"Martials shouldn't be as powerful as casters!"

Vibranium would be considered a magical material in any tabletop setting.
If you're saying martials all decked out with magical equipment should be able to fight magical characters of equal level, I agree in certain environments where the opponent can't magic-up the surroundings to their advantage too much. A wasteland, for example.
Besides, martials in most games gain muscle-magic in the later levels.

Really the question isn't whether or not martials should be as powerful as casters.

The actual question is "Should martials have as much fun as the casters?" to which the answer is yes. If the level of fun you are having is equal to the other players, your level of power is irrelevant. If you can't have fun without being equal to everyone else in terms of strength, you're better off playing systems that are designed with a heavy focus on balance.

Magic should be costing you entire stats at a time. You want to make a +3 sword? You better be willing to DIE in the process

You can argue all day about whether they should or shouldn't be, the fact remains that they AREN'T.

>"Martials shouldn't be as powerful as casters!"
Depends on the setting. D&D settings make it pretty clearly true and necessary, it would be retarded to pretend otherwise.
The issue is really one of genre. If you're going for high magic pseudo-realistic, there's no choices but to have caster editions. If you want balance, make it a low magic setting were spellcasting has real drawbacks or animeshit where everybody can fly around with enough training.

Non Herculean martials? In a fantasy game?

It's more likely than you think!

>marvel
>not a caster supremacy setting
Riiiiiight

Wipe that smug off.

Sure they aren't.

You can argue about one-trick ponies all you want, but if your one trick is strong enough, it's all you need.

Flex Mentallo was the inspiration for my 5E sorc-barbarian character.

and he made me start getting in shape

What is Thor?

All the casters in the movie are martials though.

Me again
May you miss interpret my post.
I was asking what actual class he would be.

High level Favored Soul or Cleric?

Fuck thor. Think of the hulk.

>Class bassed systems
>anything to do with a Supes game
He's a Martist with a bit of Brick thrown in and a bunch of powers bought via a single Foci.

>sorc barbarians

How's that insane AC?

>D&D settings make it pretty clearly true and necessary
Only depending on the edition m8, the martial/caster comparison is much different in 3.5/PF than in 4e

>After all, why do so many intellectuals become famous rich people while football players make millions a year and retire in their 20s?

ftfy

Make legit wizards NPCs.
If you want to cast spells, you supposed to be shit at it because you just started OR make it so you're an alchemist/ritualist at first levels then you get into magic.

If you actually cared about this, you'd just play FATE.

Of course magic is powerful, in the sense that it can do things otherwise considered impossible. Why else would people use it?
That doesn't mean magic has to be fast or convenient. If you double the casting time of every spell, casters become a lot more vulnerable, so it's not the end of the world if the effects of spells are overpowered.

>Which is better Casters or Martials?

>Bards.

>Vibraium
Do you mean, Hamon ?

Martials shouldn't be as strong as casters though.

Casters should be as strong as martials

>>/Conan/

Melee cleric (aka best cleric)

They should though, if you treat a martial like a caster for experience and level gains, you should also treat him equal for powerlevels and game utility.

A high level martial with a magical hammer and racial powers like super strength and resilience, earth and water control.

This.

Trying to beef up martials to DnD caster levels won't work except in the highest of highest of fantasy campigns.

The one and only solution to create balance again is to weaken casters- don't give them a one day nuke, because that's still shitty and creates it's own problems. Give casters less powerful spells, and keep martials the kings of damage.

Bam, it's that easy.

Also give martials more options that just "hey look I move this stick in a capable way".

Unless you're running a highest-of-high-fantasy-campaign.

Then you presumably want martials that belong.

>it's another butthurt martial thread

wew

Consider suicide

Whenever this topic comes up, you inevitably have people arguing, not inaccurately, that magic is always portrayed as the more powerful option.

Thing is though, there isn't actually any REASON for that beyond "magic is cool". Now, I'm not saying that being hit with a flaming meteor from the sky isn't going to hurt more than getting hit with a sword. I'm saying that there's no more reason for wizards to be capable of that than a swordsman figuring out how to shoot pressure waves by swinging his weapon. Magic can be as powerful or as limited as you feel like, and I'd rather play a setting where a truly high end ANYTHING is a ridiculous powerhouse. Just so long as they really work for it and earn that power.

SWAG OVERLOAD

Nah. Some of us want crazy highpowered games.

And for those games? I want non-shit martials.

In 2.5 the classes level at different rates, so while a level 20 Wizard is better than a level 20 Fighter he needs way more xp.

Free reign multiclassing was a mistake.

Well you can multi class and dual class in 2.5. It's just more complex.

Seconding. High-Power magic is animu/capecomic shit, it doesn't belong in classy classical fantasy. As, the old novelsthat D&D is trying to emulate. Failing badly in the process
If you really, really want high-powered, high-magic campaign (yuck) that makes at least basic sense you at least should have realized that martials don't belong there at all, long ago

Ahem.

Martials belong there just fine.

Pull your fucking head out of your ass and realize that supernatural =/= magic, and people can be just dandy like that. Look at the shit Beowulf or Hercules got up to, and they were martails you dense sack of shit.

>Fuck thor. Think of the hulk.
What is there to think about?
Monk/Barbarian

What are some pieces of fictional media where a mundane warrior overpowers a powerful magic user by the way of sheer willpower and strength?

>After all, why do so many intellectuals become baristas while football players become pro ballers and millionaires?

>literally any classic fantasy story with a martial as a main character

The most surefire way to become rich is to become at least a level 1 Expert and invest in index funds.

Watch some anime.

Conan

Warhammer fantasy has Sigmar beating both Nagash and Drachenfels, 40k has Leman Russ beating Magnus,

...

>can't do shit anymore without his loli witch

More like
>will kill the world if his loli witch doesn't stop him

Technically, he can still do lots of shit without her. But he'll end up dying afterwards.
More like:
>can't take off magical armor or die because of semen demon-induced damage

¡Exacto!

They should be better at murder amigo.

t. Anima

I am not talking solely about the armor which is magic anyway so it's not only brute force and willpower anymore but in general.

that's a retarded qualification, achilles had half-fey template, hercules had magical hide armor, etc.

Solomon Kane, which is written by the same guy who wrote Conan.

He overpowers a dark spirit/ghost of vengeance/something over the course of a night of wrestling with it, drawing on his inner reserves of willpower and faith (though not divine power - just faith in god/himself).

He also defeats multiple "casters," usually through his own dogged willpower and cunning, though casters in the Solomon Kane setting tend to be less powerful in the D&D sense. Magic takes a more ritualistic/curse based aspect in this setting.

Then there's the time he ruins an evil African ritual which was going to include the sacrifice of a virgin by shooting their totem skull thing with a flintlock pistol.

Not necessarily. For example, you know who's better than that easy-mode cheater Achilles?
Odysseus. Guy was actually hated by the gods, and faced odds far worse than Achilles.

Odysseus went through a ton of shit.

>hercules
>mundane warrior
Yeah, no

That is correct.

why should one be stronger or weaker than the other? it doesnt sound very fun to make one class significantly stronger than the other

>Odysseus

I wouldn't count diplomancers. Odysessus was low luck, high charisma.

Guy basically turned down Calypso because he was all "muh Ithaca"

Conan is the biggest example I can think of.
Hyboria's actually a neat starting point for caster/martial balance, as wizards usually have impressive but cumbersome abilities that are more crafty than direct. They tend to use illusions, weather manipulation, poison, summoning and mind control over out-and-out fireballs, which evens the playing field with dudes who have "reflexes like a panther" and stuff like that.

Merlin and Gandalf are used as examples of wizards why can't we use another demigod as example of martials?

Odysseus is basically Batman he has incredible amounts of plotarmor bullshit and preptime shenanigans

I the world FILLED with magic, strong enough fighters should go magical.
Why not let them breath fire?

Don't forget Patroclus. Plain-jane human warrior that led the fucking Myrmidons into battle at Troy, friend, lover and confidant of Achilles, killed the son of Zeus in battle and took three motherfucking gods to finally take down.

He also had a bow that could nail whole lines of motherfuckers to walls.

>D&D settings make it pretty clearly true and necessary
Considering that most D&D settings outright state that everything that exists is infused with magic in some form, it really doesn't.

>at least should have realized that martials don't belong there at all, long ago
>what are wuxia
>what are mythical heroes

No he wouldn't.

In fact he'd actually progress FASTER than the fighter at certain bits.

People who claim 2e was balanced are more and more an indication that 2e wasn't so much a game as it was an idea that a buncha people stuck house rules onto to the point people arguing about it is like a buncha scholars arguing the interpretation of old english texts.

>Odysseus
>hated by the gods
You talking about the guy who had his hand held and dick sucked by Athene 24/7, then Calypso, then Circe? Because I think you're talking about that Odysseus. Go read the Odyssey again (or, apparently, for the first time). Odysseus had one of the most powerful gods on his side backing him up the entire time, he wasn't outwitting them all on his own. Hell, they all agreed Poseidon was going too far and that he should be allowed to go home at the very start of the damn epic.

>playing fighter
>wizard keeps talking shit
>have mage slayer
>knock his teeth out

fucking nerds

The things achieved with intellect last forever. The things achieved with brute physical strength are usually just interchangeable grunt work conceived by a better person's intellect.

>No he wouldn't.
Is 750,000 XP not 'way more'?

He couldn't have just doused out the fuse?

>>have mage slayer
>wasting cross-class skill points to grab a shit feat
I'm sure your parents would be proud if they weren't dead as part of your '''''tragic'''''' backstory

well they shouldnt be as powerful as casters one is a man with a sword and the other can bend physics over the table and give it a right what for.

the ordinary fighter mans should not be mixing with MIGHTY WIZARDS thats more weeabo fightan majik flying sword ninja guys job and he is not a normal non supernatural man.

D&D people who even get a SINGLE level in a martial class are supposed to be exceptional warriors. A normal medieval knight is a level 1/2 fighter, a random pikeman is a commoner, anything further and you'd be looking at the creme de la creme. At some point in mid-level you cross the line and it gets into "mythological hero" level. THAT level of gross physical prowess is nowhere near easy to get. You're comparing Einstein to a normal soldier when you should be comparing Einstein to a SEAL

I reworked my setting so it was a helluva lot more balanced than D&D, and a pure martial versus a pure caster is still like Bruce Lee versus the Punisher.
You need an answer for when your opponent uses magic.
You just do.

That statement works both ways, moron. The railroad would not exist if you removed either the brute force that forged it or the minds that conceived it.

Okay Dr.Strange is part monk but dnd monks are just muscle wizards anyway.

> intellect lasts forever.
Tell that to Joe Shmuck, Masters in STEMfield working in McDonald's #123356

Not that Doctor Robert Doe #50281 barely staying alive on ramen and Monster while doing his research on quantum fucktronium is much better off

>don't give them a one day nuke

Doesn't matter how powerful you are if you have no endurance

Have you never heard of Alzheimer's?

Witcher, Conan, Soloman Kane, Harry Potter, Wheel of Time, Greek Myth, Norse Myth.

Just because you can jerk of and cast fireballs in the same hand doesn't make you immune to swords, or bullets, or a volley of arrows.