How do we fix Chaos Space Marines?

With a Traitor Legions supplement.

Yeah they need to give them more and BETTER options. They don't need grav or drop pods, but they sure should get a daemonic equivalent.

Also, they should also have drawbacks. The access to flying DPs and GEQ/zombies is amazing. What's not amazing is how the codex is so shitty that these things don't even matter.

Also it's teh oldest fucking codex stop making supplements of a 6E codex and fucking update it. Please, silence all the fucking CSM crybabby tears. Although I bet even if they were Eldar tier they'd sitll cry about something.

Make them less about being degenerate Space Marines and more about being the guys who had the courage to stare into the abyss. End their pointless obsession with overthrowing the Imperium and focus on pursuing their own agendas.

Chaos marines shouldn't just be edge-lords who betrayed humanity because "lol so evul!" Rather, they should be the bearers of a dark enlightenment who left humanity behind so they could become something more than human.

>Also more fallen heroes who have the chance of being redeemable.
the whole point of chaos is that they aren't redeemable and fucking know it

Tell that to the Dark Angels

Daemonhood is the goal of plenty CSM. And generally once achieving it they never give a shit about the Imperium as all daemons have read Master of Mankind and know they already won.

Sadly, Failbaddon seems to be the face of CSM now.

He was always the face.

>Horus was weak
>Let the galaxy slip away... blah

How old is that quote? But No one cares about abaddon. They can force it all they want.

God damn that pic. GW on occasion puts out some great fluff.

cannot fix that witch is perfect!!
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GODS!!!!!!

In TT: show Nurgle and Slaanesh followers more love. Khorne Daemonkin and Wrath of Magnus works for their respective forces.

In lore: ramp up their aspect of being the betrayed, and playthings of the gods whom they hate as much as the Imperium.

It'll be interesting to see the daemon Primarchs, particularly those with Patron gods, return. We can expect at least some new DG, WE and EC models.

While I usually do like villain redemption stories, 40k is not the place for them.

I personally like that they outright confirmed Lorgar as being a Daemon Prince of Chaos Undivided, meaning that Perturabo (who is stated to also be a Daemon Prince) can still be as well.

Chaos literally makes humans into edgelords.

that dread is HUUUUGE man...
Fuck GW. TRUE SCALE MARINES WHEN ?

>Make them less about being degenerate
>shouldn't just be edge-lords who betrayed humanity because "lol so evul!"
That's the whole point of Chaos. It can tease you with sophisticated candy but you'll end up with edgelord flavor in the end.

For god's sake, simplify their rules and give them rules that work. Champion of Chaos, the Boon table, and at least 50% of their book being choices that aren't just unoptimal but unviable is simply unacceptable for a product they continue to support. Traitor Legions took a step in the right direction by diversifying the Legions, but took one step back by piling more rules and formations onto an unstable foundation. Keep the new models, fluff, and design ethos, but raze the rules to the ground.

>Champion of Chaos, the Boon table,

Are 100% fluffy rules that completely match with what a Chaos Marine acts like in the fluff.

Chaos Marines can't turn down a challenge, because doing so makes them look weak, and Chaos Marines are 100% Might Makes Right. You don't constantly prove that you're hot shit, and somebody else is going to stab you in the back or challenge you for right to lead.

Chaos Boons makes perfect sense as well, as Chaos rewards its followers in the most random of ways.

While I personally believe that Boons that affect stats should stack, I otherwise feel like they're largely okay concepts that add a flavor to the army to further differentiate them from Loyalist.

Crunch-wise, CSM are pretty much fine. Some of their units/gear need to be removed (Warp Talons) or fine-tuned (Defilers) but they're probably at the level the rest of the game should be at.

Lore-wise they're too much like evil space marines. GW really needs to play up the fact that these are the ancient enemies of mankind who have each lived longer and crueler lives then just about anyone else they're fighting. Have them run their fingers through rivers of blood because that's who they are. Some of them enjoy it and others just accept the reality that they live in a grimdark setting. There should also be a lot less of them and they should be way more reliant on cults.

Less demons and flesh, more cult.

Two of those cults are all about daemons and flesh.

This has always been my favourite quote from 40k and I'm glad it was reprinted in the Traitor Legions book as its how I want the CSM to be depicted.

To be counted among the Veterans of the Long War should means to be one of the greatest warriors the galaxy has ever seen. Mortals who have ascended to heights unimaginable by the lowly upstarts of the 40th Millennium. They may seem mad from an outside perspective but that is simply because the knowledge and strength of the individuals themselves is impossible to fathom. To truly understand their purpose means to fall under their sway and that of the dark gods they serve, leaving those hunting them walking the line between ignorance and destruction.

Most often my problem with them is they are depicted as having no purpose other then their gods drive. Their worship should come in their own personal way rather then simply slipping in to the wardrobe of which ever god they serve. Beserkers are great and fun and fluffy. But where are the stories of the man leading them, seeking out the perfect worlds to bleed dry. The one who harvests the destruction around him and uses its power to destroy those who stand in the way of his perfect victory on the battlefield.

So how would you depict this? I feel that they should be as small in number as the Grey Knights when on the battlefield. Small elite units that to even come across normally means death, either at their hands, or at the hands of you allies when they come to hide what has happened. When an army of 50,000 berserkers is depicted it means nothing when a hundreds die. When really the death of one beserker should be the loss of a warrior who has constantly been in battle for 10,000 years, one of the last and greatest warriors of the Emperors Great Crusade. A man who had stood by a Primarchs side in battle and survived. Empires have survived less time then he has and that should be feared by all who come across him.

But thats just my opinion.

They are too tryhard. If they want to look good, they have to chose, for example, between horns or scary faces, not both.

at least do the full pic

I agree with this. Fluff-wise, chaos can still seem edgy, but there definitely needs to be a strong layer of sophistication to it.

In my opinion, the HH books come the closest to this. The First Heretic comes to mind, with the Pilgrimage of Lorgar and his belief that faith and the worship of the divine are essential to the human experience.

File off the spikes, paint them blue and find-replace "Chaos Space" with "Ultra"

I told you the new guy was a loyalist!

get the fuck outta here Titus

As a Thousand Sons player, I am completely ok with the status of Chaos right now. The TL supplement is beautiful and there is nothing wrong with it.

...

>the Ultramarines absolutelywhoop the Word Bearers despite everything

This comic kinda sucks. It's as if flies and mice rip apart their respective traps.

Remove both Dark Apotheosis and Spawnhood, FORCE ACCEPT their challenges (although still no called targets), and remove the unworthy offerings. Buff high end rolls, keep the already weak rolls on the low end.

There you go, CSM buffed.

>was front and centre on the cover of the first Chaos codex
>now

>>the Ultramarines absolutelywhoop the Word Bearers despite everything
This is what Ultrafags actually believe lmao

Who said anything about buffs? You want fluffy gifts from Chaos gods, here you go. Most of the time it's a mixed blessing and often it's a curse or useless gift you can't reject.

>Now
>Now

Abaddon was on the cover of the first CSM codex, IIRC., you cunt.

This basically confirms that Veeky Forums is infested with newfag hipsters.

No shit, how long have you been hearing faglords crying about how marines should be rolled into a single codex when the very first codexes to ever come out was Angels of Death, Space Wolves, and Ultramarines, before CSM even existed.

With the new traitor legions dex i think it give a nice boost to at least make them fun and fluffy to play without them being auto-win (but i do play death guard so maybe a bit).

However, got a question, i can take plague marines as troops, in the Chaos warband formation it says 2+ squads of chaos marines, does this mean i can use plague marines instead? assuming not, but hoping yes.

>Sob

Funny thing is, they'll get new plastic models before standard CSM.

Their digital codex is newer too.

same

can anyone explain to me why they are so spiky all the time? i mean i got it, warp and shit if you get angry suddenly you become metal as fuck or something and all but is there some more rational way of making them 'chaosy' without the 80' or 90' 'metal' trope?

Shus user, we don't talk about that.
I' m really hoping SoB get the TL treatment, i.e the Imperial Agents codex is just like the CSM codex, of little use, and we'll get something like "Adepts Sorority Orders" for the plastic release, with new fluff and crunch for the main orders. I mean shit, most of the SoB fluff is from the 2nd ed.

Jes Goodwin did it to make sure loyalists had a distinctly separate silhouette than CSM. Every iconic faction unit has its own silhouette.

Ork Boy, loyal SM, spiky CSM, Eldar Guardian, Sister of Battle, Imperial Guardsman, they all look different and are easy to tell apart even if it's just a black silhouette.

Spikes are cool.

Not arguing with that, just giving the idea to post 'spikes' more tactically to become more operator

I know the story well, thats why i asked the question. Look on how Tyranids and Eldar, even Orks evolved (somtimes for better, sometimes for worse) with time and new design tropes and idas. Chaos Marines in general didn't changed that much. They still stuck in 90' heavy metal phase. I seen many custom models portrying Chaos Marines in nice 'chaosy' way.

For exapmple imagine a conversion of HH and SM models, or just an design idea. Shitty rusted weapons, patches of old paint still showing up. Dudes looking beaten but powerful as fuck. Like someone who literary fought his way through hell, fighting constantly for thousands years.

I might ask to much tho, just throwing ideas.

Make them into little girls

That's because CSM didn't get a plastic update yet and are still using their original plastics.

>stating the obvious
Thanks capitan obvious.

by the way with the state of GW now do you really thing they will be any good if they ever come out? TS models are solid but they didn't really change that much imho

Why would you ask why something hasn't evolved when it literally hasn't even gotten an update so it can change?

I dunno mate. Personally I like their 90s heavy metal look. It's what drew me and probably the majority of everyone else to them. I don't see a reason to change it.

this, would sell like hot buns
all races conversion into little cute animu grills
dib on your waifu now

>squishy moist jeanstealer for me

You are dense or something capitan obvious?

Didn't fucking ask why 'something hasn't evolved' i fucking stated it. Work on your reading comprehension brother.

I know why they didn't change and why they look like this but this whole thread is about how to improve them. So im saying, out with the 90' look.

Yeah and this is probably the biggest argument for actually not changing it and i understand it.

But still if you could design them in a new and freash way how would you do that? Theoretically. This thread is for that.

I agree, but space marines are fundamentally broken people. They are psycopathically violent by human standards even in the loyalist legions. Its not beyond the pale to say that they would enjoy massive violence and slaughter just for the lulz. Higher purpose comes after the bloodshed and laughing at giant explosions

>why

Night Lords

They did it before it was cool and split when Curze died to go hang out with the others legions.

>that pic
Thanks to Ahriman's achievements, the thousand sons will not rot, and the marines will never forget the glories and knowledge of the past! Be amazed by his wisdom.

Perturabo would have to be statted even better than he is in HH, and as he is a total rapemachine there I cannot imagine how broken he would be as a daemon primarch.

considering all his gear would propably not work anymore i wouldn't be so sure

Ah back when they had designers who gave a shit. Thats a first.

>more of Veeky Forums's pet meme Legion

No, thanks.

>hipsters

There's nothing chic about 40k, even ironically.

Have you ever seen Eldar of Imperial fashion?
It's fabulous.

>chapter master Orlando Furioso

>our lord materialized directly behind the cardinal and plunged his blade through his heart

never change GW

They're just a little bit dusty. :^)

It's to please Ans'l, Mo'rcck and Phraz-Etar, minor chaos deities who give sometimes their blessings to those who get spikey.

It's from the best Chaos Codex, when they still had an inkling of creativity, thus it's the best explanation.

> weapons free from the constraints of decorume and STCs enforced in the Imperium
A lot of traitor Techpriests and such go for that, binding machines with daemons and whatnot. Could be a cool thing in combination with some renegade Iron Hands or something.

Never go full Dark Mechanicum. Unless...

No, it has to be normal CSM with MoN and VotLW

>the best Chaos Codex
It's from that edition, but I'd be seriously surprised if you actually meant this codex. Most people are probably unaware it even existed despite it being the birthplace of Memerider.

Death Guard and Noise Marines are the best CSM subfactions. Thousand Sons (sans Magnus) are the worst.

Ahh. Point taken.

Fucked up my refs. I miss Old Warhams. To believe back with my friends we forbid named characters on the basis "they are not YOUR dudes enough".

Must be the only time someone ever deployed a vanilla Space Marine Captain.

>The TL supplement is beautiful and there is nothing wrong with it.

3/9 Legion got great rules. Sure, the core codex needs a rewrite, but these legions can at least do okay with fluffy lists.

4/9 legions got mediocre rules that help, but still leave them a bit behind the curve. Better than nothing, and they could be really nice if he core codex got a rewrite.

2/9 legions are still fucked.

Which legions would you put where? All I know is deathguard are great now

>Basic CSM
>16 points
>T5
>Relentless
>FNP
>Fearless

All for losing 1 Initiative

Rubricae pls go.

More Edge and more BLOOD.

Death Guard and Emperor's Children are great.

Alpha Legion and World Eaters are both on the cusp of glory, so I threw one up and one down. We'll see how it shakes out, but I'm skeptical that World Eaters will do well outside of absurd Spawn spam lists.

Night Lord, Iron Warriors, Black Legion are okay.

Word Bearers and Thousand Sons are both fucked. Both have an optimal strategy of "bring as many daemons as you can," and neither really provides anything that those daemons couldn't do better themselves.

...

they should get kai guns (demonic beam-weapons with a high rate of fire and exploding dice shenanigans) and ecto-plasma weapons (higher strength and ROF than a plasma weapon but salvo) just for basic space marines

the cult units would all get their own unique cult gear and heavy weapons ala the thousand sons

and they'd be able to get some real weird weapon options for their vehicles like noise marine hellbrutes or vindicators which fire torrents of boiling blood, predators packing a twin linked TS rotar cannon with two more for sponsons or even land raiders constructed for viral bombardment

cool stuff

>is there some more rational way of making them 'chaosy' without the 80' or 90' 'metal' trope?

The old mutated/daemonic/body horror/biomechanical look, like the new chosen sorta went back to, or the forgeworld possessed marines.

As a Thousand Sons/generic Tzeentch player.

Thousand Sons detachment rules:
+1 Invuln
+1 Power Cast per turn
Channeling: Roll a D6 for each Tzeentch-marked unit at beginning of psychic phase, +1 WC for each 4+

Grand Coven rules:
When shooting at target hit by Witchfire or Malediction, have Preferred Enemy.
Reroll perils and failed psychic tests.
Add Warband as a core, add "renegade servants" as a non-formation auxiliary of 1-3 CSM, 0-1 Raptors/Bikers, 0-1 Havocs, 0-1 Terminators/Chosen

War Cabal rules:
Cast on 3+
Non-psykers reroll saving throws of a 1

Misc formation crap:
Consolidate Rehati, Ahriman's Exiles, and War Coven into 1 "bunch of psykers" formation
Maybe add a "Heretek Sorcerer + Vehicles and Daemon Engines" formation

Give Tzeentch's Firestorm AP3 and Haywire, let it be cast as WC2 for Large Blast and WC3 for Large Blast Ignores Cover.

What he says
>Everything went exactly as intended.
What he thinks
>If I don't get Dark Angels levels of damage control right now, the rubrics will have to scour the scraps of my brain from the walls.

I think the Traitor Legions supplement has some good stuff and that CSM are in a better place than they've been for years. For at least a few months, I hold off on any requests for "fixes".

Yeah, that quote doesn't really fit with the more recent depictions, a la French's Ahriman series.

>can anyone explain to me why they are so spiky all the time?
>because that's their original design
>no i mean why dont they have an updated design captain obvious
>BECAUSE THEY HAVENT BEEN UPDATED YET
>NO THATS NOT WHAT I WAS ASKING

Are you fucking retarded?

Some CSM are in a better place than they been for years. There's still significant room for improvement for most Legions.

>10 man CSM squad in a rhino
>shoot autocannons + plasma guns outside the hatch

Going from SnP to relentless was the biggest buff imo