Mid-tier: >Assamite >Giovanni >Tremere >Salubri-antitribu More playable than the non-antitribu, no? >Setites/Serpents of the Light >Ventrue
Awesome for NPCs-tier >True Brujah >Gargoyle >Harbingers of Skulls >Kiasyd >Nagaraja >Salubri >Samedi >Old Clan Tzimisce >Tlacique >Daitya
Low-tier: >Brujah >Gangrel >Ravnos >Toreador
Caitiff-tier: >Ahrimanes >Blood Brothers >Caitiff/Panders >Children of Osiris >Daughters of Cacophony
Jayden Ramirez
Toreador solidified themselves as my favorite of the Clans when I read their Revised edition Clanbook. It is just so full of hilarious snark that they sold me.
>The Tremere remind me of those uptight, homely girls in high school who thought that since they weren't getting any, no one else should have a good time either.
>The Assamites are like a reversed mirror image of the Tremere. Where the Tremere are too smart for thier own good, the Assamites are full of the kind of brute, efficient stupidity that built the Third Rech. They don't have a complicated master plan, other than "drink vampire blood", so it's very hard to tangle them up.
>If you painted a picture, you'd like the person who seemed to understand and encourage your work, right? Well, it's just the same with the Brujah and their "causes". Figure our what they want to hear. Say it. Now you have a comrade who likes to fight. Trust me, the rhetoric of the revolution is a lot easier to chatter on about than theater criticism. Throw out a few catchphrases that sound good and mean nothing, and the Brujah eats out of your hand [...] (It helps a lot if they think you admire them. But that works with almost everyone.)
>Oh yes, the feared and vaunted "masters of corruption." I was intimidated until I realized that "corruption" is a catchphrase. [...] Anyhow, what "corruption" means is "getting back in touch with that human stuff." Let's look at what the Setite's notorious "corruption" schtick consists of, shall we? Oh gee, SEX? Oh, that's not any kind of throwback to the mortal days. Drugs? There's another tool in their box that has the musk of humanity all over it. Knowledge? Possessions? These are all cravings of the human half, not the Beast. Most of the Setites you're likely to meet are almost as familiar with their human selves as you or I. They're just not as tasteful and stylish.
>Your typical Giovanni likes banging his sister SO MUCH that he won't quit even after she's dead.
Parker Collins
Side note, if you're curious, the clans the Toreador actually respect (according to the Clanbook, anyway) are Ventrue (for being the clan that's good at keeping things running, if not necessarily moving) and Nosferatu (for being basically the reverse mirror image of themselves: their hideous exterior basically allows them to project their Beast outwards, and as a result Nosferatu are some of the most "human" vampires after the Toreador).
I also like how the Clanbook explained their weakness: the Toreador think of it as coming not from their Beast, but rather from their Human side, raging against being shackled in a dead body. Toreador actually *seek out* the Rapture since it gives them a chance to feel human again for its duration.
Lucas Thomas
>En garde, Toreador! You vainglorious, narcissistic poseur! How I loathe that determination of your kind to belie your true nature with Paris fashions and pomp. You are a dead thing - a creature of the shadows. Start acting like one. >You don't get it, do you? Sit and look pretty. Pretend you never died. Do some finger painting. What a pathetic waste of blood.
The Torries are fucking scum. At least the Nosferatu are transparent with their mischief, and their ability to stick together even among sects is admirable. Then again, it's easy when the whole clan fears their Antediluvian.
Carson Hughes
>Ravnos >low-tier
Dude Chimerstry is OP as fuck.
Robert Roberts
I'm here to do a census. Are you participating in this thread instead of the /wodg/ because: A) You are new B) You try to avoid Aspel C) You think Masquerade deserves its own thread C) Other, that is...
Nicholas Torres
A. cWOD > nWOD B. Masquerade DOES deserve its own thread, considering it's superior to all other WOD franchises. There is so much depth and intrigue in V:TM that it would simply dominate the other WOD thread.
Ryder Davis
>low tier >brujah and gangrel
What the fuck are you smoking?
Alexander Morris
Generals were an unfortunate but necessary measure in response to certain topics being so popular they knocked everything else off the board. Occasional side threads are fine.
That said >Brujah >not fucking great
Joseph James
1. I didn't know there was a general and 2. I avoid all generals because they are inherently cancerous.
Austin Martin
>Blood Brothers >Caitiff-tier
They're impossible to play as, but as a storytelling device, they're exquisitely functional NPCs and add to the horror of any given campaign.
>If I were forced to pick the single most pathetic clan, Brujah would get my vote. Yes, even ahead of the Toreador or the Gangrel. The Rabble are the parasites' parasites. Their sect seeks to cower away from mortal eyes rather than striding forth in glory or simply blinding the kine with hot pokers. This clan in turn prides itself on rebellion but cannot actually manage to leave, take over or otherwise alter the status quo. The antitribu are much the same, except with more blood and piercings. >So-called egalitarians, they have no real interest in bettering the lot of others. Rather, they want us brought down to their level so that they can lord it over the rest of us in the democratic mire. Fortunately, their chances of success are nil. In the meantime, those who serve us make superb cannon fodder, and those who do not die easily.
Lasombra, on the Brujah.
Thomas Martin
As far as the Gangrel are concerned
>Every time I look at a Gangrel, I am half-convinced I am going to watch him climb a tree and begin to giber for blood-coated bananas. They are evolution in reverse, Rousseau's noble savage in the flesh. Consider them a failed experiment and allow them to die off with dignity. >The Outlanders make good poster children for wasted potential. They could rule the wilds as gods of chaos if they only had vision and organization. As it is, they scatter in the face of what they believe to be approaching Gehenna. Precisely because their strengths do not challenge ours, I like to make a little effort now and again to recruit them. They could strengthen and diversify the Sabbat, if they were willing to accept discipline. Certainly their twin Sabbat bloodlines reflect well on a mongrel ancestry, producing surprising feats of vigor and cunning.
Jordan Russell
By the way, does anyone here have a favorite sourcebook? Montreal by Night for me.
Oliver Edwards
>implying everything needs to go into generals >implying generals aren't, for the most part, cancer fuck off
Thomas Myers
The Lasombra are just mad they're second rate Venture with twice as many edgy players.
My favourites are probably considered shit tier, but I have my reasons for liking to use them.
>Ventrue I adore my picture of the beast in a suit, a powerhungry monster trying to keep up the fascade of nobility, control and reason. To some extent even sacrificing themselves to lead the Camerilla, but mostly just having better excuses than anyone else for their own schemes and power struggles. The Ventrue Player in my group is a young and formerly kind genious kid who gets his first taste of vampiredom and starts to get drunk on power, first acting like he took responsibility for the group, but quickly realizing he loves to be in control.
>Toreador Again, I love high society Vampires. Also, beyond their first impression making them seem as careless idiots, many hide their plans and agendas, activly using the stereotype to get others to underestimate them. Getting such an intense feeling of adoration for beauty that you literaly freeze is also pretty cool, and I like hidden depth, like in the second "ruling" clan of the camerilla.
>Nosferatu so much potential for so many kinds of characters. Self-Loathing, Atoning, or with a newfound sense of purpose, playing dumb or playing important, always being left out until they need something, and then you start making demands. Also, the Nosferatu NPCs in VTMB were such a treat that it swayed my judgement.
Jonathan Parker
What happens if you Diablerize a higher generation vamp?
Oliver Hall
>True Brujah Yeah, no. Brujah himself thinks they're shit. Just because they use Temporis and belong to the Tal'mahe'Ra doesn't mean they're remotely cool as NPCs.
>Gargoyles Can be cool, but has to be done right. The storytelling usually devolves into "muh oppression," "muh ebil wizard master," et cetera.
>Harbingers of Skulls Great as a revenge plot against the Giovanni and they have tons of secrets, but very difficult to employ without knowledge of proper lore. Storyteller has to really now his shit to make it worthwhile introducing them.
>Kiasyd Great as scholars of immeasurable wisdom. Can even be great PCs with the proper coterie and right Storyteller.
>Nagaraja Meh. Tal'mahe'Ra cannibals.
>Salubri Indeed, they're great as NPCs, but virtually impossible to encounter in modern nights. Storyteller still has to know the proper lore to introduce them.
>Samedi Zombie Cappadocians. Can be cool, but shit, Zombies are overdone.
>Tlacique Gotta admit I'm curious to see how they'd be written since I have a huge boner for Mesoamerican History. Especially fascinating considering most of the Clan were the direct descendants of Aztec Gods, but they're difficult to introduce as characters since most of the lore on them is incomplete and they've been reduced to perhaps a half dozen Kindred in modern nights. Be curious to see if they're truly extant Setites, Baali or Gangrel.
>Daitya They have a strong hold on Kindred society in the Indian subcontinent, but the Storyteller would need a solid grasp of Dharmic philosophy to play them right. Otherwise, it's more "East is Magic" horseshit.
Charles Wright
> How I loathe that determination of your kind to belie your true nature with Paris fashions and pomp. You are a dead thing - a creature of the shadows. Start acting like one.
He says, wearing a tux and clinging to his past as a famous actor.
Jordan Sullivan
I think he handles his unlife far better than most do.
Andrew Cruz
The point being that he's being rather hypocritical.
It's also worth pointing out that the game forces a Toreador character to, at least in this instance, act like their stereotype towards Gary Golden.
Like I said, in truth the Toreador actually respect the Hell out of the Nosferatu in their own way - or alternatively, are terrified of them. The point being that the Nosferatu are one of the few clans that doesn't get snark from the Toreador clanbook.
Isaac Ward
>Ahrimanes >Daughters of Cacophony What was the point of these worthless bloodlines?
Oliver Robinson
Your blood generation becomes theirs. That's how the Tremere and Giovanni became clans.
Jeremiah Cook
The point of Ahrimanes is to appease Thoraboos and have a nature-related clan/bloodline that's not as animalistic as the Gangrel and not as edgy as the Tzimisce or Lhiannan.
David White
>favorite clans, bloodlines, sects, characters, et cetera?
Malkavians, Malkavians, Malkavians, Malkavians, et Malkavian
Carson Watson
He said "higher generation". It's right there in the corebook, though - it doesn't particularly do anything but make you capable of starting to learn any unique clan disciplines they have (aside from Thaumaturgy - not even the Tremere can learn it naturally without a tutor, because it's artificial) and make you feel really fucking good.
Jaxon Carter
>Your typical Giovanni likes banging his sister SO MUCH that he won't quit even after she's dead.
Grayson Rogers
Also, diablerizing a lower-generation vampire only makes you drop one generation by default. If the vampire is particularly low-generation, your generation might drop by two or more - but a high-Willpower, low-generation vampire might actually be able to take you over through their blood, because the Vitae is the vampire's life. Mostly, the diablerist can subsume it without a problem, but there's at least one canon example of a neonate who through a lot of coincidences managed to diablerize a really fucking powerful Ventrue just to have the Methuselah take over his body after a few years.
Michael Harris
tremere,awesome powers, clan that sticks together no matter, and the secrecy of said powers not to spread making gargoyles hating tzimicie etc bedt clan imo at least for me
Angel Peterson
>Clan It might just have to be the Lasombra. There's a nice gap between the older, dignified members of the Moorish noble bloodlines and the newer, more thuggish members, and they lend themselves well to being flawed characters because their Disciplines are useful for an elder with self-control but almost dangerously abusable for a neonate who's just so fucking excited they've become a real vampire. >Bloodlines First off, I want to strangle everyone who has ever thought the Children of Osiris weren't a huge mistake. My favorite, though, is probably the Baali for much the same reason as the Lasombra - while they're easily possible to play as pointless edgemasters, they're not inherently "evil" but have really fucky Disciplines and a habit of making sleeper agents. There's even more push-and-pull between their human sides and all of the unpleasant shit inside them than normal vampires, and they're good for that "steady slide towards damnation" angle without necessarily having to fall to the Beast. Also, just the first two levels of Daimoinon are a blast and a half. >sects All the three main sects are good in their own way. As a perma-ST, I can say it's all about the players and the kind of game you want to play - Camarilla games are good for games about humanity vs. self-interest, Anarch games are good for practicality vs. idealism and Sabbat games are good for questioning whether or not vampires are monsters because they're not human or simply because they used to be human. >characters White Wolf never made a good canon character, though. There are some good premade characters and background ones, but the main ones like Beckett, Lucita, Fatima and the others are slightly iffy at best and horribly fucking obnoxious at worst. And I won't even mention the screaming ghost ashtray.
Dominic Bell
>clan that sticks together no matter what Try "clan that's held together out of fear, selfishness, intrigue, paranoia, greed and plain old megalomania". The Tremere hate each other almost as much as they do others, but they stick together because everyone else hates their guts. If they lose efficiency as a clan, they're fucked, and all of them know it - but in the end, there are very few Tremere who aren't mainly in it for their own ass.
Gabriel Jones
...
Brandon Martinez
Census from a late 90s (IIRC) LARP agree. Ow the edge, and the 50-page Gary Stu fapfics masquerading as backstory.
Evan Barnes
Nah, fuck that.
Carter Long
>(aside from Thaumaturgy - not even the Tremere can learn it naturally without a tutor, because it's artificial
That's not 100% true...Caitiff can learn it spontaneously the same way they can spontaneously manifest other Disciplines, or even whole new ones. Clanbook: Caitiff (part one of the "Outcasts" book) even goes into detail about how it's really fuckin' weird that Caitiff can do that, and the Tremere (who are basically glorified Caitiff anyway) absolutely hate that Caitiff can manifest Thaumaturgy spontaneously while also being fascinated by it; it's one of the reasons the Tremere like to seek out and study (read: dissect) Caitiff.
Kevin Taylor
Most of those are dated, but: Chicago by Night, Montreal by Night, Cairo by Night, Milwaukee by Night, New York by Night and Mexico City by Night.
Berlin by Night is garbage.
Zachary King
Malkavian. Because if I've got absolutely zero fucking clue what the hell I'm doing, then neither will my enemies. And, hey, if they happen to interpret all of this as some kind of awesome plan to make something in particular happen, we can just go along with that.
They're not uncovering the conspiracy, they're just writing the script for us to follow.
Austin Nelson
Malkavians are great as long as every single one of them isn't portrayed like the protagonist from VtM: Bloodlines. Which, don't get me wrong, I love playing a Malk in that game, but the Malk neonate was great precisely because of how out of it and tone-deaf s/he was compared to everyone else in the game. When every Malkavian acts like that, it gets trite real fast.
Jace Williams
And what most people seem to forget is that the Malk you play in V:tMB is supposed to be a Caitiff. The only reason he even has any tangible links to his Clan is because of his (presumably) low generation. Ergo, being a Fishmalk makes perfect sense because his Sire wasn't there to show him the ropes.
Liam Collins
>is that the Malk you play in V:tMB is supposed to be a Caitiff
Not necessarily. Most vampires, even if they don't know their Sire, are still identifiably part of one Clan or another. Conversely Caitiffs can know exactly who their sire is and still be Caitiffs.
Eli Butler
Christ, I wish VTM was more specific as to what makes a Caitiff.
Depending on context, Caitiffs: 1. Don't have a Clan metaphysically; you possess neither Clan disciplines or weaknesses. It's unknown why this happens, but sometimes, it does. 2. Don't have a Clan socially, because you either abandoned it or you were excommunicated. 3. Have a high generation, which is a misnomer. It's possible to be 14th Gen and still have an identifiable. Conversely, it's possible to be a 9th Gen Caitiff. All 15th Gen Kindred are Caitiff by default, though.
Vampires have three curses: 1. The Curse of Caine, this is required for Vampirism 2. The Curse of Generations, this was inflicted by Caine to try and stop Vampires from killing their sires by making them weaker, as the 3rd generation did. Diablerie is a work-around, where by consuming a soul you can become a lower generation. 3. Clan curses, these were inflicted by Caine on the Antediluvians as a punishment, hence Clan weaknesses.
Type 1 Caitiff have not inherited curse 3, which simply affected the descendants of an Antediluvian. Curse 2, however, applies to all Kindred and so True Caitiff should not be able to break it just because they are not affected by the Clan Curse.
As a side note, not being affected by it would not have them use Blood Potency instead of Generation, it would give them 10 dots in the Generation background, and their Childer 10 dots in Generation, and so on.
Anthony Walker
>high-lethality political PvP campaign >died before break due to DM fiat >now have the option to roll an assamite or tzimisce >conflict
I like the tzimisce more, but assamite & From Marduk's Throat is the only way I'm going to be able to get back on a level playing field without eating half a city in diablerie
Owen Carter
Assamites are awesome. Go Assamite.
Gavin Davis
*still be part of a Clan identifiably
Leo Foster
This'll be pretty off topic, but i'm curious on what you guys think. I bring you a question that has been plaguing my group of players for far too much time, now. Can a Vampire have True Faith?
Jackson Russell
Ventrue, Dominate Malkavians and Gangrel are my favorites.
Thomas Johnson
I liked Assamites until their schism. Doesn't really make sense to worship Allah when the Christian God is confirmed real.
Jacob Stewart
Well, this Toreador at least does. Every clanbook and every core book gives you a different look on a clan-to-clan stereotype, though. The V20 book gives a different stereotype of the Toreador view of the Nosferatu - that "they make a strong case for the Mark of Caine being a sickness." The quote in the Revised book wasn't much more congratulatory. Rather, I think the clanbook went out of its way to show it is not the ONLY opinion the clan has.
There are plenty of stuck-up Toreador who barely tolerate dealing with the Nosferatu, just as there are many who can appreciate what's up with the sewer rats.
Speaking of which, one of my pet peeves is a clan who is composed of the same type of characters with all but zero variation. All Setites (that I've seen) buy into the coolaid - either the home clan's or the Sabbat's..All Tzimisce relish being inhuman fucks - at least after the first year or so.All Giovanni toe the party line.
I can get it with the Harbingers, because they are a handful of fossils who had to deal with the shit they dealt with. An entire major clan? Not so much.
Connor Morales
I was cool with the schism, to be honest. IIRC almost all Assamites follow one Abrahamic religion or another, it is just that supposedly Islam was closer to the path Haqim left for them, so most who weren't hardcore path of blood adherents slipped into it.
Did the cWoD metaplot have empiric evidence that God was not Allah or Yahweh and the Christian version was somehow more true the rest?
Carson Campbell
Allah is the Christian God. It's just not confirmed if Jesus was really his son. Plus there are lots of other gods out there anyway.
Austin Scott
Honestly, I think the Giovanni and the Settites are a little too regional to be one of the thirteen clans. I appreciate the oWoD's handling of Africa - the similarities between the Tzimisce and the Naglopers is delicious, and the differences really emphasize how much Transylvania was the Tzimisce home, while Africa is a place where Naglopers happen to stay.
That said, while I enjoy playing a Tzimisce, I've always thought it essential to the character that one's inhumanity is not a guise worn, but the true self, and should, as such, be hidden around all those who wouldn't appreciate it. A Tzimisce's true self lies in his monstrousness. That isn't something to be shared with anyone.
In short, Tzimisce being openly inhuman fucks is like furries yiffing all over your leg - a tasteless act by someone who is going too far in public, and who should really just shut the fuck up about it. We don't do those things, Carl. We are better than that. Show some fucking self-control.
Also, All Ventrue enjoy being slimy manipulatiors, all Lasombra enjoy being haughtier than thou, and all Ravnos enjoy being blatant liars and thieves. All Gangrel are stoic and stand around and grunt, only to serve as the party beatstick.
Charles Bell
>Also, All Ventrue enjoy being slimy manipulatiors, all Lasombra enjoy being haughtier than thou, and all Ravnos enjoy being blatant liars and thieves. All Gangrel are stoic and stand around and grunt, only to serve as the party beatstick.
The thing is, I have seen in WW material chivalrous and stoic Ventrue, Lasombra zealots who cared more about their faith than about smarminess and domination,and even the odd Ravnos who was not going to be a two-bit huckster. Heck, I think there were even some novel Tzimisce concepts,like a knight chafing under a cruel master's orders or an eco-terrorist in one book or another.
Not with Setites, to the best of my knowledge. Barring the Sabbat ones, they are all devotees to the cult - some more, some less, but all in it. That is the sort of unity that the Tremere would be proud of.
Lucas Williams
Most of the clans got better as time went on, and I liked some of the cracks implicit in the Setites. I'm not going to argue with you about the Giovanni or the Setites - I agree with you on them, and the Samedi, Harbingers, and Serpents of Light were nice touches that needed more expansion.
I would have liked it more if the Baali hadn't looked like Setites at a glance, or if the Setites were semi-inexplicable additions, like the Najarala, but whatever. I like complex lore, and I dislike neat little bows like the Tel-Mahe-Re, or however that's spelled.
Michael Powell
Toreador have one of the best basic Discipline outlays, somewhat mitigated by having a drawback that sucks and comes up often while you're young.
Older Toreador don't have much of an issue with bedazzlement and they have Auspex, Celerity and Presence which basically assures they win social encounters and they can't be snuck up on and even when they are they're damn near impossible to touch.
Old Toreadors are fucking scary, dude, trust. I played one from Dark Ages through to Final Nights and he was the bogeyman. Nobody expects a Toreador to be able to fight as well as one of the Peers of Charlemagne, much less /be/ one.
Luke Morgan
Any vampire experienced enough can be "scary." That shit's entirely subjective.
Brayden Watson
>Nobody expects a Toreador to be able to fight as well as one of the Peers of Charlemagne, much less /be/ one.
Funnily enough, Clanbook: Assamite's Revised edition actually said something to the effect of "If you meet a Toreador, and that Toreador claims to be an expect swordsman, don't even try to take his blood, just nod and smile. And if he looks like he wants to fight you, and you don't have shotguns or grenades, just run."
Basically the Assamite know that the Toreador tend to get really obsessive about whatever they consider to be their "art", and a Toreador who considers swordsmanship to be his "art" will more likely than not be the most dangerous fucker in the room due to autistic levels of devotion to perfecting his craft.
For one game of VtM that I played, my character was a "natural" 8th-Generaton Caitiff.
Here, have a quick 5-page story detailing her Embrace.
(For the record, the game I was playing wasn't so much A World Of Darkness as it was A World Of Ow I Stubbed My Toe Someone Turn On A Damn Light)
Gavin Young
Yes, very subjective
When someone makes a strong vamp character, they often forget the game was designed so the most powerful move is always a carefully elaborated trap
Sometimes, to kill a powerful elder, all you really need is some hidden weapon and a good bluff.
Jayden Rivera
Malkavians, Gangrel and Nosferatu. Malks and Gangrel most of all. "Those" guys that are mostly just tolerated, either because they have really big claws or because they know stuff.
I'm not good at explaining why I like them I just do. For instance, I like that Gangrel are really hard to kill and have big claws and are the monsters that the other monsters don't wanna piss off, because I'm the designated dumb muscle in my group, I also suck at intrigue and plainly dislike all the drama and backstabbing, so Gangrel seem nice and simple in that regard. I also like that they're often written off as dumb animals despite a lot of them being pretty smart, feels relateable after playing dumb all the way through school. I like the hands on approach, and the whole nature thing and their ability to innawoods. At the same time they're not Brujah, which I for some really don't really like. I like them as a thing in the game, but I can't shake the feeling that they're a bunch of retards as much full of shit as the Ventrue and such clans.
Dunno why I like Malkavians, I just really really do. Annoyed by the fact that I will probably never play one well. I like the crazy, I like the cobweb, I like the mad seer thing, I like the sneakiness.
You wouldn't happen to have any snark on the Malks and Gangrels would you?
Easton Morris
Probably Fatal Addiction or Time of Thin Blood.
Adam Mitchell
You get a blood erection from the thrill of it all.
Colton Miller
I want to cum inside Lantla!
Hudson Powell
You're an idiot.
Dominic Jones
I'll just post the screencaps from the PDF I have. I'll throw in the Giovanni too, which is THE number one thing that sold me on Toreador. The Clan's full snark - and full potential - comes into play here, even as the guy narrating admits that the Giovanni are terrifying.
Elijah Walker
In fact, screw it, here's their opinions on all the major Clans.
Really hoping that someone asks the question I want someone to ask
I wish you could edit posts...
Isaac Reyes
I love classic Lasombra and Tzimisce and how they represent the ideology of old nobility. Ventrue could work too but they are too corrupted by the merchant/businessmen archetype of modern elites. I guess it's easier for villanous hispanics and eastern europeans to be a bit more neo-feudal.
Easton Murphy
>all that sabbat wankery It's like the Toreador, Lasombra, and Ventrue are in an eternal contest over who can be the biggest group of stuck-up assholes.
Michael Torres
>Baali >not inherently evil What the fuck am I reading?
Parker Baker
>Did the cWoD metaplot have empiric evidence that God was not Allah or Yahweh and the Christian version was somehow more true the rest? No to all.
That user was either an idiot or posting bait.
Wyatt Thompson
The Assamites are pretty stuck-up too, but they're too secretive for the other clans to know how deep it runs.
Aaron Adams
They got revised a bit later on, as like the earlier-edition Sabbat, they proved themselves too hard to play constructively. The Baali organization, yes, is basically fundamentally evil - but it's "evil" in the way that it feels that it's doing good, because hurrying on the coming of their masters is the greatest mercy they can give the world. It's the good old "the luckiest ones are the ones that get eaten first" pattern - they want to open the gates right now and sweep the world into Hell while their masters are still in a good mood, because not even the Baali want to end up on the receiving end of their anger. They're filled with a lot of self-destructive, self-hating, delusional pseudo-religious lunatics who might want to destroy the world, but who're doing it because they think the alternative is many times worse - their masters are almighty, they'll break out at some point, and the only thing they can do is gain their favor first. There's also a lot of emphasis (at least in newer material) placed on the fact that Daimoinon isn't "drawing power from demons" until dot 3, which is literally reaching into Hell and grabbing a handful of hellfire. Until you actively start using dot 6 and up, too, you aren't actually signing over your soul - just like the Yama Kings with the Scorpion Eaters, the lords of Hell aren't desperate enough that they need your signature for your soul. They've done this for eons and know that they just need time and you'll hand it over yourself. On top of that, Baali are not very well-liked, and as such like to use sleeper agents and clueless neonates to carry out their plans without giving themselves away. There are also a few clues in the lore (given, this is left up to the Storyteller) that a Baali who's tested by a Tremere with Lore of Blood 1 turns up as Salubri - one of the main suspects behind the creation of the Baali is Saulot himself, though there's little to suggest why he'd do it.
