Warhammer Fantasy General

more like Endless Bretonnia Shilling.

What's wrong with that? GW has effectively killed Bretonnia as a product.

>GW
>logic

sigmarites are kawaii

kawaii!!

> Casting of Disco Fever prayer intensifies.

...

Mm. I got that vibe too, but bear in mind that the 'Bretonnian conquests' in Estalia and Tilea are ruled by random sergeants, hedge knights and warlords because all the actual Bretonnian nobles are dead. They have no way of running a central government even with their magic king back. Bretonnia's just as fucked as everyone else, or at least that's how I'd run it.

Subjectively: Bretonnia is a totally bland, standard fantasy faction that injects unneeded "good guy" points into the setting.

Realistically: Bretonnia couldn't stand up to the tide of Chaos any better than the Elves, Dwarves, Empire, and Tomb Kings could.

That's a fairly good way of looking at it.

Do the Grail Pilgrims in Total War Warhammer look...off to anyone? Seems like a redesign.

I disagree.

Bretonnia also has one of the biggest navies in the setting that you mever see on the tabletop. They take out most of the Chaos Warriors coming their way before they set foot on their soil. Then there are the Grail Knights which are kinda like having a bunch of Captain America's deffending Bretonnia.

Anyone have any of the Mirilton halflings? I'm trying to put together a halfling army without bankrupting myself with boutique models.

Warhammer has always been a heroic setting. If anything in the last army book that Bretonnia had they toned down their heroism.

They look fine, it's the elves that look completely off.

I think he just hates a faction other than Empire and Chaos getting attention. It's endhammer so it's not like it matters, since you can just pick and choose like the regular universe.

I myself love the Empire and Bretonnia. It's cool to me to have human cultures that contrast against eachother.

I like it best when they're bros. Different, but still standing together when it matters.

It's not that they are, but everyone else is taking the brunt of it for them before they have to deal. Only Tilea and Estalia are further from Chaos.

Bretonnia also have to deal with Dark Elf slave raids. It's not like they are living a charmed life compared to the Empire.

Actually capturing druchii alive has to be a rare treat. Torturing a torturer is formidable. Nagash managed, though.

Guy you're talking about here, my own shitty Warhammer post-End Times AU Thing has a Brettonia faction too. I just don't like the way Brettonians are portrayed by their fans, nor that they subsumed an entire wing of an AU I thought was a good idea and were made into, essentially, The Best Faction, like 40kids and their Space Marines.

Outside whatever BL wrote about Nagash's Dark Elves originally they were just visiting and Nagash learnt magic from them.

So your problem is that Bretonnia fans like Bretonnia more than other factions? That's perfectly normal behaviour.

Would Warhamner have survived if the game was focused more as a skirmish warband game opposed to the continual increase of gargantuan rank and file blocks and epic units?

As AoS is now but with the original WHF skirmish rules from 6th edition?

I felt more comfortable and enjoyed playing smaller skirmish games, mordheim, narrative skirmish battles etc.

I am talking in relation to attaining many players and many small sales opposed to a few players with bigger sales?

The meta just made WHFB too much of an expensive hobby to get into for the newbies and the old players already had finished armies.

They seem to attract the HFY faction the most, which is a shame, there isn't much wrong with them.

They get a few things, but not as much as everyone else. The sections of the coast that the Dark Elves and Norscans will raid is relatively small, they have less forest for beastmen to hide in (and most of the forest they do have is watched over by Wood Elves, who will fuck things up every so often but otherwise help keep enemies out), the Orcs are stuck in the mountains and rarely get to raid outside of them, the dwarves only have a small presence in the Grey Mountains, and the Empire is content to only have occasional border skirmishes, since trade with Bretonnia isn't worth losing out on.

I think you're confusing Bretonnian fans with fanboys. We simply like our faction and waited over 10 years for a book that was finished but never released. I like when Bretonnia gets some attention, it's long overdue.

This. It's not that people who like the faction like the faction that's the problem, it's that they do it to the exclusion of any other factions. "In my opinion, I like X better" is not "Objectively, X is better".

I forgot to add - this is probably why their society hasn't collapsed. They're getting enough threats that they can get the Knights Errant to earn their lances and land, but they don't have to subject a fairly one-note army against a serious threat. What few threats they go up against are small enough that they can be kept contained.

And I forgot to mention their Undead presence is really limited, since the Tomb Kings have to travel far to get that far north in general, and Mousilion is the only real bastion of undead and vampires in the area.

Since when has that ever happened? I've only ever said that Bretonnia deserved more attention than what it got, which was almost none at all. I think you're just pulling that out of your ass to divide the thread.

You make it sound like the knights just sit on their ass.

Later canon has him capturing them and torturing the secrets of manipulating dark magic from them over the course of years.

Well what else do they do? Once they become a Knight of the Realm, they only have to protect their lands unless called by some higher noble for something. Knight Errants and technically Questing Knights do most of the running around.

It's not like they're Space Marines on horses, constantly going from one warzone to another.

They were shipwrecked and captured.

You could say that about every race. What else does a High Elf do but drink wine and wait for a thousand years? It's not like they deal with Dark Elf raids every day. There are plenty of threats for Bretonnia to deal with, and a knight has to earn and keep his position. If not, the king can replace you.

They actually do leave their country. There was that notable crusade when Araby was invading Estalia and Bretonnia came to its aid.

That was thousands of years ago, and Bretonnia is not currently at war. The King had to call a crusade in that case. The last Erranty War was hundreds of years ago.

In the Storm of Chaos cannon they dragged their ass to Middenheim to help beat the shit out of Archaon's invasion.

Technically the last Errantry War was sent to aid the Empire, though I doubt you're going by Storm of Chaos timeline. Louen led the younger knights while Duke Bohemond the Beastslayer brought up the rear with the rest of the army composed of the veteran knights.

Notably King Louen defeated Be'lakor and rescued Volkmar from his prison atop his standard. Unfortunately this was not recounted in the 7th edition Empire book. I can't say I wasn't surprised when it was ignored.

How do I win at WFRP 2e? Which career is the best?

That reminds me, is there any way to see the Storm of Chaos results, before and after GW fucked with them? I've tried using the way back machine with not much success.

>King Louen defeated Be'lakor and rescued Volkmar from his prison atop his standard.

That didn't happen.

There are objectively better careers, especially some of the Basic ones, but there is no 'best' career since there are some that are really great at combat but not so much the talking, or can't heal their wounds.

My advice is think, plan and be bold. And don't be afraid to die or get maimed, or go insane.

I think there was an archive of the old GW site, before they turned it into a store-only page. Not sure if the results were stored there, though. But they did have a lot of fluff, painting and conversion guides, things like that.

No one likes a contrarian shitposter.

that's what a controcontrarian would say!

People don't like a liar who makes things up either.

It was in an after action report written by Gav Thorpe. I don't care if you don't believe it, I can't prove it since the Storm of Chaos site doesn't exist anymore. I just think it was neat and a shame that they ignored it.

I think they ignored it because the Gav summary was shit and made most characters mentioned look like shit.

Bretonnia is a nice place to live because the knights are doing their jobs instead of petty province politics.

I don't care for him as a writer much, it still made me happy to see Bretonnia doing something noteworthy during the campaign while the spotlight was on the Empire.

To be fair they do have their family feuds, though there are a number of people who can come in and stop the shit with a word. Damsels, Grail Knights, anyone with the authority of the King. The only one they could resist are the Grail Knights and that's if you're some kind of retarded fool.

I mostly didn't like it because I was a VC player at the time and Mannfred's stunt made him seem like the biggest retard in the setting. I guess they were foreshadowing the End Times Mannfred with that.

>you juts gotta belib meh

No.
Volkmar broke himself free.
Teclis was the one who defeated Be'lakor.
All Louen did was have his hippogryph fly Volkmar to a temple.

Actually, Be'lakor did all the heavy lifting by resurrecting the dead Volkmar in the first place. That guy has no idea what he's doing and is the butt of all the jokes.

The ending of Storm was...kind of a mess. That was unfortunate to march all that way only to turn back because of a book. An important book, but he may as well have stayed home. At least he massacred Vardek Crom and his warriros.

I said I don't care if you don't believe me. And defeating doesn't equal killing, only forcing him from the field. Teclis dropped the equivalent of a nuke on Be'lakor and his daemonic legion.

Mannfred could at least had his retard size legion of undead start killing his enemies as he gets out of there. I recall that he reanimated all the casualties at Middenheim, and then didn't do anything with them.

The third party minis for Bretonnia are getting pretty sweet.

IMO the Storm of Chaos' resolution left a lot to be desired, but I don't see the problem with the overall end result being "The Empire has been weakened and an old threat has returned, but Chaos has been repelled once more and things are looking either up or better-than-for-disorder overall".

Of the Order factions only the Elves, Bretonnians, and arguably Empire / Dwarves could be argued to have won (Kislev was horrendously sacked, the Empire was fated to deal with lingering Chaos war bands for some time alongside Mannfred's rise, the Dwarves lost a few named characters, Wood Elves took appreciable damage to Athel Loren)… but of Disorder only Orcs and Vampire Counts came out particularly ahead? The Cult of Slaanesh spelt trouble and internal turmoil for the Druchii (who also failed to take the Phoenix Throne, yet again), the Daemon Legions were BTFO, an Everchosen was smacked down and the bulk of his army broken, the Beastmen did their damage but many were slaughtered in the process, the Skaven failed in most of their objectives and Hell Pit is still a ghost town courtesy of Grimgor, and even the VCs mostly just didn't lose anything by not playing even after they decided to show up.

I believe Volkmar was ready to read the Ritual of Unbinding, so leaving a rearguard would have been pointless. Why was this book was at Middenheim instead of Altdorf? Who knows. Oh wait, Gav and team had to slap together an ending using fan results.

At least it was better than the Nemesis Crown campaign which may as well have never happened in the first place. With all the rewards at stack, of course the Dwarfs won so that nothing changed. High Elves were such a close second that there is no doubt in my mind that they were the true winners, with Bretonnia coming in third or fourth, not sure which.

Nice, I like the crew a lot more than the trebuchet itself, though. Kinda looks like it's made from playdough.

The model does look transport friendly, though.

>I said I don't care if you don't believe me.

And I'm saying you're a liar.

>And defeating doesn't equal killing, only forcing him from the field.

Louen didn't defeat shit. He "battled bravely against the Dark Master" but again, did not defeat him.

>Teclis dropped the equivalent of a nuke on Be'lakor and his daemonic legion.

Yes, Teclis actually defeated him, unlike chickenheart.

If you want to get mad and throw out insults, then go for it. You just look foolish when what I'm saying is how I remember it. Since neither of us have the after action report, or the Storm of Chaos site then both of what we're saying is moot.

Mannfred was close enough to kill a weakend Volkmar himself. Why even bother doing such a huge attentiongrabbing stunt that announces his precense to all his enemies and then go home with his huge horde that no one will fail to spot so that everyone will know he hides in Sylvania?

Then there was Settra putting Nagash's fortress under a siege for thenentire campaign and nothing happened at all because Nagash just ignored him like a small yuppy dog.

Just thinking about it makes me mad at Gav all over again.

Could have once had all this.

...

I thought that was pretty funny. Settra had his legions park outside Nagashizzar and barked at him to come out, but wouldn't go inside to get him because he knew he'd get rekt. Then he just went home, I guess.

SoC had so much promise, but like a GM trying to run a campaign for his players but didn't account for all the things they could do, the story fell apart. At least Skaven got some cool things going on like Project: Supremacy. While a failure, it failed in typical Skaven style.

I actually ran a campaign during the SoC where my players stole what was essentially a battery of magical energy, causing the machine in the catacombs of Middenheim to not activate properly.

>If you want to get mad and throw out insults, then go for it.

I will, I won't let bullshit go unopposed.

>Since neither of us have the after action report, or the Storm of Chaos site then both of what we're saying is moot.

You can still find copies of the Loremaster's journal, or old boards posting back during the campaign.

Yeah, it's funny. My real problem was that they set up all this setting and character development that basically didn't amount to anything. Then they just went full status quo preserving until the late 8'th edition.

>>bullshit go unopposed
Sure, your medal's in the mail.

Besides, is the loremaster's journal the same as the after action report? Keep in mind that the AAR was written as a story, not just a rundown of notable things. These AAR's were written once or twice a week, I think, usually after a change in the defences. So believe what you want, I don't care. Not once did I say this was canon that people must adhere to. Should someone post that AAR that says differently then my memory of the event will obviously have been wrong.

>Besides, is the loremaster's journal the same as the after action report?

Yes, it was the daily after action report.

>Should someone post that AAR that says differently then my memory of the event will obviously have been wrong.

It is obviously wrong, you can go right now and find a copy of the loremaster's journal and read all about how on day 46 Volkmar breaks himself free while Louen fights Be'lakor.

>>A solid charge led by King Louen Leoncoeur of Bretonnia scattered the pursuing Chaos forces. In the melee that followed, the Bretonnian King and his knights engaged the Daemonic host of Be'lakor. As Louen battled bravely against the Dark Master, an anguished cry was heard over the battlefield. Filled with inhuman strength, Volkmar the Grim ripped free of the chains binding him to Be'lakor's army standard and laid about the daemons with those self-same enchanted chains. Bloodied but unbowed, Volkmar was carried free upon the back of the King's hippogryph and has been taken to the temple of Shallya in Middenheim.

So he still rescued him, just the details weren't correct. What happened to Be'lakor during this battle? Did he just teleport away from Louen only to be nuked by Teclis? Who knows. All you had to do was post this one snippet instead of going on some personal crusade against someone who had only their memory to go on.

I wanted to run a WFRP game after the Not!SoC, the current Emperor is old, crazy (in part due to age, in part due to grief that his eldest son died) and dying, so the succession is a toss up between his charismatic, Sigmarite younger son and a more experienced, Ar-Ulric supported Count. The other Electors are picking sides in anticipation of the Emperor's death.
Sadly I suck at political, so I don't think I could play the tensions or machinations properly. Not that'd it'd matter that much from a player perspective, I guess.

>So he still rescued him

No, he freed himself.

>What happened to Be'lakor during this battle? Did he just teleport away from Louen only to be nuked by Teclis?

Still don't know much, do you? This was day 46. Teclis would only nuke Be'lakor at the end of the campaign.
This would not even be the last time Louen fought Be'lakor.

>All you had to do was post this one snippet

I already posted the pertinent information in this post >some personal crusade against someone who had only their memory to go on.

Hardly a personal crusade, first I just told you something didn't happen and then you got all defensive.

Having things fly over their heads could be a plus, as they may not understand why Averland votes for the young Prince of Altdorf, or why Middenheim is constantly throwing out accusations of Sigmarite bias. They may have some understanding, but the will of lords, counts and dukes are their own.

It doesn't necessarily need your players to stay at court and roleplay Game of Thrones as best they can, you can have them dig up dirt on candidates depending on who they're supporting. Or make up dirt.

If anything, you seem like the defensive one. Had you posted that right from the beginning then you wouldn't have had this argument. Instead you resorted to an hominem. In any case, Louen flew Volkmar to the temple of Shallya. I still consider that a rescue even if Volkmar broke his own chains. Unless you consider Luke killing the wampa ice monster and being saved by Han from the cold as not a rescue.

>If anything, you seem like the defensive one.

I'm all aggression in this case.

>Had you posted that right from the beginning then you wouldn't have had this argument.

I didn't have it right from the beginning, I just remembered correctly. When I did find it I threw out a quote.

>I still consider that a rescue even if Volkmar broke his own chains. Unless you consider Luke killing the wampa ice monster and being saved by Han from the cold as not a rescue.

Luke was going to die. Volkmar gave no indication that he was going too.

So what's up with people shitting on Bretonnia? I find them to be a rather fun addition to the setting.

Misplaced aggression, at that.

Considering that Vokmar was brought to the Shallyan priestesses, and was in incredible agony atop Be'lakor's standard, then I can only assume he needed healing. That snippet doesn't say if he didn't or not, so we have only the assumption. And if you only needed to be patched up you wouldn't seek out the divine.

Unless of course you have more AARs to post, which detail how much or little healing he needed. Remember, he was dead and broken when Be'lakor forced his soul back into his body and was in constant agony.

No idea. I think it's just one or two people who want to divide the thread into shitflinging. Strange since there was a lot of Kangz posting in older threads, despite the fact that Nehekharans fought little else besides themselves for most of their history.

I don't think there is really any faction in the game that is generally disliked. There has been some bellyaching about Chaos getting special treatment, though. But I have never seen any concrete posts about it.

>Unless of course you have more AARs to post, which detail how much or little healing he needed. Remember, he was dead and broken when Be'lakor forced his soul back into his body and was in constant agony.

The very one you posted says that he was bloodied, but unbowed.
He was brought back from the dead and sustained with dark magic.

He was also fighting again in Middenheim a mere ten days later.

Not him, but I figure Volkmar wouldn't be in the best condition after being more or less crufied to a banner for a longass time. It would at least be traumatic and stressful.

Chaos does get a lot of attention, but Empire does as well. The only faction I have a problem with is Ogre Kingdoms, as I think they didn't really need a book. If anything they should have been a mercenary list that could also function as a stand alone army but with fewer choices, like the Kislev booklet.

Unbowed could simply mean he was able to fight despite his wounds for a time. The point is he was brought to the Shallyan temple. You don't go there to chat up the priestesses. Even if he was fighting just over a week later, that could be because of the healing he received.

Well, it would be weird if Chaos didn't get a lot of attention. They are part of that hole to an alien dimension that leaks magic into the mortal plane that makes everything in the setting magical. The setting just wouldn't be the same without them.

>Unbowed could simply mean he was able to fight despite his wounds for a time.

His wounds made him dead.
His wounds were sort of irrelevant at that point seeing as he tore himself free from the standard and beat up daemons using his chains.

>The point is he was brought to the Shallyan temple. You don't go there to chat up the priestesses. Even if he was fighting just over a week later, that could be because of the healing he received.

There are any number of reason to go to a healing temple when you've been killed, reanimated and tortured, but nothing implies he needed healing to survive.
Again he had been brought back from the dead and granted fortitude enough to survive being essentially crucified for weeks and still have the strength spare to break his own chains.

They're my personal favorite faction, because I love their high medieval asthetic and how fun their knights feel on the tabletop, but I will admit they have a few problems. Their army is one-note on the battlefield as GW turned them from 'generic medieval France' into 'generic medieval France with Arthurian themes,' and they cannot take mercenaries to make up for this lack of flexibility - they got the option by End Times, sure, but it was a hollow gesture. This could have been fine if GW had given them enough love over the years, but they didn't seem to want to do much with Bretonnia. Even the RPG only makes them even more French, like 'fuck there's nothing else we can think to add.'

If you can say one good thing about GW, they have a solid foundation. All their factions are likeable enough to either be favorites to play as or at least fun to fight against.

I'm not saying they shouldn't get attention, just that the setting has other antagonists that aren't Chaos. It's kind of a weird effect where one faction gets more attention than the others, which makes them get more attention while the others are left out in the cold. Not that we need all the human factions to have army books, but every army should have had their spotlight moments instead of just a small handful.

It also doesn't imply that he didn't need healing. The point is that he went to the Shallyan temple, and there are only two reasons to go there and I'm sure as hell he didn't end up delivering a baby. Who's to say that the dhar that sustained him didn't flee his body once his connection to Be'lakor was broken and was no longer his standard-slave.

The kicker is that if he didn't need healing then they wouldn't have brought him to the Shallyan temple, they would have brought him to wherever the counsel of war was being held. Even if Ar-Ulric objected he was with Be'lakor for quite some time and may have learned a thing or two about what's going on with the enemy. As it stands he went to the temple instead of directly to the people in charge.

I always kinda imagine that Bretonnia is rather like that Beauclair place in the Witcher 3 Blood and Wine DLC; it's a lot nicer and more "fairytale" like upon first sight but it still has tons of it's own complex internal problems, they just look so different from the Empire's that Imperials who go south look around and think "WTF is wrong with this place?"

I personally liked the Arthurian theme a lot.

>It also doesn't imply that he didn't need healing.

Actually it does. He was the living banner top of Be'lakor, who had shown no interest in having him dead. This implies that he was going to remain alive, perhaps indefinitely, and so was not in immediate need of healing.

>Who's to say that the dhar that sustained him didn't flee his body once his connection to Be'lakor was broken and was no longer his standard-slave.

There was no connection between being a standard and being alive. Be'lakor revived him and put him on the standard, not gave him life via his standard.

>The kicker is that if he didn't need healing then they wouldn't have brought him to the Shallyan temple, they would have brought him to wherever the counsel of war was being held.

Why would they be sure that the fucked up man who had literally been killed didn't need healing?
Louen is not a skilled practitioner of dark magic.

Why would they readily invite the fucked up looking man who had died and was then revived with dark magic and who then spent weeks with an army of daemons to a council of leaders?
That actually seems like it would be dumb.

I'm not implying that the standard gave him life, only the proximity to Be'lakor. If Be'lakor could give him life, I'm sure he could just as easily take it away. Again, there are no details saying that this isn't the case so we have only our own assumptions.

>>Why would they be sure that the fucked up man who had literally been killed didn't need healing?
So which is it? Did he need healing or not? The Shyallyan priesthood also deals in both physical and mental healing, no doubt Volkmar would need both after his horrifying ordeal. If he didn't get any medical attention then it would be incredibly suspicious, and Ar-Ulric would have had more than enough grounds to lock up the former Grand Theoginist.

>>Why would they readily invite the fucked up looking man who had died and was then revived with dark magic and who then spent weeks with an army of daemons to a council of leaders?
You mean the former Grand Theoginist, a man who brought the fight to Archaon? If he doesn't need healing, then where else is he supposed to go? He's a fighter and a pious man who had the faith of Luthor Huss, a man who kills corrupt priests in his spare time, and even if a council would be worried he's only one man against at least three people armed to the teeth with both Greatsword and Tuetogen Guard protecting them. He'd hardly be a threat unarmed, even if he was coursing with Chaotic strength.

>So which is it? Did he need healing or not?

What do you mean, "so which is it?"
There was no contradiction, he was obviously fucked up, but that does not mean he needed healing, since he was being kept alive with dark magic, and indeed would be dead without it.
Be'lakors magic was not said to have healed his wounds, merely drag his soul back into his body.

>If he didn't get any medical attention then it would be incredibly suspicious, and Ar-Ulric would have had more than enough grounds to lock up the former Grand Theoginist.

I'm sure he did receive medical attention, my point was that he did not need it to not die, seeing as he already freely existed with fatal wounds.

>You mean the former Grand Theoginist, a man who brought the fight to Archaon?

Archaon himself was once a man of Sigmar. Point is Chaos is very corruptive, and you should not bring a man who was had his shit fucked up by Chaos relentlessly for weeks into the presence of your leaders without thoroughly scoping him out.

>He'd hardly be a threat unarmed, even if he was coursing with Chaotic strength.

He literally beat daemons to death with chains, and survived being crucified for weeks, he was obviously pretty tough and pretty strong, and that's not accounting for the possibility that he could metamorphosize as corrupted people are know to do.

did I do good guys
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