/tgesg/ - Elder Scrolls General

Yeah, I'm not going to complain any more about it. It's not a big deal, I just want to remind OP not to make a habit out of if.

Ok /tesg/ riddle me this shit.
What's up with Akavir and dragons. What the fuck is up with their red and black dragons. Is the one Tiger King who became a dragon a dovahkiin? Are they just less drug addicted Khajit over in Akavir? Are the dragon guard snake men or the last of the Akavir men the Taesci didn't eat?
I NEED ANSWERS

post vivec reaction pictures

...

So if the Sun is just a hole to aetherius, why does Tamriel have seasons and years?

Who would you worship if you lived in Tamriel?

There aren't any real-lore definitive answers. There aren't any more "pure" Akavir left in Tamriel, but whether the dragonguard were or not isn't known. Also some think Akavir is actually in the future so that complicates things a bit more

Jygglag or Talos, both are actually useful and powerful leaders.

Leaning towards Talos though because the rest of the Daedra don't despise him and really it's only the Thalmor that are niggers about him.

Jyggalag*

Probably the major gods of whatever culture I belonged to. Most of the central gods in common pantheons have something about them that makes them worth worshipping.

Because it's a metaphor, the Sun is also a sun.

Tell me, there is something I've been confused about.
What the heck happened to Ebonarm? Where did he go? After Daggerfall every mention of him is missing, gone, or just straight up removed. The only reference to him I know of is maaaaaaaaybe Ebony Warrior from Skyrim, and even then that is wild speculation. Where did the Yokudan God of War go?
Seriously, did the Dragon Break erase him or something?

Because Magnus and Lorkhan (most likely Lorkhan) made it that way for whatever reason (most likely to provide challenges, trials, and occasionally a break) and that it probably worked well enough to cycle Mundus around and keep it self sustainable and stable

>orc smithing, how good are they compared to Nords?

Orcs are the greatest living smiths. The Dwemer were better but certainly no manish race is close.

>How common is Ebony, and how often do orcs and other races work with it?

Extremely rare, and likewise the smiths with the skill to work it are even rarer. Orcs being the best smiths means that they're probably over-represented as ebonysmiths but there's probably only a handful alive at any one time.

>Do any orcish weapons compare to Wuuthrad or Skyforge steel stuff?

Wuuthrad is an artifact so probably better than most orcish stuff, skyforge steel is not nearly the quality of orcish stuff, the skyforge is wasted on humans imo.

Tosh Raka has undergone Dracochrysalis, by the look of things.

Its a central sacrament in the Khajit religion, apparently it's more like DMT than meth despite it having "meth stats" in the games.

>Are the dragon guard snake men or the last of the Akavir men the Taesci didn't eat?

The ghosts in Oblivion show that the "eating" of the Akaviri humans is metaphorical and there are still humans living on Akavir. the snake-men are the ruling race of the part of Akavir that invaded Nirn but they are probably a minority.

Vivec, Mephala, Meridia, Mara and Sheogorath. Also while I wouldn't worship them, I would make a close study of the Ideal Masters.

Ebony Warrior is definitely meant to be him. He hasn't gone anywhere, he just hasn't featured in any of the recent games.

Azura

>Jyggalag
Why worship him? and why does the other daedra hate him so much?

Kyne, Sheor, Moloch, Peryite, Aka, and Jhunval

Not that fag but the other daefdra hate him because he's the Malal of TES. He waged constant war against the other daedra, and was powerful enough to win more often than not.

I'm plotting to have Hircine, Mora, and Perry become a new, less shit, Tribunal. They even fit the Fighter Mage Thief theme!

They hate him because he stole their shit and tried to murder the multiverse for not being orderly enough. He's like Anu's batshit crazy self-insert.

Mora is the second worst daedra, tho. His whole nature is malevolent, the original Tribunal Anticipations all have positive aspects as well as negative, Mora is literally Mephistopheles. If you want a daedra of knowledge, worship Mehrunes Dagon.

Dagon is a bit too aggressive for my tastes. I'll stick with the evil mindrape tentacle monster. He sounds like an old man and looks cuddly.

Except he has been removed from all lore books that talk about pantheons, including the ones that list the other members of the Yokudan pantheon. There is not a single name drop of him in any in-game books in Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim.

And the book that once listed a story about him, "From The Memory Stone of Makela Leki", when it was brought back for ESO all references to him, which filled up much of the book, where purposefully removed and altered.

The only game that ever lists his name in any capacity is Daggerfall, and after that he is completely missing.

Seriously, Hoon-Ding is still in the books, as are Ruptga, Tu'whacca, and Satakal.

But Ebonarm and Sai have been left completely to dry, and have no literary or in game mentions after Daggerfall, as if TES is actively trying to remove their existence from the canon.

The only reason I can think of them no longer existing from a Lore perspective that isn't based on Obsidian and Beth just removing them due to personal reasons, is that somehow they go retroactively removed from the universe due to the Dragonbreak in Daggerfall for some reason

Yeah but he will only teach you something if he thinks it will bite you in the ass and the only payment he accepts is your immortal soul. Dagon doesn't have to be about aggression, his nature is freedom and boundless creativity, he's the perfect patron for a serious academic or artist.

The idea that Akavir is literally in the future is about the most re-vivec-damned-diculous thing I've ever heard in these threads.

Uriel V Septim invaded the future from the past by crossing over the ocean and kept up lines of communication and logistics whilst doing so? Ra'gada, please.

Any lads here play Daggerfall? How does one deal with liches and magic users when you're a melee focused class?

>kept up lines of communication and logistics whilst doing so?
Except they didn't. The report straight up says that all scrying and magical communication stopped working and they couldn't keep the communication together, which is what helped lead to the whole invasion/settlement being a complete rout resulting in the legion fleeing back to Tamriel, that an potentially Akaviri Weather Mages

Nigger, liches are easy for melee, if you want maximum nightmare mode try fighting one as a pure caster.

Spellcasters have one weakness: Bows. Learn how to snipe those nerds at range.

I play melee. Liches usually blow themselves up, and I've got high enough Dodge and Endurance to where the 1 spell they get off doesn't do much.

Those mages in Manny's lair though? Fuck those guys. Get a bow. Kill them. Make them pay for stunlocking me that one time.

A sample of what we've been working on, for those who care.

Everyone cares. Also you're a wonderful person and I hope not shit things happen to you.

...

What if you're a spellcaster? What do?

Run away.

Shalidor's Mirror is fun. Unless you die anyway. Which you probably will.

Spell Absorb spells don't work?

Sometimes. But not when you want them to.

Could someone explain to me why Boethiah and Mephala are considered "good" daedra? Good/Bad are not concepts you should apply to Daedra, and these two seems to be the "bad" for me

Mostly because they helped the Chimer out at various points, providing guidence, teaching them to use cunning to overcome obsticals rather than brute strength, and clearing the way to the Promised Land that was actually the Already Owned Land Get the Fuck Out of Our Fedora Factory

Really loving the layout. UESRPG has always been really good looking, but I think this is another step up from Inhabitants of Tamriel. It's also noticeably more concise and straight to the point, which I like.
I've yet to sit down and read through the new 3rd Edition, but I'll probably get through it during my Christmas break.
Will probably drop some opinions on it here in the thread, though there's only so much you can say without actually playing it.

Keep up the good work, Seht. And everyone else involved, whoever they may be.

>Based on High Elven designs, orcish armor is an ornate but remarkably light steel plate worn over cloth padding. Light and comfortable by contrast with other steel plate designs, orcish armor commands premium prices from campaigning mercenary officers and style-conscious nobles.
>...their armorers are the finest in the world, and Orc warriors in heavy armor are the best front-line troops in all Tamriel.
>The most prized of medium armors, Orcish, is limited in availability and very expensive, but markedly superior, and is the medium armor of choice for nobles and mercenaries in both the West and East.

Skyrim using Orichalcum as the material for Orcish armor and weapons actually really fucked up its whole point. Originally, Orcs were supposed to make this super-tough and super-light plate armor out of your normal steel just by their sheer skill.
Now it's just "lel superior metal".

>How common is Ebony, and how often do orcs and other races work with it?
Uncommon, and I may be mistaken but don't the Dunmer use it more often than any other race?

Glad you like the layout. We worked for a few days on ways to make it as concise and clear as possible.

Oh, and if you want a place to put feedback there's a google form link via the link compendium (the google doc in the OP) so that way it goes right to me. But if I see stuff in this thread I'll write it down, so it's your choice.

Smithing skill levels go Orc > Altmer/Dunmer > Nord > Imperial > Everyone Else IIRC

The only places you can even get ebony reliably, being that it's the crystallized blood of a good, are Morrowind, particutarly the Vvardenfell District where Lorkhan's heart was shot by Auriel, and the neighboring Skyrim.

>a cultured nation of dreugh who mold their carapaces into desired shapes
>full plate Dreugh Knights
>fiber shell Dreugh Soldiers
>barnacle-covered Dreugh Dreadnaughts
How would this fare?

It would be really fucking cool.

Depends if Dagon dropped Coldsalt on them yet or not but Dreugh gear was about on par with the Ordinator gear if I'm remembering right, so I'd expect that'd be a pretty good match up.

I'd a watch Dreugh Kingdom v. Old Septim Empire war. A post-Great War fight would just be a slaughter.

This, but also with Dreugh putting giant anemones on and using these as weapons.

...

>Then Ayem threw the netchiman's wife into the ocean water where dreughs took her into castles of glass and coral. They gifted the netchiman's wife with gills and milk fingers, changing her sex so that she might give birth to the image as an egg.
>Since he no longer trusted the Altmer of the sea, Vivec gave the carapace of the monster to the devout and loyal mystics of the Number Room.
>and these are warnings older than the Inner Sea, heeded by the wise, who have seen the coeval crawl forth from the untrustworthy oceans time and time, as from the sediment-memory, warnings older than even the West itself, which was not West yet but the left lung of Aurbis and Old Ehlnofey, alike as during the first of the Altmeri formwars, when as glorious dreughs we fell on the meatmerchants of Thras like loss to split their immutables and render their rude- walking slow, into faces tracing back into misdesigned corals and sandplay AE ALTADOON GULGA
>The committee agreed that such a habitat as depicted in the book was impossible (for one, the Hahd described themselves as air-breathers that never needed to break the surface of the sea). This unlikelihood was eventually cemented as an outright falsehood by civilized dreughs living near that region. They had never heard of the Republic of Hahd, and no intellectual of Tamriel ever argued with the cepholomer at that time.

Dreugh kingdoms must be one hell of a setting.

>Auriel pleaded with Anu to take them back, but he had already filled their places with something else.
What does this even mean? Is there a kind of multiverse or something?

...

In daggerfall, how would one go about changing a premade class to make it more playable?

By taking tons of irrelevant weaknesses.

I wish the games did a better job of portraying that instead of making Dagon the most generically demonic of the princes

Same with Molag Bal.

Boethiah is the patron of those who win thru trickery / treachery, which describes the life of Veloth pretty accurately, Mephala gave the Dunmer their first code of laws and established the principle that "nothing is forbidden, everything is permitted, only success matters".

The real question is, why Mehrunes Dagon wasn't considered a good daedra, since the essence of Veloth's teachings is rebellion.

He kind of is, tho. Sure he's the patron of artists, revolutionaries and magical theorists, but he's also the "lord of riots" who yearns to destroy all of Tamriel. He's a more complex figure than most realize, but his evil aspects are not over-stated.

Bal is a much more vile creature than Dagon, he reminds me most of Sauron, whose very nature was to dominate. Like Mora, there's no winning with Bal, he /will/ come out on top if you're foolish enough to deal with him.

>nothing is forbidden, everything is permitted, only success matters
this sounds very evil desu

>The real question is, why Mehrunes Dagon wasn't considered a good daedra
He is literally the devil personified

>this sounds very evil desu

It's relative of course. Coming from the highly caste-and-ritual-bound Altmeri culture, Mephala offered the Dunmer an opportunity to "take their free" and remove the weight of fate from their necks.

>He is literally the devil personified

Sure, but just as Satan has Milton, so Dagon has his own appealing aspects. He embodies freedom, and offers the power to act freely, both seem very in tune with Dunmer philosophy.

>The real question is, why Mehrunes Dagon wasn't considered a good daedra, since the essence of Veloth's teachings is rebellion.
The whole Good Daedra, Bad Daedra dychotomy was invented by Tribunal.
Bal always coming on top doesn't mean you'll necessarily end up on the very bottom. Sure, he'll make you his bitch, but if you work hard enough you can become the top bitch. And of course you'll have bitches of your own.

>The whole Good Daedra, Bad Daedra dychotomy was invented by Tribunal.

No it's a central part of the new religion Veloth created.

>Bal always coming on top doesn't mean you'll necessarily end up on the very bottom. Sure, he'll make you his bitch, but if you work hard enough you can become the top bitch. And of course you'll have bitches of your own.

I guess, but I think you would have to have a curiously slavish and sadistic personality to seek the patronage of Bal. Dagon, on the other hand, has much to offer anyone, and wishes for nothing from you in return for his favor.

>No it's a central part of the new religion Veloth created.
Not really.
This Good/Bad distinction refers completely to those Daedra Tribunal usurped versus the other four.
>The Good Daedra have willingly submitted to the authority of Almsivi; the Bad Daedra are rebels who defy Almsivi -- treacherous kin who are more often adversaries than allies. (Darkest Darkness)
>The Three Good Daedra, Boethiah, Azura, and Mephala, recognized the Divinity of the Triune Ancestors (Blessed Be Their Holy Names). The Rebel Daedra, Molag Bal, Malacath, Sheogorath, and Mehrunes Dagon, refused to swear fealty to the Tribunal (Blessed Be Their Holy Names), and their worshippers were cast out. (The Anticipations)
There's of course this passage:
>Saint Veloth also taught the difference between the Good and Bad Daedra, and won the aid of the Good Daedra for his people while teaching how to carefully negotiate with the Bad Daedra.
But it's from a later Tribunal Temple book and is most likely biased.

>This Good/Bad distinction refers completely to those Daedra Tribunal usurped versus the other four.

No, it was the central creed of Veloth's religion. The "good" daedra are the three who agreed to help him, the "bad" daedra are the other four he asked but who refused.

Also:
>When the Velothi first came to Morrowind, they worshipped our most terrible ancestors, the Daedra Lords. Legends say the Daedra Lords themselves built these great shrines, because mortals could not build anything grand enough to suit them. When the Tribunal claimed to have tamed the Daedra Lords, they forbid the worship of the Bad Daedra, Malacath, Mehrunes Dagon, Molag Bal, and Sheogorath.

>they forbid the worship of the Bad Daedra, Malacath, Mehrunes Dagon, Molag Bal, and Sheogorath
Which implies that these four were worshipped after all.

I cited my sources. What are yours?
inb4 ESO

All seven were worshipped by the Velothi, the Tribunal kicked the followers of the bad daedra out and co-opted the cults of the good daedra. The distinction between "good" and "bad" long predates the Tribunes, howeverm it was a distinction Veloth himself made.

Where is this said again?

Every single text that makes any mention of Veloth and his life and beliefs. You've even cited several and then ridiculously claimed "these are probably just Tribunal forgeries tho".

>Every single text that makes any mention of Veloth and his life and beliefs.
So literally only this one text, which is written from the Tribunal Temple perspective.
All other info from both books and NPC dialogs points to the fact that this distinction is propagated by the Temple and is determined by which Daedra Lords supported Tribunal and which didn't. And we all know all too damn well that Good Daedra didn't even do it by their own will, but rather because of Tribunal usurping their place in the pantheon.

You're completely wrong. The Tribunal abolished the worship of the daedra, good and bad alike. And even the Dissident Priests refer to the good daedra, or are they spouting Temple propaganda as well?

>If you would learn daring, follow Saint Veloth the Pilgrim, Patron of Outcasts and Spiritual Seekers. Saint Veloth, prophet and mystic, led the Dunmer out of the decadent home country of the Summerset Isles and into the promised land of Morrowind. Saint Veloth also taught the difference between the Good and Bad Daedra, and won the aid of the Good Daedra for his people while teaching how to carefully negotiate with the Bad Daedra.
-Lives of the Saints

>Veloth's power as a prophet was in no doubt, but his mossback teachings on the worship of Dunmer forebears are worthy of consideration, as he almost single-handedly began the god-cult worship of the "Good Daedra" prior to the coming of the Tribunal.
-Veloth the Pilgrim, by Lady Nerevar

>"the so-called Prophet Veloth communed with the Daedric Prince Boethiah and agreed to accept her gifts. He inscribed the Velothi Prophecies, which expounded the doctrine of worship of the "Good Daedra" (Boethiah, Azura, and Mephala), along with ways to propitiate and negotiate with the "Bad Daedra" (Molag Bal, Malacath, Sheogorath, and Mehrunes Dagon)."
-Daedra Worship: the Chimer

>” It was Veloth the Prophet who first negotiated the original arrangements with three Daedric Princes, forever defining the differences between "Good" and "Bad" Daedra (as the Chimer viewed them)”
-The Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel/Morrowind

>The Temple forbids the worship of the four bad Daedra -- Mehrunes Dagon, Malacath, Molag Bal, and Sheogorath. But it's a big island, and there's a lot of wilderness, with lots of old Daedric ruins just waiting for a new group of worshippers. The Ordinators have their hands full with heretics and dissidents at home. They can't go out chasing Daedra lovers.
>Council and Temple law forbids the worship of the Rebel Daedra Molag Bal, Malacath, Sheogorath, and Mehrunes Dagon in Morrowind.
>Despite the Empire's public policy of religious toleration, Imperial authority permits the Ordinators a free hand in persecution and extermination of Rebel Daedra cults.

It specifically says that the worship of Bad Daedra is forbidden. No mentions of Good Daedra worship being forbidden too. On the contrary, Good Daedras are described as being "loyal friends of the Tribunal".

> And even the Dissident Priests refer to the good daedra, or are they spouting Temple propaganda as well?
Dissident Priests are still modern priests, coming from Tribunal Temple. And their main point of disagreement with orthodox Temple was never this Good/Bad Daedra thing.

>Lives of the Saints
Already explained above.
>Veloth the Pilgrim
>Daedra Worship: the Chimer
>The Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel/Morrowind
conceited_akaviri_concubine.fresco

>It specifically says that the worship of Bad Daedra is forbidden. No mentions of Good Daedra worship being forbidden too. On the contrary, Good Daedras are described as being "loyal friends of the Tribunal".

How many shrines to the good daedra did you see in Morrowind?

There's at least Mephala's one. But it's really not about the shrines, even without them Good Daedra are still venerated, not as Gods as previously (as they got usurped by ASV), but as Anticipations:
>These Rebel Daedra thus became the Four Corners of the House of Troubles, and they continue to plague our tranquility and tempt the unwary into Heresy and Dark Worship. The Priests of the Temple remain ever vigilant for signs of the Adversaries' return, sometimes aided by the loyal Three Good Daedra, who are familiar with the wiles of their rebellious kin.
>The Good Daedra are known to the Temple as the Anticipations, since they are the early ancestral anticipations of the loving patronage of the Tribunal. The Anticipations are the Daedra Lords Boethiah, Mephala, and Azura.

Also notice "These Rebel Daedra thus became...".

>"Certain Daedric summonings are more often encountered on Vvardenfell. Good Daedra are the Daedra associated with Boethiah, Azura, and Mephala -- the winged twilight and the hunger. Bad Daedra are associated with Mehrunes Dagon, Malacath, Sheogorath, and Molag Bal. Atronachs are unaligned Daedra of the elemental planes. But don't judge a summoning by its patron. The summoner commands a summoning, and, good or bad, nice or nasty, they must do the summoner's bidding."
-Sinnammu Mirpal, wise woman of the Ahemmusa

I suppose the Ashlanders are just repeating Temple doctrines too?

>The Dunmer are descended from the Chimer, who were apostates of the Aldmeri's Aedra worship. As the Alessian Reforms never took hold in Morrowind, their pantheon bears little resemblance to the rest of Tamriel. The Dark Elves' original religion was worship of several Daedric Princes, the so-called "Good Daedra," but that has been largely superseded by reverence for the "Living Gods" of the Tribunal.
-Varieties of Faith: The Dark Elves

And the Imperials are apparently also in on the conspiracy!

I call bullshit. This line is only present in Daedric Summonings topic, which is filtered for:
1. Smokey Morth, a Bosmer Sorcerer in Vos.
2. Vala Catraso, an Imperial Priest in Ald Ruhn
3. Witches in Ald Daedroth
4. Warlocks in Ald Daedroth.

And all of them are just telling you how Daedra are handled on Vvardenfell.

Nice ESO lore.

...now that I think about it, I can agree on the distinction between Good and Bad Daedra existing prior to Tribunal rule, but only in the post-Apotheosis, rewritten timeline, where ASV were always Gods and "Good Daedra" actually being the Anticipations.

By the way, there are also these lines:
>When the Velothi first came to Morrowind, they worshipped our most terrible ancestors, the Daedra Lords.
>The Temple regards the Daedra as powerful ancestor spirits, similar to the Tribunal, but weaker and more capricious. Before the Tribunal, the Daedra were worshipped as gods by the Dunmer, but were undeserving of this veneration, since they harmed their followers as often as they helped them.
As you see, this "terribleness" refers to both "Good Daedra" and "Bad Daedra", without any distinction.

So how do Birthsigns work in lore? Are there really people running around with the Atronach sign, lolstomping mages with their absorption ability?

Ffoulke's "The Firmament" mainly explains Birthsigns' effects as being related to personatity, with some vague references to the in-game effects:
>Those born under the sign of the Warrior are skilled with weapons of all kinds, but prone to short tempers.
>Those born under the sign of the Lady are kind and tolerant.
>Those born under the sign of the Steed are impatient and always hurrying from one place to another.
So I imagine the actual effect just varies from person to person.

Check the Morrowind version

Fuck you. You probably liked the lore rape of oblivion.

Oblivion had well-written guild questlines and a comfy atmosphere, I can't hate it

Calm down now.
I had fun with Oblivion, and there's an underappreciated amount of good lore in that game and its expansions.

The seasons are inside Arkay's influence (him being the god of the cycles of life and death and all). I would guess him orbiting Nirn is what causes the different seasons.

How does its orbit even work?