What sounds better?

To be Honest, 40k isn't for anybody anymore. Pretentious and Autistic Writers, Increasingly shitty Lore, Overpricing so bad that even the slightest improvement makes people want to get down on their knees and suck. Honestly I think most of Veeky Forums only stays interested in 40k in remeberence to what it once was and what it could have been.

Nice quads.
Yeah, IG overall fits with the Soviets pretty well.
Big numbers, varying in quality, rigid doctrine.

and the 40k general is pretty shit.

Its gonna get to a point where people will think of their own versions of 40k and see who has the better ideas.

Didn't I just see you in another thread? Where about four anons told you, "That's not really a thing in 40k"?

Anyway, to answer your question, that's not really a thing in 40k. The special forces of the Imperium are seven foot tall knights with gyrojet rifles and chainsaw swords. Maybe there'd be a rogue trader out there whose private armsmen are more tacticool tango down types, but the closest thing you'll find in the main stream really is the Last Chancers or Gaunt's Ghosts.

>Last Chancers or Gaunt's Ghosts

If OP had to choose between those hes better with Infinity

You have regiments of perhistoric head hunters and cyberpunk elite operators.
Same with the officers.

And then you have various kinds of regiments, from blue navy to fortress troops, including things that real armies haven't even though of yet (like the first membranes). Psy Ops won't be the same if it's done by the head hunters or the chromed and wired tacticool cops.

Inquisitorial stormtroopers are as tacticool as you can go.
Also bolters aren't gyrojets since they have an initial charge to propel them. It's more of a RAP, really.

Chancers are just Dirty Dozen, not that tactical. Stormtroopers would fit the role of operators better if GW knew something about war.

Which is what we've been telling him.

Yeah but the only faction that appeals to me is Ariadna 40k has the base for cool shit but they waste it.

40k to me looks cool and I like the setting

If chancers are the Dirty Dozen, who are Kelly's Heroes?

If you're looking for gritty and tacticool, you might have to look into alternative wargames. I'm sure I've heard about some modern day operator games while skimming /awg/.

It Depends On The Regiment.

There is always a divide in the IG community over this shit.

People who say GTFO and let the IG stay the same since "reasons" and then bring up the Gaunts Ghosts and other shit. In reality those books barely scratch the operator itch people want in 40k.

You know what I fucking love the Raptors they are what Space marines should actual special forces of the imperium to bad they get fucked same goes for the Elysians.

but I dont like Table top I play the RPGs I mean I was tempted to make a scion army but that shit is to expensive and time consuming.

I could do Infinity but same over there I dont have the time for that shit.

Well, at least you have a bunch of different assassins for your lone wolf big time opr8or fantasies.

>but they waste it.

Can't we for once have something that isn't more of the same tacticool spunkgargleweewee?

Watch Black Adder Goes Forth, and then go read some 2000AD stuff (if you see a Shakaranon he can hook you up, might be hanging out in /co/) and you'll get a good feeling for the guard.

You mean the assassins that are in their own crazier than any space marine story out there?

This.
Most of the big named regiments of a theater they excel in, Catachans for sneaky jungle/forest ops, Elysians for air cav, Krieg for sieges, Tallarn for desert ops, Vahallans for winter.
They have the basic competence plus a specialty. Stormtroopers are the overall operators, and have the casualty count to represent that.

Really you actually think if I read Rouge Trooper again that it stop me from wanting actual tactical soldiers in 40k?

You know an IG death watch sounds kinda cool if the DW is where all the space marines get the cool toys why cant we have some for the IG?

If you avoid the ones that explode on death, the rest are pretty operator. But of the more secret agent man variety.

Yeah, but cranked up to 11. Order 227 wasn't used nearly as much as pop culture would have you believe, and some soviet commanders were genius.

so you want to play gland war veterans?

I personally think the scions should be "Tacticool" in the sense of the shit they get basically "call of duty" in space.

That way both sides of this argument with be happy you got tacticool operators with all these gadgets and tactics but isant super realistic and they still do the usual 40k insaneness.

Happy?

Fund it

THIS

I was to much of an autist to explain what I wanted but this is what I meant holy shit.

Thanks sorry I was retarded

...

tactical guardsmen are more fun to play as .

Guardsmen getting killed in droves is more fun to command.

it mostly comes down to the scope of whatever you are are doing.

>a friction of people

This man knows the rules of Venery.

It really depends on the scenario and the regiment in question. 40k has a hardon for siege warfare (see: Vraks, Armageddon, Cadia), which as a rule doesn't offer much opportunity for operating operationally. You get hardcore shit like Hive Helsreach, but as a rule siege warfare is a meat grinder, which is where your Death Korps and Steel Legion type regiments work.

Now, on the other side of that, you've also got high-mobility and combined arms regiments like the Tallarn Desert Raiders and Elysian Drop Troops, who do maneuver warfare and operator shit (not to mention the Catachans, who are just MACV-SOG/Green Berets in space).

This what I always thought happened. The IG units like squads and fire teams were super tactical.

But from the commanders perspective, a whole platoon might just show up as a single blip on their radar.

So you end up with maybe 4 or 5 blips attacking a town, which translates to 400-600 soldiers tactically assulting the target; but because there are so many of them, it almost seems like it is just a wave of troops marching on the enemy.

Kinda like the chinese in the Korean war. So numerous, that the Americans initially thought of them as human wave attacks, but they had pretty decent tactics.

I would really like a story with somebody like General Melchett as the point of view. The soldiers are all displayed as moronic backworlders who die in waves just to move the
tea cabinet 5 inches toward the enemies capitol.

>"The imperium doesnt do diversity"

This depends entirely on what someone is trying to be diverse about.
The imperium has hard rules on some subjects (IE "no xenos, no heretics, no daemons, follow imperial law") but besides that it inevitably has to leave room for diversity. The sheer number of different imperial guard regiments should make that slap in the face obvious.

>Tacticool Guard actually getting shit done behind the scenes and using actual tactics to kill xenos and heretics?
Cadians already exist.

Also any IG commander obsessed with preserving the lives of his soldiers should be shot for wasting time. If there is anything the IG has in abundance it is people. If you have a war involving a million guardsmen, lose a quarter of them, but end the war in three months while another commander loses 25,000 but ends the war in six months than the first commander accomplished more as he allowed 750,000 soldiers to spend three months fighting on other fronts while the other commander bogged them down in a war that could have already ended.

Besides WW1 on steroids is a much better theme than "tactical operators #61415416847." Use 50,000 guns to level entire mountains over the course of a month of perpetual bombardment. Use a million soldiers in a grand offensive to keep assaulting the enemy until they run out of ammunition. Use tanks weighing close to a thousand tons to simply ignore the heaviest weapons the enemy can bring to bare.

Even if you compare the Soviet army in 1941 to 1945 you'll see pretty big differences.

This There's no reason both can't exist. There's even sort of a divide in tabletop with standard guard and Stormtroopers as a specialist force. Granted, stormtroopers as a codex aren't really tactical or amazing, but it's there.

I'd suggest playing Killteam with scions if you wanted something cheaper and less time consuming. Killteam is basically the tacticool level anyway, and you'd only need a handful of squads for that low point level.

Steel legion are mechanized infantry, they cannot be farther from being siege warfare specialists.

On that note, being "operator" is retarded from the perspective of an entire war. Even ignoring the material and logistical aspects of warfare (which are much more important than the actual warfare) infantry being operators is of strategically near zero importance in a war. You could switch assault rifles with bolt action rifles in modern militaries and they would still function more or less just as effectively, but replace modern artillery or tanks with WW2 artillery or tanks and your military is worthless. Modern warfare is primarily about strategic mobility and firepower, the ability of your army to move fast, keep moving, and blow up anything in your way.

The first gulf war wasn't won by operators assassinating Saddam Hussein, it was won by a massive ground offensive in which tanks and IFVs smashed the Iraqi army which was finished off by air support. WW2 wasn't won by paratroopers dropping into Berlin or SAS capturing beaches alone, it was won through massive offensives like operation Bagration and Overlord. If you want a "realistic" Imperial Guard regiment just model them after existing regiments like Steel Legion or Kriegers since they are much closer to actual military forces in terms of equipment and doctrine than the cast of Call of Duty games.

>You could switch assault rifles with bolt action rifles in modern militaries and they would still function more or less just as effectively
No, no they would not. A bolt-action rifle is objectively inferior to an assault rifle for general combat use because of the versatility and relative ease of use offered by the assault rifle. A bolt-action rifle has one firing mode. Most assault rifles have two, and many have more than that. Plus, most assault rifles allow for a great deal of customization, allowing the soldiers to modify their rifles in the field to adapt to the situation at hand.
>Modern warfare is primarily about strategic mobility and firepower, the ability of your army to move fast, keep moving, and blow up anything in your way.
A modern military cannot operate on pure firepower alone. They need intelligence to know where to kick ass, and a lot of the time that involves some spec-ops group going in a knocking heads together until they find what they're looking for.
>The first gulf war wasn't won by operators assassinating Saddam Hussein, it was won by a massive ground offensive in which tanks and IFVs smashed the Iraqi army which was finished off by air support.
True, but no one ever said that there should only be special-forces types in the Imperial Guard. Snake eaters have certain uses in a war, and grunts have their own. There's the scalpel and the machete, so to speak. We can have Cadians and Elysians, both with their own role to play.
>WW2 wasn't won by paratroopers dropping into Berlin or SAS capturing beaches alone, it was won through massive offensives like operation Bagration and Overlord.
The key word there is ALONE. The SAS (and local resistance for that matter) played a critical role in the Western front all throughout the war, and while they couldn't have assaulted and held German positions, they weren't supposed to. All they were supposed to do is lead the way for the everyday soldiers.

He just spread the old "infantry wins firefights, tanks win battles and artillery wins wars" saying in a few paragraphs. No need to get your grunt panties in a twist.

I'm reasonably certain you don't know how armies work.

>wants tacticool
>doesn't like Infinity

What the actual fuck?

>Fans

Which fans? Most IG fans are not playing human wave mobs for logistical reasons if nothing else. And plenty of people prefer veteran based lists.

I like infinity I meant but only Ariadna

Most of Infinity is sci-fi tacticool, maybe he wants modern tacticool which only 1 or 2 Infinity factions have.

Yeah, I'm still pretty confused. Literally the entire game is operators operating operationally. That's it. That's the whole system. It's what it's built for. It's tacticool from toes to tip.

So you either want something a LOT more specific than 'tactical operators' or you don't know what you want.

The fire-power advantage an assault rifle offers is massive, it actually makes quite a big difference.

The Germans studies this in WW2, they found it made units equipped with them much more effective.

>No need to get your grunt panties in a twist.
So, since you decided to resort to pejoratives instead of rationally refuting my arguments, I can only assume one of a few things. Either A) you were capable of refuting my arguments, but decided not to, in which case you consent to the truth of my points or B) you were incapable of refuting my arguments and resorted to petty insults for whatever reason.

Because of the somewhat defensive nature of you comment, I do have to wonder whether or not you're attempting to post as a third party in order to lend more credibility to a purely ad hominem assertion. Of course, I have no evidence to support this suspicion, but I'd like to think it's reasonable.

The Valhallans are pretty good. I say Gaunt's Tanith 1st & only are similarly elite.

Im a third party that doesnt want to go into an in-depth argument, and my argument supported by the pic, was that in the grand scale of war, the infantry's firepower isnt THAT important. And the last sentence was a joke, because go and try telling an infantryman that hes not the hottest shit in the world. MUH BUUTS ON THE GROUND, THEY DO THE FLYING WE DO THE DYING and so on.

Fair enough. Maybe I was the one getting defensive.

have you been living under a rock?

stormtroopers are literally the tacticool IG's since the beginning of 40k

it's like asking if there should only be Riflemen or Special Forces in the military

They have both, and they need both. Stormtroopers are a thing. And the entire faction can't be operators, because then from a game design standpoint they would have to be smaller in order to balance their skill, and then you realize you just made the IG into fucking Tau.

This guy gets it

What if I also say

I dont like table top gaming

Then you're retarded?

"I'm going to complain about a specific part of a specific tabletop game even though I don't like tabletop gaming."

I sort of meant in lore to but ehhh