losing 5 hp per round until you die. No save, only magical healing can stop your cut throat from bleeding.

Also, if you dual-wield rapiers, they are extremely effective, because no opponent can dodge two swords at once. Sure it works in D&D cause D&D is an unrealistic fuckshit of a system. But in real life, it would be more like GURPS, where you can only dodge once. Basically in D&D dual-wielding should give you two attacks but your opponent's AC is automatically 10 against the second attack. REGARDLESS of armor because a rapier can easily be slid through a slit in the armor to kill the opponent.

Rapiers are literally just swords optimized for unarmored duels.

They aren't any better than any other sword outside of a specific context.

>didn't like rapiers
>therefore was obviously opposed to everything popular

Hot logic there, Giuseppe.

George Silver had a good understanding of the body and measure and all that jazz, but his bias against rapiers was pure anti-continental prejudice more than a fully reasoned opinion.

Word my serf nigga.

You forgot to tell us about how the Allies during WW2 would shoot the Italians with Rapiers first, intimidated by their stabbing prowess.

Rogues, Swashbucklers, Nobles, Duelists, Vigilante, High-Ranking Military Officer. Really anything other than plate-wearing tank-men.

>What sort of charactet archetypes or concepts can be related with archetypical rogue weapon?
Dunno, OP

No reason to use a rapier over an estoc

Why are katana more reasonable in cyberpunk than other swords?

desu, because cyberpunk was heavily influenced by the growing prominence of Asian culture and economic power in the 80s/90s. It's more about aesthetic and setting than practicality.

It depends on your tech and culture level. If you're roughly into the 1600's equivalent, than tons of people would be using them. Duelists, soldiers, body guards, nobles, veterans....

>Is there a situation where the rapier is a good to optimal choice?

Yes, any situation where you and your opponent are unarmored.

>Even fucking katanas have their niche
Yes, getting wrecked horribly by Euros with rapiers to the point that first, Euros were banned from carrying swords in Japan, followed by the banning of namban (foreign) swords, because the samurai were importing rapiers and still killing eachother too fast.

>They make a reasonable amount of sense in things like cyberpunk. But rapiers? I just don't see when you'd pick one over other swords.

Actually, smallswords and rapiers make MORE sense in a cyberpunk setting as they are more maneuverable and compact in dense city settings. They are also popular in Dune and Starwars used to have "lightfoils" which were lightsaber knockoffs used by non force sensitives.

The heavy rapier was a war sword.

Yeah, Silver simply didn't like continentals and felt that anything less than an English backsword was for pussies based on that metric.

>Cutting

We're supposed to be owned mostly by Japanese corps by now. GIBSON LIED TO US!

Why would you need to cut?If you can name one single situation that cutting would be useful in, I'll admit I'm wrong.

Any situation where your point is past engagement.

We close, and are past point engagement with me using a rapier, and you using a estoc. We are at contact, without room to generate impact. I have a sharp blade and a draw or push cut, you have nothing.

There is a reason the rapier continued as a weapon, and the estoc phased out, user.

Just fuckin smack them with it then, blunt is better than cutting anyway

>blunt is better than cutting anyway
No it isn't.

For one, broken bones are a lot easier to treat than severed muscles and open wounds. Even more so in a Medieval-Early Modern setting.

It would require you to disengage enough to generate impact, which I would not need and would put you at an immediate disadvantage.

You obviously don't fence. The estoc is a specialty weapon that phased out, compared to a more versatile weapon that continued for a reason.

The amount he would have to disengage from contact to generate enough blunt impact to hurt or even throw me off, would be negated by the fact that a cut is just pulling or pushing the blade, which even a superficial cut would cause disruption.

The only viable option would be to disengage in a retreat into a viable defensive threat, and hope to out pace a cut or reposet.

Couldn't you just...Stab the other guy and kill him quickly?

Cary Elwes.

I'd would fairly comfortable saying that in single combat against any other sword, a rapierist should win almost every time. Rapiers and their decendants, smallswords, essentially make up the tail end of sword design, followed only by the cavalry sabre, which eventually ended up morphing back into what is essentially a smallsword/rapier again.

Reach/penetration is THE real-life meta for combat. Spears, pike blocks, rapiers, muskets,cartridge weapons, modern small arms, artillery, aircraft, ICBMS/Drones. Killing technology always favors being as far away as possible and using the simplest trajectory you can.

>The longer the rapier, the slower the cut
Armchair fighter detected. Its called a push/pull cut and it's exactly as fast as a thrust, because it essentially IS one. In fact, the longer the blade, the easier it is to do this. You're thinking of a chop or slashing like movement, which is possible, but not nearly as useful with a rapier.

When people say a rapier can cut, they don't normally mean with a swing so much as with a push.

He's completely right though, rapiers were specifically designed to defeat people fighting with two-handed (long) swords at their conception.

>Its called a push/pull cut
Every experiment I've seen in push/pull cuts have shown negligible results. It's a technique defeated by the material of a not even particularly thick shirt.

>posts Guts

Serpico used a rapier and could threaten him, he was one of the few human opponents whom he had to take seriously.

>Slashing is better against material than a pull/push cut
>Whacking something cut resistant with a blade is more effective than quite literally the same motion used by every implement used to cut such materials (shears, scissors, FUCKING GUILLOTINES)
I'm genuinely curious what experiments you've seen this in.

While you make a large movement to try and swing at your target with enough force to try and break a collar bone or rib at BEST, all they have to do is apply a pound of pressure against your flesh with their wrist and step backwards (or forwards) and your jugular opens up.

Depends. Who invented the rapier in your setting and when, OP?

In my setting the rapier has been around in some way or another for a while, starting as a take on the shortspear in the "bronze age" and developing alongside the Gladius with the not-romans.

>Slashing is better against material than a pull/push cut
I don't think you know what a 'pull cut' actually is, or much about the general terminology in 'HEMA' and their application.

>ll they have to do is apply a pound of pressure against your flesh with their wrist and step backwards (or forwards) and your jugular opens up.
You really don't know what you're talking about if you're the 'pull cut' guy.

All you really need to know is that Rapiers became popular in the early modern period after the end of the middle ages when other forms of sword became less popular.

They are more or less the peak of western sword design, and the ideal sidearm for somebody who uses a pike or musket as their primary weapon.

...

What the fuck is this guard, whore-prima?

youtube.com/watch?v=9qJBGlChcXU

I'll trust Matt Easton on this one.

underrated post

youtube.com/watch?v=n4O6uJJL0oo

According to this video, a fight between a Duelist with a Rapier and a Samurai with a Katana ends with both people dead.

The Rapier guy stabs the Katana guy, who then chops the Rapier guy's head off, before bleeding to death from his punctured lung.

UNLESSS the rapier guy has a parrying dagger, in which case he blocks the Katana slash and then stabs the katana guy in the shoulder, forcing him to drop his sword.

I guess that sort of makes sense, but aren't most rapier thrusts also made in defensive positions? Isn't that like... the whole point?

Fighter planes

> Not using a sword and a shield instead of an off-hand weapon

Pistol is a solid fucking choice though.

But two weapon fighting is a gimmick.

> Intimidated by Italians

It's greentext, not a bad trip on acid.

I thought it was a poor callback to the old Katana copy-pasta.

Based Matt. Are there any other good channels like his? Please don't recommend plebshit like Lindybeige or Skallagrim.

Because Serpico wasn't a retard and would use the environment against Guts, which almost no other fighter that Guts faced ever bothered to try.
In an open field Serpico knew he'd be six different kinds of fucked against Guts, which is why all of the duels they had are in places where Guts couldn't bring his blade to full blow, and they both knew it.

Still expecting Serpico to be the token "oh shit" death when Kentaro Miura is ready to get depressing again

Not in rapier.Main gauche seems to be waaaaay more popular than buckler in my experience.

Knyght Errant is a good source on armor.

youtube.com/watch?v=aUMfjHANRVw

Was just about to post this.

Why is Lindy so cringy? I mean, Skall is cringy but he at least is willing to admit he's just into sword stuff because it's fun. Lindy seems like, "please don't touch me you don't have a degree and my sweater is much soggier than it looks" cringy.

>Why is Lindy so cringy?
Because Lloyd is incredibly overconfident and condescending about topics he knows little or nothing about. Once you see past the British accent he's a fool.

I think it has a lot to do with how Lindy comes off as the end all be all final say on things, which I doubt it's his intentions but it's just how he presents himself.
That and many of his claims are unsourced and are just from him eyeballing it, which ruins a lot of his credibility.

He can be at least a little entertaining but his videos on Veeky Forums stuff make me cringe more than anything.

cleaver with futuristic materials

I've got a friend who praises him to high heaven, and more than once we've gotten into long-winded arguments over shit (Spears used in 1v1, heavy horse, ect) that would have ended way earlier if Lindildo wasn't such a vapid shitter. Dude's a half-aware meth-fiend from the way he talks.

Have fun with your piddly cuts not going through any sort of armor at all while I simply hit your little sewing needle out of the way and then impale you

I had this in mind with my lesser noble character, I figured 'hey he's a noble so a cavalry role would be good, going to need a lance too, and so he became a cavalier. Eventually I found the limits of a mounted character and having to juggle weapons, so I switched to a greatsword that I also use as a lance.

If you like sword and (old) shield there's Roland Warzecha
youtube.com/user/warzechas

Maxime Chouinard for Irish and Asian stuff
youtube.com/channel/UCpvAbUiYd6XX4hSAm4DFtIg

Dave Rawlings for pretty much every still in Europe, Tattoos and moustache
youtube.com/user/LondonLongsword

And Martin Fabian's italian rapier series if you want to actually know how to use a rapier according to a crazy odd italian exiled in scandinavia.
youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4bdKIpRnFJUb0ZEfXn1xZQyodMRp5Q1S

>THE real-life meta for combat

That sentence is fucking terrible but also accurate.

10/10 we should both kill ourselves.

>I'd would fairly comfortable saying that in single combat against any other sword, a rapierist should win almost every time

You won't feel comfortable after the ghost of George Silver haunts you for that belief.

>It's greentext, not a bad trip on acid.

Good call

Literally all of swordfighting is defensive. Swords are a very defensive weapon in general.

Have fun walking around in armour like a crazed fool while I may gallivant around the city in the proper attire of an honest gentleman.

>Pull cut
I have no idea why this triggers me so much, but it does. In all my years of historic fencing and in all my books, its always been refered to as a "draw cut".

Lost: one pair of sides. Reward if found.

You're letting modern opinion taint history. Like the French, the Italians used to be badass.

>yfw Thibault doesn't really cancel Capo Ferro
youtube.com/watch?v=wCg0pqX-y3s

>Literally all of swordfighting is defensive.
Nope, sometimes a good attack is a good defense... or crazy enough to work.
youtube.com/watch?v=YVSONNESfyE

Jap swordfighting doesn't count. They have some aversion to parrying.

>
>You're letting modern opinion taint history. Like the French, the Italians used to be badass.

Not in WW2.

Oh so it's going from "all of swordfighting" to "all of it but all of the japanese's" now? As if "japanese swordfighting" was one clear thing for starters.

>They have some aversion to parrying.
Nonsense once more, here's just one of the many classical styles, skip at 2:25
youtube.com/watch?v=X2A3HvOgvdQ
there's three parries shown here (thrust, straight cut, reverse cut).

The problem with what we know about Japanese swordfighting is that most of the remaining traditions are heavily ritualised. Considering that samurai haven't really been a thing since Shiroyama, most of what we see seems to be their practice stuff. Do we have any sources for what their actual fight to the death system was like?

>You're letting modern opinion taint history.
>cites WW2 to disprove
thanks for proving the point.

WWII is modern. Rapier usage is not.

>WWII is modern. Rapier usage is not.

God you're right, I'm an idiot, I have no idea where I got that from

>You forgot to tell us about how the Allies during WW2 would shoot the Italians with Rapiers first, intimidated by their stabbing prowess.

Oh wait, that's where I got it from. You're the idiot, not me. What a relief.

>Or just a professional duelist.
That would completely depend on the rules of duel in the setting. A rapier in a 14th century judicial duel would have been suicide.

>Rapiers and their decendants, smallswords, essentially make up the tail end of sword design
That's wrong you turd. Sword design (design in general really) reacts to the context, it's not a straight progression from best to worst. Rapiers and smallswords were a reaction to armour fading away and swords being mostly used in a civilian environment.
I'll take a greatsword over a rapier in a duel everyday.

Yeah, no. Anybody who's fought any rapier vs. saber (cavalry sabers were about the same length as katanas, but used one-handed which gives added reach) knows that's crap. Katana guy won't get in range, rapier guy can stab and withdraw, then stab again and withdraw, and so on until bleeding and lack of lung wears down katana guy. Really the only credible way it ends with both dead is if katana guy deliberately suicide attacks (which I guess isn't implausible for a samurai, but still).

In many cases that might not help either, because a skilled rapier fencer can often use his sword to strike and close off the chopping line at the same time -- even moreso if the point's stuck in the opponent's body, making the blade a stable line of steel. Some manuals advocate actually running the opponent through up to the hilt once struck so that you're never within range of his sword until you can reach to grapple with him, an impaled enemy (maybe ending him with your dagger if you have one, or in the case of a samurai you could take away his wakizashi and cut his shit up with that).

Alte Herren is really good if you want to dive deep into rapier in particular.

>That and many of his claims are unsourced and are just from him eyeballing it, which ruins a lot of his credibility.
No joke. My favorite is his video where he meets some HEMA guys and derides a feder because he thinks it's supposed to have been a weapon, and scoffs at its likely effectiveness in combat.

The guy tells him straight that it's a historically accurate trainer, and he just blows right the fuck through it on the express train to smug country.

itt: Rapiers deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

Koryu weren't all for samurai though, besides, Japan kept their sword fighting techniques somehow practical up until WW2, there were still kenjutsu teachings for the officers updated up to 1944. Besides, there's not direct contradiction between ritualized teachings and practical efficiency.

>actual fight to the death system
What do you mean by that? Most of the deadly fightings, especially during the late 18th early 19th weren't organized combat or duels, there was no "systems".

>Main gauche seems to be waaaaay more popular than buckler in my experience.
Yeah, bucklers don't work well against rapiers in general.

Usually, bucklers are great to defend against cut-centric weapons while daggers are good to defend against thrust-centric swords. Hence why the typical combo is broadsword and buckler on one part and rapier and dagger on the other.

Obviously there are some exceptions like Silver or the Bolognese who also have cutting swords used with daggers for instance.

>Usually, bucklers are great to defend against cut-centric weapons while daggers are good to defend against thrust-centric swords.
Exactly. I will say I think a dagger's better to protect against a cutting sword than a buckler is against a thrust-focused one. Especially crab-claw style ones, they seem to catch cuts better IME.

What are greatswords for 200, Alex?