What's Veeky Forums's opinion on proxies?

What's Veeky Forums's opinion on proxies?

Are they okay to use in general? Should they only be used if you have the card? Are they just illegal in general to use for all formats, including casual games?

What's your opinion?

Pic unrelated.

Any kind of game that uses artificial scarcity to fuel its gameplay is shite. Yeah, sure, the game developer benefits from it, but the quality of the game goes to shit. It's like pay-to-win in MMOs, only there is no "single player".

I personally feel you should only use proxies if you own the card.
But, whatever two or more consenting adults do behind closed doors is none of my business.

Also, your pic is not as unrelated as you think it is.

Eh, Luigi is distinct enough to where he's no longer a palette swap.

I don't even think there's many games where straight palette swaps are even a thing anymore, though that probably has more to do with video games no longer focusing on couch co-op.

It's the nature of card games though.

You can't necessarily give the players every single card in existence and you can easily win casual games with a deck that's full of cheap cards.

it really doesn't have to be though.

There's a whole genre of card games where you buy the set and then build with that. But people seem to like opening packs and spending hours playing the secondary market for incremental monetary gain

Bah, yesterday's pallete swap is today's reskinning.
Would you have us forget such a rich history of cheap proxies?

Those look like bootlegs that you could buy at a flea market or something. Having said that, I miss going to the local flea market.

Well I know Mage Wars, Dominion and the like allows for deck building without sinking money into opening packs but is there more games like that?

Also, are there any that are as popular as, say, the pokemon TCG or MtG?

I don't play cardgames, but in wargames I've let my opponents use proxies before. Things with the same size as the base, lego models, even full-scale "every unit is a bottlecap" nonsense is fine as long as they're willing to be sensible on things in terms of Line of Sight.

Given that cardshit doesn't have models, though, I see no reason to consider proxies a problem. Just means they've got a strategy they want to test before they invest or they're saving up for something solid but expensive.

I found it, they're called Living Card Games.

"LCGs have regular expansions and deck-building like CCGs, but do not have the "blind buy purchase model" of CCGs. Instead of randomized starter decks and booster packs, LCGs have core sets, expansion packs, and deluxe expansions with fixed cards."

As for proxies. I've always hated using them, but I've started delving into the more expensive aspect of the game and it's becoming more and more desirable. Who the fuck even wants to pay 5$ per card. It doesnt seem like much but at 60 cards a deck thats 300$ per deck. and the fact that the regularly most expensive cards in the game are land? It pisses me off that the most boring and fundamental aspect of the game is locked behind a paywall. We could have the exact same deck but because you spent 400$ on proper fetchlands and duallands you will beat me 80% of the time.

Nope. Just 80s quality toy manufacturing.

>flea market bootlegs
See
I need sleep.

I don't think any card game will ever be more popular than mtg. Mtg may not have as many attending tournaments but the sheer number of people who play the game at home and with friends far outnumbers the people who play games like yugioh, vanguard, or any of the LCGs. It's the first successful TCG so it has the legacy and experience to consistently produce balanced sets.

And LCGs will never be as popular as TCGs because people like opening packs and collecting. Most people don't like deck building. Instead they netdeck lists and then spend hours in the shop opening packs, trading, and ripping each other off haha. Also LCGs can't support any sort of drafting experience which is a huge aspect of mtg as well.

I'm ok with people who use proxies for their personal use.

It's when people try to trade/sell proxies to others in order to rip them off that I have a problem with.

personally I just want wizards to fuck over the hardcores and print a fuckton of quality lands. Literally the only people that would be hurt by this would be the ones who spent a thousand dollars on cardboard. Having a paywall as high as it currently is just kills any player that can't afford to participate so they're really just hurting themselves by not making it easier to get into the game.

We already see it happening with warhammer. Increasing paints and model costs may increase profit in the short term, but when new players stop joining it becomes harder to find people to play with, so even more people quit the game.

Rambling a bit here but fuck unnecessarily expensive hobbies

I own a couple original dual lands and I support this entirely.
I also traded my tarmagoyf to a friend for a bunch of cool rares.

I've had so many arguments with people about this, it's ridiculous.

One guy was like, "you're not considering how many people would quit the game. Why should I spend money on this game if the cards are going to tank."

He used the example of birthing pod getting banned and how the next tournament was down in attendance by an amount equal to how many people were playing birthing pod. Like no shit those people didn't go, the only deck they could afford to play was no longer legal. They didn't "quit the game", they probably just spent some time building a new deck and went to the next one.

people seem to think they should be able to make their money back from this game when literally no hobby works like that. And if the cards were only 1$ a piece you wouldn't even bother trying to make your money back in the first place.

>people seem to think they should be able to make their money back from this game when literally no hobby works like that
Yep. Seen this a lot.

Personally I think that proxies can be good as long as they don't get out of hand. It's fine if someone wants to casually play with their friends but can't afford the paywall, but if they show up with a totally proxied tier 0 deck it can kind of ruin the fun.
Basically it's fine as long as you're not that guy

to be fair, showing up with a deck that out tiers your playgroup can always ruin the fun, proxied or not.

It's more about not being a dick than anything else. If you show up with a legacy deck at a kitchen table match, you could build it up and challenge them to 5v1 you and have a great time when you wreck them anyway.