Warcraft Lore and RPG Discussion

Just In Time edition

Discuss the lore and viability of Warcraft as a tabletop setting.

Previous thread:

First for I thought new thread editions were decided on the last topic in the previous thread, not random OP urges.

>
To be fair, the deal was "Accept my gift and I'll make you guys understand the universe, which is what all of you collectively want apparently" without showing them the small print about having cosmic radioactive magical star uranium pumped up your asshole and inevitably becoming you an illogically malicious asshole, yourself. It's a fine line between "buyer getting tricked" and "buyer not giving a shit about the consequences".

Also, if I may chime in that late in the discussion: I believe the big offense people took in the Draenei retcon was that it showed indifference of Blizzard or Metzen in particular. Remember, he "forgot" the Eredar lore when he wrote or at least approved of the Draenei, plus the whole thing reeked of the same inconsistency that a twelve-year old has when they try to write something for the first time where they establish something, then later have a "much cooler idea, I swear u guis!" and just slam it in there with no regards to how much suspension of disbelief they could expect from their audience.

In hindsight, it was the first of several instances of Blizzard or Activision making it obvious how little they cared for something in which people get really emotionally invested, which is why I can accept Draenei pretty fine seeing how I got my unreasonably strong attachment to Warcraft abused so many times I've essentially become dead inside. The porn helps, as well.

>First for I thought new thread editions were decided on the last topic in the previous thread, not random OP urges.
>thatswhereyourewrongkiddo.jpg

I make 90% of these threads, and the OP is usually just a random picture I already have saved, and some sort of saying or meme associated with them

the Nozdormu edition is because I wasn't sure if I'd get home in time to make the thread before the last one 404'd. But I forgot how long threads take to die after they hit page 7 or 8

>In hindsight, it was the first of several instances of Blizzard or Activision making it obvious how little they cared for something in which people get really emotionally invested,
if I cared that much about the draenei, I'd be more annoyed about Akama sperging out over draenei being shit fighters and inexplicably blaming Illidan for it

>plus the whole thing reeked of the same inconsistency that a twelve-year old has when they try to write something for the first time where they establish something, then later have a "much cooler idea, I swear u guis!" and just slam it in there with no regards to how much suspension of disbelief they could expect from their audience.
That pretty much describes most of Metzen's writing. And, to be honest, I can't hate him for that. The guy is pretty much like a little kid telling of all the cool stories he came up after reading comic books. Whether he's a good writer or not, he was genuinely exited about his work and loved the stuff he had made.

>Garrosh, we need to make sure your parents meet at the Enchantment Under The Sea Dance, or you'll never be born!

>Blackfuse invented the Iron Star so Garrosh could create 1.21 gigawatts

> Iron Stars leave two trails of fire when they set off

literally the deepest lore. How can other leaders even compete?

>See recap of rogue class hall campaign lore
>Detheroc has somehow convinced Anduin to launch a direct attack on the Horde, only being stopped at the last moment
>Anduin Wrynn
>Initiating a war
How?

Dreadlords, son.

Didn't you watch the cinematic?
>You must be willing to FITE

Andindun is growing up because fightan is manly and manly means mature.

>Tfw no ancient as the earth Cairne to teach all these wet-behind-the-ear shits how to unify a people and consolidate power in the face of adversity
>Tfw poor Baine still doesn't get time to shine and probably won't bang Mayla Highmountain

>1. Dreadlords can do mind control, and have done so to Paladins and Priests or those who would be before.

>2. Nobody likes Sylvanas and Greymane's already whispering in his ear about dealing with her. Anduin knew exactly what he was doing sendind Genn and Sky Admiral Rogers to Stormheim.

>3. Anduin doesn't know everything. He may believe in peace, but he's still messed up a little over Varian's death and he can't be everywhere at once. Plus, he's always been more trusting than Varian. Easier to lie to. The mistake the Dreadlord in the comic made was revealing himself.

>4. He's still sore over losing Aunt Jaina to the Dark Side and it's entirely possible Detheroc (who knows Sylvanas) convinced him that the Banshee Queen was mind-controlling both of them the last time they spoke so as to drive them apart. Remember, Detheroc knows that Sylvanas has that power.

>5. Any combination or lack thereof of the above, including any reasons I might not have mentioned.

>6. JOKE ANSWER: He mind-controlled an SI:7 agent back in Mists so he could stay on Pandaria, spent way too much time with Wrathion, and can in fact use Shadowform. Anduin is not what he seems.

The Horde is shit.

>Anduin knew exactly what he was doing sendind Genn and Sky Admiral Rogers to Stormheim.
You mean preventing creation of Scourge 2.0?

Yes, but also giving Genn exactly what he wanted.

If Anduin really just wanted the Aegis, he'd have sent Mekkatorque or something. Someone who would focus on the job and avoid attacking the Warchief of the Horde.

But sending Genn, when he knows that's where Sylvanas is going? Sending the one person the world KNOWS hates Sylvanas more than anyone? He knew fighting would break out, and Sylvanas knows that he knew.

That's a declaration of war right there. Was it the right thing to do, morally? Yes - Sylvanas is objectively Evil and even the guy who put her on the throne never trusted her. She even moved the capital of the Horde to Undercity, rather than actually have her seat in Orgrimmar where she can be seen in the open.

Was it the right thing to do, POLITCALLY? No. Not at all. Not when there's the Legion to deal with.

>Yes, but also giving Genn exactly what he wanted.
Nah he just realised that if there one man who will knew how to act if the Horde starts making some serious shit in Stormjheim it would be Genn, and guess what? It's worked.
>That's a declaration of war right there.
The war was declared in Broken Shore.
>Not when there's the Legion to deal with.
And that's why he sends single ship, while the Horde spending the entire fleet with full ground invasion army just to find immortality for Warchief.

Alliance and Horde being in Stormheim isn't about finding the aegis.
The Horde are there for Sylvanas' schemes and the Alliance are there to stop her.

>Was it the right thing to do, POLITCALLY? No.

I'd have to disagree. Just because the Forsaken aren't as powerful as the Legion doesn't mean they should be allowed to operate unopposed.

You are all giving Anduin too much credit...

He is a young king with too little prestige to be respected..

He "sent" Greymane because Greymane just wanted to go and Anduin was too weak politically to say "no, you dont"...

Greymane is the most experienced and pro-active (almost) human leader, he is also was a king far before Anduin birth...

Anduin dosent even have a good reason to say "no", the Alliance is in grief, the world is ending with a demon invasion. The people want a strong leader like Greymane, just picture how the entire nation would be mad with him if he stopped Greymane, the guy that wants to take arms against the end of the world, that wants to avenge his father (against the horde or against demons? welll people just dont care)

If I remember well there was a clear instruction to not engage the Horde on battle on the Stormhein mission, this was repeated twice I think....

And Greymane is actually taking charge of all Alliance military and will oppose Anduin chain of command if he steps on his vengance plan. Thats all the "Vengance goes with the Gilneas brigade" mean...

A civil war would be very interesting, But instead of a a Garrosh 2.0 I really want that Anduin grows as a leader and make Greymane chill out a bit after all the shit.

The Dreadlord? Dindt played that part, probably he filled Anduin with a bunch of lies and false intel and he was too insecure to say no.

People will actually hate Anduin for that but I am fine... Its a good start for a "king" character, people actually want him to be a badass but a character that starts failing and grows with the story is far better than another Mary Sue...

People sometimes forget that this shit started in the early nineties, in a time when story in games wasn't considered all that important, and the idea of a carefully-constructed continuity stretching across years was actually just something soap operas did.

>Can use shadowform
>Might be a bit evil
>Problems with jaina
>Blonde and human and young and prince/king
>Uses the light
Tell me... more.

>If I remember well there was a clear instruction to not engage the Horde on battle on the Stormhein mission, this was repeated twice I think....
Anduin tells Greymane and Rogers to not engage the Horde unless "absolutely necessary". as soon as the PC gets briefed on the mission in Stormheim, they're told that Rogers plans to make it necessary

>To be fair, the deal was "Accept my gift and I'll make you guys understand the universe, which is what all of you collectively want apparently" without showing them the small print about having cosmic radioactive magical star uranium pumped up your asshole and inevitably becoming you an illogically malicious asshole, yourself. It's a fine line between "buyer getting tricked" and "buyer not giving a shit about the consequences".
From the lore about Thal'kiel, I am willing to believe that Archimonde knew from the start what they were getting into. And he should, as Thal'kiel's former right hand, and he kept the Skull of the First Man'ari.

Ner'zhul please go.

Imma gonna get a new body for when you kill bolvar you anarchist fucks.

It's him or Thrall

I remember when this drigga payed me to kill him.
Payment to be made, after I killed him.
Payable by him, after he was dead.
... honestly I should have been suspicious.
But what do you know, he came through.
It was a little unsettling actually.

Oh no you don't, I already kicked your ghostly remnant's ass all the way to the shadow lands, and got two swords out of it.

Step aside, you had your own chance. Now it's MY turn to finish the world up after Gul'dan has died.

Reminder ODEEEEEN did nothing wrong.

>finally get around to do siege of orgrimmar
>pandaren who joined the horde getting beaten to death for info
>serveshimright.jpg

>gave up the Ages of Agrabah to a bunch of foreign midgets instead of it's rightful owner GOD KING Snowball

>right

>refusing to give the AYYJISS to the Burning Legion
>wrong

Skobald proved his worff, Odeen
the ages belongs to him

Gåååååd Keeeeeng Skååååååvaaaaald is a pushover who had to cheat to get there. He followed Odyn-chan's beloved senpais after they had cleared everything else for him.

>watch Varian's trailer for HOTS
>Jaina is the narrator
>He was the greatest king of all
>The greatest father
>He died for our sins
>He kissed babies
>He cured everyone's disease with his stare
>He was an example for us all even millennia old warriors

The whole Alliance sucking up to him is even more cringy than the Thrall wankery in Cata. I'm glad Gul'dan roasted him and even that moment had to be ruined with Genn doing a dramatic 'NO' before ending.

>that mirroring of the Warcraft 1 and 2 covers
I can't believe I never noticed that before. Is Legion cinematickino?

I appreciate that Odyn was true to his mythological counterpart's Master of Disguise bullshit.

It gave me the same warm feeling I get whenever Matches Malone shows up in Batman comics.

The Varian wank has been happening ever since that fucker came back.

I wish Stormwind had never come back, whole place just pumps out wankers and twats. Fucking Varian and Fucking Bolver too.

I am not sure why people just care about Bolvar at all...

Blizzard print him as a uncorrupted and based guy that endure the torture of the Lich King, Jaina says that he was a hero, loved by his people.. and what the fuck he did anyway to deserve all this prise?

What he did before Legion despite.. well... die?

Varian wank was also silly, the guy was a jerk exactly like Garrosh, started a war, become a better person on offscreen and no one ever touches the fact he was a dick.

Bolvar was also regent of Stormwind while Varian was AWOL.

I know... fine job he did..

But I was asking if he actually did something that justify all this wank...

I know that on vanilla we had few racials npcs to care about, but for god sake... Darkshire mayor and his hot daughter are more interesting than him.

There's a quote from Metzen saying he wanted people to want to follow Varian into hell, I just wanted to shank the bloke most of the time.

So Bolver stood there, in the throne room. I don't understand why that can be considered appealing by anyone. Before going off to get rekt by a zombie who was cucking his leader for a demon. And killing a Lich, who was simply the first of a long line of members of the church deciding that they were better off in cults than sticking with the Church of Light.

I didn't like Trion much either, his story in the Plague Lands was good, but beyond that it was just irritating having him in my face all through Wrath when there were a bunch of other characters who had a better connection to Arthas and better justifications for being his "arch-nemisis".

Still nostalgia's a bitch I guess, and influences the above significantly.

>on vanilla we had few racials npcs to care about
I can't be the only one who preferred it this way, right? Back when the focus was on exploration, not cape comic power wank?

Honestly, Tirion as he was in vanilla and the original short story (written by Metzen himself, incidentally) was a completely different character to what we got in Wrath. He used to be humble (which is a paladin virtue I think a lot of people "conveniently" forget in order to RP as Warhammer characters), a paladin who stuck to what is right even when it cost him everything and made him an outlaw.... and then suddenly he turned into High Superlord Awesomedude Holycock, supreme leader of the Argent Dawn and so important the Lich King set up the entire DK starting area just to get to him and the xmas decorations he used for armour.

Oh, and the Ashbringer stopped being interesting once it got redeemed, too. All that tragedy and pathos, the creepy whispering and the implications... and now it's just a shiny stick for poking at baddies.

skovald/gondola memes always make my dickle chickle

Evolved elves > evolved trolls > trolls > elementals > explosive midget trolls > old gods > alien invaders > minions of alien invaders> fleshy, weaker, less competent minions of weaker, less competent alien invaders

>evolved Elves
Who?

>all this about alien invaders
So which one is Legion and which one is Titans?

>evolved elves

You joking mon?
Elves be degenerate freaks, dey don't even got tusks.

>"evolved" elves that high
>forgetting the Wild master races
>putting the mogu that low or not at all
Something's not quite right...

If I'm reading it right they are present there at the bottom along with Humans, Dwarves, Vrykul, Gnomes, and Tol'vir.

An illusion! What are they hiding?

Fucking elf lovers. Mogu master race belongs at the top

So, has Jaina been made into a raid boss yet?

I would like to know this, too, as well as if Vol'jin is magically back or not. Haven't played since 7.1.5

>haven't played since a patch that comes out next month
huh

if Jaina ends up as a raid boss, it'll probably in a small outside tier raid like ToV

Greymon?

Oh, huh. I guess since it was announced, then. I thought it had already gone up several weeks ago.

no, it goes up some time in January or February, ie. Directly in the middle of most people's Nighthold progression, because "you guys thought WoD didn't have enough patches? Enjoy major balance patches right after raids open"

You know I was wondering hanging plot hooks about Queen Azshara. Does she still want Sargeras to be her consort?

Will she be the last boss for her raid? Probably, with N'zoth as a bonus boss like Blizz did with Lei Shen and Ra-den

What about Prince Farondis and his subjects? What will the NEs do with them. I didn't see Tyrande even trying to break their curse.

>Does she still want Sargeras to be her consort?
she gave up on Sargeras after Zin-Azshari blew up. She's /n'zoth'sgirl/ now

Azshara probably still pines for that Titan dick, but I think she acknowledges that ship has sailed. Or maybe she'll give it another shot, now that the Legion is invading Azeroth en masse.

So who is the best bet for the final boss? Archimonde out of nowhere in WoD was really random.

For Legion? Probably Kil'jaeden 2: This Time I'm Not Just Half a Body Edition.

Kil'jaeden is the boss of Tomb of Sargeras.

Only real possibility is Sargeras himself

It's coming out between now and Ahn'qiraj remembrance day

Didn't they say it would be someone "unexpected"? I really can't think of anyone else it could be other than something to do with Sargeras or maybe we'll get a mindfuck ending and fight N'zoth.

Killy Jay is the last boss of 7.2. After that we jump through his portal to Argus

We killed Gul'Dan for the second time, already. We wouldn't expect him to show up a third time!

He's already so felled-up that he's likely been elevated to semi-demonhood, already, so he's probably been speed-rezzed in the Nether or something.

Another option is something we've been suspecting for a while now, but the majority of players probably never thought about because reasons - Xe'ra, proving that THE LIGHT is just as much an asshole magical power like all the others.

In a twist of events, it is revealed that the Void Lords have actually been sealed away to the unreality by the supreme Naaru Light Exarch Vindicator Lord, who sought to control all of the multiverses and bring ultimate stability and order at the dawn of creation. The Void Lords opposed him and wished to maintain balance between chaos and order, but were ultimately defeated. With the last of their power in realspace, they collectively attacked the Naaru Light Exarch Vindicator Lord and shattered his crystalline form into many separate entities who were dispersed among the stars. the Voidlords attempt to invade realspace, again, in order to prevent the Naaru from re-forming into SNLEVL, which was misunderstood by Sargeras as an attempt to corrupt nascent titants in order to consume reality. Xe'Ra is the Headmaster of all Naaru and attempts to secure the nascent Titan within Azeroth in order to make sure that it won't ever be controlled by the Voidlords, and the players must face the Naaru and the Army of Light in order to save the universe from TOTAL MULTIVERSAL DICTATORSHIP!

I'd say the final bosses in decreasing order of likelyhood
>Sargeras
>double corrupted Illidan
>Azshara
>N'zoth or some sort of Old God shenanigans
>Xe'ra turns out to be a bad guy
>Jaina

They don't have the balls to make Illidan the final boss again. Especially not with how he's portrayed now that the Illidari are a thing.

>the final boss is the Naaru Light Exarch Vindicator Lord reforged
>WHY DO YOU FIGHT ME MY CHILDREN, I AM YOUR MOTHER, Elune .

>immediately mind-controls everyone who uses the Light or Nature magic
>bullets, axes, fists, and Arcane do nothing
>Elements aren't very effective
>only edgelords (Fel/Shadow/Runic Power) can deal any real damage

Truly the darkest timeline.

Please, no. Bad enough that they watered down everything the Light is, don't piss in the wound by turning it into some stupid Order nonsense. That's not what it's ever been about.

Also
>implying Xe'ra isn't Kil'jaeden

But isn't Arcane the Order energy?

And so I'm not the only one who sees the Light having fucked up lore

We get it, neckbeards don't want to be reminded of God, so now it's like the force?

Damn I'm confused on what the Light is any more

But it does rely on having faith in your cause and belief that it exists so there's that I guess?

The Light's been pretty much like the Force for as long as it's been around. In WC1 the Light didn't really exist, and clerics worked like they do in DnD, gaining spells from a non-specific god. After the Light was introduced it's pretty much always been described as a mix between the Force and zen Buddhism that just happens to wear trappings of medieval Christianity.

They've changed that too

See enough r/atheism complaints have changed it to willpower alone really

Now faith is a substitute yes and it's hard to be a Light wielded without religious reverence but many fedorons have argued that too

Now you might be thinking I'm exaggerating how atheists have reacted to this, just look at current lore to see how true it is

Blizz latest development is retconning a bunch of afterlife stuff and making it into a nihilists wet dream, look up the shadowlands

Honestly I thought they added afterlives in Legion.

We see the Halls of Valor, we see Helheim, we see the Shadowlands, and now we know Druids go to the Dream when they die, which is more than we knew before.

Arthas actually is in a special place in Hell (well, Super-Hell), and Sylvanas is headed there too.

Where Paladins go was never really touched on, if I recall.

I think it has less to do with atheism and more to do with edgelords who want to do the CLEAVE AND SMITE thing without actually having any restrictions. I mean hell, how often do we hear stories about people trying to get away with murderhoboing as paladins in D&D/PF?

Tirion was a humble guy in vanila but he realized that someone had to take command and get shit done with the light or else people will slowly succumb to the power of the scourge and nobody else in power positions were giving a fuck. He decided that he had to get shit done by using "better marketing" than being a quiet and humble guy or else shit will slowly but inevitably go down.

>still no proper Dark Iron presence in Ironforge with NPCs

>explosive midget trolls
Goblins are not related to Trolls.

It use to be from my understanding:
>WC1
Non-existent, Clerics are your average god deity worshippers while orc acolytes are evil god worshippers.
>WC2
Powerful good spellcasting shenanigans
>WC3
Holy energies from non-specified source
>Post tFT transition into WoW
Explained as the three virtues, giving the whole thing a non-theistic philosophical spin, however it was never specified that there WEREN'T gods initially. It was breddy cool as a take on The Force the way it was in the original Star Wars trilogy, although it took some weird forms when fans took from it that Deathknights must be Sith to Paladin-Jedi (Lookin' at you, Tales from the Past).
>BC
The Light is a cosmic force and has its own plane like the elemental planes and the twisting nether. Also the Warcraft equivalent of midichlorians happened, but with Lawful Good starfaring windchimes. Now these windchimes had within them the capacity to become chaotic evil when they reached a certain point in their lifecycle, which was still kinda cool, but really not worth the retcon
>Chronicles
The Light is one of two forces that created the universe, but totally the better one than the other so if you're not a Light worshipper you're a fucking filthy heretic who will be assimilated as the lowliest of the low in the new hierarchy. We're stuck fighting their stupid war against the Shadow for them because for some reason the Naaru need an Army of Light made up of mortals and other assorted real-spacers.

Shhh, user, I'm in the Metzone right now. i don't need you killing my thunder with logic.

Shame, it would have redeemed worst race a little.

Worgen still succ so hard.

Goblins are mutated pygmies. The mutagen in question is radioactive kaja-mite.
The one who tested effects of kaja-mite on pygmies was Mimiron.
Then the proto-goblins were used by Trolls as slaves mining kaja-mite in area of Kezan, which furthered the increase of their intelligence.

>Now these windchimes had within them the capacity to become chaotic evil when they reached a certain point in their lifecycle, which was still kinda cool, but really not worth the retcon
It's connected with how how universe started.
>At first, there was only Light
>Whenever energy of Light depleted, Void came to be
>Void and Light started to annihilate each other, like matter and anti-matter
>This caused Universe to be, including proto-matter, which created planets and stars, while Light and Void got separated from it and each other
>Leftovers of Light in the universe caused Life to be, depending on how much of Light there was, that's how powerful beings came to be, with highest amounts created Titan World-Souls that were Arcane in nature, basically Light-elementals Naaru, and other life-forms
>In astral realm of Twisting Nether, Light and Void energies seeps over, and in annihilation of each other, Fel energies come to be
>In Twisting Nether various demons come to be, and they are filled with Fel energies, ranging from Annihilan (Pit Lords) and Nathrezim (Dreadlords; also masters of Shadow Magic) to Infernals/Abyssals (constructs made from stone and Fel) and Void Hounds (the two headed ones)
Basically Dark Naaru are Naaru whose Light power is mostly depleted, but when they are completely out, they turn to Void Gods, mimicking how Void came to be where Light burned out.

>share almost identical facial features sans tusks and weird skin colour
>strongly connected in lore since their inception
>not related, they mutated from this literal who race we pulled out of our ass in cata
Sometimes blizz adds to much convolution to their racial genealogies.

They could make pygmies more similar to Trolls and Goblins, would make more sense. No amounts of kaja-mite would excuse that amount of mutation.

Then again, if Arcane energies could devolve Trolls into Elves, then maybe kaja-mite could evolve pygmies to superior shape?

I have trouble believing Xe'Ra is evil because this is Blizzard, who are as subtle as a brick thrown in your face. They also love redeeming mass murderers like Illidan, Grom, or Phoenix Kerrigan (Starcraft but w/e it's still retarded).

>Grom
>redeemed
Even Illidan and Phoenix Kerrigan wasn't as bullcrap as ending of WoD and Grom acting as if he were on their side all along.

>LEL LIGHT ORDER AND GOODNESS ARE JUST ANOTHER KIND OF EVIL AND ANGELS ARE LIKE NAZIS AND THE DARK CREATURES ARE JUST FIGHTING BACK AGAINST THE OPPRESSION OF MY PAREN- I MEAN CHURC- I MEAN THE LIGHT

Never seen this kind of subversion before! This shit was just as annoying when I was fourteen as it is now.

I know you're being sarcastic but you must realize this is where the lore is headed.

Yogg-Saron told us himself, hope is an illusion.

Sneer all you want, you know it deep in your heart that some asshat author at Blizzard's is going to go down this road.

Don't forget, at some point, Blizzard started to hire machinimanists, and I presume all of us are familiar with Tales of the Past and how that menagerie of animefueled fanfiction turned out. It was amazing in its cheesiness, btw.

And don't deny that TotP isn't at least generally representative of what the majority of Warcraft fanfiction was.

Thinking about it, it boils down to this: On top of Chris' utter ADHD to his own works and Kosak's utter disregard for anything decent in Warcraft, we got teenagers who were just fondling their own creative genitals in puberty induced self-righteousness who suddenly got paid to do the same thing and just busting one deadbeat narrative nut after the other. And those authors probably haven't matured whatsoever.

The WoW magazine mentioned the Goblins and Pygmies sharing a common unknown ancestor, while Warcraft Chronicle says Goblins were somewhat a mistake on the part of Mimiron while working with the Earthen, Mechagnomes, and Troggs.

I imagine the Goblins & Pygmies are involved with the Troggs, Drogbar, and by extension the Kobolds. Pygmies share a vague resemblance to Gnomes and even Dwarves, Troggs are related to Earthen as a side experiment (which itself is a retcon of what we learned as Uldaman) and the Drogbar feel like Troggs on steroids though are far more intelligent and sociable.

At the very least they're not mutant Trolls and are a Titan-spawned race.

so we are going on the Golden Compass style?
Great....

Tales of the Past 2 was a decent adventure story.

3 got really heavy-handed in the preachiness about the 'MUH HORDE AREN'T EVIL'. The use of God too was retarded.

Though speaking of god in WoW...

Drogbar are literally Rock Trolls.

I can't say if I'm even relieved that others see the way I do now.

The Light is on a path to becoming 'waah restriction of freedom', when it's literally the stuff of creation.