/5eg/ D&D Fifth Edition General

I still really don't get the point of Witch Bolt. Poison Spray is about the same and can't just be walked away from, and it doesn't cost a spell slot. Fire Bolt is a bit weaker, but is longer range and doesn't cost a spell slot.

If it at least added modifier to the damage or reduced their speed, I could see it working.

>witch bolt is amazing
kek

No, it slightly increases your DPR compared to cantrips, until level 5, at the cost of concentration, movement breaking it, and a spell slot. And it can miss the initial cast.

Quick! List reasons why Chainlocks are better than tomelocks!

The familiar is better than one from Find Familiar, and Chains of Carceri is fucking fantastic.

>le ebin invisible help action imp meme
That's literally it.

Depends. If it's pure Warlock levels, the Chainlock has more versatility/utility.

If multiclassing is allowed, it isn't. Sorlock just pew pews you until you stop moving.

>Exclusive access to spell points, combined with sorcery point pool
>Can learn new spells by seeing them performed then succeeding on DC (10 + spell level - castings seen) arcana check and time/money as wizard scribing
Does this fix sorcerer?

>Can learn new spells by seeing them performed then succeeding on DC (10 + spell level - castings seen) arcana check and time/money as wizard scribing
I'd rather not have that, a few more spells granted, and a slight reduction on total spell slots for wizards, combined with the spell/sorc point total seems good to me.

...

>implying that being able to deliver touch spells like bestow curse and vampiric touch at long range via a helper that is virtually undetectable until the spell is used is overrated.

Sure the help action shit is meme-ish, but it's still the better pact boon.

Eh, the first one works, but rather than the second, let them regain 1/2 level Sorcery points on a short rest once per day.

And then, take the Spell Mastery Feature away from Wizards and then give it to Sorcerers, along with making some spells that are Sorcerer Exclusive.

Sorcerer seems pretty fine to me, it just needs an extra archetype or two.

So long as you cast it on someone who can't easily leave range (cramped quarters, allies blocking, etc.), you get a lot of damage from 1 spell slot instead of spending a lot on magic missile or chromatic orb or whatever

>sorcerers
>needing fixing

Over the course of a minute, during which time you might be interrupted or have something else go wrong.

If there's a target surrounded by your allies in cramped quarters and nobody else is attacking you so AoE isn't a factor, just use cantrips. It'll probably be better to Chill Touch them so they can't regain hitpoints or just accepting missing while spamming Poison Spray or something.

>Homebrew spell
Well, there's your problem.

Except you don't.
Let's assume, for the sake of sanity, to say we want JUST damage.
A single cast of magic missile is 3d4+3, with subsequent turns being 1d10 firebolts/eldritch blasts.
A single cast of witch bolt is 1d12, followed by 1d12 on following turns.
That means that you are doing, on average, 1 damage more per turn than fire bolt, and with MM doing an average of 4 more, you need 5 turns of witch bolt to equal MM+firebolt. This assumes everything hits, BUT witch bolt entirely revolves around a SINGLE attack roll. A single point of failure means that the Witch Bolt has a straight up chance of doing 0 damage, while the bulk of MM+Cantrip is guaranteed to hit.

>Homebrew spell
EEPC is official content, the only homebrew rule would be excluding it.

It's in the Elemental Evil book, you fucking wad.

Well, yes. They're considered the weakest casters.

weakest! casters, but not the (weakest casters) which are either one of the non-full casters, or warlocks.

I think that's more just due to how strong Wizards are in comparison, being able to do much of what Sorcerers can better.

Seriously, Wizards are even better when it comes to having more spells per day, since they can get some back on a short rest and get to turn some low level spells into cantrips at high levels.

Lot of damage? Most fights last around 3 to 5 rounds at most. When you reach level 5, Witch Bolt becomes useless. Even before level 5, it's already a subpar option to use a spell slot on. Besides, it takes your concentration, and you'll usually have much better spells to concentrate on.

>Homebrew
Uh, no? It's from the Elemental Evil companion, an official add-on from WotC.

Which bolt is a way for necromancers to heal their flesh golems.

Question to any DMs. Lets say a PC has 3 levels in rogue and the assassin archetype, and also through whatever means (feat/multiclass/hax) had cast Charm Person on a target. If the rogue then attacks the NPC, is the NPC considered surprised? I guess he doesn't need to be a rogue to do that but it's mostly for the assassinate feature

Witch bolt was great.. When I did it wrong.

In my game my Sorcerer used Witchbolt fairly often when faced with tough "Boss" level monsters, the plan being our Cleric would hit a guiding bolt, or our Fighter a distracting strike to open up me for advantage, then I'd hit the big target with a level 4 witch bolt, dealing 4d12+4 damage, then repeating that every turn I can hold concentration, occasionally flicking out quickened spells so I can spend my action shocking.

Then we found out that secondary-hits from witch bolt only deal the 1d12, regardless of what spell slot was used, and further more elemental affinity wouldn't even apply to make it 1d12+4.

What's better, component pouch or foci?
[Spoiler]And why is it component pouch?[/spoiler]

Charm Person?

Yeah, probably. They consider you friendly, so it would likely be a surprise.

To be honest, make it a necrotic version of Incendiary Cloud and it'd be a perfectly decent spell. It'd make more sense for it to be like a "spreading plague/famine" anyways thematically and mechanically for its fucking 8th level slot rather than just one piddly instance of damage.

>[Spoiler]

Depends. If you're doing starting gold then coponent pouch.

If you do the pre-built kits at chargen get the most expensive focus you are entitled to.

They would on the condition that you told them to cover there eyes and hum loudly because you have a surprise for them, and there was no one else around to sufficiently warn them.

Otherwise they would sufficiently see you drawing your weapon and moving towards them.

I can't really see that it would be automatic, if you saw a friend take a swing at you, you wouldn't 100% of the time be surprised in terms of inactivity.
I'd definitely allow him a stealth without the NPC being suspicious of him, or a deception check with advantage from charm person to stop him from being able to react.

After the spell wears off, do they know you charmed them?

Component pouch is 25gp.
Foci are much less.

Well. Now I just looked it up. And I apologize to everyone who corrected me earlier in the thread. I thought spell slot would do both instances of the d12s. Witch bolt is no longer as good as I thought it was lol

It literally says that in the spell description. So yeah, they do.

They do, you need to be a 14th level enchantment school wizard to remove that (Assuming they fail the secondary mind-wipe save).

Sorcerers can use sorcery points to get roughly as many extra spells per day as the wizard. They also generally have better archetype features; compare 13+Dex AC and unlimited flight with a small boost in hit points and being able to briefly take control of undead.

I won't deny that wizards are better than sorcerers (the spellbook alone is massive), just that it's not as much of a blowout as it's often portrayed.

...

>Sorcerers can use sorcery points to get roughly as many extra spells per day as the wizard.

At the cost of not using metamagic at all

Okay, assuming everything else being even and stuff has a 50/50 shot at hitting...

Witch bolt will do 65 damage on average, assuming it lasts the full duration and it hits. That's around 33 damage on average, but that's a bit misleading since it's very all or nothing, and it requires a minute to do that.

10 rounds worth of poison spray will also do around 33 damage on average, but has more consistency in doing so because it isn't all decided in a single shot.

Being very generous and assuming one free hit on behalf of Witch Bolt, you're talking 30 extra damage...over the course of a minute. That's roughly 5 extra points of damage per round. Of course, this all assumes that there's a single target that has over 60 health for Witch Bolt to get its full value. If it doesn't get the full value, then the burst potential or AoE of anything else would be better.

They don't get unlimited flight, they get limited flight, using those sorcery points that you said they need to use on spells to keep up with wizard.

13+Dex is Mage armour, they have mage armour, a free level 1 spell a day that every spellcaster has if possible. Metamagic is a nice feature... But they have to spend their sorcery points on spells to keep up with Wizards.

Wizards typically have nothing else they can do with Arcane Recovery. Sorcerers have the option of Metamagic or extra spells or a combination of the two.

And it's not a one-way transfer. So if you wanna claim that Metamagic is much more valuable than those few extra spells, then they can sacrifice another spell slot or two (moreso at higher levels) to get more of it.

Yes but at that point hopefully they're dead from your auto critical damage and sneak attack dice or close to it.

I mean, unsheathing a sword is considered part of movement in the PHB, so I figured it would be one fluid motion where they have their backs turned or mid sentence or whatever the rogue could attack the "friend". Since he has no reason to suspect the rogue would attack him I thought it would be the rogue declaring his attack, then initiatives rolled, and the "friend" would be surprised because of it. And if the assassinate autocrit doesn't kill them they go into normal combat from there

See I initially found the ability to get more spellslots by using sorcery points a neat way to give Sorcerers more spells without needing to alter their table, but then they went and ruined it by giving the Wizard so many easy ways of getting spells back.

I see Sorcerers needing to burn all these resources to match a Wizard as a problem. A Wizard should be struggling to match a Sorcerer's spells per day, not the other way around.

Let the Wizard have their advantages be some of the weirder esoteric utility spells and the ability to swap their loadout more readily.

That's not how surprise works.

Surprise gives you an extra round of combat.

>Witch bolt will do 65 damage on average, assuming it lasts the full duration and it hits. >That's around 33 damage on average

That is entirely not how surprise works.

Page 189, PHB. Initiatives are all rolled then surprise is determined. A surprised creature can't take actions or move on its first turn and can't take a reaction until the turn ends.

>65 damage assuming it hits
>assuming it hits

What's the average of 65 and 0?

Surprised is also a condition that needs something to trigger it. Being friends with someone, which charm person DOESN'T EVEN DO, since friendly acquaintance=/=friend, does not mean that drawing a weapon on them means they are unable to react.

Getting them to turn around, however, probably would.

Having knowledge that the person is there is enough to negate surprise, if the charmed person is totally and completely unaware or heavily enthralled and distracted by something and are neither looking at you or listening even passively to what is around them, then you might be able to get it.

Otherwise they get the "Hey, wait what are you doing with that knife?!" moment.

Which, to the extent that they are entirely unwitting and unaware, would require a check, which charm person gives you advantage on anyway. Stop trying to cheese the spell, and use it as it blatantly says it can be.

See the post below you. That's exactly how surprise works. The rogue declares he is going to attack the NPC that's charmed so combat is beginning. The charmed NPC would have surprise (in this example), then everyone rolls initiatives and take turns in order, with the NPC doing nothing because he's surprised.

>The charmed NPC would have surprise
Except he doesn't because nothing is triggering said condition. It doesn't just magically occur here, any more than it magically occurs when the NPC your talking to decides to shove a sword into you.

Assuming they suddenly become deaf and unaware of your presence, then yes.

"Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter." Still page 189. The charmed target would notice the rogue. But wouldn't notice a THREAT. And that's the important distinction. You wouldn't naturally assume random acquaintances are gonna try to hurt you irl and neither would the target. So when the rogue attacks him, he's surprised. He didn't notice a threat.

I'm not the one trying to cheese it I was just commenting that that would probably qualify for a surprise round. Assassin is more interesting when you don't cheese magic like suggestion to use it.

>So when the rogue attacks him, he's surprised. He didn't notice a threat.
Attacks don't stop time, and you could potentially hear, see, or feel a threat from a seeming friendly acquaintance. Being sorta friendly with someone in no way makes you a helpless baby when communicating, if someone takes a swing at you in a bar, you may well notice him doing so and react in time. You also might not, initiative, or they might be able to keep you from noticing, stealth or deception. And guess what, you have ADVANTAGE to said deception check, because of the charmed condition. Use the tools it gives you.

Just fucking point over their shoulder while they're charmed and say 'jesus christ a tiger' and then stab them. Whatever your DM says counts as surprise is what works.

Deception check, with advantage, DC dependent on likelihood of tiger in area, from dc5 to dc30 depending on environment.
>in a tiger pen at a zoo? dc5
>flying through the sky with a fly spell? dc30

Yeah sorcerer compared to most other classes is pretty balanced, but because wizard is powerful and the easiest class to compare sorcerer to there's a lot of whining.

So really, the answer is once again to nerf Wizards.

"Jesus christ, a pedantic ass!"
"Jesus, a goblin!"
"Jesus Marie, there's a gelatinous cube behind you!"
"Holy shit Marcus, a giant spider!"
"Sweet Pelor, the lawyers are back!"
"Forsooth! Thine mother doth tread the cobbles behind thee!"

Flavor wise, Fae. Mechanically, either the star knowledge patron or fiend patron for bag of rats abuse.

Does the target of a warlocks hex spell know he/she has been hexed until the damage is dealt? Spell description doesn't give me much.

Unless it's actually happening, its gonna need a deception check to be enough of a distraction to allow for the surprised condition. So depending on the manner the PC wants to try it, it could be very simple or not. It is NOT, however, 100% automatic due to charm person, any more than the barkeep you've been chatting with is allowed to get surprise on you when shoots you with his crossbow for free.
If you are lying, a persons passive insight might be high enough to also see through you, resulting in a failure. If you try to do it stealthily, they might have high enough perception.

My ruling as the best dm in this thread is that the target feels crappy, and if their passive arcana or insight checks equal or exceed the warlocks spell save dc, they identify the crappy feelings as magical

Makes sense.

Unless a spell does damage, is visible/audible/tactile, or specifically states that the target becomes aware of it, the target does not know that a spell has been placed on it.

I'd rule that they would feel a bit off, since standard activities would include unrolled, but still present, "ability check"-esque situations.
Strength? They feel a tad weak, their loads a bit heavier.
Dex? They keep dropping mundane items
Con? Got a bit of a cough, or stomach ache
Int? Can't seem to recall things, words always on the tip of the tongue
Wis? Bit absentminded, things keep slipping their mind, CRAP you just ran into a pool and stepped in that puddle
Cha? Your in a bad mood, its like you woke up on the wrong side of the bed and everyone notices

Addendum: If the target sees you cast the spell and has a good enough arcana skill, then they would know.

Characters do not exist in stasis, you do not freeze time while you are deciding what to do. The second you say "I attack him." the character in question goes "Hey, buddy you've been looking at me funny, why are you reaching for that knife, oh dude!" and is not suprised.

There is a difference between "Et Tu, Brutus" suprise and the actual condition suprise which is more "Huh, why is there blood on my shirt, why does my chest hurt.."

sure

That is a good point, but could just be a "bad luck" or "rough day" kinda thing that they just accept so they wouldn't immediately leap to magic unless like said they saw you cast it

If you guys didn't notice, the PHB says that the DM decides who's surprised based on the situation.

A lot of this is so dependent on context that it's useless to try and argue such small details.

>Guild of mages escalate have a secret contest where they attempt to curse the local barkeep with as many curses, spells, enchantments and hexes as possible until he realizes something is wrong, kind of like a magical version of pop-up-pirate.

I think the anti surprise guy is trying to tell him that DMs shouldn't hand out surprise as a role-playing reward, for balance purposes. Or something. It's hard to tell what his position is because it seems so contrary to the rules and general principles of God dming.

Any good Paladin/Warlock builds?

>Not knowing about the elemental evil companion

It's mentioned every second thread at least, read nigga, read.

Sorcerer should use spell point as default!

Go far enough into paladin for smite and far enough into warlock to get spells. Then level whichever however much you want. Easy.

Paladin 3, warlock 17.

Bladelock for damage (use polearm), chain lock for utility and advantage.

Level paladin first to get armor proficiency.

I don't know if a random NPC I thought was my friend tried to stab me out of the blue, I'd be pretty surprised.

the effect being that being charged with so many spells literally made his beer buzz, and now he is a wealthy man for his famous buzzing beer
"bargo's buzzing beer, it gives a ring to your voice!"

Coppy the spell mastery feature from wizards and have sorcerer get it earlyer (lvl 12ish).
Half spell points recovered on short rest.

Beat a DC 14 on an arcana check to learn a new spell after seeing it cast within the past 12 hours.
Spend one hour doing so.
Spells learned this way don't count toward the spells known table.

Surprised, as a person/character? Yes.
Surprised, as in entirely unable to react for a round? Probably not, unless he really got the drop on you somehow, like being entirely unable to notice it (stealth) or he was really convincing at keeping you off guard (deception).