What's the BBEG's motivation

>Hey, it's the same when you toil away night and day to give them a good plot

Railroad them, you mean.

Fuck off, you're not a novel writer, you're in the game because you need to judge how the world reacts to PCs. You provide entertainment, and you're only here because we haven't figured out how to replace GM with computer yet.

So shove your complicated plots and description of fuckoff forests, shit shoals and crappy cities up your ass and give PCs what they want.

Sometimes, it's impossible not to see the link. When the GM is bespectacled, socially shy and considers himself and intellectual, while the main villain is bespectacled, socially shy until he became an ubermensch when his sorcerer powers developed and now uses them to Charm woman and build an army of loyal followers, I can put two and two together. Obviously, the DM is inserting himself into this guy, to make him all tragically noble and misunderstood.

This is why I made sure he died squealing like a pig, because I wanted to see the GM's dreams die right in front of him. When I told the villain to 'Get fucked, faggot, why don't you eat shit and die?' you could see his face crumble.

I've played in enough RPGs to know how to 'steer' the plot slightly, and it's an important skill. I want the DM, personally, to know that the jig is up.

You are both assholes.

>t. Entitled GM

Jesus please be b8

It brings me an endless amount of satisfaction. Like, when the BBEG's waifu went "He's a good man, that's why I fled my home to bear his child. Please understand...He only means well. In his heart, he means well" I didn't go "Oh, I understand."

I went "WHORE!" and hit her in the face with a mailed fist. I knew the GM was getting off on this, and I wasn't going to let him have the story of a heroically tormented sorcerer-king like Raistilin. No, the story is going to be "A jumped-up little shit was killed by a band of heroes."

And when the villain dooms the world right before killing himself, laughing his heart out the entire time, will you be willing to handle the shame of having your kill stolen?

Fucking hell you'd be a good BBEG

I refer you to Wakfu, where this was indeed the case and he made a compelling villain whom you could truly feel for in the end.

To be fair, I'm not stupid. I only did the humiliation thing *after* we beat the shit out of him. DMs are less likely to go 'rocks fall, everyone dies' out of sheer spite when it's clear that you've won - no takebacks - and it's too late to pull off a last-minute save.

Actually, the story will be "A group of jumped-up little shits were killed by their own stupidity".

GM is a title.

>You entitled entitled.

You could volunteer to GM. Maybe he would enjoy fucking your shit up for variety.

Nox had a solid motivation though. He wasn't just doing shit because "lol so ~crazy~". He was trying to save his dead family. The fact that his methods were monstrous is what made him a villain.

This is why you tell him, before you kill him:

> "You'll never see them again, because you're going to Hell. You'll rot forever, and you know what they're feeling right now, as they watch you from Heaven? Shame."

Not all the plot is railroading, and definitely, the GM is not a fucking service just so you can live your power fantasy. He's there to have fun, just as you are, so stop being a dick to the person that's pulling most of the work to provide with entertainment. If you have a railroading GM talk with him instead of being a cunt.

Or you could go with the tl;dr version and save time

psssh.....nuthin personnel....kid.

>"Hey GM, where's John?"
>"Oh, I asked him not to come to these sessions anymore, after the drama he caused last time. Now, let's pick up where we left off..."

Edit the comment a bit and you have a great pre-fight monologue

Literally the right approach. When I sense that BBEG is DM's self insert, gloves are off.

End of the campaign, man.

You see, you can't just 'pull these things out' abruptly. You have to carefully build towards it. You have to be a team player, the guy who helps arrange sessions, gets everyone around the table, listen intently to the lore and so on.

It's only at the VERY end when all the kicking is done, that shit goes down. Disruptive players are players who kill the King in the first session: Clever players are the one who gets everyone, secretly, to go "Okay, the king is an asshole. When we get back to the palace, right after he gives us the quest reward, we jump him and kill him, all right?"

Or - "All right, we all hate the orcs. Let's quietly wait for the peace conference to happen, THEN we'll slaughter everyone."

That's when everything goes in an ugly new direction, and no-one expects it! The campaign is now marching to the beat of a new drum, and it's amazing.

>That's when everything goes in an ugly new direction, and no-one expects it! The campaign is now marching to the beat of a new drum, and it's amazing.

Or the GM quits and the game dies, because you were a passive-aggressive asshole who couldn't just air your grievances with the GM out of the game like a fucking adult.

>He's there to have fun, just as you are
Here's when it's important to remind you that Player fun > GM's fun. If GM isn't having fun, he can just throw some encounters and it's still will be at least mildly amusing. if players aren't having fun, they disappear and GM is left alone, masturbating over his shitty fantasy novel.

Again, it's the end of the game. Even if you quit, it's still a satisfying finale. Also, high-level PCs are physical gods, and can do a lot more damage than low-level PCs can.

I've seen player revolts before, and they can be devastating. I played in a Mage: The Ascension campaign before where the DM had us firmly on the railroad the entire time, and at one point...The party just snapped. When we were cornered by the MIB, all hell broke loose.

The Celestrial Chorister summoned angels to bring helicopters down, the Hermetic mage started throwing fireballs to blow up police cars, the Euthantos literally aged targets to death, and the result was a giant: Fuck this shit, let's do this.

It was the highlight of the entire campaign, which so far had consisted of shuttling between NPCs who inevitably betrayed us.

Because fuck the DM, right ?

The players can self-insert but when the DM is doing it ? Fuck him !

I admit that some DMPCs are retarded, but as long as they don't disrupt too much the pacing or the BBEG got an everything-proof shield, why is it such a problem ?

GMs are people too

You fucking insufferable cunt

I would love for you to do that in my game.

The BBEG is based on a crook who sent anonymous threats to my parents when I was younger. At least in fantasy, my players will give me vengeance

Well, the GM can go find other players who aren't expecting him to be slaving for their well-being.

But, hey, GMs have to work, to buy the books and to prepare the campaigns, and for the good GMs, adapt it to the players. The players just have to do a character sheet and roll some dices.

The least you can do for your GM is telling him to find other players, because you seems to be an asshole.

You can play with less players. You can't play without GM. The fun the whole group is having is as important as the GMs fun. But a single player's fun is less important that the GMs. A single players is not hard to replace, a GM is. And I don't really know a single GM that derives amusement from combat alone.

Have you considered that -maybe- other players enjoy stuff different than you? Same with GMs. Hell GMs that go full novel usually are just misguided and genuinely think they are providing the best entertainment they can that way. If you disagree, you talk with them, not crush everything because wow you suck. That's being a passive aggressive cunt, and an ingrate to boot, GMing, -every- kind of GMing, takes effort, you know.

Yes. Fuck him in the ass, in his throat, fuck him with twelve inch black cocks and Bad Dragon dildos.
DMs who self insert into their campaigns - especially as bad guys - should not be allowed to DM. Ever.
> inb4 all DMs do it
No, only your and your autistic brethren does. I DM all the time, but I never do it. Because I have pride and dignity.

GMing is a responsibility, including responsibility to be an arbitrator and not a SUPREME GOD OVER THE WHOLE SETTING NOW WATCH ME WANK. If players are engaged and having fun, THEN he may ask them to follow some plot hook. If they are not interested, he should back off and present them with different plot. If at any moment in campaign players aren't able to make their decisions on where campaign should go, the campaign risks becoming GM's self-indulgent railroad.

What gave you the idea that self-inserting was the norm?

>If you disagree, you talk with them, not crush everything because wow you suck.

No. You crush everything, THEN you talk to them on how much they suck.

>GMing is a responsibility.
No, it's a favor. You're not entitled to have a GM at all, much less to have one that makes his life's mission to pamper and coddle your tastes. Be a little thankful to your GM's work sometimes you entitled cunt.

The amount of retards acting as apologists in this thread.

So between fixing it and everyone having fun, and completely crushing the dude that has been working his ass off to provide entertainment, even if misguided, you chose the latter. I hope this is bate because you are fucking terrible otherwise.

>shit_that_didn't_happen.txt

Yes, yes, we're all impressed by how clever you think you'd be if you were presented with a railroading GM. Bravo. I'm sure everyone stood up and clapped when you showed that Mage ST what-for. Well done.

The only retard I see here is your sorry ass sperging out

That's pretty juvenile to be honest familia

No, it's a favor to him that we all read literal hundreds of paragrphs on his shitty setting. Now we're in the setting, and we're movers and shakers in this world that was designed solely for our amusement. Settings are worthless without players.

Confirmed for someone who's never actually played Mage.

> Waaaaaah, people don't like muh novel and muh redpilled darklord with his brainwashed Stacey, who showed all the Chads who abused him in childhood
Why don't you fucking hang yourself right about now, you mouth breathing nigger?

Players are worthless without a GM, as much as you'd like to think otherwise

Mollycoddling the GM is the worst think you can do. Don't give half-assed "well, that was good, but that needs more attention, and that needs less...". It's gay and stupid.

You suck.
Your setting sucks.
Your intrigue sucks.
Your combat is boring.
Read more, learn more and do better.

If he gave you "hundreds" of paragraphs to read as you put it, it's not optimal at all. But it doesn't justify you being a massive asshole.

Also, Players are worthless without a GM. And players are really easy to replace compared to GMs.

You are under no obligation to like it, but respectfully talking with your GM about it is a much better option that "showing him".

pic related
>What the BBEG
>Don't have one lol
All the campaigns I've been in have never actually had a proper BBEG, apart from this one dragon in a DnD that never really went anywhere and got twatted by an angel-thing.

Yeah, Nox was a pretty sweet villain. I'd like that in my campaigns

>You suck.
>Your setting sucks.
>Your intrigue sucks.
>Read more, learn more and do better
Meaningless and useless insults.

>Your combat is boring.
Actual criticism

If you're gonna be a criticizing faggot, git gud

Yes, while I agree with that thought, you can tell the GM during the campaign and not crushing his whole work after. That's not teaching them how to improve or giving feedback, that's being an abusive cunt.

Also, is this whole thread just two people dicksmacking each-other over stupid bait?

Fuck's sakes, why does this have to be updating constantly but nothing in the ST/SW generals.

I hope that in the next game you'll have a more memorable villain

Friendly reminder to all that this sperglord's entire rant started with the assumption that any villain with a tragic past is ALWAYS the GM self-inserting into the story: There's only one person projecting here, and it sure as hell isn't the GM.

Thank you kind user.
It was bait and some unwitting fool bit onto it and turned it into a full spergwar. There were only 3 survivors.

I'm actually the different guy, although i agree with that "sperglord" as you called him.

BBEG masturbation is as sad as setting masturbation. BBEGs exist for slaying. Settings exist for players' fuckery. Anything else is self-indulgence.

I count two on both sides.

You must be fun at the table. Do you also describe how you gut the BBEG in great detail while stroking yourself under the table?

It's easier to bitch than to produce lasting content. And considering we have at least two anons that have been burned by opposite sides of the PC fun vs GM fun debate, there is going to be a lot of batching.

If you want those threads to update, you better start providing them with content. Be the change you want to be user.

Actually, I kicked him to death. Gutting would've been too dignified.

>Going out of your way to make it less fun for the one guy who is actually indispensable to the campaign.

It's a good thing that this story never actually happened and you are a bitch in real life so you don't get to ruin everyone's fun with your self righteous bullshit.

I think that the key there is that Nox was not some kind of well-meaning pseudovillain, he was actually a monster. The fact that he was a victim doesn't detract from the evil of his actions, or justify them, it only informs them.

Oh, come on. You mean you've never done this, ever? Like when the GM is on a white-guilt or Warcraft kick, and you keep running into noble orcs fighting against the cruel human oppression?

Or when your GM is an atheist, and the goal is to rebel against the corrupt and evil monolithic Church, who are all cackling caricatures? Or when you meet the liberal rebels fighting against the fascist government?

You've seen that all the time, if you've gamed regularly. I have seen it all, and I'm jaded enough to be tired of that shit. I'm here to show my party that yes, there's another way.

Yes, lots of dignity. Your salivation over inter-racial manrape is very dignified. I'm sure you're masturbating to the thought with your pinkie extended.

I feel like you've never actually played a...
>I'm sure you're masturbating to the thought with your pinkie extended.
Saved.
I feel like you've never actually played an RPG and are just saying this to try and be cool and hip and down with da grogz.

I think what we have here is a case of the bad GMs. I don't think ruining the campaign is the best way to go about it, you just end up having the least amount of fun for the group. The players aren't having fun with the campaign, and the GM isn't going to have fun watching the campaign falling apart.

I believe if it gets to the point of open player rebellion, both sides should just make an effort to meet in the middle and talk about what exactly they want in a campaign/GM like reasonable adults.

But I'm only operating under the assumption that the user in question isn't being disingenuous or misconstruing the facts.

How long do your playgroups survive though?

Like sure you get to shit on the GM's dreams in a blaze of glory, but then what?

>DMs who self insert into their campaig
>implying the DM doesn't self insert into ALL of the NPCs to a certain degree
I have bad new for you user

Well, the campaign ends with a different conclusion, obviously. How many of your campaigns actually end? At least this way, there's an ENDING.

There's nothing wrong with what this poster did, I fail to see the problem. And I say this as someone who's been the GM for over 3 years now.

Sorry, no. I'm more concerned over whether the setting is satisfying and well explained, the combat engaging, and the interactions amusing.

I don't really CARE what the GM's political or theological opinions are so long as he's doing his fucking job. I'm just as happy to smash corrupt churches as I am to crush heretical fanatics or the Dread Fedoralord of the Euphoric Empire.

Take the stick out of your ass.

Well, here's my two cents:

>When I told the villain to 'Get fucked, faggot, why don't you eat shit and die?' you could see his face crumble.
If the GM can't handle the PCs forming their own opinions about the BBEG or hating the antagonist despite his backstory, he deserves whatever suffering he gets.

>I went "WHORE!" and hit her in the face with a mailed fist.
If the players openly act like assholes to sympathetic npcs or otherwise fight the tone of the game because they don't like where they think things are going, especially for meta reasons, then they can leave the game with no loss.

Fuck both sides of this fight.
It's like watching two groups passionately fight tug-of-war with a giant turd.
Y'all just waste everyone's time getting shit allover yourselves and the whole thread, and nobody wins.

>baiting at the speed of sound
either that's real and you're an horrible person, or you're an troll and a massive faggot
But since you keep replying expecting some kind of support, I'm going to say the first one

This is real all right. My University group has to deal with a lot of this bullshit that keeps being forced into games. That user has a depressingly realistic view of what modern gaming is like when the DM's on his soapbox.

Well then I feel for you. Honestly do.

I just count myself lucky my GM takes criticism well.

Frankly, the entire idea behind TTRPGs is mostly self-indulgence anyways, so thats a rather moot point. You are there to indulge in a fantasy that you would otherwise never be able to live or experience on your own.

whether its a power trip or setting wank, at the end of the day, its still self indulgence. Ain't nothin wrong with that though, so long as you rein it in when you need to.

The BBEG started creating patterns which demonstrate the reality of karma through sacrifice and disappointment.

Crazy BBEGs can work, so long as their craziness is consistent. Whatever it is that gives the character a distorted view of the world, and which leads to distorted priorities and goals (that put them in conflict with the PCs) needs to be internally consistent. That is, it needs to make sense if looked at from inside their own head.

For example, if the villain has schizophrenia, they might frequently hallucinate, hearing whispers or seeing shapes moving inside the walls. Whatever this leads them to do (i.e. thinking that demons are whispering offers of power, or that their enemies have sent monsters to try and kill them) needs to stay consistent. They're not going to run around slapping people with a fish, but they might just order a town to be massacred because they thought it was harbouring a nest of wall-monsters.

The other side of this is the simple fact that sometimes, you don't need to give the BBEG any form of clinical insanity to make them do terrible things. They might just be a sadist, and get off on watching people suffer. They might be incredibly conceited, and think the terrible things they're doing are okay since they're ones doing it, or because they're being done to [insert group]. Anything could work, so long as it's consistent.

The tricky part is figuring out why anyone would serve such a BBEG in the first place. That's not a problem if their minions are zombies or robots or something, but if they're living, sapient individuals, then the BBEG really needs something those people could want, or have some quality that makes people want to serve them. They might be rich, they might have promised wealth (or immaterial rewards like a good afterlife), they might be charismatic enough to sway a crowd into supporting their cause, etc. There needs to be something, or else the villain's minions will just seem like idiots.

Just some stuff to keep in mind when designing a BBEG.

the fuck kind of nutters are you playing with
are you literally just going into like, a crack den with some books under your arm, screaming 'LET'S D&D, AND NONE OF THAT MORALLY GRAY SHIT THIS TIME' at the top of your lungs?

over these long, shitty years i've been in a fair few groups, and i've never been in or even heard of a group this bad from anyone in-person.
i'd be convinced Veeky Forums just makes every one of these stories up but i suppose at least one of them might be true - the idea has to come from somewhere, after all, but the problem is where? seriously is there a factory in some corner of america that produces these groups or something?

i haven't even seen this shit joining groups on roll20.
am i just lucky? is some god watching me, saying 'the worst group you'll ever get is mediocre and disinterested and disbands within the week'? are you fucks shitposting from literal hell?
how many of you are actually dead, be honest.

he said playgroups, not campaigns.
do you actually have anything resembling a group?

Yes, I regularly play at a Comics-Mart in Sydney once or twice a week, since I'm still on my attachment.

He's spinning a yarn and baiting at the speed of sound. Everything he's said is in at least one way disingenuous or misconstrued. It isn't about the GM being bad, its that he's the most basic bitch dungeon crasher and just wants to hit things and will fuck up everything else if that isn't happening.

Recently, one of my players started accosting basically anyone for no reason at all. Started bitching out the captain of the boat they were supposed to take. Bitched at the group. Manhandled a young girl the rest of the group was fond of.

In 2 out of 3 of those cases, the player got manhandled back. Once by sailors that threw the person into the water. The other by one of the other party members.

When people are acting like self-entitled twats, it just means they aren't having fun or aren't interested, at least some of the time. i would say at least half of the time, the actual story, setting, or anything else don't even matter in the equation. They are an excuse. Its at this point that as a DM you should either politely attempt to fix this, or just have them exit the game. There are plenty of groups that do one off dungeon crasher stories, no need to fuck up one thats trying to do a legit campaign.

>DM makes the established church a BBEG
>"he's just an atheist loser trying to make his views seem good!"

>DM makes atheist a BBEG
>"He just hates atheists because he has delusions about gods!"

>DM makes king a BBEG
>"He's just an edgy anti-establishment anarchist!"

>DM makes democratic group a BBEG
>"He's a fascist!"

>DM makes aristocrat a BBEG
>"He's a fucking commie!"

>DM makes commoner a BBEG
>"He's a disgusting bourgeoisie!"

>DM makes BBEG look like himself
>"He's self-inserting!"

>DM makes BBEG look different from himself
>"He hates people who aren't him!"

>DM makes BBEG an old man
>"He has daddy issues!"

>DM makes BBEG a little girl
>"He's a pedophile!"

etc etc

As a DM, I make BBEGs whom the players want to kill. Like, this guy is such an asshole that I'm on your side, I want the motherfucker to die, too.

>DM doesn't make a BBEG
>"he's just a subversive hipster!"

Eloquently put, my nigga

>Caring this much about what the whiny bitches in the group say

Yes, ok, the BBEG is a self insert. Now roll for initiative.

I had someone throw a fit because of the following two things.

1: An albino who turned out to be black
2: A female antagonist

Nevermind all the references and implications of rape, slavery, murder, infanicide, backstabbing, the majority of children being orphans, human trafficking, drug trade, and the law being based on "Whatever gang has the most presence today".

But nooooo I was "misogynistic" and "whitewashing".

>are you fucks shitposting from literal hell?

Did you know how this would end when you started it?

Thoroughly agree. Different things work for different groups. If I was Guy's DM I would ask him politely to stop. If he continued I'd Rocks Fall him and boot him from the group so everyone else can enjoy the fucking game without some whiny little shitlord Bawwing because he doesn't like the BBEG.

On the flipside, if the entire group was dissatisfied, I would take a step back and re-evaluate what I'm doing.

But one guy? If its just one guy ruining it for everyone he's a tryhard cunt and deserves to have the last sliver of his miserable social life obliterated so he can focus on his superior Vidya.

>BBEG is just doing what's in it's nature to survive and sustain itself

Been in one of those groups, and believe you me it's fucking shit when you let the leftists and sjws have a shot at the helm. I didn't think they actually existed, turns out they fucking do.

It's like how, last time, the freaks would just play WoD or Vampire and be edgy in it. Now, the new 'being edgy' is shoehorning in liberal left shit.

Then the party is in the right to kill it's ass