The Emperor was created when a bunch of psykers fused, why doesn't chaos do the same thing and create a Anti-Emperor?

The Emperor is single handily holding the chaos gods at bay and in Collected Visions, fought against their combined power and survived.

Do you really think the chaos gods, the guys who will only resort to teamwork if they find themselves threatened in some way, would really want another guy like that running around, let alone actively try to make one?

Wasn't Nurgle born during the Black Plague?

definitely after Emps "birth", but dunno, fluff can vary. Sometimes they are supposed to be ancient primordial gods, often we discover they are barely 45-40k old?
They didn't manage to feast on other races, but somehow human race contribute the most to the big 3 and their coming of age.
Then again, they could be older, and maybe Black Death was only the first time Nurgle came in contact with humans, but had in fact existed since the dawn of warp?

Trying to make sense about warp stuff and history of the greater beings of warp just makes my head hurt.
Maybe that's why Lorgar is not doing anything lately, his head hurts from trying to make sense out of something that makes no sense.

Wasn't there something written about them always being there because time means jack in the warp?

Possessed Marines keep their souls.

He was the first chaos god, but wasn't really sapient/sentient before the plague.

Thanks to time fuckery, yes. The warp is fucked up and doesn't follow time. So in our realm, Nurgle didn't pop up until the Plague, but in the warp, Nurgle always existed and exerted force on our dimension.

It just works.

warp is just a boiling mass of unreal emotions that exist outside of known physical reality, a constant turmoil of insanity where time might or might not exist as we know it

The early 3 may have been existing before Emprah was created, or they may have been creations of latter days when mankind was already turning to cities and organized religions, brutal wars, filth and diseases.

"Primordial"; maybe Chaos had barely any role in the state of warp before the 3 gods got a chance to feed on mankind. Eldars were too advanced and powerful to be used for their own ends, whereas Big E probably had not realized the dangers that warp might present to mankind.

Shouldn't an elder being like the Emprah have it easy when facing newer creations like the Chaos gods? Or has Emperor clinging to physical reality hindered his career advance, and by refusing to become a Warp God he has given too much leeway to the other fuckers?

I like how a thousand fused psykers is more powerful than four gods empowered by an entire galaxy.

They weren't just psykers, there were perpetuals.

oh yeah, by creating an unreal world of immaterium and madness where nothing makes sense, the nonsense of Chaos and fucked up timelines start making sense.

goddammit
it's so fucking stupid that GW might just a Greenskin horder in disguise

>youtube.com/watch?v=DeNBJ5o-b7s
>there is hope but it will be hard, it will be so very hard

>Emp is supposedly older than the 4 Chaos Gods,

>We have lore about the Old Ones creating massive planet prisons to contain billions of daemonic entities before the War of Heaven
>Wehave Be'lakor who is the First Daemon ever created by Chaos Gods. He is millions of years old and memories of the first Necrontyr Necropolis and the Eldar homeworlds

Stop this meme. The Emperor's live is but a speck to any Chaos entity, let alone the Chaos Gods.

well, Big E supposedly was born in Anatolia 10000BC, meaning early 3 other Chaos Gods came to "exist" only later
thanks to no Slaanesh fuckery, the warp might have been more stable and calm back then, especially of the early 3 were just beginning to form.
Powerful Eldar gods and their race holding dominion over most the galaxy back then might have kept early forms of Chaos in check.

also, considering how many trillions upon trillions of men hold faith in the Emperor, he is far powerful thanks to all those lesser warp presences buffing his gigantic warp presence

The 4 tread carefully around the Big E for a reason, then again their actual plan may just involve leaving the Empire quite stable, so they can keep milking it for shits and giggles. (why shoot a milkcow?)

>a thousand
It never specified a number, but it was thousands, plural. And each was stated to be a powerful psyker in their own right. Given that this was a time when the warp was far more benign, it's more than possible they were alphas or higher.

>(why shoot a milkcow?)
To stop humanity from becoming the psychic master race and ensure chaos for all time (or lack thereof)

You

see

Again with this meme.

Be'lakor forged space empires and Chaos xenos were a thing back then. There is no early forms. Chaos was always here even back then at the time of the Old Ones.

>Carnac shows up
>Thread dies
Should happen more often really.

Be'lakor is too busy with his band to actually do anything though

1d4chan.org/wiki/Nurgle

>He was the first Chaos God to begin to form in Warhammer 40k, somewhere in the post-Roman era (probably during the Justinian Plague, [1] in the 5-600s). Khorne was the first to gain sapience though, during the orgy of violence that were the Mongol invasions. Nurgle quickly followed suit and became fully conscious during the Black Death.

I know the fluff can be retarded, but I honestly don't know what to believe. It makes sense to believe that Primordial Truth is truly primordial, but then some other source claims that the 3 are kinda newish?

Have there existed different Chaos gods during ancient times, during War in Heaven? They come and go? Different entities rise to the top, only to eventually get toppled down? As the fight over dominance in warp rages on?

It's not a meme. That user's right: in a chronology, the Emperor is older than the Dark Gods.

Thing is, unlike him they're pure Chaos, so once they're born they can fuck off into the past and do stuff like Emps is older, but he's weaker and can't time-travel.

>1d4chan
>source

Cancer.
Get out.

To answer your questions. Be'lakor is the child of the Four Chaos Gods. The first daemon ever created and the first mortal raised to immortal daemonhood by the gods. He is the First Prince and First Child of Chaos. He predates the Fall and pretty much every major event in the setting He saw the Necrontyr and Eldar rise.

How could this be? Because the Chaos Gods always existed in the Warp. Mortal Be'lakor is most likely was a primordial creature contacted all Four of them and pleased them all to earn his reward.

>Or were, no one's made it clear if Eldrad's permanently fucked it.
Oh come now, that hanger wasn't nearly big enough

Acording to the Deathwatch codex, "something" came out of the ritual and went into hiding in the Webway after Artemis fucked everything up. Also Eldrad survived and escaped with a smile in his face.

You mean Death Masque.

And it didn't go into the Webway. It disapeared into SPESS.

Short answer tzeench
long answer they do, in the old fluff they are just not as strong

Honestly 40k would be a much better setting without the God-Emperor, C'tan and Chaos Gods.

They just complicate the setting without adding anything. The War in Heaven happened because supertech not star vampire gods, the Fall of the Eldar happened because they opened a portal to a hostile dimension in the middle of their empire not because they got their souls eaten by gay satan, the Great Crusade was planned and executed by normal humans with the Emperor just being a mythic figurehead along the lines of Emperor of Japan. Doesn't that make more sense?

>he's weaker
Is that why they had to subtly undermine him while he was free to fuck around the warp as he pleased, and why a dying Emps nearly obliterated all four gods when they merged with Horus with a single attack?

No, it's shit, and thank the Emperor you don't have any say in these things.

Doesn't make a lick of difference to me other than simplifying things

I'll take purely for the fact that if this was true, Chaos wouldn't be a faction anymore.

Because the forces of Chaos are filled with and commanded by a
bunch of incompetent/braindead/insane turncoats

>Is that why they had to subtly undermine him while he was free to fuck around the warp as he pleased
You mean fuck around in the material universe? If not, I don't know what lore you're referencing.

>and why a dying Emps nearly obliterated all four gods when they merged with Horus with a single attack?
Again, what? The version I've always heard was that the four ultra-buffed Horus, but were never in any danger themselves.

Where are you getting this?

It says their combined might was in Horus when the Emperor attacked, and that they disengaged from Horus as the attack hit.
But it doesn't say that they were going to be "obliterated". Just that they retreated.

i can't believe ive never seen this meme

>Eldrad survived and escaped with a smile in his face.

Survived yes, smiled no.

>You mean fuck around in the material universe?
No, i mean openly mess around in the warp both using his powers and creating a webway while the big mean chaos gods didn't even think about making a move directly.
And yes, they straight up scurried like rats when Big E's attack hit.

>human-centric timeline again
>a planet of 500 millions people matters
Yeah, I'm sure the black plague was the biggest epidemic ever in the entire galaxy. Good thing the birth of slaneesh was already written in the fluff, otherwise they would have linked it with the hippie movement.
Fucking GW, not even once.

>fuck off into the past
I don't think the designers have really thought about the ramifications of omniscient daemons/emotional aggregates going back in time. I think it's completely retarded, complicates matters needlessly, and serves no purpose.

>Where are you getting this?

>I don't think the designers have really thought about the ramifications of omniscient daemons/emotional aggregates going back in time. I think it's completely retarded, complicates matters needlessly, and serves no purpose.
I agree. The only (flimsy) excuse I can think of for the Dark Gods not going back and assraping the galaxy right after the Big Bang is that they might cease to be if they negate the even that created them. But even so, they should be handily winning the war if they can Edge of Tomorrow their way through every conflict after the Fall.

>But even so, they should be handily winning the war if they can Edge of Tomorrow their way through every conflict after the Fall.

It's just a game to them. They decide how it ends.

>the Chaos Gods represent different kinds of players of 40k

Well, thats not exactly new, GW did have an artwork for the new warhammer quest game that had 4 greater demons of tzeentch to represent the players.

>that one fag who rushes headlong into combat
>that one fag who has a ridiculously complex list of units and win condition and doesn't even care if he wins so long as he can play it
>that one fag who loves any kind of tarpit and/or attrition strategy that makes games last forever
>that one fag who spends more time painting and modeling his minis JUST RIGHT than he actually does playing with them

My god, it lines up perfectly.

>Khorne are the people who just play for violence and to enjoy the game
>Nurgle are the players who don't want the fluff to change, bitch about shit like newcrons
>Tzeentch on the other hand are the faggots who want the 40k version of end itmes
>Slaanesh are the hobbyists who go into extreme perfection of their craft

really makes you think

what about the dude who is looking for an excuse to get drunk and try to do maths

Nurgle, as always, best god.

Do Dwarves have a chaos god?

More like whiniest and bitchiest god.

Khorne is the best god in this example because games should be enjoyed.

>implying best god isn't the god emperor
go home heretics

Malal because he fucks with the other's ability to enjoy their shit and because that dude is so few and far between that you're not entirely sure he exists.

>ferrus manus?

he plays flyrant spam and non ironically loves it
he also loves anything twin linked so he can roll more dice
he also smells very much of weed and smug

But this makes no sense.
If that is true, either Bel'akor has false memories or he was created only by three of them.
Slaanesh went to "life" with the fall of the Eldar and that is roughly 10.000 years before the time humanity reaches the stars

Except humanocentrism could actually make perfect sense here.

I mean, think about it. Warp entities are born from the congealed souls and emotions of sentient mortals, and they continue to have a particular affinity for the kinds of souls and emotions that they were made of.

Then there's the fact that very few species in 40K have managed to spread across the galaxy. Note how most xenos species in 40K are actually minor species that are only found in a few little corners of the galaxy. The only real exceptions to this are the Greenskins, the Eldar and the Necrons. Old Ones don't count here because they were long extinct by the time humanity came around anyway.

And then there's the fact that neither the Greenskins nor the pre-Fall Eldar nor the Necrons were sensitive to Chaos. See where I'm going here?

Humanity was an anomaly because it managed to spread and multiply so much more than almost any other race out there - and this gave the humanity-borne warp entities a huge boost, allowing them to overshadow just about all the xenos-norne warp entities out there.

I know that 40K fluff is a mess on this one, but the notion of humanocentric Chaos gods really does work.

Because it's Chaos. How the fuck are they going to organize that? And why would they? Shit would get boring fast.

>Slaanesh is the guy putting boobs on wraithknights and obsessing over waifus.
FTFY

Well, they don't really want to be minor parts of something greater, they want power for themselves.

Why don't humans just create a new Emperor?

What's a few thousand psykers in a population of millions of billions?

>Create a new emperor
What? Is the one golden glory not good enough for you, you fuckin heretical ingrate.

Because that would be fucking heresy you fucking heretic.

I actually ran a huge Deathwatch campaign two years ago that ended up delving into time travel halfway through, and the fluff on the Chaos Gods guided me on how to do it. Basically, in my game there were two separate methods of time travel-Necron time travel, and warp travel. Necron time travel works via multiverse theory-every single time you go back you effectively enter another timeline, and thus when you "change events" you merely enter another universe. These alternate timelines eventually collaspe, Donnie Darko style, because they're essentially simulacrums that exist in the Webway and are sustained by crazy necron tech. Warp time travel is the real deal-the Warp is the final arbiter of the "main" 40k timeline. Once a change is made via the Warp, it retcons the universe-whatever they changed in the past has always and will always have happened. If time travellers cause a series of contradictory events to happen, the entire area gets swallowed up by a warp storm and all of those events happen simultaneously-basically the Warp in the West happens anytime there's too much time travel bullshit. This occurs because Realspace is a reflection of the Warp, but because it works on a principle of logic and causality it needs time to move linearly. Realspace will thus be bent when time travel occurs in order to maintain casaulity while ALSO reflecting timeline changes that were brought about via the Warp. Got it? Good.

Now when this really gets interesting is when you bring in the fact that a new Chaos God, Slaanesh, was created by an event in realspace altering the Warp. When this happens via a time traveller changing events in Realspace having arrived via the Warp(rather than the Necron's weird webway time travel thing), the warp in the west deal happens on a small scale. But Slaanesh's birth was an event that altered all of galactic, if not UNIVERSAL, history. That's why the entire galaxy got swallowed up by Warp Storms after Slaanesh's birth, her very existence retroactively altered so much history that large swathes of the galaxy had to be completely rearranged in order for casualty to remain intact in realspace. But there was one place where casulity simply couldn't exist-the former Eldar empire. Because the Eldar created Slaanesh, who consumes their souls and corrupts them by her very nature, the Eldar empire never could have been built because the species would have been consumed by Slaanesh long ago-this is because Slaanesh has always existed and will always exist. But Slaanesh was only birthed because the Eldar empire in realspace grew so large and decadent that they created her in a massive psychic cataclysm. But that empire could have never been created because the old Eldar's souls before wraithstones were doomed to be corrupted and consumed! This un-resolvable stable timeloop caused a complete causality breakdown, and the result was the Warp totally overtaking realspace in that area, resulting in the Eye of Terror.

It is said that once a Chaos god is born, the Warp assumes that it always existed.
Then again...
>It's the Warp, shit don't make sense.
>Believing daemons lies.

This kind of reality altering retcon bullshit is exactly why no one should attempt to create a new Emperor either, and why the Starchild might actually be a bad end for the galaxy. The creation of a new supremely powerful warp entity, complete with its own motivations, goals, and army of daemons, now exists throughout all space and time, and will begin to exert its will wherever it can. The sheer stress this puts on causality in realspace is huge, and each time a Chaos God was "born" it put huge stress on realspace as daemon invasions which hadn't occured until the Chaos God suddenly existed forever wiped out entire civilizations. It causes major problems even on a small scale-such as Be'lakor forging empires in the names of four Chaos Gods "before" Chaos Gods existed. Anyone who tries to wrap their heads around this can't, because they think time has to move in a straight line. In reality realspace is just the shallow surface on top of true reality-the Warp. Just as deep ocean currents can suddenly cause ripples on a smooth surface, events in the Warp can profoundly alter realspace with no apparent cause or effect. Realspace has done a pretty good job of keeping casaulity intact with the birth of each Chaos God, but Slaanesh nearly destroyed it for good. The birth of another entity as powerful as that could very well cut the string on reality, and bring the deep water of the Warp up to the surface. And that's the bad end forseen by the Eldar-no time, no space, only chaos.

Tl;dr: Don't create a new Emperor because it might retcon reality so hard that reality just gives up.

Didn't you read? It was started in this very thread. The Emperor was made in a different time. In 40k, the psykers would just get immediately devoured as they died.

The most retarded things about the Chaos Gods is how they were apparently spawned because of events in human history. Despite being entities that influence and are influenced by the entire Galaxy

Another stellar example of 40K's "quality" lore.

Chaos would still be a faction they'd just be called the Enslavers.

Another stellar example of someone not reading the codex. Nice memepost.

No, it doesn't because the Eldar were doing all that shit well beforehand and only created a Chaos God when they reached the heights of depravity. But humanity manages to shit out Nurgle from one Plague? Without all dying in the process?

It's really fucking retarded.

I'll bite, what are the origins of the Chaos Gods and who is wrong in this thread?

A Tyranid Hive Fleet that developed the ability of the aliens in Edge of Tomorrow would be pretty cool, just imagine Imperials using every trick in the book trying to stop them and being countered at every turn. Until a random guardsman just happens to absorb some special Tyranid blood before he dies and a million deaths later becomes the Hero of the Imperium who defeated Hive Fleet Bullshit.

>I hate 40k
>But somehow I know enough about it to cite semi-obscure lore to explain why it's stupid
Where do you people come from? Do you deliberately research settings you don't like, or did you see the roided out men in huge pauldrons fighting with chainsaw swords and not immediately realize it wouldn't be grounded enough for your your taste?

That actually sounds reasonable.

The origins of the chaos gods is so fucking conflicting when they could be explained by how societies have advanced.
Nurgle is the oldest and related to the fear of death and wasting disease, something even the earliest sentient creatures in the universe would experience.
Khorne is next and tied to bloodshed and murder, something again that primitive societies know, but going to war requires a more organization, such as a tribal structure.
Then we have Tzeentch, with all the politicking and deception. This is something more common in a yet more advanced society, where power and influence is not governed solely by might alone.
Finally we have Slaanesh, a result of a highly advanced and truly decadent society, when the excesses that created it were possible.

This ties it all up pretty easily and explains why Nurgle is the oldest, as fear and the struggle against the inevitability if decay is something extremely primal, why Nurgle, Khorne, and Tzeentch could have existed long before mankind, and why Slaanesh is the youngest, because it took the extremely advanced Eldar society as its very height to reach such a level of decadence for it to come into being.

Why does GW have to make it so complicated?

>Be'lakor
>his band
Should be "Bel accord" then.

Can't. No shamans around anymore, since the Warp is too hostile for anybody to reincarnate.
What made the shamans so powerful was the fact that they'd figured out how to exist as souls after death and be reborn like the Old Ones would, allowing them to accumulate dozens of lifetimes worth of knowledge and experience. Each of them was easily worth a hundred Alpha psykers.

>The Emperor was created when a bunch of nigh godlike psykers fused
FTFY

So what you're saying is that the Warp has Gee Dubs-tier retcon powers?

Once they're born, they seem able to bend time in the Material to a certain extent, within limits.

Alternately, daemons and Be'lakor just talk shit, which I find just as compelling an argument.

I like 40K, I just think a lot of the lore is retarded.

If the Eldar are less vulnerable to the Warp turmoil (possible), then it might make sense, actually, like what was mentioned about humanocentric Chaos Gods. If a human causes more turmoil as humanity grows and spreads than an Eldar would, it makes sense that humans could create a Chaos God with much less than it took the Eldar.

Why didn't the godlike psykers use their godlike powers to uplift humanity and take over the galaxy then rule it between themselves so that the chaos gods would never gain godlike power? how does creating a worthless god-emperor who keeps humanity in the dark ages for tens of thousands of years help anyone?

They were no longer reincarnating, because the Warp was getting worse. So they did a Hail Mary and Voltron'd up into somebody who COULD handle the Warp before they were all individually picked off.

If they were so godlike what could pick them off? daemons lol?

The Warp itself.

Cant you just see that in the BL world we live in today that the old fluff just doesn't work anymore. With the changes to chaos such as Bel'akor chaos undivided and the fact that the Gods dont need human emotions to survive any longer the creation of the Emperor in the old way just doesnt make any sense.

Thats why BL put out their skubtastic changes on Moleoch and tried to imply the Emps stole his power. When BL finally finishes the HH series shit will be so different from the old fluff as to not even cross over.

Basically. They weren't no Old Ones, mind you. The Warp kept getting messier and rebirth kept getting harder, so they basically figured "well fuck, let's do this shit on our terms and never die again."

Did not exactly nail the execution on that last one.

The Warp.

Think of it as the difference between paddling in a swimming pool, and being dropped into a raging river that ends in a waterfall.

Well, they aren't dead yet. Emps is still breathing. Hurting, but breathing. There's the theory that he might be able to resurrect at full power if he was off the throne for just long enough to die, Warp-up, and resurrect, but if he does that then everything else goes to shit, there isn't a Malcador to an hero on the throne while he does.

Remember that one Daemon of Slaanesh which is older than Slaanesh?