Why are Chaos Space Marines so lame compared to Chaos Warriors?

Imperial Guardsmen and the Inquisition holding back all of the traitor Space Marine Legions would be pretty neat. Might even lead to them cooperating with xenos to hold back the threat. Perhaps the Imperial Cult wouldn't come into being in a setting where literally all the space marines betrayed humanity.

If anything I see the Imperial Cult being stronger. A theme I rarely see examined is the fact that ths Space Marines are walking hypocrisy of the Imperial creed - they aren't human, they're post human engineered beings. And yet they're revered. It would make sense for the admech who Revere human technology and scientific accomplishments, but space marine biology only pays superficial lip service to human biology

In this different setting that is now sure to spawn it's own autistic general and don't get me wrong i approve, space Marines would be the penultimate example that only PURE HUMANITY can be trusted, both because of the Marines Betrayel and because in the end humanity still beat them back

Fuck man, actually got side with this user here

They are revered because they are part Emperor, and the Emperor himself engineered them. They also revere the Emperor who is also a post human. It's not hypocritical at all. They are literally God's angels.

>Chaos Warriors
>a decent chance of getting killed by a normal human trooper
>frontline elf troops shit all over them
>so do dwarfs
>WoC rely on massive numbers and daemon allies to achieve anything

>CSM
>A killing machine that only be countered by another marine equivalent
>Normal humans stand no chance of beating them
>Eldar guardians are smashed aside by them
>Elite warriors in warbands in the hundreds or thousands that can take over planets on their own or savage entire sectors

How were the WoC menacing compared to the CSM? Their track record has more failures than the CSM by a mile. Pre-Archaon they weren't even a threat to the world.

>>Normal humans stand no chance of beating them
laughingcadians.jpg

>Normal humans stand no chance of beating them
Except those 13 times when they couldn't even take one fucking planet from those humans.

Set up for this what-if

>The Emperor actually does what a lot of anons always said he should have done - explains chaos to the primarchs and his plans for pyschic post humanity

>However, he up and fucking dies for ??? Reason (Chaos? Assassins? Betrayed? Fakes death so he can go be autistic in his lab? Maybe he seats himself on the golden throne because FUCKING MAGNUS still manages to fuck up the web way project by playing with fire
>With the Emperor gone the imperium is in disarray and there's a successional crisis
>Malcador forms an interregnum govt composed of earth Highlands
>But the space Marines, particularly Horus, think as the Emperor's favored sons they should rule
>The Malcadoran faction is like nuh-uh, you were developed to be tools for humanity, not to rule it
>Civil war
>Most primarchs side under Horus
>Sanguinius and Dorn are the only ones to stay loyal
>Imperium isn't totally off.guard this time so is able to establish an army
>It's still Horus and still.space Marines though so they get their assess kicked
>Only thing the loyalists have going for them is in this version the rebels don't have chaos support as it hasn't fully taken hold/spread everywhere, and only Horus is holding the primarchs together
>Horus kicks ass all the way till Terra, where a last ditch defense by Sanguinius, Dorn, and Malcador working together are able to resist his attack and kill him aboard his flagship
>Dorn and Sanguinius are killed in the effort and made martyrs
>Malcador becomes Stewart of the Imperium and rules with council of high lords

Cadians are assisted by Titan legions, Admech robo-forces, and 8 full chapters that are there 24/7 and more bisides. It's the most fortified area in the Imperium next to Terra.

And I ain't taking grand scale war. I am talking about personal encounters. We have stories of normal dudes cleaving through WoC. That ain't going to happen with CSM (except in that one time with Calgar's wankery but that's the exception that proves the rule).

Stop being an autist and realize he is talking about the lore/the glory days when Chaos Knights were the hardest hitting units in the game.

This is like you going into a "why are Space Marines so badass" thread and claiming they're not because MEQ die to Eldar and Tau.

>With Horus gone the rebel forces splinter as everyone wants to be in charge or hates each other still
>Robot fucks off to Imperium Secondus to establish Space Byzantium
>Other primarchs fuck off in different directions becoming their own rival states similar to Alexander's generals post his death
>Without the Emperor to guide them many fall to chaos and retreat into the eye of Terror
>Remaining loyal Space Marines are sent on penitent crusade to chase the dispersing rebel forces and either die martyrs or are inducted into Malcadoran new program to develop the Grey Knights
>Space Marines are treated as tools and servants now, not lords in their own right, and are forbidden from political and military rank, cannot command their own armies, only advise
>They are still used as living super weapons and surgical forces, but no longer operate independently of the army
>Admech splits and half fucks off to Imperium Secondus to push the boundaries of post humanism with Roboute

The 12 Crusades were not mean to take Cadia. They were either small raids or big war efforts to gain an advantage or forward a goal. Only the 13th was about breaking Cadia.

Going over to WoC. 12 TIMES! 12 LORDS OF THE END TIME. Each and everyone of them were tasked with blowing up the world. Everyone of them failed at the first level.

Now that's embarrassing. How menacing for my sides indeed.

>he is talking about the lore

Chaos Knights get trounced by normal Bret Knights or Blazing Sun Knights. Again, normal humans have a shot at the WoC. Amd i am intentionally ignoring the elves in this.

I am not impressed.

>Each and everyone of them were tasked with blowing up the world.
Nope, it was Archaon job.

>18 full powered space Marine legions without the death toll of Istvaan V losing to 2 Legions

mmm not? Chaos Cavarly was strong, the only comparable one was those Vampire Knights (stronger) the graal knights (more or less same level). Cold ones cavalry (elves and lizards) were good too.

Also, elite Elves and Dwarves had a say vs chaos warriors, perhaps temple guard and grave guard.
The other just shat their pants.

Just a rough idea. Can figure something out. Maybe half the legions stay loyal, but I can't imagine any of the primarchs willingly being disbanded post war

Maybe they all die in battle with each other as the war grinds into a stalemate

...

OP you need some Iron Warriors broski. We're the serious motherfuckers who don't meme around, and will fuck your shit up six ways to sunday.

uwot

Statwise Bretonnians shit all over Chaos, with a Grail Knight skullfucking a Chosen something solid.

Ironically in the Brettonia books a Chosen kills a legendary Grail Knight with everything on the line in 1 on 1

It's pretty hilarious

Shoulda just given the man his fucking baby. Or yknow, killed it

the difference is one is made of GAR and METAL and the other a bunch of daemon-cucks with daddy issues. chaos knights are turbo vikings who seize power, csm are failures who hide their inadequacy behind the warp.

Actually, WoC peoples haven't gotten over the fact that Sigmar and the Southern people defeated them and then spent a long winder genociding them. Thousands of years later, and they are still whining about it.

Add to that that their most successful Chaos Lord ever is a southerner. Now who is the cuck?

>Add to that that their most successful Chaos Lord ever is a southerner.
Fuck off AoS.

Not even AoS. Archaon is the only Chaos Lord ever to pass all the tests of the Chaos Gods and claim all the Treasures of Chaos.

At least Abaddon is of the old legion blood. Archaon is a southern mut who has proven himself superior to the Norsemen and other Chaos tribesmen.

You cuck

>AoS player
>calling someone else cuck

I am not an AoS player and you are still a cuck.

And Morkar, Asvar Kul, and whoever was the everchosen

>I am not an AoS player
>Chaos cock-sucker
>not AoS player
liar.
Nope.

Truth is that the simple silhouette of a single Chaos Marine in the fog is a hundred times more iconic and fear inducing than 100 emo kids in Chaos Armour yelling death threats.

Everything is perspective.

Joking aside, it's likely due to CSM being traitors and the Northmen just being what they always were. Being a rebel always gets you regarded with distaste as it's every edgy 15y/o's linkin park/slipknot soundtracked dream.

>Cannot into argument
>calls me an AoS player for citing that WoC suck compared CSM instead

This is the most retarded trolling I have ever seen.

>Northmen just being what they always were.

Norsemen are technically traitors against humanity and rebels against the nature older of the world.

The chaos dwarfs make all their cool shit in exchange for slaves and stuff

Because of the way they're always portrayed as edgelords and lunatics in BL fluff with little to no justification for anything they do, not even having fun with it to begin with. And then they consistently get BTFO by normal loyalists which makes them feel like insane weak loyalists.

In the end the impression you get is not that of ancient veterans of the great crusade and the horus heresy come to take back the empire that they forged from the rotting hands of the False Emperor for the glory of Chaos, but that of deranged teens with daddy issues getting put out of their misery by the hero Loyalists.

Tl;dr they don't get shit done while also being edgy little faggots so they're neither sympathetic nor menacing

Norsemen didn't betray shit.
They're a different civilization, and probably think all other human civilizations are the actual traitors/rebels for they do not acknowledge the true Gods of the north and pray to weak south gods instead (which, to be honest, is kinda true since no other god seems to get shit done except Mary Suegmar).

Archaon's father was a Norseman, while his mother was a Southerner.

>Archaon's father was a Norseman, while his mother was a Southerner.

Exactly, like I said. He is a southern mut. Impure and a not a true Norseman. Archaon's mother cucked the north by spawning the Lord of the End Times with her Southern genes.

More like the opposite.
Arch.'s father cucked the South by creating its destroyer from raping a southern woman. The South (and the world) was literally destroyed by a Norseman's cock. The same way he raped Archaon's mother, he raped the entire South and the whole world.

His seed generated he who brough the demise of the Empire, and the womb which birthed its destroyer was part of the south itself. Ironic, isn't it?

in 40k no matter how powerful someone is you can just shoot him with a giant gun to death

in fantasy you have to get up close and personal

To be fair a chosen us not just a regular chaos warrior. In older versions only chosen wore chaos armor and were rare. Compared to the heavy armor other chaos warriors wore, and they already were the elite of the northern warriors.

Depends on the north men in question. Ulric, Taal and Ursun were venerated in Norsca too. Much to the dismay of the southern churches.

What if none of the legions stay loyal, but none of them go full chaos, either? As a fractured whole, space marines become a misguided force of eternal crusading, chapter-on-chapter grudges, forced recruitment, and xenos hatred. The galaxy's angels of death, but not the Imperium's.

>chaos warriors menacing
>lose to guys in floppy hats

Are you talkin about Egil Styrbjorn?

'Cause was a Chaos Champion, the favourite warrior of Khorne in that moment, not a lowly Chosen, and it was still a close fight.

Because they don't try too hard like CSM do.

To be fair the power level in Warhammer is inconsistent.
GW writers are hacks most of the time and anyone can kill a Chaos general only for the sake of worf effect.

I think it's strange how everyone's constantly bringing up how CSM can't get shit done when Chaos Warriors couldn't do much either. There has been (to my knowledge) at least 2 or 3 Everchosen before Archaon and they all failed their jobs. Most of the fluff about Chaos Warriors in general is essentially "They did super good and killed a lot of people but then they got fucked up and went home". Sure eventually Archaon got their shit together and ended the world and Abaddon is (probably) in the process of doing the same now. Chaos across all of Warhammer is the big threat that loses constantly because if they ever won the setting would literally end.

You played them religiously?

You what you slaughtered your opponents and offered their skulls to Khorne? Infected yourself with serious diseases? I mean sure I'd imagine you've got some hygiene problems and diabetes is fairly likely but that doesn't really count. You held a drug-fueled orgy instead of finishing the games? Kept pulling that guy style house rule changes midway through every turn just to get an advantage?

Choose your words. Words have meanings.

because chaos warriors are a force with little analogs or equals, while chaos marines are just marines, but chaotic.

>Words have meanings.
Some of those meanings are also different and dictated by context.

>Archaon's mother cucked the north by spawning the Lord of the End Times with her Southern genes

In the novel she actually indices a miscarriage on purpose before Belakor retcons it.

To expand on this

compare pic related to vid related
youtu.be/2iO9cGopQq0

...not true

The Chosen has superior WS and same stats all round with a Grail Knight. The Grail Knight has a ward save, and that's it.

Chaos Warrios are big superhumans with huge shoulders in a setting where most people are normal.

Chaos Space Marines fight other big superhumans with huge shoulders, making them considerably less threatening in comparison. Adding to that, they lose constantly while regular Space Marines are wanked to no end.

It's also, simply, because the "regular human" equivalent in Warhammer Fantasy are regular people that will have to get close and personal to those gigantic vikings. Regular humans in 40k will just use bigger guns to blow up the Chaos Space Marines.

And regardless of what that fag was saying up there, both the fluff and the crunch confirm it. Regular Warriors are comparable to most elite units, Chosen are absolutely fucking ridiculous, and a Chaos Lord is about the toughest Lord in the game.

None asked kids opinion.

I hate "Age of 7-12" so much. I've endured the GW abuse for years and even played their shitty "random charge ranges". But Age of Shitmar was the final nail in the coffin that made me quit and play Warmachine instead.

This isn't a blog

>that moment when realize you forgot to send your scouts into the misty forest

This isn't youtube either, so cease with the retarded complaints.

Convince me lads, do i buy the CSM start collecting or the slaves to darkness start collecting this weekend.

Very agressive fishing?

Make them cannibals who invade others for meat.

Thanks user.

I don't play either game, but WoC seem to stand out far more than CSM. CSM have the same silhouette as loyalist SM, for example. Maybe a couple more spikes.

It's like how Ajax the Great in Infinity appears as some colossal sledgehammer-swinging dual-wielding psycho motherfucker when he's (probably) about on par physically with a Tactical Marine in 40k. The scale is different, different elements are emphasised and different features stand out.

In one setting, a big dude with an axe can be an unstoppable powerhouse charging in and breaking heads. He's the epitome of "badass normal warrior" and draws attention from players.

In another setting, badass axe warriors are dime-a-dozen. They're equally as badass, just as skilled, but they don't stand out. The focus in THAT setting is the rogue in the back, who's just bribed supply wagons to "lose" their cargo before a crucial battle. The focus is on THAT guy who's skills might be less (or more) impressive, but stand out better against the backdrop.

>Convince me lads
About what?

I'm gonna say Infinity vs 40K again.

Infinity, every model is a major threat. Most things have 1 wound, so any unlucky roll spells death. A sniper or a Total Reaction drone with a good vantage point can lock down the entire table with supressing fire and good cover.

40k has damage allocation rules that mean a reaction shot from a basic grunt is PROBABLY not going to one-shot your officer.

40k players, how many times have you seen a kitted terminator squad taken out in one volley from some ork boys?

Infinity players, how many times have you seen your melee powerhouse taken out by a Fusilier with a knife?

CSM seem less effective because they're up against, functionally, themselves. They're fighting other marines, but with LESS magic bullshit...and losing.

The WoC are running in against cannons, muskets, vampires, lizard people, tree huggers, giant lightning wheels and (potentially) Sigmarines.

Then why are you talking?

Nobody complained but this guy who is a cuck by the way.

>CSM seem less effective because they're up against, functionally, themselves. They're fighting other marines, but with LESS magic bullshit...and losing.

The CSM are running with outdated poorly maintained hardware, low geneseed, suffering through crippling madness and mutation that makes fighting as a disciplined force quite hard.

>Chaos space marines menacing
>Lose to people with NO floppy hats

Almost as if the whole chaos thing is a super lame and stupid idea

this is a complaint you're complaining about an user expressing an opinion on a taiwanese cardcuts plane.

Not really. They are at a disadvantage against an Empire of a million worlds and its near infinite resources. But that gives them the underdog appeal which the WoC don't have.

No, this is a statement of fact.

Wasn' the armor magically conjured and fixed to your body by chaos the second you become a Chaos Warrior? I remember my friend who played chaos when we were teenagers saying something like that.

They are either bought from the Chaos Gods or earned from the Chaos Gods.

The Chaos armour over time fuses with the WoC body. The WoC no longer needs to eat or drink. As long as he kills, he will remain alive.

There's no point in trying to reason with whining autists, may as well just drop it.

But if I drop it, then how will they learn?

We know of 2"crusades"
One made great kingdom ruined, made one of the biggest human cities nightmare filled madhouse and caused Empire to reform
And it was led JUST by a chapion of Khorne alone

The other crusade blew up world

Hardly comparable to abaddon

There has been 13 Everchosen. The fact that we only know just 4 (Morkar, Asvar Khul, Archaon, and the guy who was possessed by Be'lakor and then died when Be'lakor expolded him), goes to show that they really didn't have much impact on the world.

Only if we ignore the blatant passive aggressivity that brought you to post this statement in an attempt to nullify or silence the opinion you don't like.

If the above isn't the case then you will surely be able to tell us what is the absolutely valid reason that compelled you to underline an obvious albeit arguable statement.

DAMMIT WHAT DID I TELL YOU?!

Because Warriors of chaos gave a reason as to why they are what they are and were not 100% edgy moody losers.

Warriors of chaos had backgrounds not just about hating the Empire, and had a mythos not just about the Empire.

They were Viking Analogues, so they raided and pillaged, but they also traded and explored.

That isn't impressive, it just makes the CSM look like losers

>Hardly comparable to abaddon
Top fucking kek any 40k character better than Age of Shitmar stuff.

Please, HH is a bigger slap in the dick than AoS ever was.

>buying anything from neo-GW

>Chaos warriors
>Anything but total chumps in silly furcoats

Reminder that the earliest rough amalgamation of the Skaven clans marched into the North with just basic clanrats and numbers,

Reminder that the migrating Skaven then split into smaller factions (One traveling, east, south, etc. ) and the North-bound force STILL conquered the land that would become Hellpit

Reminder that Clan Moulder don't even recognize the pathetic man-thing tribesmen as a threat and instead see them as convenient lifestock within poaching distance

Reminder that no Chaos Lord ever came close to retaking Hellpit and it is said that all but the most insane would rather battle the forces of Kislev than dare to fight Moulders horrific creations

Reminder than it took the Tomb Kings Prince Apophas and his scarab armies of all things to threaten Hellpit during the End Times (Who until then slaughtered everything within reach via Stormfiends)

Rats:1
Warriors:0

YER NOT MY DAD

read too late

Well, basically my point. It's not important that north men are pisspoor savages like that user said, sinxe they don't need ressources to arm themselves.

>Cannon fodder: the race
>Being worth anything