Warmachine/Hordes General

Hi, ladies and gents, I've got a question for you: with a list like this, how fucked am I? I dropped off in Mk1, completely ignored Mk2 and I was thinking to come back with Mk3, and learning the ropes again with this. These models are what I've left after selling everything else.

(Mortenebra 1) Master Necrotech Mortenebra [+24]
- Deryliss
- Deathripper [6]
- Deathripper [6]
- Slayer [10]
- Slayer [10]
- Slayer [10]
- Defiler [8]
- Defiler [8]
Pistol Wraith [5]
Wrong Eye [17]
- Snapjaw
Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [5]
Cylena Raefyll & Nyss Hunters (min) [12]
Machine Wraith [2]

Semi-fucked.

Cryx took a huge hit and is now overall bottom tier. Most models in the faction either suffer from a ton of weaknesses, undead tax and broken interactions (the bad kind, such as spell slave no longer functioning on most spells). As such, Mortenebra is also suffering from this.

Lucky for you, most of your models are still pretty decent and Wrong Eye + Snapjaw are great! Mercs are generally better then our in-faction options now and the Nyss Hunters and Orin are solid pieces. Slayers, Pistol Wraith are just about right.

All in all, the main thing you'd need to bring this list from meh to okay is to replace a couple of arc nodes with either different lights or 1-2 different heavies. Don't expect to win big tournaments but it'll work just fine on most tables.

Unless your opponents only play Cygnar/Khador/Circle/Ret and insist on only bringing the good stuff. In that case, anyone not playing the same thing is straight fucked anyway.

Would it be better if I changed all the lights with a Harrower and a couple of Nightwretches?

Oh, and removing also the Machine Wraith.

Probably, the problem with the arc node lights is that they don't have the defense and power to provide any use in combat. Nightwretch is my preferred node because of his decent-pow shot, which gets an extra focus with Morty.

Also, to make use of Sacrificial Lamb you want some cheap pawns like Scrap Thralls to sacrifice. Maybe throw in a couple of Necrotechs for some repairs and more Scrappies.

Machine Wraiths are really good imo, I'd rather make room for more if you have em.

Keeping the core to the models you own I'd go with something like this:

conflictchamber.com/#b41b111f1v1v1v1p1p2n2n2k2k752of0

Cryx Army - 75 / 75 points

conflictchamber.com/#b41b111f1v1v1v1p2n2n2k2k752obF

Cryx Army - 75 / 75 points

(Mortenebra 1) Master Necrotech Mortenebra [+24]
- Deryliss
- Nightwretch [7]
- Slayer [10]
- Slayer [10]
- Slayer [10]
- Harrower [16]
Necrotech [2]
Necrotech [2]
Machine Wraith [2]
Machine Wraith [2]
Cylena Raefyll & Nyss Hunters (max) [19]
Scrap Thrall [2]
Wrong Eye [17]
- Snapjaw

Then again it's pretty hard to build an optimal army with a small collection like this, especially in Cryx right now and I haven't played a lot of jack heavy games. I feel Morty wants more cheap jacks like Shrike and Scavenger, but she is crippled by her low WJ points.

Best thing you can do is give it a whirl and see how you like it, maybe change a piece here and there.

There's also a big errata coming in January which will supposedly give Cryx some more resistance against gunlines, so you might wanna hold off any purchases until then.

Fucking this. Also Cygnar gets several full caster reworks (Kraye, Kara, Caine2), and some of us get fucking nothing (Skorne springs screamingly to mind, the fuck did they do to Makeda). And then they randomly nerf crap out of nowhere (Constance, Shae, Grogspar). Units that have been bad forever (Highshields, whatever) continue to be irrelevant. I almost honestly believe they balance via dartboard at this point.
Magical January errata better be fucking amazing.
Mind you, outside of terrain, and steamroller geometry, core rules are pretty gud.

Yep, January is definitely going to be my make-or-break point for this game. They're not getting a third chance.

Occam's Razor, or whatever. They will do a bare minimum, unnerf Skorne and that's probably about it, and it'l be a shitshow.
Fuck this release schedule too, they can't fix that in January.
And where are my goddamn Minion/Merc themes?

I am fucking mad about toy soldiers. Goddamn.

I know the feeling, I haven't been this worked up about something in a long time. Started about 2 years ago and thought I had finally found a game I'd be able to play/collect almost entirely.

And don't even get me started on grindball or whatever else they're working on. Just fix your fucking game first!

SKREEEONK

Hi there, Veeky Forums.
It's your friendly cryxian pirate with (not so) new booty - No Quarter 69. Have fun.

> www115.zippyshare.com/v/1MN3bhjS/file.html

I play a lot less lately and kinda put this game on hiatus for myself. That's why I got this NQ only now, though it was released for a while already. But anyway I hope I'll bring you new magazines and rulebooks in the future too. When they'll come out. Just maybe not as quickly as before.

Not only grind, but they are making at least 3 mini spin-off shitty games. That's valuable developer hours you could be fixing your shit with.
Turns out inner-faction balance is as important as everyone having one list thats playable.

Bless or curse you and your piracy.
Whatever you like most.

Thanks user!

No nipples, no Amon

I've got it, if I had the option of buying it again, I'd get Muse's set.

Broken Egg's tokens smell funky, and you have to scrape off the paper left over from the acrylic, which is annoying as fuck. And it only has one of several tokens which you could often use multiples of (specifically, there's only one Enliven, and I often have two up in my Amon list, and there's only one Battle Driven, which I often have two up in my Kreoss3 list). In addition, the tokens are one-sided while the Muse ones are two-sided.

The tokens themselves are beautiful, but I'd rather have a Muse set.

If anyone has scans of the theme lists from the Trollblood book, please post them or send them to [email protected].

I've got them working as per the leaks from Chain Attack on Conflict Chamber, but I'd really like to see the actual phrasing of some stuff, as some minor wording differences could make a difference in how some models interact with the theme.

Well, gents, I think I solved my problem, I somehow found out I had a Warwitch Deneghra tucked away (and a THIRD Defiler, I must have had a real boner for Mortenebra's Hellchicken Farm), so if what's on Battlecollege is just about right, for the time being (until January at least) I could scrape by without buying anything (and by using Deryliss as a normal Scarlock) with something like this:

conflictchamber.com/#b41b0x2A1v1v1v19191a1abF7y742t2k

Cryx Army - 75 / 75 points

(Deneghra 1) Warwitch Deneghra [+28]
- Skarlock Thrall [4]
- Slayer [10]
- Slayer [10]
- Slayer [10]
- Deathripper [6]
- Deathripper [6]
- Defiler [8]
- Defiler [8]
Wrong Eye [17]
- Snapjaw
Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [5]
Cylena Raefyll & Nyss Hunters (min) [12]
Pistol Wraith [5]
Machine Wraith [2]

What do you gents think?

I've been out of the loop for a couple weeks. Where/what are the spoilers for Madrak3 and the Trollblood theme forces? Any user able to hook an user up?

Denny is a pretty good caster still, but she has trouble running multiple heavies because she needs most of her focus to be effective.

Denny generally wants a few nodes and maybe a heavy at most, filling the rest up with units, solos en stuff like Wrong Eye & Snapjaw.

Mortenebra wants a ton of jacks with some support, some sacrificial pawns for her ability and maybe a unit or 2 to keep the enemy distracted.

I recommend just trying out some stuff and see what problems you run into.

Is Cryx really in such a bad spot? Leaving their obvious problems with gunlines aside, the Satyxis units, as well as Bane Knights still look quite good.
The Slayer-Chassis Jacks and their character jacks also look quite good. The Slayer itself is pretty cheap and still packs an ok punch.
They also have a few good warcasters (Denny, Scaverous and Coven look pretty good), much like some other factions that are considered good.
Sure, they got nerfed, but if they can deal with gunlines again, shouldn't they go to the upper mid tier? Or are they really fucked in other areas as well?

Oh it's my conversion, I just used that Prisma app to make a cool picture

xth for Skorne putting the PAIN in PAINTING. Up next: 10 Karax, 12 Swordsmen and Zaadesh1. It's going to be an enjoyable christmas.

>I'd kill for Gun Mages in my army.
>t. Skorne player whose only routinely fielded infantry is Beast Handlers
Play Reivers. Reivers are really good and probably better than ATGM right now.

Replace Mortenebra with any other caster and you'll be fine against anything but top tier tournament lists.

Playing RAT5 infantry with no buffs when everyone else has RAT6+ and buffs is just shit. Dakar is just more turd polishing and points spent on support.

Or I guess you can keep whining. Whatever works for you.

Neither works. That's why people have been selling Skorne collections and why there are mountains of battleboxes left.

What's good in Cryx is middling to okay in other factions. Our Helljacks are playable now but the Slayer chassis is still way too easy to hit - DEF13 isn't hard to hit and we don't even have the ARM or boxes to stand up to small arms fire. Combine that with how much anti-Stealth tech there is out there now and it all makes for a fairly grim picture

If everybody hates mk3 so much why not just play with mk2 rules?

Just finished my new Unit leader. Paints thinned and hopefully a better colorc scheme than last time. I am the SoH guy you flattered with those rad comments btw.

...

Because for all the whining, Mk2 somehow managd to be more broken. It had way more incredibly broken shit, especially theme forces, and while we now have new balance issues, they are far less numerous.

...

Only a small percentage of theme forces saw competitive play, and those usually used otherwise shit models and made skews of them on par with normal lists full of good models. Balance issues seem bigger than before, especially the power disparity between warmachine and hordes. Also, a huge complaint I heard in most podcasts was removing flavour rules, including psychology, and trading quality for quantity in terrain. The game seems super bland now that every ua traded their unique ability for reposition.

That is an all around good job but use less wash and more highlights. And for god sake straighten that spear.

Missclicked, didnt mean to tag
Stupid phones.

Thanks. Spear had already been fixed. Sadly my lamp sucls but it looks much better in RL than on a small picture. The red higliths get a bit overlightet but are quite good.

Quick question, does anybody know how to print those card pdfs in a scale similar to real cards? What settings should I need?

Maybe pick out the trim on the bottom of the tabard? It's not bad otherwise. I would have made the armor and cloth different colors myself, tho.

SKREEONK, BABYY

Mk2 was way more balanced all around, the main problem was that some factions had a lot of issues and pp worked themselves in the corner.

So they did Mk3, kept the same issues but put them in different factions and also managed to create a ton of broken interactions and caused more then 50% of all models to be dropped from competitive play.

And then there are Skorne and Cryx...

You're scholar and gentleman, bro!!!

>Mk2 was way more balanced all around

Bullshit. For all it's flaws, Mk3 is far better balanced than Mk2 was.

Even the boogymen of Mk3 are far less of a pain in the ass than Mk2's versions.

Another question from the Mortenebra faggot from before, ladies and gents. I was thinking of dragging someone else with me in this, so, since I saw that there are some new starter battleboxes, I was thinking of buying one of them as a Christmas gift to my companion in this particular adventure (I was thinking of Menoth, since I know he likes the overall look of the faction). So, to cut it short, I need a "battlebox list" for myself, from what I have of course, and I was thinking about this:

Warwitch Deneghra
Slayer
Slayer
Defiler

Would it be considered balanced in this new edition?

how well do you guys think a format in which you can only use small-based minis would be balanced? I was thinking something small like a 10-point list being used in an extremely enclosed environment, but I'm not sure how that would affect the 'jack-heavy factions.

>No nipples
>0/10

I can't see it being balanced at all.

Trolls basically don't get to play, for example, and factions like CoC are incredibly limited in their options.

Meanwhile, Cyngar loses practically nothing beyond Stormlances and some warcasters they don't care about anyways.

would increasing it to 25 points and playing a more courtyard-type environment with medium bases make it a bit more balanced?

When you say "only use small-based minis", you mean no light or heavy jacks/beasts/etc?

The answer is "omg no".

Jacks/beasts are the answer to too many problems in the game for it to work without them.

If you bump it up to medium bases, then Butcher3 basically kills every other legal list *by himself*.

ngl, I forgot about Butcher3
well, that kinda kills the fun of my idea.

Warmachine player detected.

you caught me, there's no Hordes faction I care about yet

You mean Butcher3, Madrak2, and Makeda3 all kill lthe entire enemy army by themselves.

Lies. At least everyone got to play in mk2.

Mk3 forces you to play certain models/factions or stay home.

>you caught me, there's no Hordes faction I know anything about yet
Fixed.

>At least everyone got to play in mk2.
Highly dependent on your faction. Skorne had 2 tier lists (Xerxis1, Rasheth), Mordikaar, and Karn assassinations. Beyond that, nothing could keep up at a competitive level.

Still more then Skorne has now.

Even Trolls, Legion, Cryx and Minions only have 1-2 viable setups, all of which are all still inferior to Khador, Cygnar, Ret and Circle lists.

Sure, but the upper level of those Cyngar, Ret, and Circle lists is far less than what Mk2 brought.

There's no Haley2s, no Denny2s, no L2. Hell, I'd argue none of the gunlines right now compare to the bullshit that was L2 in the slightest.

Eh, I could probably go to discount games and find somebody who won a tournament with some cheesy gunline on some niche caster or the immortal tier list or any other skew.

>Skorne had 2 tier lists (Xerxis1, Rasheth), Mordikaar, and Karn assassinations. Beyond that, nothing could keep up at a competitive level.
Now Skorne has one list and the rest can't keep up at a casual level.

Depends on what you define as a casual level.

Haley2 is still miles above the curve and the general level on otber factions was brought down so much that the gap got bigger then it was in mk2.

>Depends on what you define as a casual level.
Not even that guy but I'm like 1-9 against the local Legion player with Skorne. He doesn't do anything special, it's just that I can't really bring infantry because it's all shit, and he can get to my heavies before I get to his. The one list he's talking about is probably Rasheth, who would be mediocre in any other faction. It's not even a list, it's just a caster. The lists vary.

>The one list he's talking about is probably Rasheth
Hell no.

Opponent of similar skill with a non-terrible list in a real faction.

Haley2 might still be powerful, but she's not Mk2 powerful.

Anyone who says she is never played against a good Mk2 Haley.

Sure, but two players of similar skill generally means a competitive bent in Warmachine.

I'm not debating Skorne aren't bad they sure as shit need fixing, but this feels like rose tinted googles for Mk2. There was shitloads of terrible shit in Mk2 that people just don't remember how frustrating it was(mostly because they'd been playing with the proper counters for years)\

Nothing in Mk3 is like Gaspy2, for example, where you'd practically table him and he'd still win soundly. Or how much he fucked infantry over.

>rose tinted googles for Mk2
Absolutely. I think a lot of disappointment with Mk3 comes from the expectation that it would be noticably better than Mk2. And it really just is a different kind of broken right now. That can - and I think will - improve a lot next month. I hope it's on time to save the game.

So little changed is another issue. They put in a game mode that no one gives a shit about and that's about it.

We needed something new to make Mk3 feel like more than a big, rushed errata.

It doesn't matter how powerful they all were because they were on a shared level.

In mk3 only a few factions reach the upper level, creating a worse balance.

And haley2 is still just as annoying.

I dont think my glasses are rose tinted. Mk2 design was suprisingly neat, polished and concise for how long it was up. Mk3 feels like it cut all the parts that felt right out and added flashy out of place things to compensate.

>Infantrymachine

>Mk3 feels like it cut all the parts that felt right out
What for example?

>added flashy out of place things to compensate
I can see that in some places. The new terrain types come to mind. But with a few little changes they could really grow into something great

>So little changed is another issue. They put in a game mode that no one gives a shit about and that's about it.
Oh come on. Mk3 added more than that.

So 2 factions and about 75% of all models didn't feel right?

80% of 2 factions and about 30% of all other factions.

Right things would be fear/morale and all related abilities, wreck markers, deep water, toeing into terrain, 8 wound infantry and many support model abilities that got unreasonably unorganically changed, like verendeye no longer supporting himself of riflemen.

The problem with most models is they're designed to be answers, when list chicken makes that unreliable. Keltarii are a natural DEF15 against shooting and even then you need 5s to kill with a POW10 shot. But if you bring them and the Ret player doesn't field Ossyan/Issyria, you've lost because Keltarii are ONLY a counter to shooting.

>fear/morale and all related abilities
Fuck no. Good thing those are gone. I would have preferred them to get improved instead, but I will take no fear system over a shitty one.
>wreck markers
Honestly meh. Don't mind either way.
>deep water
Are you taking the piss? Nobody used that shit ever for a damn good reason.
>toeing into terrain
Yup. I miss that too.
>8 wound infantry
Oh yes. They sadly won't return, but maybe we can get good stats on those models instead.
>support model abilities
Like for example? I mean Battle getting nerfed was fine, Protectorate is still top tier, more so than ever. Beast Handlers are getting their stuff back.

>maybe we can get good stats on those models instead
Cetrati are getting tough AND set defense ;^)

And a look at their points cost. That could very well be enough.

Does anyone have the trollbloods card deck in pdf that I might have a copy of?

Cetrati most likely won't be nudged, but Arcuarii and Incindiarii are coming right the fuck down.

>Arcuarii and Incindiarii are coming right the fuck down
I seriously hope so. Though I'd prefer them to just get good instead.

>8 wound infantry

That won't come back for the very specific reason in that they were stepping all over the toes of warjacks in terms of role, often doing it straight up better.

Not so sure about that. Warjacks had no role in Mk2 and that was not because of heavy infantry.

>they were stepping all over the toes of warjacks in terms of role
No they weren't. What stepped all over warjacks was that small based infantry could relatively easily wipe a heavy off the table. Why bring heavies to kill heavies when small guys can kill heavies without needing to worry about focus?

I'll just address this in order:
>Satyxis, Bane Knights

Bane Knights, Blood Witches and Nyss are still, IMO, the only real infantry choices in the army for most casters. There are exceptions, I like raiders with Lich3. Everything else really needs too much external support. Issues with Cryx infantry- Expensive, fragile, bad direction/ carry over bias from MKII has hamstrung a lot of options. Bane Knights get shredded by gunlines, particularly e-leaps which don't trigger vengeance.

>Slayer
It cost 10 points of who gives a fuck. Inflictor is 13 points and is an outstanding Jack that now exists in the real world.

>Character Jacks
They're all pretty good. Erebus has the stateline that all SLayers should have. Def14. Just make them a worse warpwolf. Nightmare- excellent. DJ- expensive but still really great. Bathroom-has some play, lack of open fists kind of sucks, wish he could charge for free.

>Casters
Yeah we have a few good warcasters, but in a world where everyone else kept their S tier casters it means nothing. You can't drop Denny1 into everything. Loosing the utility and flexibility of Lich2 really hurt Cryx because he had the most reliable way of getting up the field.

>Final Thoughts
Entertaining the scenario where Cryx now deals with Gunlines, Cryx still has huge gaps in terms of viability. The magic is very inefficient, the units are still blah and overpriced. The options are pretty lackluster. I also think in general the game is a lot less 'tricksy' than last edition and that has hurt Cryx as well.

Not in that fashion.

Heavies in Steamroller are good at holding points/zones, requiring dedicated effort to remove them, especially late game.

But once you started seeing medium base infantry that could reach heavy levels of ARM(and weren't cripplingly slow) you started seeing them hold zones just as well, if not better than jacks, while providing far more utility. Things like the rise of MMM and it's variants showcased this issue, and while Warders were the worst offender, there were a lot of other units that were doing the same thing.

>Yeah we have a few good warcasters

Coven is S-tier, imo. Only one in Cryx, but they can do some sick stuff on the table and play amazingly well into the gunline meta.

Problem is there's not a good pairing for them.

... And then killed jacks more efficiently than jacks killed them.

I think Denny1 is S tier. I don't care for Coven at all, they were gimmicky in MKII and I don't like their fluff (totally a valid reason), so I never really gave them more than a once over in MKIII. I haven't played since like July, so IDK if they are better now in the meta. I doubt it.