What are your thoughts on Vancian magic?

What are your thoughts on Vancian magic?

Remember: always masturbate before posting on Veeky Forums.

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Why do you say that?

Much better in the actual books, and ultimately a clever way of limiting how much someone can cast without having to deal with any double digit numbers while being rather flavorful. For the people who think of it as being overly gamist, I do recommend that they at least read the first part of the Dying Earth to get a better sense for it.

It is, however, somewhat outdated, and works best for 1-3 abilities, rather than an entire spell list. But, I do find it interesting how games like 5e are adapting the originally strict Vancian system, including things like at-will cantrips, abilities that refresh spells, rituals, and greater flexibility in general. I still don't like having to create a chart every time I play a spellcaster to keep track of my spell slots, but it's definitely improved.

It makes more sense if you think about it like mini scrolls. Like those papers you see Japanese people put up against ghosts

>30 - Vancian Magic - Cast magic like the wizards of old. Your next 20 spells do not use Magicka and are twice as effective. When you run out of spells, you are unable to cast spells until you rest by sleeping at an inn or in your home.
>50 - Quadratic Wizard - Whenever you recharge your Vancian Magic spells, you gain 1 additional Vancian Magic spell for each 10 points of base Magicka.
>70 - Dungeon Master - Whenever you recharge your Vancian Magic spells, you may choose less or more spells in exchange for increased or decreased spell effectiveness, and/or choose one of three metamagic enhancements. Your choice remains in effect until your next rest.

Should I use it?

Well, I don't know, maybe I'm missing something and all wizards in the world of D&D are psychic and know what spells they'll need the next day. Oh and also all have massive amnesia and can't recall shit after casting a spell.

Dragonlance did it okay.

It's underlying mechanic is mathematics as per Dying Earth, so Vancian magic is super math/science.

- Dungeon Master
One spell, maximum power, yes?

This is all fucking retarded. What is so hard about:

>Know spell
>In the right condition to cast spell
>Have enough mana for spell
>Have enough components for spell
>Cast fucking spell
>Don't magically forget spell after casting it

I read 3 books of my Dying Earth anthology and I still don't think I quite get it. Sometimes it's math, sometimes it's reading something from a book, sometimes it's just some woman who shows up and curses you.

Started as a good and clever way to balance wizards, got too carried away with itself in short order, and now it's the driving force behind quadratic wizards.

>how do I game design?

Good for the setting Vance made but Gygax was a dumbass for using it in D&D.

If you can cast a spell why can't you just keep doing that until you get tired

>Not wanting to be a living magic gun

Vancian magic works because the wizard partially casts a spell ahead of time, minus the final gesture, command phrase etc. They carry these unfinished spells around in their head waiting for the correct time to finish the spell and fire it off, effectively acting like a gun loaded with bullets.

Which you'd know if you ever bothered to read the fluff material instead of just the rules.

Vancian magic works sort of like using the brain as a data storage unit. You carefully memorize the spell through a method that effectively inscribes it into your mind, with a portion of your subconscious dedicated to maintaining that spell's integrity. Memorizing a single spell is a big deal in The Dying Earth, taking decades of work, and being able to hold onto as many as three requires prodigious talent that is beyond the power of almost all wizards.

Casting a spell is less about consuming energy, but about completing a complex incantation, and actually is a load off of the caster's mind, both figuratively and literally.

Effective if you want individual abilities to have a tactical weight behind them, but don't want to let users have too much flexibility in options.

I feel like it's vastly underrated in how effective it can be as a design tool, which is primarily the fault of D&D abusing the fuck out of the system for decades. 5e took a step in the right direction, but I feel that 5e's version of the system is too flexible.

I was always confused why they didn't make it a con+casting stat thing. Books always go on about how exhausting magic is (if it's the protagonist) but vancian casting doesn't really show this in an impactful way other than "whelp, outta magic, lets rest guys"

I sort of like the 40k method, which is there is risks above and beyond the spell itself. My problem with it is there's a chance you tpk the whole party because you're basically a wand of horror every time you cast.

>lets rest guys
I'm like 100% sure that spells aren't restored by simply sleeping.

No. MANA is. That's why spastician casting is fucking stupid. I could never comprehend what the hell would possess a person to come up with a spellcasting system this fucking stupid.

>Hurr imma load muh head meat with spell bullets

>I continue to be stupid, even after you tried to help me

Then you are lost.

>Hur imma fill my meat canteen with spell juice

>Defending this piss
Worthless.

You mean recharge your spirit with spiritual energy? Yeah, what'll they think of next? Recharging the body with fucking FOOD hahahahaha!

>Spiritual energy

So
...Semen?

I hate this site.

Cumagic!

>pre-cast spells dammed up and released with trigger words
Okay.
>spells are rigid and immutable
Not fun. To take the "magic gun" analogy, that's like everybody in the world can only load Federal 124gr FMJ in a Glock 19. Wizard should be smart and understand how to derive a spell, not only memorize it.

>You mean recharge your spirit with spiritual energy?
Mana sounds more like this.

If you're playing in a monster girl setting, yes.

Prestige class: Spermcerer. Put that high Charisma to good use by fucking everything in sight.

Speaking of, does anyone have a full version of the dying earth rpg rules?

I read a preview and it was hilarious/

I love vancian magic, I wish I could marry vancian magic

Anyone who doesn't like vancian magic is a baby who was raised suckling the teat of a mana potion, and/or didn't actually read any of the lore behind.

Which is fitting, because people who can't read can't cast vancian magic either.

Interesting in abstract and in the Dying Earth setting, but very poorly explored in D&D while also being an ill fit for most D&D settings.

>Wizard should be smart and understand how to derive a spell, not only memorize it.
Dying Earth's magic is like technology in 40k's Imperium of Man. Even the people that are good at interacting with it don't truly understand how it works, and they get by with a version propped up by layers of mysticism and esoterica that miss the forest for the trees.

Bard.
You mean bard.

Nah. Bards have to use song and charm and shit to get people to fuck them. Sorcerers just have to stand there and look pretty while radiating magical presence without even trying.

>Not Spermancer
You had one job.

>Cumjurer

>Cummoner

>Cumvoker

>Cumchanter

what the fuck is mana? I've always disliked it, though it makes sense in vidoe games.

thee was similar to this in the Pan Tang supplement to the Elric rpg by Chaosium, learning new spells took meditation/introspection/concentration as you pretty much reshaped the pathways of your brain allowing you to think/conceive of spells in the new terms as anything daemonic is normally beyond mortal understanding.

Oddly enough, that's exactly how ShadowRun does it.

They do. Its called learning a spell when you level up. Literally, it's you deriving a couple spells from what you've learned through random insight or something like that. You can also pick up spells from other wizards by reading their spell book and copying a spell from it to yours, effectively learning it for future casting.

The thing, the spells that can be learned are the ones that work. And quite often the list of spells and what works is overseen by the God of Magic making sure there isn't too much powerful magic or things going wrong. There is also the rules in every edition of D&D that tell you how to come up with your own spells using certain guidelines and talking with your GM. Making variations of current spells is easy to do and literally only requires you to ask your GM permission to do it.

Your post reeks of never having read any of the actual rules and hating on Vancian via Veeky Forums osmosis.

Raccoon marriage? The next thing you know we'll be letting gay people vote.

Having to make lists of memorized spells is obnoxious. Running out of spells because you misjudge the length of an adventure (which is sometimes something you have no way of knowing) can bring your party's progress to a screeching halt, punishing not only you, but the other members as well. And when faced with this, the GM will often hand-wave a way for you to regain your spells even when the situation indicates you really shouldn't be able to, thus eliminating one of the main constraints on caster power.

With that said, I like the idea of different level spell slots. It prevents all your spells from being in direct competition with each other, which inevitably leads to a few outshining the rest and getting used much more often. Also, the used it / didn't use it thing is nice and a less mathy than subtracting 13 mana points for using a 6th level spell, or whatever.

Personally, I like the idea of being able to cast one spell per spell level you know per act / chapter / whatever-you-want-to-call-it (a period of time that generally spans from the end of one encounter through the end of the next). Further, to keep you from spamming the same spell over and over, once you use a spell, you check it off and can't use it again until you spend an extended period meditating and such (possibly only to be done outside the dungeon and possibly taking days or even weeks). You don't have to memorize spells though, and so are working off a larger list. So yes, you are depleting resources, but in smaller proportions to the way vancian casting usually works, and it mainly serves to make you use different spells.

This is true. I feel like it's used as an underlying mechanic but not properly fluffed out. And since it's a bit odd this doesn't work very well. People end up envisioning a more intuitive magic scheme, causing a conflict between the idea and the mechanical implementation.

Qi. Chakra. Spirit energy.
Can be self-made or gathered from ambient sources.
In MTG you apparently need a personal connection to vast tracks of land to draw the power.

I like it a lot, but not necessarily the fluff surrounding it or the way it is used in DnD. I use a heavily homebrewed system, there are no 'spell levels' and casters do not get bonus power to spells for simply being a higher levels, they have to 'stack' multiple of the same spell which counts as one more powerful version of the spell.

Secondly, I like the idea of spell preparation but there is no reason to restrict it to just studying a book vance style. Instead I let my players get creative and even made a random table of preparation methods.

Using vancian magic is a bit like loading a series of muskets or hand made powder bombs for later use. You know a couple of formula for different gunpowders & shot types, to make different coloured smoke or wounds, etc, then fire them off when needed. The hours of 'memorising' the spells is you getting all the arcane energy ready to be released in a certain tried and tested shape. To me, it seems to add a bit more flavour than "I use six points". I want to play a mage who is harnessing nature, not an accountant.

Stands are better.

>Cumromancer

Depends. It's kinda like a needs mod in that it adds some light roleplaying constraints that makes the pace of your adventures a little different. Skyrim isn't really designed for it though. It can make playing a pure mage pretty annoying. Make a save fork and give it a try.

Fuck rules
For me Vancian magic is arguing with 3 other mages (for a total of 14 hats) about which spell to cast on the fucker who tried to steal my IOUN stones, then cast it and move on the next IOUN shenanigan

I find no problem with it. This is how wizards decided to present one of their magic systems and like 5th edition, pathfinder and non-magic users I have no feeling toward it beyond exasperation. At you OP

you don't like dnd, you don't like pathfinder, whatever GURPS is, exactly. You don't like roll20, or spellcasters, human male fighters- or excessive creativity/snowflakeism.

What do you like? and please, please tell me something other then "ADND"

Vancian magic is IMO fun to read about and wholly unsuited to your typical D&D style campaign. Seemed OK in the Pelgrane Press (?) actual Dying Earth game, and you _might_ be able to device a Dying Earth D%D homebrew that works. Wizards might be some weird combo of crap and OP, but they were already so hey.

>cum romancer
or
>cum + "-romancer" as in necromancer or tyromancer