I seriously think I need to punish my players in game

Who instigated the plot? Did his minion see that?

Target the player that did. Then have him raised to life and have him aid the necromancer as his minion in the final fight if the plan to murder and steal the body of their comrade was successful.

If it fails, go with what the other user suggested. Have it become more personal. He goes after their more defenseless loved ones.
Give the players hints as to what has transpired.

One of the players goes back to town.
>Oh your uncle Fred showed up and was asking what your sister was up to. Said he had some urgent news for her.
>Player "I don't have an Uncle Fred."
>ohfuck.png
Player arrives to find his sisters house empty save for some calling card so they know who was there etc.

>Now I have to come up with proper rage-fueled revenge plans that only a high level wizard with an army and a few centuries of experience can imagine.

That sounds like a good time. Definitely make a handful of contingency plans when the Necromancers ambushes/attacks/etc. the party. Make those centuries of plotting count.

But here's a question OP: Would the Necromancer want to recover his wife's body? Could the PC's hold her corpse hostage, saying they'll mutilate it if he doesn't back down?

This reminds me of the main villain from Netflix Daredevil.

Kingpin was very much a chessmaster villain and never interfered with anything personally. But when the protagonists find someone dear to her and finally get some dirt on him, Kingpin goes all in. He invades one character's home and strangles him personally. Would the Necromancer do something like that, maybe invade when they're sleeping soundly at an inn? Granted it's risky, for both parties involved, but it could end your campaign abruptly if the Necromancer dies. Also the few times I've pulled the whole "antagonist vanishes in a cloud of smoke" deal to get out of combat, my players never liked that, so be warned.

I think one way to handle the vanishing in a cloud of smoke is by giving players a satisfying combat.
Instead of it being a cloud of smoke, make it a cloud of skeletons or something they can get their rage out on.

Have the necromancer freeze time and slowly and sexily rape all of their mouths describing it all in vivid, lusty detail then he unfreezes time and they have their boss fight.

i think it'd make sense for your villan to start playing hardball.

maybe he has knowledge of some fel entity that he knows he shouldn't make deals or pacts with, but now he doesn't have anything to lose.

or maybe the necromancer can make them pariahs, drop propaganda on the locals and convince everyone not to feed/house you or sell you anything.

or maybe the necromancer can call in a favor from a deity or local lord to try to wipe you off the face of the earth, or at least make sure you're cursed, toothless and homeless for the rest of your days.

The situation you're describing sounds less like "punishing players" and more like "natural consequences of their IC choice," so I wouldn't frame it in those terms.

Are the PCs independent operators or are they working directly under the empire the necromancer is fighting?

Never think of it as "punishing players".
It's real important everyone involved recognizes it's just choice and consequences.

I like this Have the Necromancer go postal and ruin everything the PCs have ever worked for. He'll research each of their backstories and pasts and fuck up as much of it as he can. Spare no expense, call up every favor needed to dig up dirt and set said dirt on fire. Get them all riled up and ready for revenge.

And when the Necromancer's ready, invite them to his lair, full of as much shit he can possible fit together. Force them to make sacrifices, throw in everything they've got. And when they're finally face to face with him, angry and ready to beat the shit out of him, have him kill himself. When they go to his chambers, make sure they're spartan and unfurnished. Make it clear that he drove himself into destitution to get this revenge. Leave no loot for them as a reward. Blue ball them and show them what a powerful man driven to vengeance can do.

You should have it work.

That's it.

Have it work really, really, REALLY well. Way better than they thought it would.

Because, whoops, he just blew all of his final boss trumpcards and diverted his army to surround them. There is a fucking dracolich keeping them from flying away. He called in all the favors his very-extended lifespan has afforded him with all the assassin and thief guilds across the nation.

Now EVERY rest has an assassin trying to kill them. They wake up to find critical bits of equipment stolen (this will be huge). The undead army covers the land shoulder-to-shoulder for miles, no running. They are constantly tormented by the summoned souls of their parents and grandparents, begging for death and mercy that the necromancer will not deliver.

Basically, yeah, that shit worked. You got what you wanted. But be careful what you wish for.

The Trips have it.

Give them what they want.

Do not apologize when it bites them in their asses.

OP Here. I'm definitely going to take a lot of the stuff said in this thread into consideration. This actually works IC as them eventually paying for their hubris.

They rarely try to go for subtlety or covert operations. Stealth is a minor concern. But any time in the past they have tried (and failed) they can just brute force their way through the consequences.

I think, ultimately, this action has fundamentally changed the game. I might even make the 'ancient evils' take more action as the necromancer ceases his war to find the punks that took his wife's body. Definitely going to be pulling a LOT of personal backstory and ramping it up to 10

fuck that, ramp it up to 11.
This is is wife, dude.

This, you don't fuck with a man's family, that's just wrong.

next time they rest at an inn, have them, wake up to the entire inn slaughtered and have the bodies posed so that at first it just looks like everyone is hanging in the tavern as normal. Have a note requesting the players give her back, as a final "polite" warning

>DM: "The necromancer has tortured your family to death!"
>Player: that's gay lol

Probably not going to be as dramatic as you're hoping for.

Not if you just say it like that. Set up a lot of red flags. Armies moving away from the front line, and in the general direction of PC homes. Letters of worrying omens. Or if there is communication, the letters from their families and allies just cease.

Let them know that the motivation has changed completely and that he will do the most painful, bloodiest path to achieve his ends.

For being the prince of darkness you're not very bright.

Players usually don't care about their in-game families in any meaningful way. If you really want to make them mad, wreck their gear.

>The guy loves and cared for his wife and chose to let her rest rather than artificially extend her life. The players KNOW how much the necromancer loved her to the point of obsession after her death.
So he's going to waste efforts on rescuing her corpse during the final battle? Why do you want to punish your players?

I'm confused as to why you want to punish them for this.

just have the necro drop everything and go after the PC's. if they've planed for that and manage to set up a good enough trap for him, the good guys win. if they didn't, characters die and the game goes on.

pure and simple.

Because they didn't bother to cover it up and did it for a huge leap of logic.

Their thought process, no joke, was that he would be shocked and would become their bitch if they had this trump card. At the very least, they thought they might get a surprise round for it.

And while I appreciate attempt at unique planning, I've laid many hints that the guy goes unhinged where his wife's well being is concerned. He destroyed an entire (somewhat tyrannical) holy order just because they called his wife a harlot in front of a town. It was a net positive for the town in the long run, but he doesn't deny it was a pretty evil thing and the wife didn't appreciate it.

I guess it's not punishing the players so much as appropriate responses to poking a sleeping giant that they severely underestimate for no good reason that I'm looking for.

>I seriously think I need to punish my players in game.
Red fucking flag.

Actions have consequences, but if you feel you need to PUNISH them, well, you're just That GM.

If you read further, you understand that it's more of a "they did a big oopsie and need to feel the consequences" type of deal.

No, I read it. But the fact he opened with "I need to punish them" is a massive fucking red-flag.

It isn't punishment, and the fact that he thought that way for even a second is worrying.

No, that was totally my bad. I've been on Veeky Forums long enough to know that makes me sound like a massive asshole. I still think there needs to be major consequences, but for the characters rather than the players.

So far this seems like the best option

Alright, fair enough. But yeah, terming it as punishment tends to raise a massive flare for me. You mostly seem to know what you're doing, but terming it that way...

>They wake up to find critical bits of equipment stolen (this will be huge).
Roll it out, though. Give them the chance to prevent it. If they fail the roll, so be it, but don't just fiat it away.

He should imprison them in the Rape Dimension for all time

Have him keep to the shadows for now, revenge is a dish best served cold.

First, the necromancer makes this known to the public and now they have a couple thousand paladins after them.
Next, have the necromancer make some deals, monsters, devils, whoever, just get him some more allies.
Finally, have him go fucking wild and incorporate everything into his undead army. Humans? Dragons? Monsters? another BBEG? God? all fighting for him now.

Then, have him go fuck up your party.

Make him bite back, let him take something that the players hold dear and hold it as a hostage, moreover as people have said, make him go all out on the party.

Going for the characters families might not get much of a reaction. Instead go for the supply and social networks they use to keep operating as adventurers. Where do the characters like to hang out? A favourite town, pub, their own keep, etc? Where do they get their supplies; food, armour, weapons, potions, training? Where do they spend their money, market, etc? Have the necromancer destroy them all, burned earth style. Be like the russians vs napoleon - leave nothing for them to use in the immediate area. Make sure everyone in the world knows that if they give or sell anything to the characters, that person and their family ends up in the undead horde. Make the players a bunch of starving rag wearing piarahs.

That sounds very anti-climactic and like a reward. Like, "your plan was so fucking good that you instakill the boss, no fight required."

I don't see the problem. They took a thing he finds important (important enough to act brashly) and are using its importance against him, probably because they want to tick him off so that he acts without thinking and makes a mistake. Seriously, what's the issue?

so this high level necromancer did place any wards on his wifes tomb/remains to deter graverobbers? i mean it sounds like this is a man who will do anything in his power to protect the things he cares about to the point of going rogue against other evils. he couldve made pacts with high demons that they would be summoned to defend her remains for x amount of souls or whatever bullshit demons want, he could have places handfuls of curses on her casket so when its broken into it just plagues the graverobbers and alarms him to the location when the plagues are finished for recovery.

i would go full "return the slab" on them tbph

youtube.com/watch?v=9pWC-4dx3Q0

>going 'return the slab' on them
That would be pretty swell

Mainly it's the indignation that bothers me. I've told them and even shown one major example with the holy order how the guy has had a history of going completely balls to the wall over the one option they chose to use to fuck with him.

But what they've seen when they met him was a reserved guy who I always described as 'uncomfortably self controlled' and 'always conscious of himself' when the Bard tried to read his body language. I tried to get across his struggles as trying to do a 'good' thing and not go back to cackling while torturing the high priests. They think he is a wimp despite the evidence and interactions. Despite ruling the army, despite smiting several paladin's, despite even subduing and subjugating a dracolich.

The characters don't usually take things seriously. They think of themselves as the best at everything and, up to now They have been. Squeaking by on murder hoboing, a bard with high persuasion, and luck. Blissfully unaware of how close they have come to TPKs and horrible consequences.

>"We're the heroes, user! We'll always come out on top"

But we have a very long session tonight, and they have finally pissed off someone who, just using powers I have already established, will be able to wreak down havoc on their lives. Because even at his most revenge crazy he is still a centuries old necromancer and is a master at playing long, painful games.

i am really surprised you managed to keep your cool when GM to a bunch of asshats who are playing this like a video game.

Go full balls on the all on them and have no mercy

Another tip that i was going to say is making their adventurers have nightmares involving the Necromancer, i would also say that when they stop to sleep in a Inn you should kill the entire town and later make then wake up under his orders to ask "Give my wife, this is your first and last warning"

How dare they feel good about themselves? You're right, you seriously need to man the fuck up and punish them. That ought to remind them who's in charge of this game.

Yeah, with that he's swung right back into Red Flag DMing for me, personally. The rest, sure, I could agree with, but that...

Honestly, it seems more then anything, the group as a whole need to have a talk about the type of game they both want. This is going to end badly.

Don't have punishments. Have consequences that follow through from what happens. No, they're not the same thing. They'll learn from consequences if they'll learn from anything, and punishment will just rightfully piss them off.

Only one guy is really a massive asshole. The Illusionist and the Bard? Two of the most creative, most fun people I've met. They have both been pretty much the sole reason the party didn't die many times. And they are the two that know to be quiet and try to occasionally talk some things out. But they also occasionally just lean back and let the other two take control at the worst time to 'see what happens'

But the entire party, especially the Ranger, have fallen victim to hubris. And after trouncing the two cloud giants, a demon, and overcoming some traps and 'puzzles' in the Necromancer's abandoned castle, they have put themselves in a position to be defeated by it. Hell, the one guy just chucked the body in a large magic barrel and shoved it into a bag of holding.
>"It's supposed to be funny, user." The Ranger says to a me while tossing the body into his bag.
>I've been secretly rolling and look concerned
>The goblin gets a crit on stealth and I realize what has to logically happen but completely unprepared for it

How am I supposed to tell them how to play their characters? The players (well, 3/4) love the game and on a player level, take it somewhat seriously. But on a character level, when actually roleplaying and constructing their character's story, this is how they have played their characters. It was a bubble of their characters arrogance and I am just a little stupefied by how it has come to this.

I'm bothered by the character's actions, but not as much at the players for playing them, if that makes sense? I fucked up by framing the thread as 'getting back at the players'. I wrote that little part after a long day at work and it was a mistake.

That's the idea. My bad for making it 'punishments'. Nice digits by the way

Yeah, trips have it.

OP, this is a great opportunity to make the necromancer to actually shift from LN to LE. If you do, make it clear that it's the party that drove him over the edge.

Some good ideas here.

This is a good idea.

Another important thing to note is that it sounds like your players have a lot of murderhobo in them, so don't expect them to care too much about their in-game family. See .

Use your best judgment.

They had a good plan, and you want to punish them? Imagine how the necromancer feels, maybe he gets erratic? Maybe he starts leaving holes in his plans, because he wants his wife's body back ASAP?

Just don't punish them, not for clever planning. Maybe make the game a bit harder for them, like stronger minions being thrown at the players, but at the same time, scale down the war thing, because necromancer is using his resources and attention to get revenge on players.

Players clearly wanted to bring his attention onto themselves. Give them just that. They are risking their lives for a greater cause after all.

OP, why does it matter what you're PCs did?
If this is 3.5, they can't forcibly raise the necromancer's wife without her permission--they are monumentally disrespectful, but desecrating her body is not the same as them being able to bring her back and torture her for years on end, you know?
So I would think that the necromancer would want to play hardball but leave the door open for negotiations. Send a message of "you have my full attention, I can seriously hurt you, I am willing to negotiate in good faith." After he recovers his wife or if rebuffed, _then_ I would think he starts escalating. But it seems to me like a measured, controlled rage would make sense and that he would reign in his anger until after he knows his wife's body is either safe or unrecoverable

You know, magical messages to rivals to undermine the players, hiring assassins/thugs/etc to harass the PCs/their friends/their families, sending an underling to facilitate collecting odds and ends (urchins being for scraps) in order to have a constant stream of materials so that he can scry 24/7, porting in while they're exhausted and recovering and summoning lots of monsters

Aside from beein edgy as fuck... and not working most of the time...
i think its not the style of this necromancer. sinc he isnt evil, why make innocent people suffer for your own revenge when the PCs are at fault?

The best option for OP is really to go full balls to the wall on them and make the Necromancer consider them priority

Give them good old «Things get worse and worse» ride; If the situation is bad — make it worse.

For example your party is in some kind of tower. Make a huge dracolich appear and wreck part of the roof. Then give them a cruel fight with a little bit of fudging (Giving Dragon new abilities in the middle of the fight, etc). Make your party barelly survive this battle but defeat the dracolich. Or even better — he may escape so the players will not get exp.

Then don't give them time to rest. Undead hords are attacking this tower with some bad intentions. Party will have to flee — they are barelly alive. Make a couple of cinematic moments like zombie catching a player in a grapple; Make that player loose his weapon after he escapes.

Then allow your players to escape and get into some kind of village. If they will go to an inn to take a rest — an assasin is already waiting them there. After your party will succeed at killing him and getting their deserved rest use that idea with inn zombification.

Make things worse and worse and worse. And then make a break.
Your players will rethink their previous decisions.

They might also get a lot of fun in the process, so you kill two bunnies with one shot. You are punishing your players without taking too much fun

Taking away*

Yeah that'll show them who's the boss.

Who is the boss?

Nope, fuck that shit. I'd say he should shanghai the fuck out of the party's equipment, with no saves, because surely a necromancer could summon up some supernatural beings to do the stealing rather than leaving it up to some shitty thief and risk blowing it.

My group once pissed off a thieves guild, and I did just that. The main warrior (also being the one mostly responsible for the thing) wasn't so tough the next day when all of his enchanted shit was gone.

...

What if the Necromancer killed himself when he heard the news of his wife's body, and now his vengeance returns as a spirit that haunts the players in some way. This is admittedly worse than most of what's been said, but if you still wanted to put an impact on your players as a means of their actions leading to this.

Yeah, you're a shitty DM, and I'm glad I'll never play with trash like you, faggot.

Make him do away with the 'honorable' part. Make him send things like dead mosquitos with blood from the deadliest diseases, maybe have him 'fake' bringing back their dead ones. Like, he says he killed their families, and sent them out, but they really aren't.

All taht until they return his wife, and then he reveals the diseases are curable, and he was lying.

>good plan
>clever
I'm very hard pressed to think of a time where digging up the corpse of someone dear to a mega necromancer could ever be described like this.

I feel people have misconstrued what OP meant by punishment. He himself has described it as 'consequences'. Actions have consequences and this should be no different considering they were all playing hot potato with the idiot ball.

>Why does it matter
It matters to the (unstable) necromancer who is VERY attached to his wife as they were well aware. I doubt even a regular guy would shrug off the desecration of his wife's grave, much less a necromancer.