ROLL INITIATIVE!

>All characters state intentions and make their rolls before anything happens

The problem with this is: how do you determine who states their intentions first? Because the person to state intent first is at a disadvantage, and the person to state last gets to know what everyone else is going to do.

Can't say I'm crazy about a game where every character has the ESP power of "know what everyone else is gonna do before they do it."

Sorcerer: "Statements may be ammended freely until everyone is satisfied."

It's similar to the concept in Nobilis 2e that actions will happen when stated, but an infinite number of interruptions may occur. Initiative is for lesser beings.

No matter what you do, there will be some suspense of disbelief, either because everyone will have "ESP," or because someone can jump to their feet and run 20 feet to stab someone in the face before anyone else can react.

If you wanna really get into crazy initiative, look at Chain Reaction. The core is too big, so you can have 2d6 Sword and Sorcery.
The PDFs are available free. Please support the artist if you like it.

Group initiative with alternating phases ala B/X

What I love most about group initiative is that it keeps the group more engaged, instead of having some players dicking around when it's not their turn and having to be brought up to speed.

Classic Traveller had simultaneous resolution.

>Classic Traveller had simultaneous resolution.

How did it work?

Everyone kills each-other simultaneously during chargen.

OWoD had a system kind of like that. Everyone rolls initiative, then you declare actions in reverse order and execute them in order.

Street Fighter used cards to represent your moves and combos. Characters all choose the cards they're gonna play secretly, and then everyone shows their cards simultaneously. It's a good idea, but gets really unwieldy for the gamemaster if there's a large combat going on -- gotta keep track of and choose a lotta cards for a lotta NPCs.

>OWoD had a system kind of like that. Everyone rolls initiative, then you declare actions in reverse order and execute them in order.

So the person that gets the best initiative roll not only gets to know what everyone else is gonna do (in other words, he can see the future) AND he gets to act first? That's a double advantage! Jeez.

>Everyone kills each-other simultaneously during chargen.

Hardy har har. Seriously, I'm curious to know about

>Group initiative with alternating phases ala B/X
>What I love most about group initiative is that it keeps the group more engaged, instead of having some players dicking around when it's not their turn and having to be brought up to speed.

That is indeed an interesting proposition... Hmmm... What's "B/X"? I'd like to know more about this method.

Crimson Skies has players write down their movement in secret, then simultaneously reveal. It's hard to imagine doing that in a multiplayer RPG though, the system would be a huge clunk.

>Sorcerer: "Statements may be ammended freely until everyone is satisfied."
>It's similar to the concept in Nobilis 2e that actions will happen when stated, but an infinite number of interruptions may occur.

This sounds like it would take a lonnnnngggggg time.

>Initiative is for lesser beings.

Well, I can see why you'd say that... When the alternative is a system that gives the players precognition.

>No matter what you do, there will be some suspense of disbelief, either because everyone will have "ESP," or because someone can jump to their feet and run 20 feet to stab someone in the face before anyone else can react.

Not if full movement actions last until the player's next initiative comes up.

In any event, thanks for the PDF! Looking at turn order, it really is pretty crazy. Man.

I love the way Legends of the Wulin does it.

Initiative is rolled each round, which sounds like a chore, but the smart thing the system does is it adds lots of other actions onto the initiative roll.

In LotW, the way the dice system works you can perform multiple actions on a single diceroll, so while you assign your initiative score you use that same pool of dice for various utility actions, giving them a place in combat without forcing them to compete with attacks and so on in your primary combat roll. It works great.

Basic and Expert D&D

>Legends of the Wulin

Interesting! Based on this recommendation, I just DLed a copy of LotW. Gonna check out how they do it.

>Crimson Skies has players write down their movement in secret, then simultaneously reveal. It's hard to imagine doing that in a multiplayer RPG though, the system would be a huge clunk.

Yeah, that's sorta similar to the Street Fighter game's method. And yes indeed, really grind things to a crawl.

Word of warning. I love LotW to death, but the core book has utterly appalling editing. It can be a nightmare to figure out how things are meant to work. Once you smooth out the wrinkles it's great, but they published the game in a really unfortunate state.

Interesting. Thanks for the heads up. I'm reading their initiative section now.

What else, folks? Obviously, there's Hero system's method, where there are various phases in a turn, and depending on how high your speed is, you can act in certain phases. But god that's a lot of bookkeeping.

Glancing over that section it doesn't seem too bad, although it also forgets to mention that various styles have tricks that you can trigger on init as well.

I do still love the concept of Waves though. It's a really elegant way to handle interruptable utility actions in combat, declaring them on initiative and resolving them on your turn. It makes going faster than others a real advantage in terms of utility, even if the system doesn't particularly reward faster combatants in a pure combat sense.

>If you want to make combat quick and convenient, do initiative by sides.

Ohkayyyyyyy... But wouldn't you still have to have some way of determining who within a side goes first? Also, doing initiative by sides would seem to be awkward for any situation where it isn't simply one group versus another.

>If you want everything to be slow and the players to become slowly disinterested, do individual initiative.

This is how almost every game I've ever played (or read) works, so I think you're exaggerating the toxicity of this method.

>If you want initiative to matter, but don't want it to be slow, make an initiative roll. Anyone doing better than the enemy gets a "bonus" turn before the enemy acts... then do initiative by sides.

There might be some merit in this idea, but my original question still stands.

Phases. All actions within the same phase resolve simultaneously. How quick and acute you are affects how early a phase you can act in. How many actions you get is dependent on something other than quickness.

Something like Alternity or 7th Sea 1e.

>I do still love the concept of Waves though. It's a really elegant way to handle interruptable utility actions in combat, declaring them on initiative and resolving them on your turn. It makes going faster than others a real advantage in terms of utility, even if the system doesn't particularly reward faster combatants in a pure combat sense.

Okay, having read the section through... You weren't kidding when you said it's hard to figure out how things are supposed to work. I don't really understand this Waves thing.

>Phases

So sorta like then?

>All actions within the same phase resolve simultaneously.

But doesn't this lead us back to territory? Specifically:

>The problem with this is: how do you determine who states their intentions first? Because the person to state intent first is at a disadvantage, and the person to state last gets to know what everyone else is going to do.

In this case, what everyone else acting in the same phase is going to do.

I'll see if I can clarify things, starting from the top.

LotW uses a dice pool system but instead of only looking at a portion of the dice pool, all of it is potentially usable. Every individual die or set of die showing the same number can be used to perform actions, with some limitations.

On the initiative roll, assigning your speed value for the turn is the primary action, but you can do numerous other things, including making a Wave.

Making a Wave just means choosing a set of dice, adding a skill or stat modifier to it, and declaring what it's for. All waves are declared on initiative so each combatant knows what waves are resolving during that round.

When it comes to your turn in initiative order, any Waves you made resolved. This makes going first a real advantage, since nobody has a chance to break your Waves. If you don't go first, however, every opponent who takes their turn before you can use some of the dice they roll to attempt to Break your Wave- If they can beat your total, then they interfere with your action and your Wave doesn't resolve.

Like a lot of things in Legends of the Wulin, Waves are left very open to interpretation. While moving around and messing with the environment are the core uses of it, it's a general tool for the player or GM to use to represent any number of different utility actions in combat which aren't targeting an opponent.

Pic source?

I rather like the LOTW way. I

nit is a roll like any other and the actual init is your Primary Action (You have to allocate dice to it but you can also use a single die if you want). On top of that there is Waves, anything you want to do that reasonably could be interupted by another person. Changing zones, putting out a fire or pushing a non-combatant out a window to his death are all waves.

You nominate your waves on init but they don't take place until your turn comes up. So anyone faster than you can attempt to break your wave on their turn.

It gives a bonus to init other than just 'goes first'. Fast people are the best a keeping other people from moving or making actions other than 'Fight you'.

What about systems where initiative is a set stat that's modified by circumstance/buffs/debuffs? I've only played in systems where it wasn't a mechanic or a rolled item.

>What about systems where initiative is a set stat that's modified by circumstance/buffs/debuffs?

But that means, generally, you always know when who's gonna go when. And that makes for weird tactical and strategic decision-making. Plus it's kinda boring, IMO...

>I've only played in systems where it wasn't a mechanic or a rolled item.

Gosh! I should think that would be the minority.

GURPS has your turn order set by your Basic Speed, and doesn't involve any rolls unless you have PCs with both the same Basic Speed and the same DX.

in a system with counterattacks AND automatic firearms, initiative is important whenever there is an enemy suddenly walking around the corner. the one with the advantage can either jump back into cover, try to disarm or take a shot at the opponent, while the other one can try a counterattack with reduced precision

You could add in that actions can be amended at the start of your turn, with no table talk between.

In Cyberpunk 2020 I used a pretty complex system vaguely based on Shadowrun and heavily inspired by The Matrix.

Basically everyone involved in the combat rolls for initiative. This would give a score ranging from 2 (REF 1 and 1 on initiative roll) to 60 (fastest solo in the world with REF 10, Combat Sense +10, Hardwiring 200% Boost +3d10 and 10 on initiative roll). Then, everyone performs one action per round per 5 points of initiative. If you get a score of 27, you can act at 27, 22, 17, 12, 7 and 2. If you get 13, you can act at 13, 8, and 3. If you have 3, you can act at 3. Etc. Once everyone has performed its actions, the round is finished and initiative is rerolled.

I use a system in my OSR games that works pretty well. When combat begins, players make an initiative test (have to roll under their initiative bonus + 10). Those who succeed can go in any order, then all the monsters go, then the players who failed.

>In Cyberpunk 2020 I used a pretty complex system vaguely based on Shadowrun and heavily inspired by The Matrix.
>Basically everyone involved in the combat rolls for initiative. This would give a score ranging from 2 (REF 1 and 1 on initiative roll) to 60 (fastest solo in the world with REF 10, Combat Sense +10, Hardwiring 200% Boost +3d10 and 10 on initiative roll). Then, everyone performs one action per round per 5 points of initiative. If you get a score of 27, you can act at 27, 22, 17, 12, 7 and 2. If you get 13, you can act at 13, 8, and 3. If you have 3, you can act at 3. Etc. Once everyone has performed its actions, the round is finished and initiative is rerolled.

Having played a metric ton of Cyberpunk, this post is relevant to my interests. I can see you use a fair amount of house rules (that 3D10 is unfamiliar), but your method makes a certain amount of sense.

>Pic source?

kazarashi.deviantart.com/art/TF-DOTM-s-Mexican-Standoff-312821686

Interesting. I appreciate the explanation. I think I'm getting it... I think?

My main source of confusion is the idea of a Wave being some kind of interaction with the environment. That makes me wonder what ISN'T a Wave?

Running over to a dude, grabbing him, and chucking him through a window would be a Wave for sure... But what about just shooting him? Or throwing a shuriken at him?

Maybe the basic idea is that a Wave is a "Combo"? Or, if one prefers, "doing more than one thing"?

Throwing a guy through a window wouldn't be a wave. The system explains it badly, but Waves are when you're exclusively interacting with the environment. If you're targetting an opponent in any way, such as defenestrating them, then that'd be an action you take on your combat turn, not a wave.

However, breaking a window or clearing a blockade to reduce the difficulty to leave a zone (or barricading a window to stop someone climbing back in, increasing it) would be a Wave.

I had someone use a Wave in the past to electrify a metal roof, forcing people to leave the zone or suffer ripples for staying in contact with it. While that did affect opponents later, the action only affected the environment itself and they had a chance to respond, so it seemed reasonable.

It's a rather wibbly thing that's intentionally left open to interpretation to allow you to do a lot with it.

Has anyone used a system like the casting stack in Magic the Gathering, "first in, last out"?

not that I know anything about MTG in the last decade

Hmm. I see. I think. Hmm.

Interrupting another player's action is a function built into Fuzion's initiative rules.

(Fuzion is R. Talsorian's house system, basically a modified version of the Interlock system, iterations of which were used in Cyberpunk, Mekton, and Teenagers from Outer Space.)

Roll it when things get tense and there might be fighting.

Reroll it each turn-cycle so people don't get too comfy in their initiative order.

WoD does it, at least in some version of the rules - you announce actions from the lowest initiative then resolve them from the highest.

Initiative is the one thing I don't really dig about the new edition of delta green/coc in general. RAW, you just go in order of dex. I'd like a mechanic that switches it up every turn, that seems like it would make battle far more hectic. Maybe a 2d10 roll, or a d10+dex?

>WoD does it, at least in some version of the rules - you announce actions from the lowest initiative then resolve them from the highest.

Understandable... But again, that leads to the problem of every character in the game knowing what everyone else is going to do. ESP for everyone!

>I'd like a mechanic that switches it up every turn, that seems like it would make battle far more hectic. Maybe a 2d10 roll, or a d10+dex?

Agreed. thinks that rolling individual initiative makes everything slow and the players become gradually disinterested. I don't think so, and yeah -- hectic is good.