Is this mentality the reason that Pathfinder is such a shitty game?

Do we have to have this thread every week?

Face it, people play the system for some reason and you have not persuaded enough of them to matter.

No, most of it is rather reasonable. That's how playtesting works.

But still:
>Essentially alternate version of 3.5 with some fixes, and some breaking. Doesn't address the big flaws, so they remain in game. Perhaps it is out of fear that it would alienate 3.5 crowd, but some more major revamps were needed.
>Lot of player options are distributed into feats, sometimes behind large chains of feats - and their balance was making featless attempts unviable or harmful
>Massive balance problems - while perfect balance isn't needed, some classes lack synergy or tools to perform at satisfactory levels ( ex. monk ) - and this is sometimes tried to justify with arbitary decisions like "it isn't magi, so it has to be realistic"
>Kitchen sink setting that feels schizophrenic and difficult to get into, just for sake of selling multitude of adventures rather than making seperate settings for it
>Rapid fanbase

Personal problems I have with it.

>Perhaps it is out of fear that it would alienate 3.5 crowd, but some more major revamps were needed.
Those fears were fully justified. Just look at what happened to 4e.

I know. Doesn't make PF better game in my eyes - it's core principle is flawed.
Although I think they could have improved it immensely by addressing problems with feats and class-balance ( rather, class synergy )

my biggest gripe with pathfinder is the simple fact that late 3.5 splats fixed a lot of the problems with the system. Psionics, incarnum, weeaboo fightan magic; a game run with those instead of core was generally more balanced and fun.

The pathfinder devs had a chance to really improve 3.5 by using those systems and polishing everything, but they threw out genuine improvements and doubled down on the biggest flaws of the game.

It's terrible because it buys into the 3.X false dichotomy that things either have to be magic or not magic, and that not magic means realistic while magic means capable of anything.

Pathfinder is shit because the devs have neither the desire nor the ability to create balanced, interesting, and flexible content, and that they vehemently refuse to admit when they have clearly erred. On top of this, it's a 3.5 clone designed to appeal to people too stupid to just stay the fuck in 3.5; so what we have is a system that continuously perpetuates 3.5's biggest flaws (shit balance, trap options, retarded system math) while incorporating none of its improvements (psionics, weeaboo fightan magic) and having shown exactly zero progress.

That's certainly part of it.

Keep the incompetent Paizo designer forum posts coming my man

Get the PF hate train fueled up

Man, I can't even be mad at Paizo anymore. Pathfinder is the Birdemic of game systems; if you're angry at their incompetence you're taking things too seriously.

I had a bunch saved, but lost them. They were really good at expressing and justifying my hate for the game.

If anyone has the facebook post of a designer determining if a cord tied to a weapon would make recovering it a free action please post it. I find that level of incompetence so fucking enraging.

It's makes me angry because the most popular game on the market is being made by people who have no idea what their doing. They're getting rich despite being terrible at their job.

This is a really good point. I don't have much else to say, so have a picture of some guys boat jousting.

Nice image. Mind if I save it?

Found more.

Here we see how the crafting system is completely broken.

That in and of itself isn't the issue.
It's that they literally don't care when people report stuff that relate to actual issues.

What's this from? It reminds me of traditional venetian regattes, but it pretty obviously is unrelated.

>He thinks it takes two years to make plate armour

Jesus Christ on a bike. Yeah, it's a specialised job that takes a long ass time, but two years is ridiculous. You can make the cuirass alone in just three days.

And here they have no idea what type of game they're trying to make.

This kind of explains why it's all so fucked up. They don't know if it's supposed to be realistic or have things go superhuman and that seems to be where the shitty game design can't improve because they're so directionless.

>Google how long it takes to craft chain mail or full plate

Chain mail takes a skilled person about 50 hours, so about a week

Holy shit that guy's a fucking jackass

I know, that's why I was mindblown by the comment. It's especially stupid since crafting times scale with price, but the same is not true IRL. Chainmail takes longer to craft than 90% of the armor types on the equipment list, yet it's priced appropriately to its AC rating.
Honestly the problem is not even incompetence anymore, we've reached the level of willful ignorance.

Ah yes, the "A solid ball of gold takes longer to make than a solid ball of iron" problem.

This makes me so glad I avoided PF. What a fucking cockwomble.

Yeah, there's a lot of hate for SKR. Why they put him in charge of answering forum posts is beyond me.

Sean K Reynolds is a notorious retarded man baby.

That's precisely its appeal. It was made to appeal to people who, for one reason or another, like 3.x while disliking 4e. Being a product that's actively supported is more appealing than a product that won't get any more material published for it. Doesn't hurt that PF has the best legally available SRD, either.

Pathfinder is shitty, but this kinda looks like the guy was trying to reason with a bunch of retards.

>poster talks about a (theoretical?) Brawler, possibly his own character
>says he has +30 to HIS CMB, and it's impossible for HIM to succeed
>SKR proceeds to refer to the Brawler as a "she"

Might be nitpicking, but something about this conversation bothers me. I know that the iconic Brawler is a chick, but it's like if a player wanted to get feedback on his half-orc Shaman and suddenly one of the developers started talking about xhe and xhir dwarven hertiage.

Are they really so full of themselves that they can't even see how other people play their characters, and constantly see classes as those generic "iconics" from their cavalcade of poorly designed lore characters?

Wow, he's singlehandedly worse than the league guys put together.

Found more.

In this episode, SKR thinks you're wrong for expecting crossbows to be comparable to bows.

>when you think you couldn't dislike paizo any more but then the SKR hits your brain

Well, it wasn't ENTIRELY his fault. He was basically acting as the PR guy/mouthpiece for the entire design team. So it was his job to justify all the stupid shit everyone else did.

I don't understand it. He really isn't reading anything anyone posts. He just comes up with a snarky reply.

Paizo is so shit, don't understand why the dude is bitching about a trash class being able to do something though.

It's possible to justify people doing stupid shit without being a crying shrieking manchild that regularly closes threads when he's losing/doesn't understand an argument.

Speaking of which, here's some good screencaps of the lead designer!

Here he thinks catching a computer mouse = catching a weapon with a cord.

And then basing game design decisions off of that.

...

As a fucking idiot who regularly makes poor financial decisions, I purchased a dozen or so Pathfinder books back in the day, and now I desperately want to be rid of them. What the fuck can I do with these?

I was considering donating them, but it would be nice if I could get at least a little bit of my money back, but I'm starting to think that isn't very likely.

From what I've seen with real people using revolvers, the unrealistic thing with high-level gunslingers is they can't shoot as fast as sharpshooters in real life.

I also find it kind of hilarious that one set of classes is supposed to be "based on realism" while another can easily have a pocket dimension and the capacity to open a portal into heaven by muttering some nonsense words and telling some angels to do his laundry or else. If a level 20 fighter is a real-life swordsman level 20 magic should be leaving bat poop on people's doorsteps to give them bad luck the following day.

From what I've heard, someone built a water balloon-based fighter out of spite after this argument.

As it turns out, opium-based waterballoons are far better than crossbows at defeating the enemy.

Kindling for a campfire?

Here he is justifying class imbalance. At least he's polite.

Haha, that sucks. My old GM did that too and I think he deliberately ran more PF just because he wasted so much money on every book he could find. Try ebay or kijiji.

This is the big issue; Level 20 fighters shouldn't be a damn good swordsman or cavalier. They should be mother-fucking Hercules, or Bellephron.

This post always pushes me into a nightmareish rage from which there is no end.

Here he explains that 1) They refuse to slaughter sacred cows of 3.5 despite obvious balance issues and 2) They're so mired in the system they actually can't fix anything without tearing it all down.

Have you seen this one? Let the hate flow through you.

The best part of Pathfinder was the starting box, which was one of the best starting boxes in a long time for RPGs.

Do I play Pathfinder, no, as I am a GURPS, T&T, and B/X,1st,2nd edition D&D player, though 5th edition is fun too.

>Level 20
Do people really get that high without years of playing?

>They're so mired in the system they actually can't fix anything without tearing it all down.

To their credit, I reached the same conclusion when I foolishly set out to fix Pathfinder by establishing all sorts of house rules, including but not limited to:
>Armour as DR
>AC, attack bonus, saving throw, and CMB/CMD fixes
>reducing HP bloat
>a Tome of Battle inspired maneuver system that all martials would have access to
And so on. I set my notes aside because what I was making was an entirely new and completely different game and I might as well put effort into making that, rather than trying to use these good ideas to fix the unfixable.

>Level 20 fighters shouldn't be a damn good swordsman or cavalier. They should be mother-fucking Hercules, or Bellephron.
Motherfucking THIS.

What I'm curious about is if their science fantasy RPG is going to learn a goddamn thing from how long the balance discussion has been going on Pathfinder or if they will still make a space soldier whose abilities mostly go

>Level 1: Kill thing with gun
>Level 20: Kill thing REALLY HARD with gun

and the hacker and psychic guy go

>Level 1: Move a salt shaker and do something useful three times a day
>Level 20: Collapse a planet with the wave of a hand. Conjure meteors from dark space to smite enemy space ships and singlehandedly end battles against enemy fleets that were supposed to be a team effort as a swift action.

Some people (fags) start their game at a highet level.

Pathfinder/3.5 is just more fun.

Deal with it spergs.

But let's not forget that's the way its meant to be as we have to bind space guns to real physics and psychics aren't bound by anything because /magic/.

Guess I am too old school. anyways low level is where the fun is at.

NO! NO WE DON'T!

THESE ARE SPACE GUNS IN AN ABSURDLY HIGH-FANTASY UNIVERSE WHERE FTL TRAVEL INVOLVES RIPPING OFF AND GRAFTING CHUNKS OF HEAVEN AND HELL ONTO THE HYPERSPACE REALM OF AN AI THAT BECAME A GOD! GUNS COULD BE POWERED BY UNICORN FARTS AND SHOOT AROUND CORNERS! PEOPLE COULD IMPLANT DRAGON BLADDERS AND BE ABLE TO PISS SO HARD THEY PROPEL THEMSELVES THROUGH THE AIR WHILE RAINING ACID DAMAGE UPON THOSE BENEATH THEM!

THROW OFF YOUR CHAINS, YOU FOOLS, BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE! PHYSICS IS AN ILLUSION! BLACK IS WHITE! NIGHT IS DAY!

Eh, 3.5e was okay if you didn't have grognards trying to break it every-which way. 4e was okay for skirmishes, but I've been having a lot of fun with 5e so far. It's not perfect by any means, but hey.

Low Levels are fun due to challenge, but sometiems you jsut want to be able to do super-human bullshit and go full anime.

Your enjoyment of a thing does not make it good. By all means, you are allowed to enjoy whatever you like, but that enjoyment is not a defense when someone criticizes the quality of that thing. It's an empty statement that doesn't further anyone's argument.

>I like it! I think it's fun!
So what? What does that prove? It's meaningless in any sort of critical context, so don't bother.

This, as hard as I can.

Starting out as Joe the Town Guard or as Vargo the Mediocre is fine, but by the time I hit level 7 or 8 (or even 5), I want my warrior to be making a name for himself as a supreme badass. When he hits the low tens, my warrior should have a reputation for being unfuckwithable. When he hits the high tens, he's an unstoppable force of goddamn nature who makes dragons shit their pants when he unzips his dick. When I hit 20, my warrior should be a goddamn legend.

But no, can't do that, it's not realistic. It's not realistic in a world full of mages and dragons and elves and dwarves and flying cities and krakens and an enormous multiverse. It's not realistic, and clearly realism is the most important thing, right?

Pic related is what a level 20 fighter should be like: Motherfucking Bhishma, aka Gangaputra.

5th Ed is just 3rd lite. There is a reason they reverted back.

Last one. Not enraging, but still kind of stupid.

If you want a good example of 3.5 torn down and fixed look up FantasyCraft. It has armour as DR, those secondary stats are along a more reasonable and balanced progress, HP bloat is largely fixed, and martials are fucking badass with maneuvers being folded into feats.

I would not be at all surprised by that. I think their design team really is incompetent.

>Low Levels are fun due to challenge, but sometiems you jsut want to be able to do super-human bullshit and go full anime.

Very True

Because fans prefer the same shit over innovation?

>The wizard is his favorite class and the monk is his least favorite.

NO. I'd never have guessed!

When there is nothing left to innovate on pen, and paper. There is only fluff. DnD only keeps making new editions to keep selling books, and make money. They never innovate. 4th was terribly pigeon holed in it's own ways, while also being overly simplified to bring in new blood. It also aliened older players who grew up on 2nd Ed, ADnD, and 3rd Ed.

fpbp

>pathfinder
>a game in which the best fighter build is fighter 1 wizard 19

>people still butthurt about Pathfinder being more popular than there favorite game

You can't make this shit up folks.

That is a wizard build, or a hybrid. You can only call it a class build if it is the dominating features of that class. The only thing I see wrong with Pathfinder/3.5 is all you spergs cry about how broken the game gets at levels in certain classes. Cross classing for example will always get broken. If you let the books dictate everything you're allowed to do in your game. Then you are doing it wrong, not the game. The game is a guideline of rules, with stats to work off of.

Reminder, the final decisions are always up to the DM.

The DM shouldn't have to fiat in order to make sure whole classes actually see some use.

>I didn't read the post at all

>That is a wizard build, or a hybrid.
It was a fighter when it started at level 1. It's a fighter build, the wizard levels are there to supplement the core character.

Oh, is this the thread where I dump this folder, ok

The problem isn't "more popular than favourite game" the problem is that it's the only fucking game available in a store. Unless you've got a store dedicated to TRPGs every typical nerd store will have PF and 5e with nothing else. As a result, the average person is going to pick up PF and assume this is what all the games are like and it teaches bad habits and is an abortion of game design. Its overwhelming market dominance is a cancer on the whole industry.

...

If I'm going to fiat half of everything anyway, why am I bothering with the shitty rules at all?

But he's right you fucking sperg.

>4th was terribly pigeon holed in it's own ways, while also being overly simplified to bring in new blood.

Compared to 5e?

Because I'm pretty sure that it is both more complex and less pigeonholed.

...

Yes, they do. It is their job to know the game inside out. Being a DM is a responsibility, and not just a privilege. At every character creation since I started back in 1999. Our group has always had a strong and dedicated DM. Not perfect, but reasonable. He also believes in the rule of cool rule. I cannot comment on the number of times situations comes up where we would have a scuffle over certain rules, and outcomes by conflicting actions or opinions. It is up to the table, and the DM to all agree what can work when things simply do not "work".

...

...

He's right in that fun is important, but wrong in that balance doesn't exist. In his example, if a healer did only the equivalent of a band-aid's worth of healing while a character can slice hundreds of guys in half you can objectively say that the healer is useless. That measuring something is hard doesn't mean it is not to be attempted at all.

>Combat maneuvers are cumbersome

...And they thought their solution helped?

Actually, yes, that's a very large reason as to why PF is terribly designed. They chose to ignore feedback like "holy shit don't leave save or loses literally everywhere in the Wizard spell list" from people who actually knew what the fuck they were doing and instead went and jerked off while nerfing Rogues because tumbling into a flank is OP.

Also note the line about "SnB fighter intercepting enemies" being something he literally can not do.

>a few months
>emergency fixes
And yet the game is virtually identical and the parts they fixed are still broken. Wow, I thought they mostly just scrubbed the copyrighted material and went to print as fast as possible, but if this is true then that's just pitiful.

>If you want a good example of 3.5 torn down and fixed look up FantasyCraft.
This and Legend. If it wasn't for Legend's lack of pregenned monsters it'd be one of the top three d20 games hands fucking down.

Look dude, they spent most of their playtesting time jerking off about how right they were and banning people who gave feedback that didn't agree with them. I should know, I still have some of the alpha PDFs around.

>trying to rationalize your butthurt

Ha ha ha ha.

PF was doomed ever since D&D 5e turned out not to be desu.