So I recently acquired a reasonable number of AD&D 2e books, and I'm considering running a campaign with them. The thing is that there are some... interesting design decisions in there that I want to house rule, specifically:
1) any race can be any class. 2) stat rolling is based on the racial minimums (humans are assumed to have a minimum of 6 across the board) plus 11d6; you can use any individual for any stat, but you can't go over 18, and can't use part of a roll to bring yourself up to the cap (so if you started with 6 in one stat, you couldn't use 2 5s and a 4 to cap that stat, you'd need to get to 18 exactly). 3) no bonus experience for having a high stat for your class.
There's probably more I'd need to house rule on the fly, but are there any issues with those rules so far? Also, are there any recommended house rules I should use?
For anyone who is curious, here's the books I acquired: >DMG >PHB >Tome of Magic >Complete Warrior's Handbook >Complete Thief's Handbook >Complete Priest's Handbook
>Any Race can be Any Class While I'm leery of allowing Dwarf Wizards in the Forgotten Realm settings (at least AD&D 2E ones), for the most part I don't think anyone will complain about this. Especially since it doesn't break anything outside a few combinations you should be able to see a mile off as DM.
>Stat Rolling but… This one sounds fairly convoluted, if you don't mind me saying so. Plus players not use to RNG chargen instead of static point-buy might get upset with it. An alternative while sticking to the 11d6 is to give everyone two 1's, 2's, 3's, 4's, 5's, and a 6 to distribute as they so desire, and start everyone from a base stat / score instead of by-race (6 being a good start). Still a bit complex, but now you can reliably predict what sort of scores your party has to work with. If PCs wind up underpowered swap the second one with another six.
>No bonus experience for having a high stat I can see the reason behind removing it, but keep in mind that AD&D experience gain is - outside DM gifts - much more a trickle than later editions.
Also, unfortunately… >Complete …'s Handbook These are mostly going to be worthless to you. A few of the kits wind up interesting, but most… not so much. Mastery in its Baldur's Gate iteration will also prove much more conductive / viable than CFH version too.
Adrian Hall
Reading / writing is a skill in 2e . If a character has a reasonable excuse to know it I don't make them put points in it.
I have my players roll a hit dice for HP Regen , default is 1 a day 3 if resting in bed .
Dylan Cox
>Dwarf Wizards in the Forgotten Realm settings
I don't plan on using the stock D&D setting anyway, I'm basically using the rules as a framework and making up a setting to fill in the blanks.
>stat rolling
It is a touch, but it's based on one of the methods in the book (base 8 plus 7d6), it just felt super weird that you roll the stats first THEN pick the race. So I took that method listed in the book, and tweaked it based on the racial minimums chart (it works out a bit better for most races except gnomes and half-elves on average, but screwy rolls either way will distort that). That said, if there is a point buy system in one of the AD&D books I'd like to know because rolling for stats does seem kinda odd (I'm coming from a Shadowrun background here).
>Bonus experience
That makes sense, but surely I could just tweak the experience values up across the board rather than rely on everyone in the group getting the best stats for their class, right?
>Complete (blank)'s handbook
Eh, I figured I might as well get them at the same time, because you know there's going to be some option one player is going to want to use, e.g. Monks (which are in complete priest). Plus they were all going for cheap, so in for a penny and all that.
Nicholas Nelson
wizards cast magic missile at will. they don't get xp for it.
Joshua Kelly
From personal experience in 2ed, a lot of the weirder stuff is mostly fluff based anyway. As folks have mentioned, it won't break anything to change rules around. If you want a good place to look for some changes, try and find a copy of Skills and Powers as a baseline for things.
A lot of the weird anachronistic things in it I actually think have a good purpose, because they force thinking outside the box and get people playing classes they might not otherwise. It can be just as problematic too, as you've no doubt noticed, but just keep that in mind too as you think on changes to make.
Isaiah Smith
>1) any race can be any class. More than anything, that's a matter of aesthetic. But do whatever you want, it's not major.
Parker Rodriguez
>A lot of the weird anachronistic things in it I actually think have a good purpose, because they force thinking outside the box and get people playing classes they might not otherwise
It's a fair point. I might just leave things as is and see how the players react. I still think rolling your stats first and then choosing your race and class seems completely arse backwards though.
Jaxon Morales
>2) stat rolling is based on the racial minimums You missing the whole point of racial minimums. Demi-humans are supposed to be "special", they're supposed to be restricted. You aren't intended to freely pick them.
If you want free reign to pick any demi-human, you might as well remove their stat restrictions altogether.
Luke Garcia
It kind of is and it kind of isn't. It's arse for first timers since it doesn't let them have all the freedom they want. If your players like challenges or aren't too concerned with class, it can be fun.
Again, all comes down to personal taste. I like it, but I know lots of people don't care for it. I'm also the kind of guy who plays Fiasco and freeform text RPGs though, so make of that what you will.
Sebastian Richardson
>3) no bonus experience for having a high stat for your class. Very broadly speaking, bonus xp (and special race/class access) are the ONLY benefits to high ability scores. Seriously, take a look at the ability charts. You pretty much get nothing from incremental boosts.
Eli Hall
Keep in mind that AD&D 2E was from a time wherein you were supposed to roll your stats and - whatever they were - take those to craft a character based on them. Not start with a character in mind and adjust your character to fit.
It's another thing based around thematics, not balance, so it can be scrapped without much trouble. Just worth keeping in mind as a lot of people miss this fact due to starting D&D / PnP games when the default moved to "Have a concept you like in mind and work to make it good".
Cameron Evans
Not entirely true: AD&D 2E heavily weighted bonuses and penalties towards the ends of the spectrum. Having a score that's only a 5 or 6 will introduce some painful penalties, likewise a 17 or 18 amazing boosts (by 2E terms), but by contrast having an eight or fifteen means almost nothing mechanically as opposed to thematic.
Noah Clark
(OP) >For anyone who is curious, here's the books I acquired: >>DMG essential >>PHB esential >>Tome of Magic Good, with a capital G >>Complete Warrior's Handbook garbage >>Complete Thief's Handbook garbage >>Complete Priest's Handbook one of the only good books from the "Complete" line
The rules for monster creation in the DMG aren't awful, but you'll really, really want to grab a Monstrous Manual. In the meantime, here's a website with every single published 2e monster stat-block and write-up.
NWPs, and by extension Psionicists a la. Complete Psionics Handbook, care A LOT about slightly score adjustments. Not too sure why you would use either of those, but I suppose that needs to be said.
But otherwise, no one but fighters really cared. And even they only cared about Constitution and exceptional Strength. Penalties for low scores were slaps on the wrist, and bonus for high scores were just kosher.
Jose Kelly
See that's the kind of thing I'm worried about tripping up on when making house rules, the book even states that the big human advantage is that humans can be any class, whereas the other races are more restricted, but some restrictions don't make sense, like why can half elves be druids but not elves? Or why can't halflings be clerics? (Do halfings not have faith for some reason?)
I'll admit, I am tempted to play it as is, with only minor adjustments here and there (i.e. using some of the optional rules like individual initiatives and the proficiencies system), but it is a world apart from what me and my group know.
I figured I'd grab a PDF of a monstrous manual, given that I plan to use my laptop to run the game anyway.
Julian Campbell
Yep. It's a double-edged sword for AD&D 2E that swings more one way or the other depending on your preferences.
On one end hand, it means that your attributes will probably not modify your rolls particularly much. This can be frustrating for newer players / characters as it'll feel like you're rolling a lot of dice but amounting to very little (same goes for saving throws and such).
On the other hand, this gives you significantly more freedom to customize your characters than later editions. You can be a Fighter who has Int as / tied with their highest score since you never rolled anything better than a 14 so "Why the fuck not?" You can play a Wizard who is Con 8 and you don't really feel it because "Eh I'm a d4 anyways and it's not like I had anything that would have gave me a +1".
If you're more someone interested in the RP aspects, it can lead to more fun and laughs and inspiration than anything else. Likewise if you prefer to have your stats mean something mechanically and feel like they matter, it can lead to bouts of frustration as "Sorry, despite your Dex 14 you failed to hit the peasant with leather armor and a shield for yet another turn".
Carson Miller
Come to think of it, as far as I can tell there's not many ways to actually increase your stats after chargen anyway. It's basically wishes and magical items and that's it.
James Foster
I'd go with death at -10 HP (a pretty standard houserule) but also add on that any instant death effects in the game drop you to 0 or -1 and falling. It makes failed saving throws feel a little less arbitrary.
Just for the record halflings could always be clerics in 2e
Jacob Baker
>like why can half elves be druids but not elves? Druidism is a "human religion", same general constraint for Paladins. >Or why can't halflings be clerics? Pretty sure they can, but that might be a holdover from when Halfings had to be Fighters/Thieves. >(Do halfings not have faith for some reason?) Not all religious people are Clerics. You don't even need faith to be a Cleric, for that matter. But any religious people are probably important members of their community.
Humans may have important Human Reasons for adventuring, but demi-human adventures are poorly adjusted youths from insular societies who've gone out for a lark.
John Clark
>See that's the kind of thing I'm worried about tripping up on when making house rules, Wait until you've played a handful of sessions and gotten used to the mechanics before you start tearing out walls or adding upholstery. There are some fairly nonsensical rules weaponspeedsweaponspeedsweaponspeeds, but most of the rules are there for a reason.
Ethan Wilson
The slow rate of HP recovery in AD&D never made any sense to me, because they're not meat points but a game abstraction.
Jacob Ortiz
While this is true for vidya like Baldur's Gate, it's not at all true for actual AD&D. Any time you're doing something skill-related, you're trying to roll a d20 under your stat, even if you aren't using NWPs. So while having a 15 instead of a 9 doesn't do much for you in terms of bonuses, it's a significant difference in your ability to interact with the world outside of combat and thievery.
>any race any class If you're doing this, you need to give humans some sort of boost. Single-classed humans are strictly inferior to pretty much any other race. Give them bonuses in social situations, or extra NWPs, or a percentage experience bonus.
Dylan Nelson
It normalizes downtime. If everyone needs *this much* downtime, then someone taking *that much* downtime is either barely extra or no extra. Also, it adds pressure and risk to any goals that are on a time crunch (abandon the goal, or do it without healing). Mostly though? It's a holdover from 0e.
>Any time you're doing something skill-related, Bend Bars checks bring out percentile dice pretty often. What you've just described never ever happens though. It *is* by the book, but by the book almost no actions beyond combat require dicing. Normally, the referee just adjudicates an outcome.
>Single-classed humans are strictly inferior to pretty much any other race. Good thing dual-classing is better than multi-classing, even multi-classing without level limits.
John Campbell
Yeah, but it leads to situations where a high level fighter needs more recovery time than low level one to be fully healed. It should be a percentage of maximum HP not a fixed number that gets healed by rest.
Jack Cox
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
High level fighters habitually spend longer boozing and whoring. Mainly because they can. High level fighters spend longer periods of time fighting stronger enemies before going to heal. High level fighters... something, something something? I don't really care.
Find a justification or house rule it. The "rule book" is full of guidelines, it's not a cop.
Luis Miller
>a high level fighter needs more recovery time than low level one A high level fighter tends to have constant access to a high level cleric. A high level clerics who is waiting for the fighter to finish healing.
High level fighters recover very quickly. It's very mysterious.
Brayden Powell
>why can't halflings be clerics
They certainly can in 2E - the allowed classes for a halfling are cleric, fighter, thief and fighter/thief. In 1E halfling PCs were restricted to F, T or F/T. However, NPC halflings could be up to 6th level druids.
Jeremiah Reed
>>Complete Thief's Handbook >>Complete Priest's Handbook Warrior's is 2e, IIRC (might be wrong on that). But those are definitely both 1e books. Parroting Gygax making 1e to screw Arneson out of royalties, 2e was made to screw Gygax out of royalties. Unlike the creation of 1e, the "creation" of 2e changed almost nothing. So those books work fine for 2e. Just remember, while you read them, that they were written for an older edition.`
Evan Butler
They were definitely 2nd edition.
Elijah Nguyen
Hell no, all of the Complete X Handbooks (oxblood colour covers, gold letters) were 2E.
Nicholas Nelson
"complete _____'s handbook" were all 2E. no class specific books were ever created for 1E
Eli Clark
I'm looking at the PHB right now, and it lists clerics being open to all races EXCEPT halflings. Halflings only have Fighter and Thief open to them.
Nathaniel Walker
>Halflings only have Fighter and Thief open to them
Wait, what? Which edition (and which printing) are you looking at? Because my 1995 version of the 2E PHB has this under Halflings:
>A halfling character can choose to be a cleric, fighter, thief, or a multi-class fighter-thief.
Similarly, in the step-by-step character creation part, the allowed races bit is:
>Halfling F, C, T, F/T
I'm fairly certain my 2E 1989 version also has this, since there were halfling clerics in 2E Forgotten Realms and that box came out years before this version.
In 1E, the "no clerics for halflings" would be correct.
Michael Murphy
>Wait, what? Which edition (and which printing) are you looking at?
AD&D 2e PHB, 1989 printing. (The OP image is identical to the one I'm looking at.)
Under clerics, the book specifically says: >Races allowed: Human, Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-elf
Matthew Harris
That would be due to its age. Worth keeping in mind is that every race, even - I believe - all the Monstrous Humanoids book races, can take the class options of Fighter, Thief, and Cleric. Mage is available to most races, with some exceptions (ex: Illusionist-only Gnomes, Sha'ir-only Dwarves), but for three of the big four are available to everyone.
Well, yes, but a lot of people don't use the PHB Proficiency system RAW. For example many people do Common Sense skills, or import a skill system from later editions, or use the "Intelligence Languages => Non-Weapon Proficiencies" optional rule with additional adjustments or so-on.
I'd argue Proficiencies is the most commonly house-ruled thing in AD&D 2E, non-weapon and weapon.
Carter Morris
Really? I guess the later printings do let halflings be clerics then, I'm just going on what I have in front of me.
Alexander Brooks
OP here, quick question about setting: as far as I can tell the rules seem to be designed around the assumption that the world is a Tolkien-esque/medieval one; would things fall apart terribly if it wasn't? I mean I'm not talking skyships and magitech, I'm thinking less King Arthur's Court, more Renaissance Italy.
Weirdly enough, the Halfling section in the PHB and the level cap section in the DMG (yet another weird idea, there really needs to be a design document that explains all these weird choices) states they can be clerics (but can't multi-class it with anything else).
Levi Barnes
>I'm thinking less King Arthur's Court, more Renaissance Italy.
You mean can 2E AD&D do Renaissance Italy? It certainly can.
Michael Morgan
Basically yeah. All my attempts at fantasy settings assume a basic level of centralisation towards cities, rather than having castles for defensive purposes and then towns and villages in between. Capitals in particular tend to end up a bit cosmopolitan, with members of various races living in them.
Aiden Morales
You're both looking at different books I think
Zachary Fisher
If you're going to run 2e, I'd recommend taking a look at 5e Hackmaster.
Isaac Morales
Some of the AD&D settings (such as Al-Qadim and Darksun) work under a similar premise.
Forgotten Realms during the AD&D 2E era was a bit… well, inaccurate in its assumptions. Waterdeep, arguably the largest city in all of Faerun, tapped out at a population of ~130,000; Baldur's Gate likewise is one of the largest and most powerful cities on the Sword Coast and it taps out at ~50,000. It was definitely a setting built around the idea of asstons of small-to-medium towns everywhere with keeps scattered all over the place, but very few major cities / population centers.
Contrast this with aforementioned settings wherein you have cities boasting populations in the high hundreds of thousands and the smaller towns along the way are more a rest stop or footnote than a destination in their own right.
Changing this for your home-brew doesn't change too much mechanically, but it might require tweaking some of the level benefits for certain classes.
Jaxon Allen
AD&D is utter shit, but it probably the best D&D edition.
This is from someone who plays 3.5 and 5e on the regular but also a lot of non-D&D games.
See, 5e is elegantly designed but is also full of horseshit like a bastard mix of 3.5 and 4e's mess of class features and daily abilities
3.5 is obviously an unbalanced rules-heavy mess but the metagame redeems it (in my eyes) and I enjoy making weird builds.
AD&D is full of so much stupid Gygax crap it's unbelievable, but with *some* of 5e's elegance it could actually be a good game.
Unfortunately 90% of OSR clones insist on including shit like attack tables and THAC0 and miss what makes OSR actually good / fun.
Not to mention the lack of freakshow races. At least in my experience.
Jose Morris
You should check out this site: regalgoblins.com/ This guy streams alot of 2e DnD and has several housse rules for it that are easily accesible
John Davis
>Waterdeep, arguably the largest city in all of Faerun
Typical Northern barbarism. That shining jewel of the south, Calimport, has a population of over a million (200,000+ citizens, a million-plus slaves and non-citizens), and it's expressly said to be the biggest city in Faerun.
Also, that 130,000 people would make Waterdeep a really good-sized city in Europe, bigger than London and Genoa in 1400, for example.
If you want really big cities, though, you need to head over to Kara-Tur. 30 million citizens packed into cities and towns, hopefully as carefully laid out as our Chang'an.
Owen Young
>Calimport thinks its special >Huzuz >Population: 800,000 permanent residents. During High Holy Days and on Ascension Day, the population swells to well over a million and a half.
Aiden Walker
Note that product number is the same, because contents are the same.
Elijah Wood
>as far as I can tell the rules seem to be designed around the assumption that the world is a Tolkien-esque/medieval one; Nah, run-of-the-mill Swords and Sorcery setting. Think Fafhrd and Grey Mouser, or read it If you haven't. AD&D books tend to have a "recommended reading" section in the back. When you finish the PDFs in this thread, maybe take a look there? >would things fall apart terribly if it wasn't? No, they would not.
Hunter Phillips
Would it be worth me posting my setting idea in this thread anyway? It might help to see what I have in mind.
Also, where is the recommended reading section? It isn't in the DMG or PHB.
