Can Somebody Explain the Appel/Function of Alignment?

Well then smart ass name 3 other D&D unrelated, common systems that use it.

Also OP clearly was talking about D&D, as he named shit right out of it.

>The sliding scale of morality has only become popular in recent years and not incorporated into the design.
Nigga you what. The debate on the concept of morality is as old as fucking stone axes.

I thought it fit the theme well. Angelic-like being with a demon.

Reading comprehension nigger, do you have it.

Alignment is 9 regions, not 9 points you maroon.

Not him, I can't name three, but I do know that Palladium Fantasy has its own set of 9 alignments.

Isnt it vampire with werewolf?

...

It's a reflection of character and a guideline, nothing more.

People that use it as a straight jacket are categorically wrong, and anyone who has said "you can't do that, your alignment is X" needs to be sent to the Gulag

because it has mechanical benefits. your morality gives you buffs and makes you the target of certain spells "good" and "evil" are quantifiable in the D&D world

>Still doesn't name any
>Uses Wikipedia as an authoritative source
Nice try little troll, but your bait is weak.

Do you have any fucking idea just how easy it is to mask your alignment.

Detect evil is for finding evil not checking people.

As for all that shit about corupt paladins and sadists i think you are just to jaded

Werewolves have four arms and wings?

Maybe it's a were-raven/insect hybrid?

>posts annotated source
>unacceptable
Then you're as stupid as OP is and beyond help. Stop playing RPGs forever.

You lying little shit, you didn't post any source and just said "it's on a wiki somewhere so it's true".
Go eat a bag of dicks you cunt.

vaatividya.tumblr.com/post/132642761247/knightofleo-artem-demura-forever-my-queen

>posts annotated source
where?

Alignment is a statistic that represents how certain arcane and divine effects interact with you.

Nothing more.

If you argue with this, you are a pedophile.

>Linking to that sellout whore's tumblr where he reposted the image instead of the artist's webpage
You disgust me.

If an annotated source is not acceptable, then you are an illiterate moron who can't be bothered to think for yourself.

Each and every entry states the game that the alignment system is from, how it works, and if that isn't enough for you, then nothing can be.

That's why Veeky Forums is fucking morons.

>oh gog, no, not something I have to read, Veeky Forums tells me everything I need to know about everything!

And that why it is you who are idiots and not the alignment system.

I may be a pedophile, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

>Still pretending to have posted a source when he has not
Kindly go sodomize yourself with a rusty signpost.

>reading is haaaaaaarrrrrd

You did not post a source
Yes there is nothing wrong with wikipedia but you have not linked to wikipedia you have not linked to anything.

For most people it is, though you seem to lack the basic intelligence required to read your own posts and notice the glaring lack of any posted source.

Because I can read.

Search: alignments in roleplaying games
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_(role-playing_games)

You're welcome.

That's because you're an illiterate moron on Veeky Forums who can't be bothered to fucking read or think.

Oh look, some idiot is spoonfeeding you all, how nice of him.

Are you feeling ok user

You lack the basic ability to use the internet to look up something as simple as alignment in roleplaying games.

What does that say about your intelligence?

>I don't have to defend my claims! You are just stupid for not finding the nonspecific sources for information I use to backup my claims. I'M RIGHT AND YOUR WRONG STUPID!!!!

I'm sorry the fact you are clinically retarded makes simple like the burden of proof hard to understand, but it's no excuse for acting like this on the internet.

No, I'm tired of people using Veeky Forums's "this is what Veeky Forums says so it's true" bullshit about every game concept ever. If anyone here had EVER bothered to READ the rules of alingment and how theyre used - ESPECIALLY in AD&D - they would call the OP a moron as well.

Buth they cant even be bothered to type a few words into a search engine to figure out that yes, there are in fact multiple alignment systems in multiple games not just D&D. But hey, who am I to point out their utter and complete passive acceptance of Veeky Forums's stupidity especially when they cna't be bothered to read the first like which is "

>you're clinically retarded because I can't read
Sure user. You can't be bothered to understand if you google "alignment in roleplaying games" you can find a list of games with alignments in them.

That is surely because I'm the retarded one.

Illiterate prick.

There's nothing in there that proves his points though, basically he's saying that the definition of alignment is what the person writing the wiki article decides it is (apparently from reading the article anything codified which affects character behavior, including mental diseases, can be counted as an alignment system).

It's absolutely ridiculous, It's redefining the term alignment to have a huge broad scope and then claiming, "I'm right because this new definition can be applied to nearly anything and therefore alignments don't have the specific drawbacks you are complaining about".

>It's not my fault I won't do what I'm obligated to do in order to construct an argument, it's your fault you big meany ;_;

Lol, okay, whatever you say dimwit.

And you lack the ability to link your own sources.
What does that say about your intelligence?

Did the fact that you can't read the first sentence mean that you aren't able to understand basic English? Google alignment in games, you get a list.

Pretty simple really. But no, it's much eaiser to say "/'tg' says this."

but hey, more power to you for remaining ignorant and not using a simple, easy to grasp tool to do your own fucking research on alignments in games other than D&D.

You are why Veeky Forums is shit now. Because all you can do is parrot what people tell you.

For someone who hates it when people rely on "Veeky Forums says this" with no proof, you do an awful lot of insisting that what you say on Veeky Forums is absolutely correct with the same lack of proof.

I just grabbed the address from google.

>Not knowing to skip any tumblr google links to since they are all "reblogged" pictures that give 0 fucking source most of the time
You incense me.

ok, so, I hear your criticisms but I also think they're largy of the apple to oranges kind.

D&D as a game draws its crunch from wargames of previous eras.It wasnt the first game to use dice to figure out if your dude hit another dude. That's why the first modules were all packaged dungeon crawls.

D&D was also made by christians and because of that it has objective morality baked into the system. The Alignment system allows for mechanics to interact with this objective crunchafied morality.

If you cant make a believable good character or evil one then thats your fault as a player. Alignment is a tool in your toolkit, have fun with it.

D&D is a dungeon crawling game where you kill dragons and loot their stuff so you can kill more dragons and loot better stuff.

RP and nuance were never very important parts

But there's no such thing as a purely good person, nor a purely evil person. Hell ESPECIALLY if it's based on Christianity this should factor in, as the entire reason why people are baptized is to wash them clean of the original sin. And even then the religion is heavily structured around the concept that humans are twisted beings and corrupted, sinning constantly and it is through Christ that they are redeemed and washed of sin upon death.

There's no dramatic fall either- nobody just instantly plunges into a depraved murderous monster instantaneously, but slowly slips downwards from greatness, and typically never does so for themselves, but for somebody or something else. Macbeth is a good example of this.

>Appeal of Alignment?
>Function of Alignment?

I can't answer for the function of alignment because my only experience is in 5e, where alignment mechanics are limited.

But I'll try my best to answer the 'appeal of alignment', at least for me.

I think one of the greatest appeals for alignment is how it allows you to categorize characters into a 'type' in the same way pokemon have 'types'. You can group a series characters or concepts - and contrast them by moral alignment in the traditional LG to CE axis. There's a certain joy in grouping characters that would otherwise have nothing to do with each other, and compare and contrast their actions/intentions with their alignment in their respective series. This is a great guideline for running characters in D&D, and it helps as a linchpin for how your character interacts with the world, using those other characters as inspiration. Alignment in D&D is more to me than just a moral stance, it's how the character carries themselves in a conversation, makes assumptions, and what they value as important. Again, not just what is right or wrong.

Is it simplistic? Yes - but there is definitely an appeal to the simplistic nature of alignments and how they are used in RPGs. Further more, I don't believe the simplistic nature of alignments has to inhibit the nuance of characters with a mixture of ethical dilemmas or societies more grounded in reality than fiction. Alignments are suppose to be descriptive, and so ideally the character's alignment should match their true intentions or perspective rather than what they're 'suppose' to believe in the eyes of other characters.

Then again, sometimes you just want the heroes to be heroic and the monsters to be monstrosities, without all the messy trappings of grey morality. An irredeemable bastard is just as fun to fight as a tragic villain depending on what you're looking forward to in the session.

Almost every post in this thread is fucking cancer. Come on, Veeky Forums, you're better than this.

As for you, you mixed up your major and minor premise as far as Paladin (LG) Orders are concerned:

It isn't 'Paladin Orders are Human Organizations. Human Organizations have evil people in them. Therefore, Paladin Orders have evil people in them."

This is because of the nature of a Paladin, a prerequisite to being a part of such an order, is thusly: 'Paladins are Good Guys. Good Guys aren't despicable pieces of shit. Therefore, Paladins aren't despicable pieces of shit.'

Add in the fact that the one who does the 'Falling' of the Paladin is, in fact, his/her God (ie, the arbiter of morality for the Paladin), and NOT the Order, and shit doesnt work how you described.

5e fixed alignments so that thee are no more bullshit meta effects of alignment in the game except for the most extreme circumstances like "the goodly good weapon of legend."

I hate 3.5/Pathfinder Paladins because they are just metagaming machines with no other personality besides being stupidly LG built into the class. Smite and detect affecting alignments, alignment DR, etc. are all bullshit that is completely unacceptable in a roleplaying game.

>Paladin Orders shouldn't all be righteous characters of some variety of good or neutral alignment, but include sick bastards without them being "fallen" simply because no organization is comprised of pure individuals. Some people sign up for an army because they want to defend their nation- other people enlist for a war because they're sociopathic sadists looking for a career that will tolerate their twisted behavior. Likewise not all Liches should be some Saturday morning cartoon villain like fucking skeletor, as there's a shit ton of reasons why somebody would search for immortality at any cost, and not necessarily for self-service, but to achieve something greater.
yes they should

The point/function of alignment is that it defines the D&D cosmology. The warring planes and gods are defined by their alignments and their relationship to other alignments. This is the only legitimate use of it.

>function
It's for spells.

Same reason we got creature types and subtypes. It adds some variety to the encounters and prevents spells from being too universal.

>doesn't name 3

You make a fucking argument, you back it up.

That simple, faggot.

Alignment is one of several weird ideas early D&D had because they were still figuring things out, and subsequently sustained on inertia alone. At this stage people defend alignment because it's familiar and no other reason. Even if you wanted alignment at all (and having characters sorted into clearly defined teams is a defensible choice for a dungeon crawling game), you wouldn't want the system that D&D has, specifically. Like, the MtG color wheel isn't without controversy, but if you tell someone you're white alignment, they have a much better idea of what specific ideals your character believes in than if you tell them you're Lawful Good.

pic without censor bars please

Making them irrelevant isn't fixing, it's admitting they're worthless

The thing is that even the irredeemable bastards of reality are not spawned because they are truly awful, but made evil by circumstance that, were any other man put in, would probably suffer the same fate. It's not grey morality, it's just that humans are neither redeemable bags of shit, nor are they paragons of righteousness. Nobody turns to evil because they want to chop off heads and destroy everything, not unless they're literally insane or have succumbed to mob mentality. They are corrupted and fall because their pursuit of what they viewed right led them on a twisted path.

I heavily reccomend anybody interested on the subject look up Henry the Second. He's a good example of somebody who really defies any "alignment" because depending on your station in life, his actions look completely different. On one hand he was one of the greatest Kings of England and solidified the power of the kingdom, expanded its borders, and abolished much of the absurd, illogical practices in favor of true legal might with courts and judges. On the other hand he was a tyrant who consolidated power heavily, refused to share it with his sons while he lived, and ended up ripping his family apart and causing the death of his eldest boy in civil war. He's lawful good to the common man, but lawful evil to the nobles and family caught up in the family drama that spilled into civil war twice.

Alignment is the measure of one's soul and where its final resting place among the outer planes will be. Ones alignment has certain effects while alive and its interactions with certain magics. Detect Evil is the most commonly known of these things, but many don't know how it actually works. Detect Evil works by detecting the amount of sin upon a person's soul, the greater the sin and power of the soul, the stronger the aura that is presented when using the spell. It only works on humanoids that have not pledged their souls to evil gods after 5 HD or levels. Before that they are undetectable as evil, or good or chaotic or any of the other soul detection spells.

And your apparently among the many fools who look at the alignment system and think its about proscribing one's actions instead of merely being a description of the current state of your soul. Each action you take changes and shapes the state of your soul, staining with it the sin of evil, purging it and making it exult in the pureness of good, ordering it and aligning yourself with law, or twisting it into a disordered state of chaos. Paladin orders are filled with people whose souls are pure, having never fallen to evil or having been redeemed, and have been touched by a Good god and given special power that flows from that god. A paladin order is specially trained and overseen by literal gods and as such they root out corruption and evil quickly within their ranks, at least of the more foolish and shortsighted evil types. It is a monumental task to get into a paladin order, not merely some simplistic martial order of soldiers.

Liches are all evil by necessity of the ritual they undertake to become liches. It involves a clear and massive act of soul staining evil with full knowledge of what you are doing, the murder and cannibalization of the heart of an innocent humanoid.

> t's lazy, basic, and complete watering down of morality along with basically throwing away good plots and characters by allowing shit like "detect evil" to even exist.

> Lazy
Efficient

> Basic
Simple

> Complete watering down of morality
... simple again.

> complete throwing away of good plots by things like "Detect Evil"
1) Doesn't work on non-divine characters of lvl 4 and less.
2) Basic spell hides alignment for 24 hours.
3) Items hide alignment.
4) Spells and effects give appearance of other alignment.

> Not having the smite-triggered paladin attack an NPC he detected on his last round of Infernal Healing to trigger a side-quest of regaining paladinhood.
A DM who makes a good Pathfinder campaign is like a chef who makes delicious and nutritious meals out of whatever he finds in the toilet bowl.

It's like running a marathon with a bag full of rocks.

Not everyone will achieve results, but those who do become GODS.

>Liches are all evil by necessity of the ritual they undertake to become liches. It involves a clear and massive act of soul staining evil with full knowledge of what you are doing, the murder and cannibalization of the heart of an innocent humanoid.
I can easily think of numerous scenarios where that is a wholly justifiable action. You often have to commit minor acts of evil for greater acts of goodness.

The way I see it, it's less of a strict ruleset and more of a character building/roleplay tool. Or at least, it should be. If you're forcing yourself to act in a very specific way because of your alignment as opposed to "What would my character do in this situation", you're doing it wrong.

And committing that act of evil isn't some minor thing. It's a soul wrenching act of evil that makes them aligned with a demon lord who literally provided that ritual.

In addition, in the alignment system, there is no such thing as the greater good. There is only good actions and evil actions. Do you take an evil action now? yes/no. If yes, your soul is stained with evil even though it might have a beneficial (not good, no good comes from evil) act in the future. If you don't like this, well tough shit buttercup. Man up, take the action and hit to your soul's purity and get back out there.

And as the common saying goes "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

This is why it's so fucking hard to be a paladin.

>not good, no good comes from evil)
See, this is why this entire way of thinking is completely retarded and makes no god damn sense except in fantasy that seeks to completely fee any sense of realism. MOST good is spawned from minor acts of evil. Leaders especially typically must fuck somebody over in order to benefit their own people. Man only got the moon on the back of genocide. Abraham Lincoln didn't really give a flying shit about black people besides slavery (which he viewed as religiously abhorrent) and wanted to deport them all to Liberia.

Alignments are based entirely upon deontological morality, and ignores utilitarianism which under alignments is either evil or blue and orange morality despite it being a completely human and understandably way of thinking in the real world.

>Alignments are based entirely upon deontological morality
Okay, so?

The whole point of a Paladin order is to not include sick murder-heads you dunce

But those people will be attracted too and inevitably part of any organization. Just because it's an order of paladins shouldn't mean that it's full of idiodic true good goody two shoes individuals like it's out of a 1960's justice league show with no nuance. Just because somebody is in a good organization shouldn't mean they are actually a 'good person', that's idealism to the point of blindness. The Wither is a pretty good example of how well written paladin orders should work.

here you go
artstation.com/artwork/985DN

When you say "purely good" and "purely evil" what do you mean?

I might not have made myself clear. When I wrote "objective morality" I ment as opposed to a "subjective" morality. The good that happens in D&D is called good because in the minds of the original creators, there was Good and Evil. Full stop. End of discussion.

The OP's question was what the appeal and function of the alignment rules were, not if they map out into real life. I tried to explain why D&D has the alignments it has, not justify them.

Palladium has good alignments just because they actually define what they are are. But whenever I play a palladium game we usually just pick anarchist alignments because pillaging too good

It's an integral part of the mechanics and cosmology of D&D that can't be removed without massively changing either. If you're utterly unable to play them then you're likely not someone I'd even want in my game due to your inability to keep a consistent character, which is what alignments primarily ask for. Just play a different game and be happy with that or find an alignment you can easily play without issue. Neither should be difficult.

If you're thinking about alignments in the first place beyond character creation, you're probably doing something wrong.

theyre supposed to be a quick way to describe your characters personality.

theyre inferior than a simple list of pointed descriptive words, like selfish, loyal, and whimsical. perhaps come up with a detailed list of keywords to use.

>It's an integral part of the mechanics and cosmology of D&D that can't be removed without massively changing either.
How'd 5e do it?

by keeping alignment, as well as having "unaligned" for things like dogs

But alignment doesn't do anything. It has no mechanical impact anymore.

its still integral to the cosmology. only the mexhanixal impact has been lessened.

>It's an integral part of the mechanics and cosmology of D&D that can't be removed without massively changing either.
>except you can remove all mechanical impact without massively changing anything

>thinks hes quoting one person, rather than two separate people with nonidentical views

Alright, so the original D&D alignment comes from the works of Anderson and Moorcock who was influenced by the former. There's only one axis, law-chaos, and it literally means your allegiance to one side or another in terms of cosmic balance, without neccesarily defining your personality or morality. Which is how I like my alignment.

Now, Gygaxian alignment is another thing entirely and like many things in AD&D, it benefits from some of his comments.

"Paladins are not stupid, and in general there is no rule of Lawful Good against killing enemies. The old adage about nits making lice applies. Also, as I have often noted, a paladin can freely dispatch prisoners of Evil alignment that have surrendered and renounced that alignment in favor of Lawful Good."

"Mercy is to be displayed for the lawbreaker that does so by accident. Benevolence is for the harmless. Pacifism in the fantasy milieu is for those who would be slaves. They have no place in determining general alignment, albeit justice tempered by mercy is a NG manifestation, whilst well-considered benevolence is generally a mark of Good."

The original perspective helps and shows that this alignment does have some nuance to it, but it's still pretty limiting. Extrapolating this system to a cosmic scale (The Great Wheel) and stuff like alignment languages also complicates the matter.
To use alignment effectively, you need to define each and every component of the system. It's a hassle with 9 alignments, much easier to do in the original system. Two sides of the coin is a concept that just works, easy to make it as rigid or as flexible as you need it to be (cont.)

I ran a game where various actions brought metaphysical forces' attention to the players, with both benefits and drawbacks. Those actions had to be significant for this to work, so various small errors in judgement and morally gray characters were possible. But sometimes they just had to pick a side or not choose at all. It's pretty fun when you've put some thought into it.

Here's an example, LotFP alignment system which is what i'm talking about. Under this every magic-user and creatures of magic like elves are aligned to Chaos, while cleric are always aligned to Law representing the divine order.