If a player came to you and asked if they could play as a construct. Either say, a golem of some sort with a personality imbued by magic or a cyborg with an independent AI, depending on the setting, would you let them?
If yes, would it be under any special conditions or with certain handicaps to compensate for their arguably overpowered nature?
You assume playing a cyborg/construct/whatever would be overpowered in the games I'd run.
The issue would be more about clashing with the established lore of the setting, if there was one.
You mean a warforged?
They need no food, no rest, are extremely strong and extremely hardy. Can't drown, can't be poisoned. It's hard to imagine any setting where they wouldn't be considered overpowered as player characters.
I didn't like D&D's approach with warforged, because it doesn't make sense for a construct to gain additional hit points, or improve the strength or resilience of its body. Unless these benefits are granted entirely by supernatural forces.
My take would be that a construct-based character would have static hit points and bodily feats, but it could improve its intelligence and learn new skills. I don't know how I could balance this out with players who are capable of leveling up conventionally, because a construct might be outranked in the long-run. Maybe the construct character could have a considerable amount of resilience from the start, and no effective need for armor.
If it fit the tone of the game, I'd let them, and figure out a way to make it work given the system. In general, though, the advantages of artificial life honestly aren't a big deal in most RPG's, they're still vulnerable to most major dangers people might face.
>They need no food, no rest, are extremely strong and extremely hardy.
These are all highly questionable. A lot of constructs require some kind of fuel or sustenance and their stats would determine their strength and durability. Even machines benefit from some shutdown time, for components to be maintained and for data to defragmented and self repair.
The only real indisputable advantages (which still might not be true in some cases) are can't drown and can't be poisoned, which are marginal at best and can easily be countered with the vulnerabilities a construct/machine has which living things lack.
And this as well I didn't really think about that, but a construct would definitely be immune to poison, disease, age and other biological hazards. It might be a balanced tradeoff to have a character who effectively can't level up, but is practically immortal as well.
> "I want to play a character who's an artificial humanoid. He's looking for his master. Like a wizard clay golem, sort of."
> "Cool, use the rules for the Dwarf race, to represent being slow and blocky. If any spells affect constructs, they'll affect you the same way."
That player went from level 1 to level 12 for that game before retiring. We joked that whenever he retrieved something from anywhere other than his pack, it was from a compartment in his chest a la Bender from Futurama.
He once kept a toddler in there for a month.
Since when has it ever made sense that gaining worldly experience makes a person capable of resisting more grievous bodily harm? You are unnecessarily complicating a gameplay abstraction for the sake of realism that does not exist.
>They need no food, no rest,
Only relevant if the game is actually about supplies and travel.
Also assumes that constructs don't need fuel, which may or may not be even more difficult to acquire.
>are extremely strong and extremely hardy.
Assumption you're making about the system. Also assumes that the construct wouldn't be paying for that strength and hardiness like any other character.
>Can't drown, can't be poisoned.
May or may not be "overpowered."
>It's hard to imagine any setting where they wouldn't be considered overpowered as player characters.
GURPS. Mutants & Masterminds. Exalted. Fantasycraft. Just off the top of my head.
>I didn't like D&D's approach with warforged, because it doesn't make sense for a construct to gain additional hit points, or improve the strength or resilience of its body. Unless these benefits are granted entirely by supernatural forces.
Except hit points are an abstract measure of your ability to keep fighting. It makes no less sense for a construct to gain them than it does for a person.
If a construct is animated the same way a golem or an undead creature is, one could assume the construct is perpetually linked with a practically infinite source of magical energy originating within some other plane.
>one could assume the construct is perpetually linked with a practically infinite source of magical energy originating within some other plane.
Sure, one "could," but why would you? D&D's model of how golems/constructs/undead work is no more or less valid than the billion other interpretations available.
That isn't really a point. It's just asserting a single scenario where you aren't wrong. And the obvious thing for a GM to do is say 'No, it doesn't work like that'.
A construct is made from solid, unchanging materials - presumably metals. An organic being is constantly experiencing cellular regeneration. With a construct, sustaining damage doesn't do anything to make the body more resilient, in contrast to an organic character whose wounds become calloused, or who actually has muscles that can be developed.
Are you seriously arguing that callouses and strength training will make the difference between being splattered across the wall by a dragon's claws or not?
>That isn't really a point.
Yes it is. This is exactly how a number of magical devices work. Why does a construct necessarily have to involve some other explanation? Maybe for balance, if you think there needs to be an additional downside to playing such a character.
>This is exactly how a number of magical devices work.
And a number of other magical devices work differently.
Even in D&D not every magical item is inexhaustible. Hell, even in D&D not every magical CONSTRUCT is inexhaustible.
I would just have them use the rules for warforged.
When you consider only the positives, of course it seems overpowered.
Some downsides to 'True' constructs:
No Morale Bonuses of any type and immune to beneficial mental effects.
Can't really artificially inflate HP due to static Con score.
Requires magic to heal unless the construct is of a particular type.
Can't be resurrected by ANYTHING.
And, really, could they really use potions? Digestion doesn't likely exist for most of them.
How about a setting where EVERYONE'S A ROBOT. Humans are gone, extinct as far as the machines know due to using up most of the planets resources and descending into chaos and eventual nuclear war. They left behind simple warbots and industrial bots with sentient AI's that eventually managed to improve themselves to a point of having real personalities of their own. Instead of food they require charging to not shut down. They need occasional maintenance and multiplay by making new robots (at a government approved rate to avoid overpopulation and due to scarce resources) all in all, their society works a lot like a normal human one that came before theirs.
Except one day, spaceships arrive carrying human soldiers and scientists who either fled the destruction of their world or were already on off-planet colonies when it happened, and have lived there since. They are intent on retaking the planet and have no respect for the robots who have taken over and disregard their claim to the planet they have called their home for hundreds of years after humanity killed itself off. As neither side is willing to give, inevitably a war breaks out. The robots want to keep their planet, the humans want to "reconquer it" as the birthplace and symbol of humanity.
The players are all robots.
Assuming the PC construct is sapient and capable of learning why couldn't it learn to use its power more efficiently and thus improve its stats? Also it might well be capable of modifying its structure to again enhance its abilities.
>Can't really artificially inflate HP due to static Con score.
See above as to why this is dumb, and most of those are on the same level. Unnecessary complexity chasing after 'realism' which isn't present in the system in the first place.
In a setting with enough ambient magic to allow for dragons, why not?
Look up Engine Heart. It's a very early version of the setting you describe.
>"Me lift heavy stuff, me get big muscles and can lift even HEAVIER stuff!"
Pretty sure that's how it works, user.
A construct does not have muscles, it has a set amount of resistance dictated by its engineering. How does the quality of said engineering improve over time or with use? Does a machine turbine get stronger the more you use it? Of course not.
At this point though, I strongly suspect you're just trolling me.
Well, I have actually included a race of sentient golems in my setting. They have a really theological bent, I'm pretty proud of them and would love to have a PC play as one.
>it's magic lol
If you're going to invoke "it's magic lol" for why organic HP increases so much, it applies to constructs just as well.
Yeah they're called Warforged in this setting
>How does the quality of said engineering improve over time or with use?
It doesn't.
The construct's ability to use it does. You know, almost like it's EXPERIENCING things and learning from those experiences dramatically increases its ability to fight and stay alive.
You know, like how it works for organic characters.
>No Morale Bonuses of any type and immune to beneficial mental effects.
If the construct is sentient, thinking and has a personality that would allow it to form bonds and enjoy things like music, or even compose it. Why then would it not benefit from morale bonuses or subject to mental effects, positive or negative?
And resurrection would just come down to rebuilding them, as long as they aren't completely destroyed.
Use another race template.
Remove the need for breathing etc, but enforce hilarious construct limits (certain doors wont open for them, even thick ice will crack under their weight)
It is a pointless distinction that adds nothing to the game. A character option that starts strong but has neutered progression is fundamentally worthless. At best it'll be a nightmare to balance, dominating the early game and then becoming irrelevant, at worst it won't function as wanted or expected anywhere. You gain literally nothing from it. It is stupid.
>Literally the first entry in the Bestiary about Constructs.
>No Constitution score. Any DCs or other statistics that rely on a Constitution score treat a construct as having a score of 10 (no bonus or penalty).
Congrats, you've successfully made yourself look like a idiot. Any fort save that affects objects will fuck a construct royally.
It's not 'chasing realism,' all of those are just a part of the rules, you fucking cheating munchkin.
I imagine a robot doing curls and deadlifts and complaining that it can't increase its gains.
What a terrible fate.
Way to miss the fucking point
Pathfinder android race.
>4e
Ez, I just tell them to play either a warforged or a shardmind and that's it.
Heck, my latest PC is a shardmind wizard refluffed into a robot with a wide array of gadgets like flamethrowers or remote-controlled drones in various compartments all over the body. Pic very related.
Except it explicitly doesn't, if you bothered to look up the rules. Constructs get bonus HP for sizes; otherwise, they're basically just modified people with some negatives and some positives.
You ARE arguing that Constructs would be overpowered, yes? Because I'm not, and I'm beginning to wonder if this conversation has any importance beyond what basically amounts to autofellatio.
I imagine a robot realizing it can stagger the output of its amplifying capacitors and bypassing the safety limiters on its OS and gain strength beyond what its factory specs say it is capable of.
>You ARE arguing that Constructs would be overpowered, yes?
No, I'm the one arguing for "people attach too much goddamn baggage to constructs out of some weird desire to appeal to realism (which is just code for 'but that's how D&D's always done it!')."
I'm and
Do you have any more robot tokens?
I could use them for my mech game.
Sorry, no.
I only make tokens when I need them.
Any setting where you dont hamstring player race choice.
Those things are comparable with an ent, or a skeleton, or a hive mind, or a harpy.
Well, that's one more than I had so thanks anyway.
>their arguably overpowered nature?
Use a system that takes those "overpowered" parts into consideration.
Any system where you have to pay for those advantages is fine.
All humans should have the same strength score and that score should be Strength : Human
My current campaign has a warforged PC, so... yes.
THIS
God damn. Why does no one understand that your character is just getting better at staying alive. Not growing additional hearts or turning super Saiyan.
Because of healing magic, basically.
This entire problem can be directly traced back to cure wounds spells. And fatigue being an entirely different system.
>And fatigue being an entirely different system.
So's bleeding.
Or any kind of "normal" result of being shank'd.
We're not playing D&D so anything "overpowered" actually costs chargen points and there's no dumb-ass ivory tower design regarding race or class.
Yeah, if people had been raised on a sane wounds system rather than meat points, i feel like this problem would never have happened
Hit points are a great abstract system, just as long as you're not so autistic that you think they're meat points.
Some things you have to abstract for the sake of a game.
In a fight, mental and morale effects generally matter because they determine how much effort a person is willing to put in the circumstances, making them either slack/give up or go beyond their usual limits through sheer force of will and pumping adrenaline. Since "effort" isn't really a thing for a construct that can't sense pain or exhaustion, motivation doesn't really have any effect on its ability to act.
Why would constructs be hardy, they may be quite fragile.
Yes i play GURPS, this is incredibly easy. I had a metal golem with a rocket fist in one campaign and one of my characters is gonna be an Assasin Droid in my upcoming star wars campaign.
they don't heal normally. they gotta use gold to heal up. getting better stats is done though taking better items and 'breaking them down and absorbing them to get stronger'