Warcraft Lore and RPG Discussion

Holy fuck, lay off the ellipsis.

The Horde simply doesn't have the numbers, or the established supply hubs. Cata 'fixed' this by magic-ing entire armies and navies plus the supplies to maintain them out of nowhere.

>Then on Cataclysm they decided to completely change this view... Actually, it was on wrath...

No, that was the D-team developers who took over post-Ulduar when the A-Team moved on to Project Titan. Hence the gigantic narrative shift to WC1&2 that pissed off most of the Horde players.

>They notice that it was strange to have factions with all that war power having problems on Redrige or with Quillboards...

No, that's called old zones not being updated.

Wars are not won by honor duels. Alliance had logistics, supplies, ports, navies, an air force, most of the NGOs and religions were alliance based, the dragons, the ancients and the likes preferred them, they had better magic, better technology, higher population, a factory city, far more experienced leaders, a prophet literally able to see the future, a spaceship and so on. Also a fucking big-G God.

Pretty much. Vanilla BGs all follow the pattern of "Alliance/Horde-affiliated organization is having a beef with an organisation of the other faction, hires mercenaries to wreck the other guy's stuff".
Silverwing Sentinels hire mercenaries to wreck the Warsong lumber mill, and the Warsong hire mercenaries to defend it and wreck the Silverwing fortress. Defilers and League of Arathor hire mercenaries to claim Arathi Basing for them. Frostwolves and Stormpike dwarves hire mercenaries to kill the other side's lead (this is probably the closest to a proper Alliance vs Horde war in vanilla, but even that is more of a proxy war, since it's not between Red and Blue proper, but two small subfactions fighting over one area).

People who push faction war storyline even when it makes no sense in order to justify pvp seems to always forget that the golden age of WoW pvp (at leats world pvp) happened while the Horde and Alliance were canonically engaged in a cold war, rather than an all-out war (and this also works a lot better story-wise, since you can never really deliver on the "total war" plotline because neighter side can truly lose or suffer major defeats; just see how unsatisfyingly the Siege of Orgrimmar ended due to them having to maintain the status quo).

>Frostwolves and Stormpike dwarves hire mercenaries to kill the other side's lead
Speaking of, what was up with that? I mean, Drek'thar was in Kalimdor during the founding of Orgrimmar, and I don't see why him or the rest of the Frostwolves wouldn't stay with Thrall. Why the fuck were they suddenly back in Alterac?

They probably also acted as the orc forces backing up Forsaken.

I believe the idea is that during the years between Warcraft 1 and 3, after the Frostwolves left the Horde because Durotan was killed, Alterac is where they wandered to because it reminded them of home, so they settled it and lived there, claiming it as a new homeland for themselves on the reasonable assumption that it was free game because the Kingdom that previously inhabited it was never coming back, and they were never going to be able to go back to Draenor.

The whole SOO ending was such bullshit. Horde and Alliance have been at all-out war through the entire expansion (previous expansion, too), and now the Alliance is besieging the Horde's capital, a significant amount of Horde's population ahs turned against their warcheif for being an orc-nazi, and said warchief is defeated by a bunch of murderhoboes. Essentially, Alliance just won the war. So what do they do? Pack up their stuff, leave, and tell the next warchief not to screw up so badly. And then they're back to being at war two expansions later.

It'd be like if after Hitler died, the allied forces would immediately leave from Germany with nothing more than warning Dönitz not to screw up. No war crime tribunals, no dismantling the nazi military, hell, technically the nazis themselves are still in charge.
And sure, Döniz was by all accounts a reasonable man and could probably be relied on to not do anything too stupid (the first thing he did when he was made führer was negociate a ceasefire with the wester allies to give him enough time to organize the evacuation of civilians from the area of German cut off from the rest by the soviets, and once that was done issued immediate surrender of all his forces), but that'd still be an incredubly stupid thing to do, especially when two expansions later Döniz gets stabbed to death by a demon and names Zombie-Göbbels his successor (because...I don't know, a submarine told him or something), and then nazis and the alliance go right back to war because Werewolf-Churchill thinks nazis abandoned them while fighting demons and got FDR killed, and Zombie-Göbbels sinks the Iowa and tries enslaving the valkyria, and this whole analogy is falling apart, isn't it?

>because...I don't know, a submarine told him or something

Pure blizz writing here....

>...and this whole analogy is falling apart, isn't it?

Nah, its on pair with warcraft lore so far...

Back them I really loved warcraft lore because it was incredibly well done, its was not like a Final Fantasy bullshit game were nations do not have any past, culture trendings, notable heroes or relevant story... But now it is just pure bullshit.

SoO was trying to have a total war then snapping back to the status quo too because cant "be unfair" to the horde. It was the height of retardation, why have a fucking faction war storyline, culminating in the siege of a capital if nothing is going to come of it? The stupid War Crimes book was just the cherry on the shit sundae. It makes my boil thinking about it to this day.

I mean, to be fair Vol'jin was a witch doctor of extraordinary power and skill. If DA SPIRITS tell him something he's not gonna take it likely. And for us as the players at least, we know that Sylvanas took a huge risk using her Extra Lives to save the Horde's leadership from mass-murder. She didn't have to help them, she could have cut and run. Instead she took the chance that she could have been condemned to hell for all eternity because all her Zombie Valakryies got killed in the rescue. That's a good sign, and a good reason for DA SPIRITS to tell Vol'jin she's worthy of being trusted to fix this shit.

DA SPIRITS is a bullshit copout on par with the jedi prophecy about anakin bringing balance to the force

its just there to enable a completely retarded plot

It's probably going to pan out with her being Warchief putting her in a position to finally make her big heroic sacrifice and earn redemption through death.

At least I fucking hope so because boy howdy am I tired of her.

I doubt Horde is going to get a new Warchief yet again so soon. Someone's bound to whine about it.

Its a plot device, a literal deus ex machina even, but its not bullshit when its immediately preceded by a moment that proves a significant character change to the person in question. The point is to provide a reasonable justification that the other leaders will accept for Sylvie to be put in charge. She saved all their lives, something they wouldn't have expected. She got the endorsement of the leader they all loved and who saved their civilization from ruin, and he gave it to her because he communed with the spirits. What the spirits told him was reasonable and not something to be doubted or dismissed BECAUSE she'd just done something unlikely, selfless and important.

It is also a bullshit copout to enable a retarded plot when Ghost Obi-Wan tells Luke where to find Yoda? No, because the preceding events show us that Luke needs more training, his previous victories weren't good enough to save the galaxy, and he needs that deus ex machina plot device to direct him to the next step of his journey. The context justifies it.

You keep using words you dont really understand.

Fuck, you're right. They probably wouldn't want to make the position even more of a revolving door death sentence than it already is.

Sylvanas doesn't really seem to ahve any character change, though. During the Broken Shore events and the opeing cinematic, it seems she might have, but in Legion she's right back to deploying the plague, trying to enslave the leader of the val'kyr, and generally being a colossal asshole.

You have a point. On the one hand, its not like she's not doing what she's supposed to be doing. She calls out the Horde military, spearheaded by her personal forces, to support the PC in his mission to get the Aegis. She's not out looking to wage war on the Alliance, she's not trying to get the treasure for herself or manipulate the situation to her own advantage. That's a big step for her compared to the past.

But she does still have her ulterior motives going on under the surface, and we the player do not get to be privy to them. We are trusted enough to be told flat out she HAS those motives, and we see bits and pieces of her plan along the way so we can figure out what she's doing, but she doesn't take the player into her confidence and explain why we should trust her, she just says that we should and that what she's up to isn't for her, but for the Forsaken as a species and the Horde as a whole. We have to take it on faith.

The Player is ostensibly a high-ranking Horde general, a hero known across the land, a personal confidant and close advisor to three previous Warchiefs (and Saurfang even!). We of all people should be telling her "Vol'jin might have given you the torch, but I have no reason to trust you and I have the pull to handle you. Spill or I'm not helping."

I think the story would have worked perfectly if that moment had been there. Absent it, yeah, she comes across as having not really changed, which undercuts the narrative.

Maybe the PC is more inteligent than that.

Sylvanas dont take this kind of thing lightly..... the last one who tried to dance on his own song was Koltira, we all know how it ends...and he was not even refusing to fight.

PC are indeed a special snowflake but they still cant mess with faction leaders without a raid to support.

>especially when two expansions later Döniz gets stabbed to death by a demon and names Zombie-Göbbels his successor (because...I don't know, a submarine told him or something), and then nazis and the alliance go right back to war because Werewolf-Churchill thinks nazis abandoned them while fighting demons and got FDR killed, and Zombie-Göbbels sinks the Iowa and tries enslaving the valkyria,
I'd play this Wolfenstein game

>50043691
This is pretty much half the reason I quit wow, and warcraft in general. They went from semi serious fantasy to full retarded. I used to want to run a warcraft campaign, but I'd have to scorched earth all the lore since warcraft 3 frozen throne to be happy. (and start at the beginning of vanilla wow).

None of that mattered because until the Goblins rejoined the Alliance, they could have gone Anglo-Zulu War on them and used their technological advantage to wrest supremacy, but then they had to wait and do questionable things like NOT upgrade their legions of obsolete footmen into riflemen wheres riflemen now outpace them in any meaningful way and their steel/mithril/thorium armor is as good as tissue paper in the face of Saronite and whatever leet new spess metal is in vogue at the moment, lost their sole nuclear reactor and any ability to potentially develop the A-bomb, completely neglected to upgrade their infrastructure to make use of technological innovations like the steam engine (railroads are HUGE game changers when it comes to affordable shipping), and have been stagnating while the Horde has made great leaps in catching up and is now fielding early mechanized formations and making use of objects like radios and telecommunications that makes their standing forces superior not only physically, but tactically as well.

Rejoined the Horde*. Rejoined the Horde in an alliance.

So world of warcraft has gone full fantasypunk now..

it has been since vanilla, the Horde just finally caught up to the Alliance

I was always under the impression that most technology was viewed as gimmicky because magic could do much of the same stuff.

it didn't stop the dwarves from building steam engines, tanks and guns

Go chimpout with Nigger Lives Matter.

That requires the Horde losing stuff that actually matters and we can't have that.

>pretending that they'd kill off Sylvanas and not bring her back anyway

>Sylvanas is a trash

Of course she is. She's another Stronk Female Character for unattractive females and white knights to worship.

>actually taking Warcraft technology seriously

Obvious solution: Kill her off, bring back Vol'jin because he was only pretending to be dead

Go back to Draenor and get AU Grom to lead the MU Horde.

>>Sylvanas is a trash
>Of course she is. She's another Stronk Female Character for unattractive females and white knights to worship.
Nope. She was competent before this PC wave. She's been queen of the Forsaken since 2003.

>Alliance
>Better magic

You're right on the others, but Grithos drove away the best magic users in the world. The only comparable mages are naga and, recently, nightborne.

>Inb4 muh Kirin Tor
Yeah Dalaran and Jaina's power level are 10 times bigger asspulls than Org could ever hope to be.

Fucking nelves should be at least equal in strength to humans and dwarves could literally steamroll humans. Humans are as much annoying Mary Sues as orcs are dindus

MMO Champion Niggers please go

I think in terms of military power. Dwarves should be at the top by themselves, and boosted even further up by gnomish artifice and arcana. Followed by humans assuming it's all the remaining human kingdoms working together (which they never do). Then the night elves

>blood elves
>best magic users
junkies please go.

Junkies they may be, they still have the most knowledge of the arcane

They're an entire race of magic sherlock holmes. Drugged up as fuck, but still the best in their field

Never posted there in my life, you presumptuous fuck. Just stating fact.

Hell no. Grom should have been killed via raid in WoD and the fact he didn't was the cherry on the shit sundae of that expansion.

>there are actually two Warcraft threads running right now

why

>You're right on the others, but Grithos drove away the best magic users in the world. The only comparable mages are naga and, recently, nightborne.
Everyone forgets that the Draenei were masters of magic before Elves even existed.

That's because the correct view of the draenei is to forget they exist

I like them.

Draenei are great, why don't you like them?

Holier than humans, better at magic than elves, better tech than gnomes or goblins with a longer history than trolls and a bigger bone to pick with the demons than orcs.

They basically just take every cool thing other races have and invalidate them, or they would if the writers ever paid attention to them, but fortunately the writers have actually caught on to how obnoxious everything about the draenei is and have remembered to not let them do things so they don't make everyone else cease mattering

Instead humans do that, because the writers are still incompetent as fuck

They could've always had their big thing being a beef against the Orcs for the whole genocide thing.

people make 2 threads by mistake sometimes.
let the gnome one die.

Maraad never dies.

Makes you wonder why out of all the cinematic trailer characters only the Draenei and Panderan actually became plot relevant.

They're also easily the least numerous of all of the playable races and most of them go holy as opposed to arcane.

What if the NPCs that wander Dalaran in Legion are characters from the previous trailers?
Could pic related be Garl Grimgizzle?

the thing I find weird about those guys is that they're all still in WoD tier despite being 105
buncha morons wasting all their money on transmogs before max level

Gul'dan is second best orc.

Best is Garrosh.

The characters that wander Dalaran in Legion are the same ones from Wrath, I'm pretty sure.

>Warcraft
>lore

>incoherent character

>there to force faction faggotry

>was key in getting us the train wreck that is Warlords of Draenor

>best Orc

Not sure if Horde Dindu Nuffin poster or pol faggot.

He wasn't there for that originally. He was going to be a warchief for longer if not for the incessant bitching of the 'fans' that decried him for threatening their waifu Sylvanas, putting Vol'jin in his place for acting like a retard, and killing Cairne.

The 'fans' are as much to blame for half the faggotry in the game as the writers forced to pander to them.

No, the "forcing faction faggotry" problem was a part of Garrosh from WotLK onwards, and was always his biggest problem

>Joke of a Lore
>Inconsistent
>Loads of Dindu Nuffins
>favoritism here favoritism there,
>Whitewashing
>Reusing dead characters when you get into a corner
>Cartoon Villains

How can you talk about WC Lore seriously? How?

>dindu nuffin
>sjw
>/pol/
>dindu
>dindu nuffin
>dindu nuffin
>sjw
>dindu

No wonder these threads suck.

You got triggered?

he's shitposting to try and get the thread deleted
just ignore him

You need to go back.

(to Reddit)

>>>/tumblr/

>everybody who mocks the Horde and/or Illidan is one poster

Twitter is way over there ->.

reading comprehension is hard, you're right

If the worgen are cured, do they lose their druidic powers?
If not, can they control pack form?

the worgen curse can't be cured, and Gilnean humans knew druidic magic already because of reasons
also, I don't think anyone knows how to do the pack form anymore

>the worgen curse can't be cured

Not even by Dr. Van Hellsing's famous bullet through the brains treatment?

Worgen is pack form u undead

yeah but the pack form is voluntary while becoming a worgen is now transmitted through a curse. After the original worgen got spaced, everyone forgot about the pack form

Packform also makes you go apeshit

Why would you want to cure the Worgen curse anyway? Seems that Worgen are superior to regular Humans.

Probably comes with some weird and uncomfortable instincts. Not to mention that you completely lose control and become a mindless killing machine without alchemical or night elf help

I guess, I dont know much about worgen lore aside from "super stronk wolf people"

They didn't know druidic magic. It was coincidentally similar plant manipulation.

It's a pile of shit, really.

People flocking to these threads are nostalgic fags and living cancer from /v/ and Veeky Forums.

There can't be people from Veeky Forums here, because they actually talk about the topic of the thread.

using player numbers to back up lore is dumb.

That pandaren in question was already plot relevant.

who's the karl franz of azeroth + outlands?

It's a pile of shit NOW, but once upon a time, it was good stuff

That's why I keep coming to these stupid threads, because I remember when WoW lore gripped me moreso than any other fantasy setting, before Kosak ruined everything and rendered the setting so broken that a hard reset is the only possible way left to fix it

it's not using player numbers, tauren and pandas are the least played race
draenei have been genocided constantly for 25k years and they're down to barely enough people to skeleton crew a spachship

I wonder how much of it was because of the lore itself and how much of it was because of the gameplay of WoW.

When I moved to the states, the first thing I did after getting a computer was buying WoW from the local gamestop because I had to explore azeroth in 3rd person.

yes, and from what we know of the draenei they have advanced magitech, which is arcane in nature.

Kind of, but I think it was also because WC3 was my first exposure to orcs, minotaurs and trolls that weren't pure evil all the time, and the idea that "monstrous" races could have just as deep and complex societies as humans, dwarves and elves just seemed amazing and fantastic to ten-year-old me.

>nostalgia.jpg

What is your favourite Blizzard's take on a fantasy cliche ? We all know that while they don't produce anything original, Blizzard is very good at manipulating cliches into polished, researched and surprisingly good ideas.

Mine is how they transformed Dwarves into boring miners and drunkards into Archeologists, Griffon-riders and Mages.

>Here we see the poltard outside of its natural habitat, trying to communicate
1st and 2nd War were under the Legion's influence. 3rd War was a common effort, except Hellscream's dickery. And that is everything that matters - in WoW they are both ready to kill each other and are equally guilty.

Precisely, and what's so wrong with that?

Not wrong per se, but it could prove to be a skewing factor when evaluating lore.

It's not player numbers. Draenei are lorewise few in number and largely focussed on holy rather than arcane. Therefore while their mages may be excellent they're also really few in number.