What went wrong?

>tfw your splinter faction is more successful than you are

Most people don't understand the moaning until they go to write a list themselves.

The failings of the codex become quite apparent at that point.

come on user don't you like fliers.

literally just fliers.

How about the nigh unavailable +2 saves huh

You like that

Worthless overpriced core units like carnifexes? Is that more your shit?

don't forget that Tyranid Warriors are literally useless.

Fucking great 10/10 codex.

Gotta love the large array of monstrous creatures that are utter garbage compared to other race's monstrous creatures.

Cheap rending is good while the fact that the list for pure nids has only a few good units.Flygrants, venomthropes, malanthropes,Zoanthropes are good. Tervigon and Exocrine are ok. Termagants are filler and cheap.

>tervigon
>ok

>termagants
>cheap.

I miss invulnerable saves. And 'nids should have templates somewhere.

Also, something something warriors should be competitive with marines.

Does GW sell wings yet? Because when they made fliers viable, they didn't. They barely sold Gargoyles.

More of a problem with tau than tyranids.
Wish i could prank every tau player from the face of the earth.

I hope he gets to do the next Tau and Eldar update.

More of a problem with the codex being written by someone that clearly hates the race imo

Well, in the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

This. Why the FUCK would you let someone write rules for something they hate? Was it Kirby's last "fuck you" at the players?

More like GW's "fuck you" at the nid players who bought 3rd party spores.

...

who knows, nids just have gotten shit on by the Cruddexes.

like 5th was bad but it had some cool shit

but then MUH 3RD PARTY MODELS happened and they literally lost a number of neat things for fucking PYROVORES.

heh.

It is a monstrous creature that makes little dudes at an ok point range. It does it job well but could go down a few more points or get some better stats. termagants are not that many points as well

Termagants aren't even worth the 4 pts per model they're so fucking useless on the table, and Tervigons are living bombs within your swarm that kill you, and are 100% RNG reliant.

i miss without number.

Yea they should be the price of conscripts for the imperial guard or cheaper

they cost more than conscripts and are worse at shooting

its crazy.

They should be 2 pts per model really

we used to pay 7 pts per model for Without Number Termagaunts back in 4th ed and they were great.

True but they don't need to kill anything, they just need to die in the way.

actually they were 9 pointsand they were great because they were garunteed value and even if an entire brood got wiped the fuck out in a turn, they could come back

You could have a brood of 32 gaunts get wiped and come back 3-4 times in a game, it was amazing

They were also helped by the fact that the instinctive behavior rules were good and warriors were relatively ok at their jobs (completely powercreeped to worthlessness now though.)

I'll fix Tyranids with three things

>All synapse providing creatures are immune to instant death
>Creatures within synapse get an extra d6 of movespeed
>Synapse providers get an extra d6 of movespeed if 12 or more synapse receivers are in range

Problem solved, warriors don't get instantly ded and gaunts can get close to the enemy while keeping synapse.

i'll do you one better

>4th edition instinctive behavior rules

>no Martian laser beams
>Genestealers don't facerape
At least suck some energy if you're not impregnating your enemies.

Tyranids were simplified in concept and execution, as well as had far too many Hive Fleets added in a vain attempt to offer a sense of DOOM.

Thematically the Tyranids were at their best when the only recorded Hive Fleets were Behemoth, Kraken, and Leviathan. Each individual fleet felt threatening, most especially Leviathan (especially with the implication that the prior two were nothing more than vanguard / outriders, with Leviathan an actual incursion / fleet in full). Not only because of the sense of dread provided, but because they came from an era wherein the Tyranids were explicitly driven by a will that belonged something much greater than a simple beast.

Those days are gone now. Tyranids are barely anything more than mindless beasts with the odd near-sapient Hive Tyrant and a Hive Mind whose mental gates might as well be a revolving door. Forget doubling and tripling down on "lol throw more bugs at it until its dead", we're up to quadrupling of such methods being their pinnacle with basic military tactics the exception instead of the norm. Hive Fleets are chewed up and spat out in systems throughout the galaxy, the successful fleets' paths of carnage reduced to simple statistics. Their adaptive talents that allowed them to eat one salvo of virus bombs only to spit them back (with improvements) the next time around has almost entirely been forgotten in half the fluff, likewise their capability to learn and avoid falling for the same blunders multiple times.

Basically they became Generic Space Dino-Bugs in all of the worst possible ways.

pretty much this yeah

Carnifexii?

I run fucking SHRIKES, get on my BAD

>he runs Shrikes

M A D M A N

>Genestealers don't facerape
they don't?

I will never forget my first and only experience with shrikes.

I was but a wee lad back in the days of 6th edition, naive to the evil of this world.

I had spent weeks converting custom shrikes from my warrior boxes. 3rd party wings, converted rending claws into talons, molded them into action poses etc

I was so excited to see them tear shit up in melee with their boneswords.

I put them on the table and as soon as they left cover my "friends" long fangs shot a few missiles at them and just like that they were but dust in the wind...

Now they just collect dust in the bottom of my bits box.

R.I.P in peace shrikes. I never knew ye.

RIP ;_;7

when they dropped zoats

What was their swansong

I spent similar amounts of effort on mine, brother.

youtu.be/5i7qZxICwgQ

I have 13 beautiful carnifexii that haven't seen the light of day in 5 years.

The game has changed a lot since 4th Ed

>Their adaptive talents that allowed them to eat one salvo of virus bombs only to spit them back (with improvements) the next time around has almost entirely been forgotten in half the fluff, likewise their capability to learn and avoid falling for the same blunders multiple times.
>t. didn't read any of the shield of baal campaign books

Tyranids out adapted the imperium and the weird environments of the planets they fought on in a matter of a day. they then spent the next 2 days absolutely BTFOing the Cadians and the Sisters of battle, and completely destroyed a very well guarded imperial system. It took the blood angels and their successors working with the Necrons and their super weapon to finally defeat that swarm. The fluff specifically mentions that the hive is learning and adapting and is far more dangerous now than it was in the wars against the ultramarines or ichor iv.
>le tau out adapted the tyranids maymay
The tau, decades ago, kept up with the tyranids long enough for the imperial guard fleet to wipe out the hive ships and prevent the tyranids from sending in massed reinforcements and newly adapted beasts. The swarms adaptive capabilities are much better now, the tau would be absolutely fucked

>a monobuild works
>CODEX IS OK GUYZ

This is the shit mentality that brought us to the shitshow we are all in today.

Vetock and Kelly will never allow him to ruin their pet armies.

warpshadow.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=165311#p165311
>For whatever it`s worth Phil also had a strong hand in the development of this dex. So blame both of them if you like...

warpshadow.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=205724#p205724
>I talked a lot with people including Phil Kelly himself about my thoughts of the codex and I was interested how and why it was so badly written. Everybody at GW knows that codex tyranids was bad - they don't deny it which I haven't expected. When I talked to Phil at Games Day Germany he told me the following:

>_________________________________________

>ME (after some random chat about nids) : Can I ask you about the overall acceptance of the latest codex?

>PHIL: Yeah I know what comes now
>ME: No I dont wanna bash I am just curious about what thoughts were behind the codex. I know many people bash it and I heard sales went down extremely,too. For example the Pyrovore is a unit many people don't see viable.
>PHIL: Yeah I know - and I can tell you that the people at GW know about this. The problem is this: Nids in 4th were pretty strong and many people thought they were way to powerful. Nidzilla and these times upset many players because they felt they had no chance against a tyranid army. When the 5th edition codex came around we tried to fix this issue. The so often talked about balance is the hardest job at GW. Its like a pendulum. We try to fix stuff but sometimes the pendulum goes to far to one side, making an army a little bit to strong or vice versa. All we can do is playtest but there are just to many combos, gear etc. We have no time checking all of them no matter how often we play. Sometimes this is ok but sometimes the result are super hard combos with have not foreseen. To crazy stuff will be dealt with via an FAQ but you know this sometimes takes a while.

>ME: Wow Phil I have to say I am speechless. I haven't expected that much insight. Could you tell me anything about the new planned codex? I know you can't say much.

>PHIL: Yeah, I can't comment to much but I can tell you this: We are working on it and we want to get that pendulum back in the middle!
;^)

warpshadow.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=205737#p205737
>thanks for posting that ! I was asked to offer feedback during the development of the last codex. With hindsight that has been a rather frustrating experience because I did catch quite a few of the problems (still got the notes), but my advice wasn`t very influential in the end.
>Oh, how I fought to get the Lictor back into fighting shape...(and obviously I suggested calling the "Tyrannofex" an "Exocrine" - and look what`s hatching now).
>Never got the chance to talk to Phil about that though, so it is very interesting to hear what he said...

Is there something Kelly wrote that had no balance problems in a way or another?

Conscripts- bs2
Termaguants- bs3

Yet another victim complex tyranid player

They took away all there fucking options
The previous codex had a great list of fun mutations you could give your models new one has fuck all.

Its interesting because they talk about balancing each faction and giving them strengths and weaknesses, but its really clear some factions are favorited moreso than others which is to be expected but not by such a massive margin. So many armies have cheap access to powerful weapons which fire at long ranges

What should really be done is allow tyranid players to customize their models like 4th ed allowed. Let us give our carnifexs 2+ saves at 20-30pts, give it more toughness or strength at a price. If we want to spend 5 pts on Without Number then that's our issue.

At least they have that one story about the single nid i forget the type of sending that leader crazy by killing his guards every night.

Not that user, but did you read the Fall of Shadowbrink story in 6th? That was a Tyranid story done right.
Tyranids face opposition against daemons, so they adapt and evolve to fight the enemy on their terms

Every codex went through this though.
That part isn't specific to tyranids.

And to be fair, most of those lists were fairly pointless gameplay wise as most of their options were never taken.
But they gave some flavour to codex, even if those options were never taken, they were there.
They tried to sacrifice this illusion of choice to streamlined the game and facilitate balance, but fail to deliver.
Illusions are nice sometime.

>Illusions are nice sometime
This

I think there are several problems with nids, but the biggest problem is that other armies have thematic special rules which let them ignore fundamental rules in the game, and tyranids have the instinctive behavior tax which is almost exclusively negative.

The best tyranid units are, unsurprisingly, units which are flying, provide synapse or don't need it to use their gimmick (mawlocs). Otherwise there just isn't synergy. Tau can move all over the place and have multiple units shoot overwatch, SM have ATSKNF which makes assault fucking irritating and irrelevant, IG can ignore cover and ID monstrous creatures with beast-hunter shells, and then there's rerollable armor and jink saves, and demons and GSC can vomit free units--an ability nids used well in 6th but tervigon were nerfed because "muh spess mareens lost one game bawww". That Phil Kelly interview really illustrates how whiny fat autistocrats can get an army nerfed, and it's pretty sad.

Also tyranid WL traits fucking suck (thank goodness you don't have to use them), not being able to use other psychic disciplines when your powers are just "pretty okay" sucks, the named HQs are too expensive, the drop pods don't provide synapse and/or aren't assault pods and despite being MCs can't fire 360 degrees thanks to the FAQ, and MC ICs can't join other units now thanks to the FAQ, effectively deleting tyrant guard special rules (RAW).

Anyway, I could go on and on, but TLDR:
basically I blame whiny fats who have no perception of what constitutes a broken rule, poor rules writing, and a bad 7th ed assault phase.

Jesus fuck marine players. And it goes the other way around too. Shit too powerful is dismissed saying "come one there is grav for that"

As orks had grav.

Oh and nid firing range...holy fuck is it short. One of the best ranged weapons is the bio-plasma cannon on every 'nid LoW (except the scythed heirodule), so you have to spend hundreds of points just to get that 72"--something many armies can obtain cheaply, and the only LoW worth taking is the Harridan, which is an FGC so it doesn't need the range anyway.

Piece of shit Tyranid fanboys I sear to god.

>The tau, decades ago, kept up with the tyranids long enough for the imperial guard fleet to wipe out the hive ships and prevent the tyranids from sending in massed reinforcements and newly adapted beasts. The swarms adaptive capabilities are much better now, the tau would be absolutely fucked

Don't lie.

Both Imperials and Tau worked together to defeat the Tyranids ON THE GROUND. Equally. It wasn't all the Imperial credit. In fact, it was all the Tau credit since the Tau figured out the weakness of Gorgon's adaptation. The tides of the war were already turned on the Tyranids before the Imperials arrived. The imperials prevented nothing, you bitch. The text just says that the combined forces of Imperials and Tau were too much for Gorgon to adapt against.

We have the text with us, motherfucker, it easy to fact check you. So why do you lie like this? Why do you do this? What's your agenda? Do you hotglue your fexes?

>The swarms adaptive capabilities are much better now, the tau would be absolutely fucked

No, it ain't. Gorgon was unique it ins super adaptive abilities. If the Tau face any Hive Fleet, Leviathan, Behemoth, Kraken, etc, the Tau will out-tech much much easily.

Hot!

Source?

Lol "piece of shit tyranid fanboys". I'm not the guy you're replying to, but calm the fuck down. As I understand it, Tau introduced a virus that gave nids an evolutionary dead-end, is that correct? Seems like Tau and Necrons are pretty savage nid adversaries.

>vomit free units
That's really the most thematically appropriate gimmick for tyranids, "shot them now or be swarmed."
Instead, it's tyranids that are pressed by time, and that's completely backward.
I'm even relatively ok with instinctive behaviours being punishing, but tyranids should have multiple methods of reinforcements forcing the hands of their opponents.

One of the Tyranids biggest weaknesses has always been a lacking in the long range department with high AP weapons. Its meant to be offset by the fact we are deadly in melee, but you need to get there and still be in a condition to fight which isn't happening. Some decent firepower would help this. I'm not expecting we get las cannon strength weapons, but would it be too much to ask for the Exocrine to have a 36' range, or make the Rupture Cannon AP2 (the damn thing is meant to be comparable to a ShadowSwords main gun)?

Every other army also has lots of ap1-3 weapons at decent prices, we either have to spam zoanthropes or buy a MC at 200pts. Not too mention units with decent armour/invulnerable saves and access to EW which we don't have. Only thing with a 2+ is a Tyrannofex, and that unit alone is enough to highlight the problems with the codex.

We shouldn't have to buy Lords of War to have decent firepower

Alien Vs Predator 2:Requiem

dude you have to relax. Walk a bit outside, breathe, and then come back.

Speaking about adaptation. The Tyranids failed to adapt to the Necrons weaponry deployed in Shield of Baal.

How many swarms did the Burning One kill over the course of the war? Not a single mention of Tyranids gaining fire resistant adaptation. Instead we are given details about how each swarm that fell under the C'tan's sight was turned to ash in moments.

And this Hive fleet is Leviathan which is second in adaptation only to Gorgon.

Mate, I agree with your point but seriously calm down.
Save your anger for the battlefield

I have some bad news for you. In canon, the orks do beat the nids at Octarius.

No, I WILL NOT CALM DOWN. Feeling angry is fun.

> As I understand it, Tau introduced a virus that gave nids an evolutionary dead-end, is that correct? Seems like Tau and Necrons are pretty savage nid adversaries.

Wrong place, time, and fleet. That was Farsight Enclave vs a splinter of Kraken. They created a virus that killed off the whole splinter fleet the moment the ship feeders sucked up the biomass.

...and DESU, the bio-cannon isn't that great. You get two and they're S10 assault 6, but they're AP3, and you have no blast options.

>Feeling Angry is fun
Ahhh, autism.

Thanks for the clarification, though.

A: They did adapt to be a lot mroe fire resistant. That just wasn't enough.

B: It was obvious that resisting the Burning One wasn't , so they didn't waste resources on it.

C: Adaptation may see them manage hotter climate, be less susceptible to some forms of biological or chemical warfare, etc. Not surviving a fucking napalm bath.

It's not fucking Borg style plot armour.

Horde armies in 40k are often defeated by some more or less bullshit heroic actions anyway.
Never ending tides of orks? Kill the warboss and this all over!
All hell is vomited upon a world? Close the warp portal and all demons get back home.
Tyranids get macguffined to death, it's how it is.

Because otherwise, that would mean long campaigns with logistics and all sort of thinking stuff, and not the Heroes saving the day. And only FW want to write that.

Remember when you could argue the Heirophant had a 3++ save due to a wording issue between codexs?

Instantly made you That Guy, but it was funny in friendly games to have such a monster running around with a 3++

To be fair, killing orks just makes more orks. Killing Tyranids doesn't make more biomass, just turning existing biomass from moving to not moving.

The nids and orks were made for each other, though. I love reading the fluff where they fight.

Is there something any GW developer wrote that had no balance problems in a way or another?

Welcome to Carnac.

>As I understand it, Tau introduced a virus that gave nids an evolutionary dead-end, is that correct?
No, in the original 5th edition version they just learned to Shoot the Big Ones, which hurt Gorgon especially because it had less and struggled to replace them quickly enough. The current codex dropped that though.

They beat one wave, thanks to Ghazghkull's arrival, and now they're dealing with the next one.

C'tan actively break physics to their own whims and Necron weaponry in general is extremely difficult to adapt properly against, Gauss in particular basically ignores any measure of protection except density due to how it works.

It's not a matter of the Tyranids being bad at adapting, it's a matter of Necron tech being top-tier.

Wording issue? I thought the first apocalypse book just literally said 3++, but my memory's fuzzy. I feel like the heirophant needs something but I can't figure out how I'd make it good.

Internet Nid players are the worst.
We have 1-2 guys at our store that stomp people frequently.

The biggest issue I see from nid players are the same I see with kdk players....they upgrade too much of their shit. You do not need a million options, you are a hoard army.

Another mistake is thinking "My whole army will be x". That is bullshit netlisting and it does not work, you need variety.

FFS the gargoyle formation is fantastic, a base fex is still amazing, and you have flyrants.....not to mention the mama nid that spams more nids?

Get creative and quit bitchin.

>a base fex is still amazing

The Flyrants are good, the gaunt-spawner is good, the malenthrope is useful, but Carnifexes are terrible these days.

Actually reading the fluff in you pic, I have to say...it's fine.

Haha, ohhhkayy. I think it depends on your local meta--we have a ton of 40k players at the store so it varies wildly between super-competitive and not at all. In the "not at all" games, nids can be tons of fun, in the competitive games it's rough, and I think tournament results illustrate this. What army/armies do you play?

The "mama nid" basically kills all the gants around her within 12" when she dies...which she will with so many armies having ignores-cover.

The malanthrope -can- be useful but ignores cover easily negates all its usefulness.

> a base fex is still amazing
uhhhhhhrrghblblblbllll

Agreed, wtf. It has 4W and basic spess mereen armor. It's not fast, it has 6LD so psychic scream is very deadly to it and it's WS/BS3. Sure it's S9, but you need to keep synapse with it or the unit eats itself.

Well, I look at its rules and I'm amazed. I guess it makes amazing?

Quick question. What makes the 40k universe so appealing to people? I've suddenly become pretty invested in it and I can't exactly figure out why

aghhhhhhhmmmblblblblblblbllll

sorry I was trying to talk out of my ass that guy did.

Outside of Imperial Armour, we only had rules for the Heirophant in Apocalypse rulebook which come out just before we got 5th edition.

The rules for it said something like "A Heirophant has the Warp Field psychic power as listed in the Tyranid codex", naturally when we got 5th edition Warp Field changed from a 6++ to a 3++ because it was meant as a Zoanthrope only power. But without any FAQs, reading the rules as printed implied it got a 3++

The new Imperial Armour rules for it give it a much needed boast allowing players to purchase upgrades such as a hellstorm bio plasma attack, transport capacity, and skyfire options. Though I'd still reduce it's points by about 250-300 if it were me, a War Hound Titan is 750 and has D weapons

Flyrants are easily killed, Tervigons look daunting but die just as easily and wipe out most of your gants. The carnifex really isn't good, its lost it's ability to deal damage to cover it's costs.
I also think you're forgetting no other army has such severe restrictions on them, literally half our army will eat itself if someone doesn't tap it on the shoulder each turn whilst the other half hide

Alot of the issues with the tyranids isn't so much the codex (which isn't good by any standard) but by the power creep that has infested the game. Other armies are just too powerful and their gimics beat ours hands down

What about it amazes you? I am legitimately curious. I really want to know now what army you play.

I dunno. I agree it sucks you in... I wouldn't say the writing is good but having such a quantity of story is really nice.

for me is
- chaos. chaos make it a buddhist setting with a gothic aestethic
- ayy lmaos are cool and different
- tragic but not pathetic
- references to a period of pop culture I adore

>What about it amazes you?

not that guy but I think it was ironic

>always kinda wanted to do Nids
>always loved raveners
>almost bought into Nids when the Trygons released
>didn't because money and friend played Nids
>skip to now
>subterranean swarm exists
>not worth the money
>have no one to play with anyway

That's right, I remember now! Such lazy writing not to just come up with a new term--"Bio field" or something.

I didn't realize you could give the heirophant skyfire, but that's my fault for using BattleScribe instead of buying the book (which I saw is finally back in stock).