HOW TO KILL STABBYCLAUS?

True-ish, though I was thinking ABOUT Classical and early Medieval warfare with that. Longbows or crossbows could certainly still fuck a 16th- or 17th-century pike unit right up, though at that point you're getting into pike-and-shot era where guns are more prolific anyhow.

No.

The Romans didn't deal with Carthaginian Elephants at all because If the Elephants DID charge, they killed people at it was VERY hard to kill an Elephant.

You have to remember Carthage basically did what everyone did at the time, Sacked Itally.

Rome was almost impossible to conquer wholesale, but The Roman Empire were pretty dramatic pushovers on the defensive.

They did, once they figured that out. That was only used during a few battles, though, and takes a LOT of discipline and good morale for the defenders to pull off. It would be useless for a less maneuverable Greek phalanx from around that time or previous centuries to try such a thing, as their equipment would be too heavy to effectively maneuver that quickly.

No, I meant in the final battle of the second Punic war, not during the long period of Hannibal running loose through Italy.

Again, you don't "Deal" With Elephants because they cannot easily be countered, you just sort of hope you scare them off or they get bored.

Yes, Scipio did use that tactic at Zama to good effect, as well as using horns to scare the elephants.

Scipio did "deal with" them at Zama, pretty effectively. Certainly part luck, but they're not unstoppable, and most importantly can be unreliable.

The point is there, Luck. He managed to scare the Elephants.

I think armchair historians need to take a step back and understand how fucking strong an Elephant actually is. It's very strength was it's biggest weakness.

Elephants aren't actually that effective as weapons of war beyond the shock tactics. If the soldiers know what they are and keep it together, the elephants really won't make much headway.

Oh yeah, I forgot as long as you hold your ground a man can actually survive a rampaging Elephant.

Oh wait, that's sheer stupidity.

>The point is there, Luck.
There is always an element of luck in war.

Especially so with Animals Humans really only have the Illusion of control over.

>Thread devolves into "muh elephants, ivory folded 10,000 times" shitery

Man, for somebody throwing around "armchair historians" I have to say you have a pretty skewed view of how battles involving elephants typically turned out. Extensive use of elephants didn't save the Indians at Gaugamela, where the Greeks DID hold their ground, and at Zama the Carthage Ian elephants crushed their own left wing. Several other battles involving elephants involved them mostly just running off without being significantly engaged.

The only battle I can think of where elephants made a really huge difference was Trebia, and that was against CAVALRY, not infantry.

I agree that they're scary and dangerous, but they're not four-legged Death Stars. The historical record simply does not support this idea you're proposing of elephants as unstoppable Juggernauts.

Yeah, sorry about that, let's get back to polearms.

Every account you just said shows how Elephants were pretty much Unstoppable Juggernaughts. I'm not saying they are basically the best thing in Ancient warfare ever, on the contrary, they're incredibly unpredictable at best.

My point is that there was no "Real" countermeasure against Elephants other than hoping the Elephant doesn't do it's job.

Having openings in your lines or Horns to scare the Elephant are just hopeful lucky shots.

It's not specific to elephants.
Many a cavalry would use heavy hand protection for their left hand (often a shield) because of a very simple tactic: slicing off a rider' left hands, rendering the horse uncontrollable.

Do you think elephants are historical tanks or something?

You're welcome to provide examples of Elephants winning the day against an army that wasn't used to seeing them.

They're living animals, at the end of the day. They're not going to stand their ground if they meet stiff resistance, especially if they're being actively attacked.

>Having openings in your lines or Horns to scare the Elephant are just hopeful lucky shots.
Just like old-style warfare was in general.
You hoped your guys would hold their morale for longer and be able to rout the enemy, because that's how many a battle was decided.
A single guy getting scared and running off could snowball into your lines breaking and thus decide the battle.

Swords and shields.

Well, no, not every account said that. At Gaugamela, I was wrong, the 15 elephants actually did not fight because they were tired. But at the Battle of the Hydaspes, Alexander's men fought around 80-100 elephants straight up, with phalanx especially and cavalry, and beat them toe-to-toe.

In other battles, to quote,

>The Macedonians adopted the standard ancient tactic of fighting elephants, loosening their ranks to allow the elephants to pass through and assailing them with javelins as they tried to wheel around; they managed to pierce the unarmoured elephants' legs. The panicked and wounded elephants turned on the Indians themselves, the mahouts were armed with poisoned rods to kill the beasts but were slain by javelins and archers.

At Asculum, the prepared Romans used fire and anti-elephant weapons, mostly large, long spears custom-made for the purpose, to maim and kill the Epirote elephants, destroying them.

There are several instances of armies destroying and killing hostile elephants, even without taking into account their natural unreliability and nervousness.

Anyway, how 'bout them spears?

Shank him from behind with a dagger.

Land mines are pretty effective.

Who's that hiding in the greentext?!

>Shinobi!

...

Or you could look into wars inside the indian peninsula or SE asia, where elephants were used often enough to see specific countermeasures be developed.

Or you could set pigs on fire. Works too.
>At the Megara siege during the Diadochi wars, for example, the Megarians reportedly poured oil on a herd of pigs, set them alight, and drove them towards the enemy's massed war elephants. The elephants bolted in terror from the flaming squealing pigs.

>Warrior of the night.
youtube.com/watch?v=bmkxsQnNujI

> The Romans also developed another anti-elephant techinique during Hannibal's invasion. First, they would attach ropes between two chariots. The chariots would quickly drive on either side of the elephant, binding the elephant's legs and causing it to trip.
I've seen that somewhere...

traditionally, they work best in formations
while strong and almost unbreakable, they can only move so fast before losing cohesion
many forces could whittle them down with fast skirmishers, they could either stay put and take the attacks, or give chase and lose formation. while it seems like this could be fought with good morale, most historical examples eventually lost without the help of their own mobile units

Nah, man. You're just dreaming.

It doesn't strike me right now, but I'm sure it will come back to me.

These are not the combat tactics you are looking for.

Javelins and slings. Try to flank their formation.

Rear cycle charges as well.

Bows, guns, longer pikes, cannons.

Historically, the counter to the cavalry charge was the bayonet and the infantry square, which was superseded by the use of artillery to pound the ground into feet-deep mud so horses can't move fast, and machineguns to mow the slow-moving horses down in droves.
The counter to THAT was to make armoured horses. That bring a road along with them, carry a rider inside, don't need feeding, and carry a couple of small artillery cannons and some machineguns of their own. And thus, modern warfare was born.

I can speak from anecdotal experience as a reenactor in the pike-and-shot period, but a pike is pretty much useless once you get past the point. If you can knock or hook it out of the way or chop the sharp end clean off, you're good to go. Handaxes are pretty useful in this regard. Historically, most pikemen who couldn't afford a sword would be armed with a hatchet, dagger or big choppy knife for this reason and for general close combat.

Of course, once you get past the point, a smart pikeman will probably just drop it and draw his sidearm.