Nobledark 40k X(mas): idea growth out the wazoo edition

This.

Book of Lorgar and derivative works is in very widespread circulation. It provides a basic education in avoiding the grasp of Chaos, how to spot it in others, why it's a bad thing and what to do about it.

It works as well if not slightly better than the Ecclesiarchy of Vanilla 40k.

Commissars represent a tangible tie for the foot sluggers to the Imperium of Man and Eldar. Some people in the real world have trouble thinking past their city/tribe/religion to focus on what's good for their nation. Take that problem, and magnify that to a galactic level. Guardsmen that might previously have considered the trip to the big city a long ways away are suddenly surrounded by technology beyond imagining, aliens they've only heard in legend, and worst of all, guardsmen that they're told are the same species as they are, but do everything completely wrong in the most disgusting ways. Some of those freaks have TATTOOS for pity's sake!

This isn't just the problem that the grunts suffer. Officers, graduating top of their class at the finest war academies on their worlds are forced to rub elbows with complete yokels that couldn't tell you the difference between a flanking maneuver and their asshole, or complete snobs that sneer at one another's credentials and undermine authority with their pompous arrogance. In short, for humans faced with the weird and unknown, they can get unpredictable. The commissar is there to ensure that every soldier remembers their duty to the Imperium, and prevent culture shock from harming army cohesion. Guardsmen regiments are given a great deal of latitude- they may specialize in their own methods of warfare, select their own uniforms, and create their own command structures, with the exception of the commissar. Every raised regiment requires a commissar, and every commissar dresses exactly alike, and every guardsman regiment is required to train and recognize what the commissar represents as the Imperium made manifest, the final word on matters of justice, and the last resort commander. Regiments across the galaxy immediately know that if all their native officers fall, they need to look for the cap and great coat to follow.

Something something also act as military police tired I come back later

Holy shit this is good

So are ther eldar and other xenos in the commissairiant?

Impressive.

The only things I am still wondering are how do IG commanders and commissars function? Is the Commissarist associated with the military this time around, having been created to make sure the wheels go smoothly? Does the commissar have power over the commander, or does he act more like the commander's right hand who keeps the men in line and the right supplies in stock (while also technically having authority to pull rank on the commander in case of Chaos corruption)?

And if the Commissars are military police, how do they relate to the SoB? Are they like "solve any problems that crop up at the local level on my own, if the grox shit is really going to hit the fan and its something I can't do alone call in the big guns"?

They do not rule, they do not follow.

They look over the shoulder of the rulers to make sure they aren't doing anything too stupid and they make sure the plebs follow.

They can't pull any rank unless everyone else with a real officer rank is dead. They can't execute anyone unless they are sure that they are acting in cowardice rather than tactical sense, they are obviously Douglas Haig levels of incompetence or that they are secretly on the other team.

They have no rank. They have very little actual authority, although what authority they do have is terrible and terrifying. Everyone gets a basic anti-Chaos education, the commissars get additional training.

This time around there was no great and cast iron divisions in the break up of the old Legions. If you are part of an Imperium commissioned fighting force you get one of these scary fuckers traveling around with you.

It's not so bad, they are usually very well educated in the ways of war and they sometimes come out with good ideas.

So, would it be accurate to say that Commissars are to Guardsmen as Custodes are to Space Marines? Or am I underestimating the power level of Custodes.

I thought the custards were the Emperor and Isha's bodyguards?

>CSMs are starting to take form; most but not all from DAs. Plus since they're rare than Croneldar
I was wondering that if CSM was say made of 3/5 DA than the other 2/5 should be made of another two different legions than. The numbering of the CSM could be anywhere from 100,000-300,000 just to keep them outnumbered by the Chaos Eldar at all times while still keeping them a real threat to sectors. Without any unholy bullshit, all of the CSM fighting 1 on 1 could be crushed by five full SM legions thus forcing the CSMs to become very cultish very fast. The turned CSMs need as much magical Chaos bullshit just to survive when loyalist forces learn that they have turned so they all start to willing offer serfs and burning hive-cities in order to always keep one step ahead of hunting Imperial forces.
1/5 of the CSMs should Slaaneshi Night Lords,now stay with me here, things like broadcasting torture across a sub-sector or mutilating a corpse beyond recognition in which they clearly enjoy it is something the whispers of Chaos can influence these SMs. Their motto is "Fear the Shadows".
The other 1/5 should be Nurgleite Imperial Fist, this is where these SMs are desperately defending a hive-city from Chaos Orks on let's say Necromunda but are losing the battle and know the only hope of victory is by reviving their fallen brothers or SMs fighting without legs/ missing an arm. The dead SMs in the streets are piled up with armor still on them to be used as barricades when the fighting become hopeless. Their motto is "For the Imperium".
The original Chaos DA could be split into 3 ways as infighting broke out after they fled into The Maelstrom at the end of the WoTB. The 1/3 of the CDA are the old guard that planned the rebellion want to maintain they are Chaos Undivided just to call in favors from any gods while still looking like they could join one of the gods any time but won't.

Haven't the Eldar and the Imperium been allied and mingling since the end of the DAoT? You'd think culture shock would've worn off.

We're dealing with a ten to twenty thousand year time span here. The stuff from the earlier threads with the hunky dory mutual respect and the romanticisation of the truce comes latter.

(cont.)
The DA motto is "Death to the false humans".

The splinter warband that is made up of 1/3 former CDA led by disgruntled veterans can form a group called the "Skull Angles" in which they only worship Khorne. Commonly those in the SA believe that because of the fact the DA when turned traitor didn't just outright killed the civilians or POWs instead trying to convert them all. The mass conversation, understandably, slowed down the traitors leading to the loyalist being given time to react with overwhelming numbers thus forcing the traitors to flee to The Maelstrom. Their motto is "Fill the skulls with blood!"

The last 1/3 of the DA to splinter off formed into a warband called "Warp Spirits". They are led by low-ranking officers that fought in the WoTB and saw the traitor DA hesitate to use the full potential of the Warp. They even placed restrictions on what certain hex, spells, or summoning couldn't be done even as they were fleeing from Loyalist forces. The warband now broke away from the DA and only worship Tzeentch, thinking they could have planned the rebellion better. Their motto is "Blessed with victory".

This should have the CSM as a diverse force that is devoted to each Chaos God and Chaos Undivided while adding defectors from legions other than [TRIGGERED] Dark Angles.
The CSM navy would still be the same vastly outnumbered and outdated fleet like in vanilla!40K but this time more outnumbered, but to compensate the ships can be covered in Warp properties such as random damage absorption or illusionary doubles at various distances.
Tiny tricklings of defectors from the other legions can form into smaller warbands after the WoTB but the majority of the CSM are made up of direct descendants of the original 3 traitor legionnaires.

Should there be equivalent to Father Christmas beliefs in the Nobledarkness?

Earlier thread said that post-fall Eldar tend to have a lifespan of about 4000-5000 years. Eldar and mankind have been allied for 10,000 years.

Doing some back of the hand calculations with the (very big) assumption that eldar generation time versus maximum lifespan is similar to humanity, only about 6 generations have passed for the Eldar since the alliance began. That is only about 180 years from a 21st century human perspective. Add on top of this that you have the older, more conservative Eldar still around for quite a bit of time (given the bigger error bars on age) dictating policy and reminding the young'uns that things weren't always so rosy, and things change a lot slower than one would expect.

>The CSM navy would still be the same vastly outnumbered and outdated fleet like in vanilla!40K but this time more outnumbered, but to compensate the ships can be covered in Warp properties such as random damage absorption or illusionary doubles at various distances.

Depending on the availability, the human forces of Chaos could just take space Hulks and strip them for parts. All they have to do is clean the hulk of genestealers and miscellaneous weirdness, since Chaos doesn't care if it's stuff is warp-tainted, and most Orks are chaos-aligned in this timeline.

Despite their being no schism within the Mechanicus, there are still probably plenty of Hereteks around. The repressive nature of the Mechanicus and the general tendency of younger, more naive members to try to poke stuff they shouldn't means that you're probably always going to get someone who is willing to partake in forbidden experiments doing things like using daemon blood instead of oil. The Mechanicus are probably more likely to fall than the average Imperial citizen because like corrupted Inquisitors in regular 40k they're arrogant enough to believe that they can control Chaos until they're in so deep they can't get out.

On the subject of Dark Angels, I wasn't sure if we had decided to completely scrap the Watchers in the Dark (I know there is a rank within the loyalist DA chapters called "Watcher", so I wasn't sure), but in case not here is just an idea for the Watchers in the Dark as a minor xenos race.

When the Old Ones left much of their webway-making equipment on Caliban, it left a bit of a hole in the fabric of reality that allowed Warp energy to leak through. This wasn’t helpful for a planet so close to the Eye of Terror, and much of the planet became uninhabitable due to Warp exposure turning the local ecosystem into a hellscape. Out of a sheer need for survival, the native sapient species of Caliban developed into a society fanatically obsessed with opposing Chaos and reclaiming their planet, but because of their limited physical prowess were unable to do much more than keep their few remaining bastions of civilization untainted at great cost.

The Dark Angels, being the first legion sent out beyond the solar system to look for survivors of the Age of Strife, were the first to encounter Caliban. Luther, more worried that the Imperium was going to carve up Franj while his back was turned, was dismissive, whereas Lion, ever the idealist, saw the Watchers as a Chaos-opposing people in need and stepped in to help. Lion and the Dark Angels cleaned up most of the Chaos Beasts on Caliban, and in gratitude the Watchers pledged their fealty to Lion and the Dark Angels. A small garrison of Dark Angels was left on Caliban, but this notably did not include Lion or Luther. The garrison’s job was to help the Watchers rebuild their planet, but it was difficult because they could never really find the source of the Warp corruption and could only keep the number of beasts to a minimum.

(cont.)
The Watchers in the Dark are essentially the reason the loyalist Dark Angels even survived the schism. When two-thirds of your forces turn on you at once, it is difficult to even survive under normal circumstances. Although the Watchers couldn’t physically fight against the traitor space marines, they could relay information and help loyalist marines find one another. And in a pinch, if you don’t pay attention to Orko in the corner with a knife while fighting your loyalist brother, he will seriously mess up your day. However, in the course of the fighting during the schism, Caliban blew, and the Watchers in the Dark were left without a homeworld. Some say the Watchers intentionally blew their homeworld, to deny the Fallen the use of the Chaos Beasts and the artifacts beneath its surface.

The Watchers are a very minor xenos race. Their homeworld is gone, and there are only just enough of them to act as support staff for the loyalist DA successors. At first the Watchers were a rather poorly kept secret to the rest of the Imperium. However, when the Imperium started letting minor xenos races into the Imperium, the Dark Angels were some of the first in line to present a petition on behalf of the Watchers. People coughed when they saw this, but let the Watchers in anyway. Even as an official part of the Imperium, the Watchers are kind of enigmatic. Watchers in the Dark can occasionally be seen on hive world and in other metropolitan areas, but are almost always running some kind of errand for their chapter. Their biology and social structure beyond “warp-resistant, long-lived, and hate Chaos” are only known to the Dark Angels and a few Inquisitors who have found out via other means. Even the gender of a given individual is not clear. They technically don’t pay a tithe, but since the entire species is basically a vassal race glued to the ass of the Dark Angel successors, nearly every adult member of the species serves in some fashion.

The problem is, that even watching a Bloodthirster from 500m can corrupt you.
Not for sure, but there's a chance down the road.
Hence the "kill them all and let the emperor sort them out" acts of the main universe Inquisition.
Chaos is just that dangerous.

That demon just fed the Emperor a lot of faithful. Dumb demon.

They allied in the crusade. Means around 10k years allied. DAoT ended 5k years earlier.

I really like this.

There could be oh so many in-universe rumors surrounding them.

That they are Imperium sworn Hrud.
That there have been none born since their breeding grounds got destroyed.
That they haven died out because they have a secret sanctuary under one of the Hives of Old Earth, the last breeding ground they have
They survive as nomadic creatures now, forever moving with their astartes masters. Their homes are star bases and ships and fortresses.
That they can slip into an somehow travel through darkness.
That they hand out present to good little boys and girls under the command of Cypher Claws.
That the Mechanicum uses them to spy on your comings and goings and dreams.
That they somehow know the names of everybody they meet.
That besides the eldar they are the only creatures to be able to navigate the webway.
That they sing beautifully but they won't let anyone hear them.
That the eldar forgot who they were, but the Watchers remember them and remembered more than the eldar would like.

So what are the Adeptus Arbiters like?

Yeah, but I'm talking in terms of skill/power level, not duties

Original writefag here, I like a bunch of these ideas as in-universe rumors.

>That there have been none born since their breeding grounds got destroyed.
>That they haven died out because they have a secret sanctuary under one of the Hives of Old Earth, the last breeding ground they have

Some extra info, at least in terms of what the average Imperial citizen wouldn't know, is that the Watchers have extremely long lifespans and warp resistance as a result of natural selection on Caliban (the adaptations to prevent mutation and cellular degeneration also help slow aging). This is about all that kept their species from extinction, since they maintain reproductive age for a longer period of time (think tuatara or sturgeon).

Depending on the numbers of DAs (by which I mean the successor chapters), the Watchers would be considered a threatened species by our standards. There probably has been reproduction since the Schism (if nothing else because even with long lifespans Watchers would be near extinction after a while), but since no one knows how to tell a young Watcher from an old Watcher, no one can tell the difference.

The long life thing also is why they almost never intentionally fall to Chaos. Young Watchers hear a lot from their elders "we had a nice planet once, and then Chaos ruined it. Fuck those guys".

The Steward probably knew they existed before they officially became members of the Imperium (probably from the Lion), but didn't say anything because they were clearly anti-Chaos and reliable. Its also why their acceptance got through despite being mysterious creatures attached to the legion infamous for going rogue.

The only reason the DAs know about them is because the Lion went out of his way to do them a solid back in the day, and as far as they're concerned the loyalist DAs are good people. They just don't trust other people yet, especially given their currently precarious situation.

Or if these don't work, lets hammer something else out.

How much of a chance? If it's high enough that just seeing a daemon from half a kilo while you are running away from the general mayhem can corrupt you, then most of the primarchs and everyone at the Battle of Terra should have been killed because of the high daemon presence. Nobledark Imperium literally has books explaining things like "minimum safe distance" and "when to start running".

Keep in mind Chaos supplements their armies with a lot more daemons than in vanilla!40k, given they don't have nine traitor legions to work with. That would mean a whole lot more purging than usual if all else is the same.

Of course, there definitely are aspects of Chaos which are about as safe to be around as nuclear radiation. I can see people treating GKs (if the GKs are publicly known) with an odd sort of James Bond-esque respect. They know they're doing something important, but they also know they do not want to know the specifics of what that actually is.

I'm not sure it works that way.

>End of the DAoT?
Sorry, what? I thought the initial first contact was early GC (or at least starting formal relations, where Eldrad gave a hand into the creation of GKs in return for the raid). AFTER rescuing Isha, the alliance was formalised, and only after the WotB was it more than just a token of technology exchanged for brute force.

>>Still need Weebs

The Tau are in a rather interesting position in this universe. In contrast to vanilla 40k, the Tau of nobledark!40k are kind of arrogant. When the Imperium made first contact with the Tau and offered inclusion, the Tau turned them down, thinking they could do things better by themselves. The Imperium tried to take the role of “older sibling that has been around the block once or twice” with the Tau Empire, but the Tau mostly refused to listed until the Imperium had to step in and bail their ass out of the alligators with the Dark Eldar.
However, come M39-40, with the integration of the Tau into the Imperium, things are liable to change. The Tau are likely to discovery that, with the exception of the lack of Tau supremacy, the general beliefs of the Imperium are largely synergistic with the Tau idea of the Greater Good. In this universe, the Imperium represents an organization of like-minded species that joined together out of mutual benefit and self-interest, against forces which are decidedly anti-civilization (Chaos, Orks, Tyranids).
Indeed, in many ways in this universe the Imperium is virtually synonymous with civilization. In this respect, the Imperium is rather similar to ancient China. Because Imperial China grew up surrounded by steppe nomads and other people they considered as yokels, the ancient Chinese saw the concept of China itself as essentially synonymous with civilization. Even when China was divided into numerous warring feudal kingdoms, all of these warring states still saw each other as fundamentally Chinese, because to them China = civilization. The only civilizations whom ancient China ever saw as near equals were the Persian Empire and the Romans (who were tellingly referred to as “the China on the other side of the world”).

(cont.)

Since the beginning of the Imperium, the battle lines have been drawn between the “civilized” factions and the “uncivilized” ones (i.e., the ones which have no sense of order or reason, even an alien one). Even the most “uncivilized” parts of the Imperium are still pro-civilization. Russ and Khan came from warrior nations, but they came from one with rules and honor. The same is true for Saim-Hann among the Eldar. They may not be Alaitocs or Colchians, but they are definitely pro-civilization, even if their view of civilization was a bit more untamed (but pointedly not uncivilized) than the average person. This view would have been increasingly magnified when races like the Demiurge were included, essentially codifying that Imperium = civilization.

This may be one reason why the Imperium were baffled by the Tau, and why they spent so much time and effort trying to help them. Here was a race that was clearly civilized by the Imperium’s standards (and much more easily defined as civilized than many parts of the Imperium), and yet did not want to join. It was like a civilized race was rejecting the fact that they were civilized.

(cont.)

This may also be why the Imperium is so freaked out by the Necrons. To build off of what user said in a previous thread, the Necrons clearly have order, they have some reason, but as a post-scarcity, post-heroism society they are decidedly different from what a society like the Imperium sees as civilization. The Necron Star Empire is a grimbright leaning empire compared to the otherwise nobledark Imperium. The Silent King essentially speaks for all Necrons, not because the Necrons need a hive mind like the tyranids but because it is pointless to do otherwise. In contrast, the Imperium has a multitude of individual opinions and the actions of individuals are often what makes sure the empire is in one piece at the end of the day. Indeed, most of the Necron Lords who want to jump ship and join the Imperium are the ones who prefer individuality to being just another appendage of the Silent King. To paraphrase Bones, “it’s civilization, Oscar, but not as we know it.”

(cont.)
But back to the Tau. Now that the Tau are intermingling with the wider Imperium, it becomes clear to them (particularly the Water caste, who does most of the mingling) that despite all their efforts the Tau are way behind when it comes to technology. The Imperium has stuff, they want it, especially since they see themselves as one of the most prominent minor races in the Imperium after the Big Two. As a result, I could easily see the Tau empire going through its own version of the Meiji Restoration, hurryingly trying to export technological development and modernize to get them up to par with the rest of the galaxy as well as experimenting with foreign social ideas and reworking them to fit within their own social context. In essence, there may be a significant number of Imperiaboos among the (primarily Water caste) Tau.

Indeed, this may be why Farsight decided to take his ball and go home, a backlash and desire to return to the old ways almost always seems to happen when a culture tries to modernize and see if there is any wisdom in these foreign social ideas.

No matter how fast the Tau modernize, it won’t be enough to make them a player in the End Times, but provided the Tau manage to survive the apocalypse, it might place them in a very advantageous position in the rebuilding of the Imperium.

(cont.)

As a final point, what should we do about the fact that the Ethereal caste has been suggested to have been engineered by the Eldar in M36 to uplift the Tau for some reason (possibly to use as allies/cannon fodder). In the nobledark Imperium, the Eldar would have no need to do such a thing, since they already have humans as allies, and humans would be kind of skeptical of the idea of trying to mess with another species' development (more out of "we need to get our own house in order" rather than any Prime Directive).

I would say the Ethereals are just natural Tau psykers in this universe, but you know, Tau. No psykers. Maybe the Ethereals here were just normal Tau who unified the Tau through their own actions, akin to what the Warlord did for mankind. As befitting a nobledark universe, the Ethereals in the nobledark universe brought their species together through blood, sweat, and tears, rather than Orwellian mind control.

I like all this, especially the description of Necrons as post-heroism. That being said, a few prodding points:

>despite all their efforts the Tau are way behind when it comes to technology.
I sincerely doubt this, given how their technology is depicted in Vanilla. Remember, even though Nobledark isn't pants on head retarded, it's still pretty stagnant; Oscars common sense doesn't influence the mechanicus as much as it does the Squishy Imperium, and as such they're still incredibly conservative and opposed to change. And they're STILL mopping up the occasional STCs from the DAoT. I'd say they're a few more steps forward than they are in Vanilla, but not in any position to be reliably out-teching the Tau.

>Still need non-Battle of Terra WotB stuff
Could the Battle of Necromunda be a major conflict during the WotB, where the Imperial Fist fought to control both ground and space around the hive-world. The world is the munition manufactorum that supplies directly to the front lines and Terra itself. The Beast made a beeline for Terra to recapture Isha and kill Oscar, in order to make the Battle of Terra easier the Orks and CE worked together in cutting off the entire Sol-Sector from the rest of the Imperium. When a blockade couldn't be establish by the Chaos forces they switched to not cutting supplies lines but rather attacking the production of supplies itself. The ever opportunistic DE joined along for the ride with the Chaos forces to make the Imperial shipping lanes a living hell to operate within Segmentum Solar.

The sights of a big WAAAGH! had the poor planet of Necromunda as the next pray after already destroying several Imperial worlds when they bypassed Terra. Still rich in mineral and other resources the hive-clusters on the surface would be devastated in the fighting over in the orbit as debris from Imperial Navy wrecks, Ork rocks, and twisted Crone corpses. Due to people living so tightly packed, tens of thousands of civilians died just in the first week of fighting over the planet. The Imperial Fist sends a detachment of 40,000 under First Captain Sigismund to defend the planet at all cost, but an unknown amount of ships got lost in transit due to Warp interference that was probably conjured by the CE(?). When Sigismund arrived over the planet, the Imperial Navy was in a stalemate with Chaos ships where neither side could attack without being destroyed in a single battle. Unfortunately, the Ork ships orbiting Necromunda had mostly crashed onto the surface to begin invading the planet. Sigismund would report that Imperial Fist ships are arriving over the planet at random times yet there were enough Battle Barge to kill the Chaos fleet.

The technology is supposed to be closer to that of 30k, if not a little more advanced from the STCs that have been discovered since then. No HH, no Mechanicus schism, no massive drop in tech levels.

Also according to the previous threads the Tau got kicked in the balls a few times due to tyranids, Dark Eldar, A.I. rebellion, Dark Eldar, internal conflict, and Dark Eldar. It stands to reason that they might have lost some of their tech, especially most of the A.I. stuff.

That being said I agree with you that the gap between Tau and Imperium is nowhere near as big as the gap between, say, Imperium and DaoT mankind. It's more of "what have they learned and how can we make it work for us".

Tau also way further along with how to work with plasma than Imperium.

All of the races of the Imperium seem to have some major flaw. Tau need to learn they aren't the center of the universe. Eldar need to learn to admit that they fucked up and pick themselves up off the ground. Humans are harder, because of the sheer diversity, but the closest I can think of is humans need to learn they can't control everything. The most successful members of these races are the ones who have taken these lessons to heart and learned from them.

(cont.)
The Battle Barges combined with the Imperial Cruisers attacked to finally crush the remaining Chaos fleet.

The damage was already done for Necromunda as the majority of the invading Orks had already crash landed into or near the hives-clusters. Sigismund ordered all available Imperial Fist SMs to land and defend the manufactorums at all cost. The hive cities were turned to fortresses (more than usual), in that the Orks paid five Boyz for every one Space Marine. Even this was not enough when the Orks outnumbered the Imperial Fist, ten to one. What was more frightening was that the invaders were making fast progress as well. Thousands of Imperial Fist were lost within the first few days of fighting in the hives. Sigismund was not shocked with the losses but rather had expected them knowing how the battles in the WotB worked. What he did feel was worried by the fact that as this battle of attrition continued, the Imperial Fist will lose the world being bleed dry.

The streets were filled with trenches, the spires were kill-zones, and rooms were bunkers. Hallways were blocked off with the body of fallen Imperial Fist with armor still on them. Hive gangers had resorted to cannibalism while the rest of the civilians fled away from the hives. The desperate and pure hopelessness of fighting in the hives led to many, including Sigismund, to fall under the sway of the Plague Father. The wishes of eternal life and reviving fallen brothers to help the defense of Necromunda were granted under a demonic pact with the First Captain's blood. The words "I offer all those presently under my command" had damned all 40,000 (living and dead) Imperial Fist along with the mortal crew of the Battle Barges, to serve Nurgle.

There's all the psychic tech like gellar fields, teleportariums, stasis grenades, void shield, and true warp drives, and other inexplicable shit that humanity used to mass produce and still can build and service with expertise. This is stuff with roots in the DAoT that may be lost to the imperium on a theoretical level, but remain within their technical repitoir. On top of this, eldar tech is actual magic, and the tau wouldn't believe it to be real even as it wrecked their shit, and it falls under the umbrella of imperial assets.

(cont.)
The fallen Imperial Fist were brought back, along with some being granted immunity to pain and being able to fight while still missing all limbs but one arm. Now the Orks had to kill every Space Marine twice and they could take twice as many wounds. The blessed Imperial Fist shot the Orks in the front as the revived brothers shot from behind, the Orks had walked into a trap of their own making. In the ending stages of hunting down the last Orks, an unknown Space Marine clearly blessed with illnesses shouted "For the Imperium!" before slicing an Ork with his Lighting Claws.

The Battle of Necromunda was won but not for the Imperials nor The Beast. The real victors were the Chaos Space Marines, true the Imperium still hold the planet and the Ork WAAHG! was crushed. This was done for the price of almost 40,000 Imperial Fist turning to Chaos and forever being lost to the Imperium. Those on the planet that seek the Dark God's help did so when they were forced to flee then losing the planet or have a heroic last stand then losing the planet. Well, one must remember that Sigismund was told to "Hold Necromunda at all cost" even at the price of any lives and damnation.

The traitor Imperial Fist would quickly and quietly depart from the sub-sector on their Battle Barges before the news broke out, then announcing to their mortal crew that they would now fight the Imperium. The traitors would rename themselves into "Rotten Fist" as a joke about how the Imperium would be rotting in the future. Their motto is still "For the Imperium" as some odd form of love for the Imperium or a reference to how they fell to Chaos due to defending the Imperium.

Rotten Fist marines during the WotB were sighted fight Orks and Imperial forces but not the CE. After the Battle of Terra, the Rotten Fist along with other CSMs were hunted down by Loyalist Space Marines. The Rotten Fist would flee to The Maelstrom.

But I don't wanna lose Sigismund...

As a nitpick, 1 SM to 5 Boyz would be extremely poor combat performance for the SMs. 400,000 Orks is probably only a planetary level threat, maybe solar system level if the system is low tech with poor PDF, whereas 40,000 Space Marines is approaching the size of a small legion and is a sector level threat. The Orks would have to number in the millions to fit your scenario. (Sorry, I'm a stickler for consistent power levels)

Even when I wrote 1 SM to 5 Orks I was thinking "Isn't this a bit too low? Shouldn't it be more like 1 to 10." I remembered a 5 man tactical SM squad could take on a 20 man Ork Boyz squad. I realized that these Orks were not just regular Orks but was running on Chaos Warp magical shit that makes them fighty(?).
>The Orks would have to number in the millions to fit your scenario.
Well more like 600,000 to 1,000,000 had landed on the planet while countless more were probably killed in the actual landing or the void combat.

Also to add, maybe 10,000(?) got lost in transit and the rest of the detachment was being trickled in as the battle dragged on. When Sigismund arrived there was already enough Battle Barges that came before his that they can make a difference in the void battle before the rest if the detachment arrived.

>numbers numbers numbers
Might wanna revise those up further, fampais - remember the other thread (that was, admittedly, full to the brim with autism) about Orks staging an invasion of modern day Earth? Apart from how it ended up in shitflinging about
>REEEEEEE THEY'D KINETICALLY BOMBARD US (t. faggot who doesn't understand 40k)
>REEEEEEE THEY WOULDN'T BECAUSE THAT'S NOT ORKY (correct answer)
it was also figured that an Earth fully geared up for war could still soak up 20 million Orks and carry on going, even assuming up to 100:1 casualties on our part. Adjust upwards becaue we have navies and air forces worth of the name and because we have combined arms, then adjust back downwards because "muh M1 Abrams has bettah specs than a Lemon Rush" doesn't take into account that the latter regularly shrug off plasma weapons.

Basically, unless you're talking about slowly grinding down the planet over generations, the planetary PDF should be able to soak up at least somewhere in the region of 5 million (assuming higher tech but lower competence) Orks, a figure which would skyrocket with the presence of SMs and (presumably) IG fighting too.

I like it.

A question. Does anyone know what they look like under those robes?

Or is it a case of nobody dare look. From official art it looks like they have slightly reflective eyes like a cat or a dog so we know they are at least vaguely humanoid in shape with binocular vision.

Beyond that it could be a mystery, even to the DAs.

So in order of who makes up the big original CSM

Dark Angels. 2/3 - 3/4 of Legion fall but did manage to retain some sort of nebulous command structure in the aftermath which only made them more dangerous and also gave fresh converts something to attach to in later years.

Imperial Fists. Basically everyone on Necromunda, estimated to be 1/5 - 1/4 of the entire Legion but with considerably more Imperial Army assets then the DAs.

Space Wolves. Unspecified but enough to delay them. Presumably fell to Khorne and Slaanesh or both at the same time. Mostly the old unrefined Canis Helix survivors made the core group, which made Russ more than a little uncomfortable.

Night Lords. The ones that joined to get their jollies off. Some weird Nurgel + Slaanesh influence going on here but mostly Undivided so long as Undivided lets them get their jollies off.

All the others had someone go renegade for one reason or another but not in the same numbers as the above.

Ahriman and his Tzneetchian dupes for example, although he fell for the search of knowledge rather than malicious reasons and he fell before WotB.

Lucius the Eternal still became the butt boy of Slaanesh and took a small but dangerous following with him. His long term goal is to break into the vaults of Ganymede and take the magic sword. It calls to him in an impossibly beautiful voice, sadly he he has the attention span of a small kitten and keeps getting distracted by committing atrocities.

Fabulous Dr Bile did not fall to Chaos. He fell to the Dark Eldar. He wasn't even captured by them, he sought them out and offered his services as either a warrior or a doctor in exchange for training in their flesh crafting arts. He now has an office and a very successful private practice in the Dark City.

To balance out Sigismund falling, I think we should have Ahriman stay loyal. I think his intentions have always been somewhat noble in canon, and in the Saim Hann writefaggotry posted awhile back he wins the big death race and chooses access to the Black Library as his prize, which probably wouldn't fly if he fell to Chaos. He could skirt the line of what's acceptable in his quest for knowledge like Magnus does.

I like that.

He isn't Chaos as such, people just assume that he is because he wears armour with runes on it, has a library full of deamonic lore and has lived since the days of the Great Crusade.

As Prospero burned/vanished in this continuity as well it's also possible that he is possibly looking for his home as he is the last person left alive who has actually seen it.

Although he never fell to Chaos he isn't Imperial either.

He binds deamons to do his bidding, with techniques taught to him by Magnus no less who learned them from his mother, but this has earned him no love from the Warp. Indeed the gods hate him because his rituals of binding are all take and no give. To Ahriman's way of thinking deamons should know their place and come when called.

Although there is no love between himself and the Imperium he does approve of the idea of an Imperium in theory, he just thinks the Emperor doesn't have the balls to tackle this Warp problem effectively.

How has he lived this long? Nobody knows. Astartes enhancements and longevity treatments don't get you this far.

It's also worth noting that nobody has seen inside that armour for hundreds perhaps thousands of years. It is possible, even probable, that there is only dust in there now.

Grey Knight are under orders to apprehend on sight. If apprehension is not practically possible they are authorized to terminate the entity known as Ahriman.

For all that his ultimate intentions may be noble he has done some fucked up shit.

So from this we can deduce that Necromunda was a Survivor civilization rather than a bunch of regressives uplifted by the early Imperium.

From the what I could learn from the lore, yes it is indeed a survivor civilization in this nobledark and vanilla!40k. The hives must have regressed to technology that is similar to before DAoT started but was most likely more advanced than anything Terra had during the Warlord Era. When the Imperium did rediscover them, Necromunda was more than capable of putting up a decent fight but was considered a backward hive-world compared to Crusade Era Terra. True the society didn't devolve into a bunch of tribal savages that couldn't even build factories, yet the planet was ruled by a Victorian nobility that had technology that was bearly able to travel beyond the planet's atmosphere.

The hive-cities have become a nightmare to live as people are constantly killed by industrial accidents, illnesses, or hive gangers. The processed materials in the manufactorums turned to refined metals and poisonous gasses. Toxic sludges continuously pour out of the hives into the surrounding landscape. The failure of the nobility to organize an effective garbage disposal led to rampant epidemics being broken out all the time.

Now, the hive gangs were some of the worst in the Imperium. Different gangs always fight over every single street and building in the under-hives, not caring who gets killed in the cross-fire. Hallucinogens are always bought by a minority of the population and the gangs always fight to control it or prevent the rival gang from selling it. Early on in the Crusade Era the Imperium had to deploy the Imperial Army to crush the hive gangs when the Arbites failed to do so before the WotB. Thinking the criminal problem had been dealt with, the Imperial Guard regiments deployed on Necromunda were reassigned to the front. As soon as the Imperial Army left the planet's surface, the hive gangs had already reformed into their former selves and were up to their no good misadventures.

According to the Saim-Hann writefaggotry he's been holed up in the Black Library since he got access and hasn't come out since. It's clear he's still alive, but exactly what he's been doing and when he is going to come out is unclear, since he hasn't done much beyond send the occassional note of "I'm still alive, you don't have to ask Cegorach if you need to send a search party".

The Ksons could have a saying like "yeah, and maybe Ahriman will actually help us", said in the same context as "when pigs fly".

>Mostly the old unrefined Canis Helix survivors made the core group, which made Russ more than a little uncomfortable.

According to the 1d4chan page Skyrar was pretty high up in the Space Wolf hierarchy before he went traitor. Not Bjorn level, but enough that "Russ would have called him brother".

By the way, the last thread isn't showing up on suptg for some reason, even though I know we got it archived.

They are literally Judges from the Dredd comics.

Even had the same artists.

Since the Ethereals can't reasonably be the product of Eldar meddling in Tau biology anymore, we need a new origin for how the modern Tau came about. I had one idea, but I'm not sure if it's any good.

The origin of the Tau concept of a “Greater Good” can be traced back to a man named Aun’O Da (at least that is the translation in modern Tau), otherwise known as “the Great Philosopher”. Da was born during the Mont’au, in an age roughly analogous to the late middle ages of Earth. Da was a member of the calligrapher’s guild, acting as a court stenographer to one of the petty empires that controlled much of the river basins and fertile lands of T’au. Throughout his career, Da transcribed virtually every decision made by the emperor he served under, with his own annotations on its usefulness in addition to its effects on the populace, as well as all the commands made by previous emperors.

Unfortunately, the winds of political fortune change, and the emperor that Da served under was replaced by a new ruling family. The first thing the new emperor did is order the entire court of the previous emperor to be arrested and executed, feeling that they would be too sympathetic to the old order to be trustworthy. Like many others in the court, Da fled in political exile to the mountains in the desert on the outskirts of the empire. It was there, sitting in a desert cave musing over his old writings, that Da came to a sudden realization.

(cont.)
In Da’s mind, life was full of misery, often driven by the selfish ambitions of others. Yet when people set aside their individual ambitions to aid one another, not only did Tau’s grievances against Tau decrease, but it reduced the net misery of the universe in general. Da put these ideas in writing, in what would eventually become known as the first known version of the Tau’va, or “Greater Good” (perhaps most literally “spiritual good of Tau”, “va” meaning “that which benefits the spirit”, and “Tau” meaning, well, “Tau”). Much of this manuscript has been misinterpreted in the years since it was written, both by Imperials and Tau. Da did not say that Tau should not have individual goals, or take personal enjoyment in life. However, he did stress that when duty conflicted with personal goals, one was obligated to put duty first. Nor was there any mention of Tau superiority over other races, since at that time the Tau believed they were alone in the universe.

Da’s new ideas brought him numerous eager converts. In particular, eight of his brightest disciples, all of the calligrapher’s guild, were sent in pairs in the four cardinal directions of the compass, to bring the word of the Greater Good to the general public. Da did not live to see T’au unified, he was already an old man when he came up with his ideas, but he did live long enough to see the old empire where he once served come to embrace the Tau’va. And yet the campaign continued onward. In a watershed moment in M37, two of Da’s disciples were able to broker a peace treaty between the plains barbarians and the fortress city of Fio’taun. This event essentially signified that the ideology of the Tau’va was going to become the dominant force on the planet of T’au.

(cont.)
As the Tau’va became the dominant ideology among the people of T’au, so did the students of Da become rulers in their own right. This led to the development of the traditional Tau caste system, and the taboo of fraternization between the castes. The scribes and scholars, particularly the disciples of Da, already somewhat detached from the physical world, became Ethereals. The Tau caste system was less about bringing order to the people of T’au, and more about codifying a system where the disciples of Da and their descendants were always at the top of the socio-political heap. Da would not have been happy if he could have seen this. Thankfully, the Ethereals tend to rule as some sort of bizarre combination of theocrats and philosopher-kings, utterly ascetic and with little desire to abuse their power yet haughty and loathe to social change.

However, now the revolution has come full circle. Now it is the Ethereals who represent the old establishment, rather than the bright-eyed young revolutionaries with new ideas, and they know it. It remains to be seen whether the Ethereals will be able to reform themselves to keep up with the evolving Tau Empire, or whether the Tau Empire will undergo a change into a new form of government for a new era.

Not sure how much I like the idea, feels a bit superficial to me. I'm also not a Tau expert. I like that it gives the Tau a historical figure of note before M41, especially as nobledark is all about heroic and legendary figures.

Lightbulb moment, this is why the Eldar leadership treats Eldrad the way he does. He's too openly pro-human for their tastes. IIRC, it was mentioned in a previous thread that despite being the greatest farseer alive and the savior of the Eldar race on multiple occasions, something that should have won him the accolades of the Eldar race, Eldrad is kind of treated like a weird uncle that should be respected, but not necessarily admired. Something that is especially taught to the younger generation so they don’t follow his example, as many of them see Eldrad as a mysterious maverick with enough achievements to his name to prove his badass credentials.

Even in vanilla Eldrad was pretty pro-human for an Eldar. He tried to diplomate with the Imperium (but eventually wrote them off), and even disagreed with the plans of the Cabal to let humans go extinct and take the Chaos Gods with them, actually stepped in to save Vulkan (though that was more because he thought their idea was stupid than solely moral concerns).

Make no mistake, Eldrad is not HFY. His goals are still first and foremost the survival of the Eldar. His opinion is more along the lines of "the Eldar are awesome, but humanity is pretty cool too sometimes, though not as cool as us". This doesn’t exactly endear him to the Eldar leadership (which is mostly conservative, older individuals), whose party line is cultural posturing to ensure humans know how big the cultural gap between them is. Eldrad doesn't care. He's far too old to care, and any race that's willing to go into the literal gates of Hell to give Chaos a bloody nose and competent enough to survive deserves respect. He doesn't need to posture to let people know how good he is, he knows his record more than speaks for itself.

Humans, on the other hand, love Eldrad. They see him as, basically, Space Merlin, and the first thing that comes to mind when you think of “Eldar heroes”. This does not help his case.

>Ahriman goes renegade
When the Imperium confirmed that some of the Thousand Sons had been binding daemons and that Ahriman had been spreading this knowledge after an investigation, everything took a turn for the worst. Ahriman, along with most of the Thousand Sons that knew how to bind daemons fled with their followers. Becoming a nomadic renegade SM regiment has led to Ahriman taking control then renaming the happy band of renegades to the "Daemon Busters."

The wondering Daemon Buster Marines fights off hunting Imperial forces and helping Imperial worlds in stomping daemon outbreaks. The renegades are not above interference and sabotage to ensure their survival. The recruitment for the regiment is always on-going and they hunt down any latent psykers to join them willingly or otherwise. Most defectors from the IG join the renegades as either a criminal escaping punishment or freedom seeking idealist. Those of the mortal soldiers that proved themselves in battle are sometimes given armor similar to that of the Sororitas. Just like the armor of the Sororitas, if there is no power supply for the limbs the soldier simply can't move. Worst is that if something hits the limbs under the armor, the limb movement accelerator will snap human bones like a twig.

Their motto is "Vanquish the Darkness" as said by Ahriman when he smashed a bloodthirster's head with his tome "Vocem Subjugatio Liber" thus binding the poor daemon to his will at all times.

I was wondering at that.

It is here
suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/50719277/

But it does not show up on the list like the others. Did someone fuck up the tags?

Daemon Breakers sounds better

This. I'm all for Ghost Busters references but Breaker rolls off the tongue easier.

Yea, I made the name as a joke and shouldn't be taken seriously. I knew it was going to be changed later but Daemon Braker sounds pretty nice and metal.

>Be thine world benighted by esoteric phenomena?
>And whose aid would you ask?
>Be you confronted by the unknown, and deem it horrific to look upon?
>And whose aid would you ask?

>Men of Ahriman fear no daemon!
>Men of Ahriman fear no daemon!
>Be you stricken with ghastly, coursing visions?
>And whose aid would you ask?
>Be your boudoir inhabited by wicked phantoms?
>Aye, and whose aid would you ask?
>Men of Ahriman fear no daemon!
>Men of Ahriman fear no daemon!

-the first verses of the hymn of the demon breakers

I like this idea; what if over time the Ksons' comment of "[x] the day Ahriman brings back Prospero" (owtte) starting out with optimism but eventually becoming a flippant comment at best.

>this manuscript has been misinterpreted in the years since it was written
>Da would not have been happy
>utterly ascetic and with little desire to abuse their power yet haughty and loathe to social change.
This is most definitely how I like my Tau/Greater Good.

As for the last bit - since the Tau have been assimilated into the IoM into protection, how does this factor in?

I like the idea that the progressive faction actually managed their revolution and overthrew the Ethereals (or at least severely undermined their power base), attempting to implement a looser social structure. It was during this period of reform that the Empire suddenly came under external attack; Orks, Chaos, or some of the earlier Nid hive fleets. Either way, this crippled the Tau, as their carefully planned combined-arms tactics were ruined by the logistical nightmare of a system trying to change itself mid-war. This eventually lead to the [however you say schism in Tau], where the weakened reformist (but "legitimate") government sought assistance from the IoM, while some Ethereals and other remnants of the old order retreated to the outer fringe of their territory alongside their sympathisers, forming the Farsight Enclaves.

tl;dr: Idealistic young revolutionaries get btfo by some outside power that the Big Bad Dictatorship probably would've done a better job fending off totally not inspired by the fan theory that claims that in SW's EU, Palpatine's superweapons and fuckhueg militarisation was actually in preparation to face the Yuuzhan Vong, while the New Republic failed their anal circumference roll, because if that's not nobledark I don't know what is.

Oh yeah, also Farsight has his role inverted too.

Only a proportional number of ethereals should side with farsight, a significant number of them would rather see their order diminished than go into exile and neglect the greater good. Still, the hardliners side with farsight and those that remain take part in the reforms, so the effect is maintained. The young of the ethereal caste at the time of the reforms could be some pretty interesting figures, and the reforms might lead to a massive diversification of tau political thought. They would be on the verge of a true renascence, but beset on all sides by at best domineering and often malicious influencers.

>beset on all sides by at best domineering and often malicious influencers
...I feel like the biggest challenge they're currently facing is having the shit kicked out of them - although I like the idea that they're having difficulty fending off each others' attempts to use the war to get some palpatine-esque power creep in

I was mainly meaning that if the tau start reconsidering their political order they might become the best young movers and shakers in the imperium, but their idealistic reformers might get overtaken by entrenched imperial, eldar, or traditionalist tau interests, even if they can avoid the perversions of chaos and other actively pernicious actors.

>page ten

Noooo, bump!

Fuck, is that the ghost busters theme song?

We have a craftworld orbiting Valhalla and a craftworld in the Cadian system.

I think there needs to be one that set up shop in the centre of the Tau Empire.

I'm going to suggest Mymeara as it started out on the edge of the Old Eldar Empire so its possible its just been wandering the Eastern Fringe since then.

They started out as one of the largest craftworlds because being so far from the decadent homeworlds people were more willing to listen and weren't too deep in the cocaine orgy heap.

Upon the Fall and being so remote they for some time believed they were alone and the only elder survivors.

Orks attacked them mercilessly. Phoenix Lord Irillyth of the Shadow Spectres arises and manage to hold off the orks. Irillyth leads a team to try and find more eldar survivors and gets rekt by orks soon after.

Some time later the expeditionary forces of the Great Crusade catch up with them. Quit late on in the Great Crusade as this is the Eastern Fringe.

Craftworlders scream at the humans to fuck off, they are the last bastion of civilization, the last of the eldar.

Imperials leave as requested. Some months later a joint detachment of Saim-Hann and Bail-Tan make contact properly on behalf of the young Imperium. They had tears of joy, they were not alone in the night.

Next time the orks came calling they had friends.

Why are they now perched in the middle of Tau space? They like the Tau. They feel vibrant.

Its meme time!

>Perturbato: "Now look at this fortress. That I just built. When you see Dorn/When I say go. Be ready to fortify. Now go!" *they build a wall around 'Merika* "BUILD IT AROUND DORN NOT AMERICA! *sigh* Let's try something else."

>Lorgar: "Now look and see, here's the deal. They'll slip and slide on these copies of the Lectito Divinitatus! Hahahaha!" *they slip and slide and read Robot Grilyman's Codex* "WHAT ARE YOU DOING!?"

Are Hive Worlds still polluted and horrible to live in?

Yes, but not to quite the same extent.

The Imperial era ones are derived from Perty's genius designed hives on Old Earth and the pre-Imperial ones had substantial work done on them.

It's still quite shit because 10,000+ years of war economy will do that but it's out of necessity this time rather than indifference.

Bumping with laughing tau

You are not done yet until you cover the whole song.
You will be awarded with a compliment upon completing this task.
Failure to comply will result in no noticeable consequences.

IIRC, the majority of the Ethereals and the Tau empire actually were pro-Imperium during the schism, with the Farsight Enclaves walking off because they thought the Imperium's fancy new ideas were having a bad effect on the idea of the Greater Good. The Ethereal's problem is they want change, but it's hard to change when the system you want to change to no longer guarantees you a position of authority.

I like your Ahriman comment idea.

I mean the deposed/diminished traditionalist Ethereals leading the Farsight Enclaves in their exile; clinging to their interpretation of the Greater Good that their old order was built around. The new young revolutionaries, Ethereal or not, were the ones who were so pro Imperium.

>Eldrad will spend the number night with Sister Jubblowski the day Ahriman brings back Prospero. - Abbess Ephrael Stern

It works.

I have no idea where number came from

Fucking autocorrect.

Where would commander Shadowsun fit in the Reformist - Traditionalist spectrum?

He's a diehard fire caste general that incessantly reminds the ethereals of their noble responsibility to be surly, high handed, self sacrificing philosopher kings. He's a die hard traditionalist that might even step above his station to hold ethereals to his idealized vision of traditional tau society, and pressure from him has influenced the enclave ethereals to conform to this vision of "High Tau'va". The ethereals in the farsight enclave are becoming more philosophical, abstract, and saintly in bearing, and rely increasingly on farsight and his fire warriors to interact with the enclave's people. Farsight has influence over the ethereals that goes way beyond tradition, but this is totally lost on him, and he seeks to do the ethereals will even as he cajoles them towards greater mysticism and the nobility he already sees in them. For their part the ethereals recognize Farsight's prominence, but say that he is reminding them of their duties as a caste, as he ought to. They're happy to have a major fire caste figure affirming their reactionary feelings towards the reforms, and are beginning to believe in his rosy picture of tau traditional society.

Where should Shadowsun come into this? I was thinking she could be one of the ethereal reformers here, or another fire caste with contact experience with imperial culture and the wider galaxy.

How powerful should the Farsight/Traditionalist Enclave be?

A dozen or a hundred worlds?

According to what we have on the 1d4chan page, Shadowsun was a good friend of Farsight. Then Farsight did something during the Tau civil war that made Shadowsun swear a blood oath against him.

Probably did something so grievous that in Shadowsun's opinion Farsight has no moral justification in claiming that he's doing what's right, like escalating the tension between the two factions into outright violence and the first shots of the Tau Civil War. Farsight saw it as necessary and justified because the reformists weren't letting the traditionalists practice the Tau'va the way they wanted to. Shadowsun called bullshit, his actions led to Tau killing Tau and in her mind this was an act of barbarity just asking for the Mon'tau to return.

The two of them probably had some sort of forbidden feelings for one another, but after that moment their relationship changed to that special feeling of hate and betrayal you can only have for someone you once loved.

Didn't Shadowsun swear a blood oath or something against Farsight in canon? What was the reason there?

Wouldn't Sigismund be more likely to fall to Khorne than Nurgle? All full of RAGE and whatnot? Though other than that I like the ideas for the Battle of Necromunda so far.

By the way, I know we have established what the Mechanicus’ opinion is on humans using alien technology (i.e., they’ll either look the other way as long as it’s not flagrant or go REEEE), but what is their opinion on aliens using human technology? It’s not an issue with the Eldar because the Eldar mostly use their own stuff, but what about groups like the Interex, Squats, or Tau, which while not dependent on the AdMech can actually benefit from using AdMech stuff (and in some cases include significant numbers of humans). Even though they control 80-90% of the manufacturing in the Imperium, the AdMech can't play as stubbornly in this timeline (or at least have to play a little nicer/subtler) because unlike vanilla 40k they have competition and are no longer a tech monopoly. If the Mechanicus are too ridiculous, some will go “let the AdMech sit in their tech-monasteries, we’ll go to the Demiurge or Squats”. This may not work for a hive or agri-world that is totally dependent on AdMech supplies, but any Survivor civilizations or semi-autonomous xenos that have their own manufacturing capabilities will balk at not being allowed to make their own stuff anymore, especially since the AdMech are nominally equals in the Imperium’s political structure as Age of Strife survivors.

I’m not even sure the AdMech have a reason to hate xenos using human technology anymore. In vanilla, hatred of xenos technology seems to be something the AdMech picked up from the rest of the Imperium (as part of the whole “fear the xenos line”) despite their religious beliefs otherwise being very different. Before that, they seemed to be kind of equal-opportunity despisers. Yes, they thought they were the only people holy enough to handle and manufacture technology, but they didn’t care if the person mucking around with what the AdMech thought they shouldn’t was human or xenos.

(cont.)

I can see the Mechanicus having a very real fear of a group like the Squats reverse engineering their stuff (as well as being fanatical over STC printouts, which like holy relics they see as theirs no matter where they are found), but I can also see them pointing to other semi-autonomous factions using their stuff as a point of pride. Like “yes, we’re so awesome that even other civilized people recognize our stuff as superior” or “we are bringing civilization to these poor backwards xenos races”. It would also explain why the AdMech are allowing very preliminary research into wraithbone hybrid tech (at the very least in M40-41, when shit is getting so desperate that the AdMech is getting willing to bend or break a lot of their old rules because the old ways are simply not enough).

(cont., because character limit is a pain in the ass)

The best I could come up with is that the AdMech would love to be the tech monopolists of the galaxy. They want to innovate and advance to the point that all the other factions, the Interex, the Squats, the Tau, the Colchians, the Demiurge, even the Eldar, go to them for tech support. They want the entire Imperium to look at them and go “See those guys. They are the pinnacle of technological wisdom”. They want to bring technology to the masses, but they want the masses’ interpretation and use of that technology to be dictated on the AdMech’s terms. The problem is that the AdMech can’t advance very quickly because the lower echelons are so indoctrinated and conservative they can’t or won’t think outside the box, and the upper ranks, who how technology really works, would love to innovate but are terrified to do so because they’re always keeping one eye on the Void Dragon looking over their shoulder. So they have to make do with STC printouts (making them even more rabid about them) and the few bits of innovation that they have sufficiently vetted to consider “safe”. They’re running into the same issue that Martin Luther ran into when he translated the Bible but freaked out over people interpreting it differently than him: you can have control or freedom of thought, not both.

>What about regular IG during the Age of Apostasy?
With Vandire still doing the same shit that he did in vanilla!40k, Oscar comes back from his vacation/inspection tour of the Imperium. Oscar and Isha would be one of the first to denounce the self-proclaimed God-Emperor Vandire. This is where Vandire would use the Imperial Army to hunt down then kill Oscar and Isha while the SMs would see to it that Vandire's head is on a spike. Sebastian Thor was basically a nobody from the mundane Imperial world of Dimmamar, where he taught anti-Warpcraft classes. This is where he led a revolt after finding out that Vandire ordered all ten-year-old kids to be captured from an Imperial world when that world failed to build enough titanic statues of Vandire.

The revolt in Dimmamar not only didn't get crushed but the majority of the Guardsmen send to kill him joined his cause. The Lord-Governor himself actually supported Thor. After hearing the news of the revolt, Vandire was angered that this was the first time the civilian population organized such a thing. At the time of the revolt, SMs and the Imperial Army were already killing each other. The SM and some Craftworlds following the orders of Oscar and Isha attempted to rebel. The rebel forces didn't have the logistics nor the fleet to simply go straight to Terra then kill Vandire. Some Craftworlds thought they could easily manipulate the clearly insane Vandire thus stayed loyal, even going so far as to arrange Eldar bodyguards and advisors for Vandire. Almost all of the Imperial Army answered directly to Vandire as they swore an oath to serve the Golden Throne and not to Oscar/Isha nor the Imperium.

Oscar and Isha learning of the fleet despatched to burn Dimmamar, wanted to protect this single hope of a popular uprising to help the rebellion. In a Warpstorm that was known as "Imperium's Warth", every ship in that fleet were destroyed by the combined Warpcraft of Oscar and Isha.

>Some craftworlds side with Vandire against Isha
>IG completely grab idiot ball and try to hunt down biggest living hero of mankind.

I get the manipulation part, but I have a hard time seeing even the most demagogued Imperial Guardsman hunting down the Steward without questioning things.

I can see Vandire ordering the Imperial Army to capture the Steward and Isha once they pop back up, but part of the reason the Age of Apostasy happened is that no one could get a hold of them for 150 years, so no one could ask them for a second opinion when Vandire got his Spess Stalin on.

If the battle lines during the Great Civil War were that sharply drawn between IG and SMs, it almost seems like the Age of Apostasy would have ended up like the Horus Heresy. SMs would never trust IG again because as a whole they took the bait, and IG would never trust SMs again because they saw how easy they turned (in their mind) on the Imperium. But then again if the battle lines were more evenly drawn between marines and army, we just get the Horus Heresy with less primarchs.

Also Sebastian Thor was an Inquisitor in this timeline.

(cont.)
Thor led the angry crowd of the starving, poor, religious, and atheist citizens from various worlds of the local Sub-Sector to support the rebellion. The merry band of angry citizens was causing mass defection and surrender of Guardsmen as they jump from one world to another. The Imperial Navy didn't care to listen to any so-called rebel propaganda and just shot any ships thought to be carrying many rebel sympathizers.

Vandire had declared the rebellion to be an "Apostasy" and that the rebels were "blasphemers". What started to happen was that Thor began to order his followers to infiltrate Imperial Navy ships then to rally support for the rebellion that was endorsed by the founders of the Imperium. The Imperial Navy was splintered on varying degrees of rebellion as a few stayed loyal whilst others refused to fight or just surrender to rebels, and some opened fired on loyalist ships in the middle of battle. The rebellion made their way to Terra as they simply brushed aside token resistance or grew as more of the Imperial Army defected. On Terra, the Imperial Fist was fighting the Imperial Army for control of the planet when the main body of the rebellion arrived.

Giving up hope of victory, most of the Guardsmen outside of the Palance just surrendered or stepped aside when the rebels marched from the landing pads to the Palance. Thor organized to storm the Palance with his bodyguards known as the "Star Sisters", who are made up of an elite all-female warrior secret society from a religious school. Any SMs planetside did try to help Thor but even their efforts were not enough to punch through the first layer of defenses.The Imperial Palance was in such disrepair that most of the unmanned rooms were natural death traps. Loyalist guardsmen had turned the hallways to mazes and doors to boobytraps. SMs would advance only to be fired in the back by loyalist Eldar or 30 rebel Guardsmen being pinned by a loyalist heavy stubber team

>Sebastian Thor was an Inquisitor in this timeline
Fug forgot that.
>SMs would never trust IG again
That's the point, this is why later on loyalist SMs and Guardsmen fight for the stupidest of reasons. For example a SM regiment fight the IG to steal relics from a system.
>we just get the Horus Heresy with less primarchs
The difference is that on land the SMs basically curbstomp the Imperial Army while the Imperial Navy making the SMs directly attacking Terra impossible.

>nobledark magpies
"oh foR FUCKS SAKE"
t. everyone