How can a villain make things personal without killing a PCs loved ones...

>Making good characters that the players actually like is lazy
Do you know how much work it is to fucking make engaging and fucking real feeling characters, protip: It's really fucking hard.

I need context.

Read the fucking thread. Killing them off for cheap drama is lazy. The work it takes to make good characters is what makes it wasteful.

Betrayal, humiliation, gloating.

Unless your PC doesn't give a shit about that.

Speaking of which, why is always a big deal that the main villain is related to the main character? If they never interacted before, why should it matter? It's just a stranger with slightly similar DNA.

If watching/reading something good was the same thing as creating something good, everyone would be a writer.

Before anyone asks, sauce is Strike the Blood.

Try having a character that one ups the party, outsmarts them.

Rather than killing his characters family, have the villain humiliate his character.

Do shit that creates actual animosity between the villain and your characters.

Spoon feed them scenario where they "do good" and feel like heros, only to find out they were really just being unwitting patsies in grander scheme.

Make your villain earn their hate by having him be their better.

>Loved one is villain, and PC caused that without knowing
>Loved one is villain's pen pal, have an awkward dinner together when they have a meet up
>Loved one marries villain, they're happily together

If that kind of thing doesn't help you, how can a random post here?

How else do you claim to be able to make people care? Characters that the players care about being fucked around with is the surest way to the player's heart, no ifs ands or buts.

Fucked around with? Sure.

Killed? Nope.

Killing a character is an end. It's taking a useful resource for plot hooks and engagement and getting rid of it. And without proper setup, the death won't even have that much impact anyway.

You can do so, so much more by keeping them alive and actually putting some thought into ways their lives are affected by a villains actions. It doesn't even have to be direct!

Take their stuff
Undo their accomplishments
Call their waifus shit
Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit

Villain stole their equipment.

Have them step on the PC's personal goals.

This might seem like something of a cop out at first glance, but you can do this just by letting the villain be the villain. I mean, the villain IS a villain by nature of what he or she does or behaves somehow. The PCs don't even enter the picture until they make themselves known as a threat to their plans. Let things escalate as the PCs get increasingly involved. It will eventually become a competition.

Play them like a damn fiddle.
Think Gnome Conspiracy in Arcanum.

>Killed? Nope
I disagree, they shouldn't be killed off every time you want to start something, but it is effective when used in small doses. Something like death is real and final and effects the players a lot more than most anything else.

When it comes to getting what you want, blackmailing loved ones is just as effective as killing. Give the villain something to hold over the players' head and see how much they care for the livelihood of their close ones, like blocking the PC's daughter from getting into that super-prestigious high school you wanted for them, or leaking compromising photos of their wife onto the web.

Death is an effective tool, yes, but I think in this kind of thread it's worth deemphasising it and looking at the alternatives due to how often bad GMs misuse and overplay character/NPC death.

The problem here is that people think you need the villain's evil nature to matter to the PC, but that's not how it fucking works.

The PC is as fictional as the villain, they're both parts of the story and neither operates on any observable level of believability other than what you and your players are willing to give them.

What you need to aim for isn't the Player character, it's the player himself. Most players nowadays are pretty jaded to "he killed my dad" storylines because they're fucking everywhere and few of them have enough tact and preparation to feel like anything other than shitty tearjerkers.

So don't bother killing off characters your players don't care about in real life, because all you'll do is get a groan from them unless they're truly willing to submerge themselves into the character, which few people can do.

Instead of trying to appeal to the player's emotions, why not appeal to their morality? You can kill any number of badass uncles and get no response, but if the player thinks rape is abhorrent then just hinting at it might be enough to get them involved. Have the villain stand at the opposite end of the player's political spectrum and watch them flip when he declares that he'll segregate different races and implement universal healthcare.

In the end it's hard to give you an exact answer since this mostly depends on what your culture values and what your players consider sacred and inviolable. Getting a good response from them requires knowin when to be tactful and when to go all out, but doing that in real time is hard and you need good storytelling skills to piece it together

Good luck in any case.

The villain could rape the PC.

I kind of thought since OP was talking about backstory NPCs, which really don't actually usually engage the player at all on an emotional level. They exist to be killed off, which is why I suggested new NPCs being used, rather than the lame attempts at engaging a player through their characters history.

As if we need MORE characters with rape in their backstory.

Gonna need some.

In a game of Shadowrun I GMed, I had a government agent call out a PC on deserting the armed forces after being framed for the death of his squad. The NPC was pretty damning, to the point where a couple of the other players (who weren't even in the scene) started calling him on it, saying it's fucked up how he acted. That started to get to him.

Framing them for crimes they never committed. Spreading rumors about them. Targeting their interests. Destroying their sense of safety and privacy. Turning their friends and family against them.

Paranoia is more effective than straight torture or murder.

...

> the villain sell one of the PCs friend as a slave. Quest unlocked: find and rescue our loved one, possibly in a faraway country, while the villain complete his doomsday device.

> The villain drink a youth potion, and try to seduce and date one of the PCs daughter. Witch he will break her heart, transform, and repeat his scheme. Quest Unlocked: The PCs have now to found the villain, punch him hard enough, without breaking the teenage daughter heart, or her knowing about all that.

> Those last two Quest Unlocked : do not ruin/survive the family gathering.

> This. Quest unlocked : prove the innocence of the loved one, find who farmed them, catch the villain

> curse or give a disease to a loved one. Quest Unlocked: collect the ingredients to lift the curse/cure said loved one, within a certain time limit, to prevent death and/or the curse to become permanent.

Evil isn't always murder left and right and killing puppies; sometimes it's as simple as taking the selfish, risky option. The kind people would keep secret.

The trick to making bad guys engaging is to make it personal, and the direct approach can be fun, but is just a hammer in a whole box of tools.

Try taking a major element of one of the PCs backstory and make the villain go through the same things, except instead of becoming stronger and more good for it, they became evil.

Send the group on an evil quest, an obviously evil one, and when they realize they'd been tricked into evil they'll want Justice.

If you have a cleric or a paladin, the bad guy could be a crusader trying to abolish their church. Or maybe someone trying to outlaw magic and execute the people who practice it.

The point is bringing it to their table and making them choose, then telling them how they chose poorly. Make them fight with their ideals, not their dice.

They keep dumping their garbage and what else in the heros hometown after being told not to.

The garbage dumping leads to rat infestations and lost space.

More like strike dat ass

Just having a recurring, annoying foe can be enough to make it personal.

Having a former benefactor turn out to be a manipulator also works.

By bullying them relentlessly.
Duh.

Make the players feel weak and ineffective, even impotent. My first encounter with a good villain was in one of the first games I ever played, FFII for the SNES (I know it's really IV, shut up). Sure, nowadays, having your ass handed to you in a cutscene is commonplace, but the idea behind it is sound. You've survived the monsters assault, been stabbed in the back by your best friend, and then the pipe music starts up. He knocks you aside effortlessly, takes the macguffin, and leaves, not even bothering to kill you.

For an example that isn't overplayed, consider this. The players are just a small part of a greater scheme. Every battle they win, the willain wins two somewhere else. Make stopping the villain some huge effort, with nations involved, people dying left and right. And when they finally encounter the villain for the first time, like Raul Julia in Street Fighter, he doesn't even recognize them. The day he blew up the city while they were out routing the orc army? Biggest event in the campaign, just another Tuesday to him.

Or go with a Lex Luthor. The hometown wasn't burned down, the wife wasn't raped to death by an ogre. He's spread famine, or bought up the farms, or closed the mines, just out of spite. The wife wasn't killed, she left the player, because he couldn't provide for the family. That's why he's an adventurer, there's nothing else for him anymore.

Hit them where it hurts when they least expect it. Violate inane yet sacred taboos. PCs will let little grudges blossom into insane vendettas. I've seen more anger directed towards a neutral party that didn't kiss the party's ass than any DevilDoomEvil Bad Guy.

Run the party through a few dungeon cycles near one town. They raid the place, beat up monsters, get a piece of the overall plot, but not enough to see the big picture yet. After the third one the villain buys out and condemns their favorite bar as part of his plot.

The party is ignoring hooks? Your next hook, no matter how it comes, is connected to one NPC who does something that almost no PC can ignore: He steals a non essential but useful piece of their gear(i.e. gloves vs only weapon.)

Killing loved ones is trite and boring? OK, let's think outside the box. The party learns of an up and coming necromancer when he defiles the graves of their favorite shopkeep, making them depressed and worried about the afterlife.

Seriously, this is fun. The corrupt local councilor wants to false flag a slaughter of a village to jump start a war for profit. He makes it illegal to sell the party rogue's favorite opium-alike and confiscates all current stocks, then resells them on the black market at a huge mark up.

Hit their pride. Don't think of BBEGs. Lead up to BBEGs. Make somebody serving a BBEG into a rival that insults and snubs a party member somehow. Spurned honor, a game of chance, a tourney battle, whatever. Insults instead of dead family members. A little humility instead of a lot of edge.

Cripple them. Stat loss is far more debilitating to a PC than even death.

This kind of shit makes players hate you, not the BBEG.

Build reactively after the first few adventures or so. Pay attention to the stuff they say annoys them in their backstories and write-ups only if it actually seems to get to them in play itself.

After a few sessions, take note of the stuff that really seems to irritate them in character or when they really seem to take a liking to an NPC. That's not always something you can predict, so a reactive approach helps a lot here. Start designing future story threads and conflicts around the things that bother them in turn.

Example: I had a campaign last year in which players were tracking down a number of demonically-corrupted prisoners who had escaped and scattered their separate ways. All of them were different enough that I could pay attention to who the players were interested in, and start developing shit around those guys while ignoring the ones they didn't care about. They made it personal for themselves by paying attention to sob stories of some and ignoring others - I just went with what they decided along those lines.

People make these threads because they try to do the same things in the media they've seen, but do so badly, or do it well and find the players have decided not to care anyway.

I've found taunting works well, even if it is a cliche villain trope. Also have the villain hamper them in frustrating/humiliating but ultimately petty ways. Of course, if your party is just a bunch of murderhobos there to kill shit and loot the corpse then it's pretty hard to get them engaged in anything outside of vague interest or completionism.

Humans really aren't that logical

Have the villain undercut the players just when they're feeling accomplished and beat them to the punch.

If they're about to claim some ancient relic, make like the first scene of Raiders of the Lost Arc and have the villain steal it once they do all the hard work.

Have the villain kill their nemesis, or claim a bounty the players were after, or wound them in a way to prevent them from achieving some immediate goal.

That's not something they should do constantly. The players won't look forward to doing anything if they know the villain will show up and rob them of satisfaction.

This, my players were already savoring the xp from that black dragon, and despite only happening once at a relatively low level, they've been paranoid of the BBEG coming to steal their gains ever since. They couldn't even claim the reward because the villain stole the corpse and they were threated scammers in that town ever since.

What anime?

Have a villain go out of his way to mock a PC, or all the PCs.
>Wow, nice job, jackass. Real great use of that wizarding diploma. Seems they didn't teach you anything but rote chants. State of education these days, I swear.
>I just wanna know, between you and me- did you become a paladin to make up for your deadbeat dad and whore mother or something? Because you really act like you're compensating for something.
>Congratulations, your sorcerous powers and nice ass are the only two things you have going for you, and one of them goes away with age. Keep working on the other.
>I wonder if your dead parents are looking down disappointed in you or looking up wanting you to join them in Hell. Either way, you're nothing but a rotten leech, pickpocket.
>Man, how disappointed were your parents when you said you wanted to go adventuring? If I were you, I woulda stuck on the farm and put my life to some actual use.

Fucker insulted my cleric's religion. Worked with us in the past when our aims aligned, but made a discovery about the nature of our world and some of its history such that he decided it needed to be destroyed.

My cleric saw the event as a paragon example of his faith's ideals, self actualization through creation, knowledge, and craftsmanship, but this sonovabitch NPC called it a lie and a falsehood that needed to be destroyed, along with everyone on it.

Fuck.
That.
Guy.

Quickdraw calledshot at his kneecaps for it, but the bastard got away with a teleportation scroll. He's been a reoccuring NPC adversary in a few scenarios, but it got worse in the last time we met him.

That garbage about zealously destroying falsehoods? Bullshit propaganda they feed their population to justify invading realities, consuming their resources and dooming the branched timeline; nothing but a veiled excuse for inter-dimensional colonialism.

Gonna make a damn good crowbar out of his spine if he has any the head-floating jackass.

Read the thread.

Have strict weight and supply management rules for your players, forcing them to get a wagon for their provisions, gear and loot.

Then have your villain break their wagon. Repeatedly.

If you're not a mean girl at heart, this will backfire and make them think you're retarded. As seen here.

Yeah, it's super petty, but it's the first example I could think of that wasn't immediately obvious or had already been listed.
After a certain point, there's only so many ways you can attack someone. Besides, a lot of evil people in real life are also obnoxious and petty, and think they sound better than they do.

This thread's had some good suggestions, but I'll throw my hat in with some advice about using a PC's friends and family to make their feud with the villain personal.

You see, there's a certain paradox in the villain going for a PC's loved ones. Nobody likes it when the villain kills their character's family; If it was something they could've stopped but they themselves fucked it up, a lot of players will give you a pass since you were fair about it. But if you kill them in a 'cutscene', expect them to be rightly pissed. Now here's the paradox. Players hate when their character's loved ones get killed, but they love it when they get to be big damn heroes. Watching the villain gut his character's wife will make a player mad at you for pulling a cheap trick for forced drama. But that player will get hyped real fast when his character swings in and rescues his wife from the lava trap at the last second.

What that means is this; Don't just kill a character's loved ones. Instead, put them in dangerous situations. Let the villain capture them and hold them hostage to lead the PCs into a trap, let his armies attack the city where their families just so happen to live, things like that. The trick is in setting things up where the character's loved ones are in danger, but not guaranteed to die. The villain might have them in a cage and not have anything planned for hem beyond using them as bait, or he might decide to put them in a contraption that slowly lowers them towards a pit of lava during their final battle to keep the PCs distracted. Essentially, you're putting them in a situation where the danger -feels- real, but in reality they have ample opportunity to save them. You want to maintain the illusion of danger, while still giving them a fair chance.

(1/2)

Villain keeps sending rust monster-types.

However, that doesn't mean you should puss out if the PCs do something stupid. If they break that illusion of danger, the whole thing becomes incredibly lame. So if a character decides they want to leave their loved one in the death trap while they investigate the building, thinking you don't have the guts to actually follow through, you should absolutely kill themselves. When it comes to situations like this, you need to ask yourself these questions:

-Did I explain the circumstances well enough, and did I make the potential consequences clear?
-Did I leave the party with feasible ways to prevent this, preferably multiple ways to avoid a 'One correct answer' scenario?
-Was I fair to the players in this scene? Have I given them their chances, and they either ignored them or fucked them up?

If your answers to those questions are 'Yes', then the player has no one to blame but himself. You gave him a chance, now if he bitches at you he has no ground to stand on. You should be rooting for the player to succeed in saving their loved ones, but if they do a bunch of stupid shit and fuck it all up, you need to be firm and follow through.

Upside is, when they save their loved ones it can really impact how that NPC views the PC. An unrequited love might find herself thinking about her rescuer more often, his parents might finally realize just how much their child's grown up, the treacherous rogue he's frenemies with might realize the folly of his ways in opposing someone who'd risk their neck to save him, stuff like this. If there's anything players like, it's feeling and being treated like a hero. This gives them a good chance at that.

So in conclusion, don't kill your PC's loved ones. Put them in danger and let the PCs save them like the big damn heroes they are.

Trying to murder the PCs in their sleep is pretty personal isn't it? If that doesn't make them want to go after the bbeg, they're either pussies or psychos.

Listen to this user For instance, find out WHERE your players came from. Unleash a blight on their crops. Not enough to starve everyone to death, but enough to make life miserable. Attack their livestock with a disease that's just severe enough, and effects just enough, that a significant amount have to be euthanized, and burned/buried. If you want to be really sadistic, make sure it effects all of their pets, cats and dogs the same way. Spoil just enough of their wells and other sources of freshwater so that the average individual has to go out of their way to collect water from a clean source. Kill all the fish and other aquatic animals in the spoiled water. Fuck with the weather, so there are bizarre random snow storms in the summer, and warm wet soggy days in the winter.

TL;DR make life in the home villages/cities that your PCs originate from absolutely miserable, without killing any NPCs.

I guess you can't pull the "i am your father" without accusations of mary sue stuff either.

You, uh, do know they'd still get the fucking XP, right? You wouldn't be so fucking stupid as to not give them XP for doing the fight, only for someone else to take the last hit.

Right? You wouldn't actually be that mind-numblingly, knuckle dragging stupid, right?

My favorite thing is using one character as the lesser of two evils, but is still very much so an antagonist. One time my PC's decided to help a crown prince take the thrown in the middle of a civil war. They needed other political allies in order to get him there, so they reached out to another noble, and managed to convince him to join them, however the support never came because the antagonist framed the noble and took his house from him (I would note that this was after the antagonist convinced several other nobles to join the opposite side the PC's were on) so now the PC's had to work for this character who was very obviously a snake in order to get what they wanted. Eventually the antagonist took the throne from the high prince as well and exiled him, which turned him into a sympathetic NPC for the PC's and set them on the path of removing the antagonist for good and clearing their kings name. It was a neat dynamic though that even when their enemy was ten feet away from them they wouldn't attack him.

I've always wanted to do this, but I've always felt the rest of the group would blow up at me for it, whether I did this as a DM for another player or as a player myself.

Steal from the party?
Bring them criminal justice system down on them?
Get the media to push a false narrative about the PCs?

If that were really true, orphans would never want their real parents and the ancestry sites that have become a fad wouldn't exist

I like to start my campaigns without a big villain, the first few sessions are always character building and unrelated (at least for now) cases. It gives me time to build a small cast of NPCs that the characters interact with and build relationships.

This gives me time to figure out which NPC they like, and what they like about him. He becomes more involved with the plot as it unfolds. That stable-boy from the village? Well, inspired by your heroism he's gone and joined a Knightly Order as a Horse-tender! That kind of stuff. The players then continue battling this faceless threat, perhaps Orcs are raiding as usual or Cultists are hiding behind the kings Outhouse chanting spells. Then this NPC gets involved. They're not the bad-guy. The players have to make them the bad guy, and this is the hardest part. Perhaps a burning building with one person left inside and unreachable, perhaps a consequence of the PCs actions. Something that would change how a person looks at the world, and especially the PCs. I've managed this twice in my games, I'll set it out below.

>Dark Heresy
>Establish a Radical Inquisitor, he's saved the PCs once before but by and large they're letting bygones be bygones.
>In a case of mistaken identity (putting it lightly), the PCs kill this Inquisitor, shooting his throat out with a sniper rifle from two kilometres away.
>Inquisitor burns his only fate point and survives, but his Demonhost slave saves his life, binding his essence with hers, creating an ungodly abomination that is sometimes friendly and halfway sympathetic towards the PCs, and other times its a rampaging monstrosity more powerful than the cells Psyker.
>Pelmont Nayl, the biggest coward and the gravest threat my PCs ever faced. He's still alive.

Is this a new season? I don't recall this scene.

>Quest unlocked
leave that in brother

>Vampire Requiem
>Players are told by the Prince that foreign Kindred are infiltrating the city and trying to destabilise it.
>Players spend a while interacting with NPCs, figuring out who's who.
>They learn some background lore about these foreign individuals, they're mentally strong by way of some arcane rite or other.
>The players ignore this, and corner their most likely suspect.
>He's an ex-vet of some war that he won't talk about. Slight scarring, eyes never still.
>Players try to use Dominate on him
>He throws it off with a good roll and flee's, using Celerity to outrun most cars.
>Players report back, this guy becomes their nemesis. Their responsibility and their fuck-up.
>His military background and love of explosives and ambushes becomes the bane of their lives.

I just revealed a lot villain in my campaign... and it was a powerful moment.

The PCs had rescued her from prison, only for her to have been a double-agent the whole time. They did her bidding throughout the whole campaign up until now, playing into the hands of the BBEG. Their success doomed their own faction and allowed the BBEG to take over the realm.

And they only realized when she drew her sword and ordered the PCs to kneel before her.

They escaped... and now have a sworn enemy they'll never forget.

Holy fuck, how have your players not lynched you?
Did you really do that good of a job on the reveal?
I'm going to have to contain the explosion that occurs when the BBEG's mole on the inside is an NPC who's pretty much been nothing but helpful to the PCs the whole time.

>Lex Luthor

Perfect example right there. A bbeg with influence and money is far more infuriating than some asshole warlord; especially one who can use his influence inside of the law and try to ruin the players and the people they care about.

The players were shocked. They had been tipped off that there was a mole, but the villain had them investigating the wrong people.

Their faction made an all-out attack to try to stop the BBEG from seizing the throne, leaving her alone with the rest of their faction's leadership. The PCs came back to find the aftermath of a slaughter and her blade behind it.

Now, one of the PCs is the highest ranking officer left, and needs to go about rebuilding, to fix all the damage they've done.

Yeah, I'm not even going to try to be humble about this: I did a damn good job. There were gasps, "holy shit!"s, and many questions - but hindsight is 20/20. They quickly realized how they'd been played. One of the players said, "I'm envious, I could never pull this off in the game I GM," which I take as the ultimate compliment in RPGs.

>How can a villain make things personal without killing a PCs loved ones?
The easiest method is not trying to engage the PC's hatred.
Even if your execution is perfect, which it will almost never be, engaging the PC's hatred only works to level the player is role-playing at.

If you want the PC's to hate the villain, you have to get the Players to hate the villain.
Target what the players want to accomplish and have the villain put obstacles in their path.
It could be relationships, wealth, items, xp, fame, or literally anything.

>Three important notes:
1. These *must* be obstacles, not permanent and impassable roadblocks or the players fun is crushed.

2. The villain need not be present to lord over them.
They might not even know the PCs exist.
Just have the obstacles clearly linked back to the villain.
The idea is that the players will want to get rid of this guy just to have him out of the way.

3. Make it very clear that these obstacles are the work of the villain, not you the GM.
This is the hardest part.
It is important to make it feel like the villain is just a natural part of the world that just happens to be in the way.
Try to prevent it seeming like you keep making things up just to prevent them from getting what they want.
Roll in the open.
Make up "notes" to show them to prove it was always going to happen this way.
Let them win sometimes.
Make it clear that you are cheering for the PCs to beat this guy too.

That's my 2 cents.
Party on.

There is actually an interesting study done on the power of DNA from a neurological stand point. I believe it was the university of Cambridge that has had a study going for nearly 40 years now, basically if you're parent, or parents are criminals you're more likely to become one as well, even if that person has had next to no contact with you. Now obviously this isn't true for every child, different people react differently to certain impulses. The study also examines why orphans search out their birth parents, why siblings who were separated at birth are more likely to become friends or be attracted to each other and similar subjects. The short version of it is that even if you've never met someone, when you find out they're related to you it triggers a certain response in your brain and you are instinctively set to care about them more.

Some players are just dense.
No that inkeeper I constantly tell you smells like shit, looks like is dying of flu and isn't all quite there but treats you super nice and pays a lot of attention to your stories and plans can't be anything but a sad comedy relief character, it's not a puppet of the necromancer you're hunting, it's just a coincidence the necromancer knows all your plans and the innkeeper always goes to bed right at dusk while the necromancer only acts at night.
You're not literally sleeping next to the enemy, ffs.

Don't target the NPCs, though - players don't really get as emotionally attached to NPCs as they do to their PCs.

Judges Guild's The Dark Tower, before you ask.

I hope they're dense enough not to notice the bread crumb trail of hints and wonder why one guy wasn't where he was supposed to be when he was supposed to be there.
Right now they think the traitor is an incompetent buffoon when he's waiting until the timing is right. His master needs more influence and allies before they can kill their target.

I'd say make them take public credit for the PC's actions. Or, on the other side of the coin, frame them.

Strike the Blood

They are an Obstanent, self absorbed fucking asshole that thinks THEY'RE the Hero.

Seriously. You have no idea how easily the party will make it in this case. Last time i used this my players ended up having better ideas then me for how he acts and I just rolled with them quietly without letting them know. Confirming occasionally through gameplay that s/he was indeed as stupid as they think.

Is it any good?

It's be Paul Jaquay, so yeah it's fuckin' amazing and has his usual great map design. It's just got some bits that really date it, like having the villain drug and rape female PCs if they capture the party. It was '79, the hobby was a goddamn sausage fest.

Also, it's a high-level third-party 1E adventure. If you want something lower-level I can recommend Jaquay's Caverns of Thracia, though!

You could always try making them a necessary evil. Make it so that the PCs have to live with, even cooperate with, for a while.

Like maybe they have to hunt down a monster before it slaughters everone and they're is the only one who knows how to track it. Maybe they're the only one who can help the PCs do something they need to do to complete something important, or even to save their own skins. Maybe they're just the only guy who will give them a job when they end up indebted to someone who wants their money right now and if they don't get it then shins start popping like firecrackers on New Years.

Just don't even try to make them out to be anything other than a piece of shit they really are. Sure, you can give them a reason for being a piece of shit, but that doesn't mean that their actions need to be justified. Just drive it home that they're the biggest asshole the PCs know and suggest that the real reason they're an asshole is because they just really like being an asshole.

Then when the PCs are finally done dealing with them, just have the dude fuck them over because he thought would be funny. Bonus points if you set it up so that the PCs are the ones who gave the guy what he needed to fuck them in the first place like in

People like you are why I don't get attached to most NPCs that I encounter in-character.

Chances are, they're either going to die, get raped/tortured and become vegetables, or betray the party, and it's easier to just write them off as canon fodder for the GM's shitty plot than to open up and be made a fool of because you actually gave a shit.

This is IMO the only surefire way to do it. Just make random NPCs, and then one that your players don't like for whatever retarded reason they have ends up being the villian. The NPC that they really like for some reason can get captured\ or killed.

>They killed some stranger the PC had just saved, right in front of them.

I love this one. My players don't give a shit about my NPCs, but they are going to fucking hate it if somebody ruins their hard work.

Have him deforest the woods where the PCs played when they were young. Dam and drain the lake where they fished, or tear down the mountains they camped in. Don't destroy the people in their life, obliterate their happiest memories.

They stole the PCs favorite lunch made for them with love and care by a loved one.

Some shortened stories as examples.

Character 1 in a homebrew was a zealous religious fighter who really really hated demons and who I wanted to go into the class witch hunter (and play as a demon hunter), which I said beforehand to the DM.
DM let a witch kill his wife and unborn child, because "he needed a motivation to become a witch hunter". We killed the witch right there.
Not good.

Character 2 was a noble bright, big hearted wizard wo had a lovey dovey relationship with a barmaid.
When shit went down in the world they had to flee, got seperated and she travelled for months alone. Got raped several times along the way etc., when she finally found Char 2 she was mentally damaged and couldn't speak anymore. Char 2 cared for her, invested time an money to "fix" her.
Until one session she suddenly attacked Char 2, made all her saves against his non lethal spells, tried to kill him and got killed by another player, since there was no other way to rescue Char 2. It was revealed the bbeg did break her mind when she got seperated and did control her the whole time since then.
Also not good.

Both times it was the same DM. Yes, especially the second one made it personal. But when I make a childish, good natured and calm character who still believes that there's good in this world, maybe that's because I want to play exactly that. No need to scar him up (especially since he would have fought the bbeg anytime, anyways). And yes characters can and should grow, but obviously that was the wrong way to force it (and in the wrong direction).

Also there's a difference between making it personal for a character and infuriating your players. When I feel cheated or notice the DM explicitly targets my loved ones in every game I'm not having fun. Why care for NPCs and invest in them and build something up when the DM will probably kill them for some kind of "deepness" and "character motivation".

That said, I talked to the DM and I made my point clear. Still playing with him.

What is this female cuckoldry

uses old homies as lackeys.

netori