/dcg/ Dropzone/Dropfleet Commander General

Solution: Lysanders have limited troop capacity, like only 2 drops per game or something. But are faster, have stealth/cloak rules, and so-on.

You use them to ninja a point. Possibly with an 'Elite' token or something, if they want to introduce a new troop type.

A "search&extract" objective type, maybe.

Dreadnoughts will be next IMO.

Then probably a special character for each faction.

Then more specialized cruiser variants.

I don't really like it. I have not played enough games to be able to clearly explain why mechanically, but it strikes me as potentially dangerous to balance. I'd much rathermake them able to "scan" a sector to be critical objective as long as it's over there.

I want my command cards / Admiral cards!

How much do they alter dzc?

In my opinion not always in good ways.

You either get shit (Ignore LZ Is Hot) or gamebreaking (monorail)

The decks aren't always equal either. The PHR deck is a little stronger than the UCM Scourge one.

For the most part they just give minors buffs or help kill certain units. Getting black project right before an air run can really give your models more teeth. They aren't really supposed to be game deciders.

The PHR deck was initially better. But the UCM deck can now pull some bullshit given how many aircraft they have now.

Is this game turning out to be pretty balanced? On a continuum of 40k to CB Infinity, where would you put it?

>On a continuum of 40k to CB Infinity, where would you put it?

Wherever "Balanced as a whole, but internal faction balance is shot for the PHR" would lie.

Inter-faction balance in DZC is pretty good, but internal balance within the factions isn't always the best. There's no shortage of bad options, but you can still make lots of unique lists since the game isn't combo-based like 40k or Warmachine. It's not quite as balanced as Infinity, but I find that all the factions feel far more different and varied than most Infinity factions.

DFC just came out and the team is more experienced, so it's better balanced with only a few noticeably bad units in the game. This may change if people discover a big exploit, but I don't think that's likely.

Hopefully dreanoughts. The big guns of the UCM never tire.

Somebody actually made shipsluts for this game, the madman!

I think the faction with the most "bad" units is PHR, every other faction has 1 maybe 2 at the most "bad" units, and by bad people mean subpar not: DONT EVER TAKE THIS.

Honestly, I can't really think of any "bad" units in the UCM or Scourge. Even the Scylla is useful in its own way.

For the PHR, the Perseus is definitely worthless. The Hector is subpar, but still a good ship by inter-faction measures.

For the Shaltari, only the Jade really isn't that good. The Turquoise is also better replaced by the Amber.

How is internal balance shot for the PHR?

There's a common sentiment going around that, outside of the Theseus and maybe the Orion, the entirety of the PHR roster is outclassed by its beam wielding and carrier ships.

But while the bombers are godly, the carriers isn't all that good compared to the other factions.
>Is the Pandora better than the Europa?
>Well I'll be damned.

I think that comment was directed at the PHR DZC lineup, in which several units are just outclassed, or seem kinda meh.

ex: Juno, Janus, Taranis, Ares, Menchit

Honestly, their carriers are pretty solid.

>Scipio/Priam
>4 launch, can outright delete frigates and pull double duty as bombardment

>Bellerophon
>UCM tier laser, 4 launch

>Ikarus
>Equivalent of 5 UCM medium turrets, 4 launch; worse than the Seattle, but not by much

>Andromeda
>mid-range efficiency launch platform.

What's actually more interesting, to me, is the points-per-launch for each carrier; see pic related.
(rounded to nearest one)

That IS interesting.

So, basically, from most efficient to least efficient, we have:

(Sc)Hydra: 28
(Sh)Basalt: 36
(Sh)Platinum: 39
(PHR)Andromeda: 42
(UCM)Seattle: 44
(PHR)Bellerophon: 45
(UCM)New York: 52
(PHR)Scipio: 53
(PHR)Ikarus: 58
(UCM)Atlantis: 68
(Sc)Dragon: 88

Which leads to a few interesting observations:
The Scourge have both the most and least efficient carriers.
The Shaltari are, overall, the most efficient.
The PHR are slightly more efficient than the UCM.
The Atlantis is exceptionally inefficient compared to the rest of the UCM, and if ignored, makes the UCM more efficient than the PHR.

However I think you should also display on that chart how many other non launch weapons those ships have its possible there may be some further interesting things

For reference, a medium is equivalent to a single UCM medium turret.
A heavy is equivalent to a UCM heavy turret banks
A beam is equivalent to a cobra, furnace cannon, twin supernova, or two particle lances.

For example, a Rio would be 2, 1
A Ruby would be 0, 2, 1

I approximated light calibre guns to be approximately 66% of the equivalent medium guns in attacks.

Not really. All the frigates, battleships and battlecruisers are pretty good and broadside battlegroups can be very potent. Achilles is specialised but damned good at her job. It's only really Perseus and maybe Ganymede and Hector that suck.

There's ship stats and CA to consider as well. Bigger ships cost more as a general rule, and there's a big difference between some throwaway wasp drones and shit like the plasma cyclone.

Also New York has no beam weapon but has 2 torps, even if she can't launch them both at the same time.

>The Hector is subpar, but still a good ship by inter-faction measures.

I've proxied a few times, and it's... eh. It's not worth the points.

On approach it has the firepower of a UCM light cruiser, in melee it's an Orion. The extra HP is nice but it's not worth it's staggering cost. I mean, seriously, how is this thing more expensive than the Moscow?

It would be not-awful if it was 160pts, but it still wouldn't be an optimal choice when Orions exist. It needs a serious buff to be worth its current cost.

Hector is just confused. The laser wants to stay back and snipe while the broadsides want to get close, and you can't take advantage of one without fucking up the other. It's not like Ajax where you can afford to not use the shitty half laser once the ship gets stuck in, Hector's laser is a pretty big deal. The only real way I can see to save her is with a big special rule bandaid or a loadout change. Personally I'd get rid of that laser and put a broadside on the bottom that can shoot in either direction. Or maybe a CA weapon. Something to make Hector more potent in a brawl.

>Personally I'd get rid of that laser and put a broadside on the bottom that can shoot in either direction. Or maybe a CA weapon.

Agreed.

Either that or it needs that rule where certain of its weapons get more shots when going Weapons Free.

I'd actually just argue for a buff to its toughness.
As of now, every PHR ship has a flat +1 hull. Instead, give +1 to light ships, +2 to medium, +3 to heavy, and +4 to superheavy (which is what the Minos and Heracles have anyways)

Badaboom, no need to fuck with the Hector's sexy, sexy loadout.

>Hector is overshadowed by Bell because of a schizophrenic loadout
>therefore buff PHR, including Bell
That wouldn't help at all, it would just induce a balance headache and require repricing for half the faction. Hector would still suck at H15 because the alternatives would also be H15 and they'd still be better.

If you don't want to change the loadout (which I don't think Hawk will do for any ship anyway, unfortunate for Perseus) then there's always the rules bandaid or classic price drop. Fusillade would provide some brawling firepower over the Orion.

Just make it so the front turrets on PHR ships can shoot on side arcs, and replace the Hector's laser with a 3-shot heavy turret.

Or, if you think side firing turrets are too much, just give the Hector's medium broadsides more shots.

>That wouldn't help at all
It would reduce the relative proportional gap, and in any case the PHR do not feel at all like the tanky faction they're supposed to be. It's an elegant solution without needing to slap on special rules that aren't represented on the model.

>Fusillade would provide some brawling firepower over the Orion.
On second thought, that would be a pretty good idea for the Orion, Hector, Ajax, and Achilles. Give all of them linked sides like the Ajax, as well as a fusillade on their broadsides.

If it's applied evenly to all ships with homogenous broadsides, it'd be pretty good.

Actually, now that I think about it, fusillade could be a thing that only applies to medium caliber as its gimmick; give every battery fusillade(1) and every broadside fusillade(2); it'll make the Orion better along with the Hector, but at least it will close the gap with the Bell.

No this is dumb. The hector while over costed isn't actually that bad. It shouldn't stray from its faction theme either. If you want flexible weapons play UCM.

The thing with the Hector is with clever positioning it is still very powerful. It is supposed to be a line breaker. You charge in to laser carriers in the back field and open up with its double broadsides on anything else in range. On paper it already has a lot of potential and it has heavy armor and lots of hull as well. .

No one is saying it isn't over costed and it def needs a buff, but throwing a bunch of special snowflake rules on it doesn't make sense and will just make it OP. The Moscow isn't scoring tons of hits even when it goes WF. And the shenlong is only really murderous when you are at point blank. Everything has its strengths and weakness. The hector is just a specialist ship that is harder to use. Give it a 10 points reduction or better drones and that is it.

Why do the PHR need more buffs because a few of their choices are specialized? A lot of their ships are already very powerful. Their lights are top notch. There is nothing wrong with their mediums save for the perseus. The bell is one of the best ships in the game why does it need a further buff.

[balance headaching intensifies]
Just drop the price mang, that's all it really needs. Buffing the whole faction doesn't help at all.

>Why do the PHR need more buffs because a few of their choices are specialized?
Because they really don't feel like the tanky faction; a single extra hull point (and thus a single extra hull before crippling) is the margin of error for pretty much any primary ship weapon. I'd pay an extra 10-15 points for that.

See Fusillade as medium calibre's gimmick makes perfect sense, especially if you apply it only to full medium broadside ships, rather than including the Ikarus, Theseus, and Ganymede.

Its a 1 hull points and armor save that make them the tanky. They are significantly more durable that both the scourge and shaltari. It is the just the UCM they are near equals with.

They still have a lot of firepower as well.

Medium broadsides aren't the problem, they're good on the Orion and buffing them will only lead to more issues. The Hector itself is the problem.

They feel pretty tanky to me. 3+ saves on nearly everything, 5 ships with heavy cruiser stats and only one light, an extra hull point across the board. It adds up. They're not a massive level above UCM, but UCM are pretty tanky themselves. Again, big sweeping changes across the whole faction aren't really needed and will make more problems than they'll solve.

>Medium broadsides aren't the problem, they're good on the Orion and buffing them will only lead to more issues. The Hector itself is the problem.

The problem is that if any change were to be made, it would have to be consistent across all comparable ships. It would break the mould to give rules to the Hector that aren't represented on model.

If it gets a buff to its medium broadsides, the Orion does too. If it gets a buff for being a heavy cruiser, so too does the Bellerophon and the Achilles.

The only two possible changes I can really see are either fusillade on medium broadsides (which is acceptable, since the Hector and Orion aren't competing for slots anyways) or a simple price reduction, but the latter is boring.

Learn to appreciate boring. A boring fix comes in, does the job and leaves without fucking anything up. An interesting fix might do the job, but it might also piss in the sink or set the cat on fire or something. Boring is reliable and means that resources can be spent elsewhere on things designed to be interesting from the ground up.

True, but it's mostly just for the sake of me really liking fusilade as a mechanic and wanting to see it on something

>Three weeks with no response from email

Challenge for today, thread; design alternate gun combat frigates for the factions.

>Charleston class frigate
>UF-2220 turret: ...
>UF-500 battery: 5+ lock; 4 attack; 1 damage; F/S(L)
>UF-500 battery: 5+ lock; 4 attack; 1 damage; F/S(R)
>Barracuda Missiles

>Geist class frigate
>Occulus Rays: ...
>Occulus Lance: 3+ lock; 1 attack; 1 damage; F; flash
>Plasma Cloud

>Atlanta class frigate
>Heavy Calibre Bank: 3+ lock; 1 attack; 1 damage; F/S(L); calibre(H&S), linked-1
>Heavy Calibre Bank: 3+ lock; 1 attack; 1 damage; F/S(R); calibre(H&S), linked-1
>Mosquito Drones

>Agate class frigate
>Ion Battery: 5+ lock; 3 attack; 1 damage; F; linked-1
>Ion Battery: 5+ lock; 3 attack; 1 damage; F/S(L); linked-1
>Ion Battery: 5+ lock; 3 attack; 1 damage; F/S(R); linked-1
>Harpoon Volley

I'm trying to figure out a 1500 point Scourge list that doesn't use a battleship and I'm having a hard time doing it. Does anyone have any advice on the matter?

You should be looking at destroyers. Plenty of frigate class ships to go around already.

Charleston, too powerful as a frigate.
Geist - did u mess this one up?
Atlanta - This one is weird. I don't think 1 damage a turn is worth while as there are nto enough large or heavy ships in the fight.
Agate also too powerful as a frigate
The shenlong and basilisk are great ships to fill out your points. Their cloak powers are arguably more useful.

honestly is there that much of a problem with the PHR, do they have issues winning games, are they underpowered? Seems to me like nothing in this game feels tanky, you're always a good weapons free away from being crippled.

Please don't, random deck of suprise powerups is never good idea. I was shit when Spartan did it, and it's still shit when Dave tries to force his lovechild into his new games too.

I suspect it's a matter of playstyle being subtly different.
Troopships being basically a well protected combat cruiser is a huge deal: Everyone else's troopships are basically just targets.
Belleraphons are pretty crazy optimized.

Ajax, Orion and Theseus are all solid, though people need to probably worry less about double broadsides and more about controlling engagement angles.

Reduced need to go weapons free means they brawl a lot better than enemy cruisers.

its not that bad dude seriously, also it has always been, and will always be optional in both games

Actually, it's optional to not use them, they're recommended. Which is bad, because they are never balanced or good.

They are recommended because it gives leaders some more utility instead of just being a tax to win the int game. They are also supposed to add in some flavor to the factions.

They are literally optional though. If you don't have the intestinal fortitude to say "hey bro I don't like playing with command cards" that is your problem.

Dude, if you don't want them, don't use them.

They are tanky compared to the Shaltari and Scourge. And those extra hull points can sometimes edge you out over UCM when it comes to avoiding the crippling table.

Personally, though, I do feel like certain of their ships should be tougher to live up to their points cost and role.

The Hector should have that hardened armour special rule or it should be way less points. The Achilles should not cost more than the Moscow, it's simply not as good. The Perseus is legit useless and needs a total redesign, there is no place for it in any list.

Once more big ships come out the Achilles will be a mainstay. Especially if some of these dreads have reinforced armor or regen. The Preseus will get some more utility as well.

Hector just needs a points drop of 10

That'd put it at 3 points cheaper than the Moscow though, and it feels weird for the PHR to have a cheaper ship than any other faction's ship in the same tonnage and purpose. I'd honestly just drop it down to 165.

Related, is it just me, or does it bug anyone else horribly that the Beijing, Moscow, Madrid, Seattle, Osaka, Cairo, Sanfran, Orion, and Theseus are the only S/H/M ships in the game that don't have points costs in multiples of 5?
ALL superheavies except the Beijing are multiples of 5.
ALL heavies except the Moscow are multiples of 5.
Pretty much all mediums are multiples of 5, except for the UCM utility cruisers and light cruisers, and the Orion and Theseus.

It's just me being autistic really, but I can't shake the feeling that it means that pretty much everyone except the UCM isn't as well balanced, points wise, and that Hawk defaulted to the nearest 5 to get everything done on time.
I highly doubt that the overwhelming majority of all non-frigates happen to have their proper points cost landing on 5, and if they do, it just seems proper for it to be a consistent trend.

>That'd put it at 3 points cheaper than the Moscow though

...Which makes sense, because it is not remotely as good as the Moscow.

Reinforced Armour makes that torpedo on the front really risky.

If you don't crit with it, there's a good chance the enemy will make their save. Reinforced Armour makes it dangerously difficult to score a crit. Even if your lock value is 2+, that means you need a 5+ to crit, and torps don't get many dice.

A wasted torpedo is a huge loss. I would never fire it at a ship with Reinforced Armour.

Which is an issue, because it flies against the entirety of the PHR's design philosophy for a ship to be inferior/cheaper to any other comparable ship. It's inconsistent with the rest of their stuff.

There is no reason that one faction might actually have a better ship in one specific class despite overall lower performance. Sometimes your planners just get a leg up on the enemy by chance or being smarter for once.

Hector makes sense. I've had many games where my Berlin for example, aims at an enemy ship and eventually gets into point blank of it, while firing lasers.

A Hector is tougher, has the same laser, and then once at that range opens up with both broadsides at whatever it wants. It's a brawler, that actually has a weapon that allows it to close properly.

Shaltari ships are probably the most unpleasant thing I've ever put together. This is awful

Frigates were a bit of a pain but I thought the cruisers were alright.

Remember boys and girls; The thicker yhe paint on your models, the more hull points it gets.

>shipping notification

Oh thank fuck, I might actually be able to have the 2 starter fleets painted for pax south.

Agreed. Not many people have figured out how it can be more effective because they are too busy just deriding it. The bell is a better ship but the hector has plenty of use.

So I've spray primed and chrome base coated all of my Scourge.

I've started with ghost tints, trying to recreate the Hawk default color scheme. Picture attached of my attempts.

Number 1. Sprayed ghost tint green over the whole piece, then added Magenta over the top. Made it dark red. Doesn't look right.

Number 2. Painted part green, and part magenta, only overlap is in the middle.
Still doesnt look right.

Compare this to the Hawk color scheme. What am i missing here...

For reference.

The red/magenta looks quite different... But magenta is the recommended ghost tint from the hawk painter

I think they did that using a wash method, not spraying (could be wrong) have you tried watering down the the tints and applying them in very thing layers via brush?

Did you do a black wash on the pieces after you base coated them?

haven't tried, but can't imagine this would change the look?
Black wash on the chrome, or on the tinted layers?

So with the Avalon... the gun's awesome, everyone knows that. But don't discount going weapons free after you're already lit up. 4 medium mass drivers is actually really solid firepower. You're getting a whole PHR cruiser broadside, in more flexible arcs.

Had the guy one-shot an enemy heavy cruiser with both weapons rolling hot in a game over the xmas break.

I think if you watered the paint down to a very thin layer it would pool a little, and youd get less coverage in flat surfaces which would require far more layers to get it done which might let more of the chrome show through and provide a better metallic feel, basically more of a tint to the chrome rather than covering completely.

From your pictures it looks like the method your using covers the basecoat fairly solidly.

On the chtome, then put on the tints.

that a toulon wing on the side there?

The ship seemed a bit--- front heavy without something to give it other dimensions. Thought it made sense to use surplus bits for such a 'big deal' ship to increase it's physical presence.

Im sensing a guilty conscience.

Dont sweat it, looks neat

No, I hadn't done this. I can try.

So, how's this?

Weird points costs mean I come out 18 points short but I have 6 cruiser hulls and a decent objective presence.

SR10 Vanguard battlegroup (180pts)
1 x Bellerophon - 180pts - H

SR15 Line battlegroup (337pts)
1 x Orion - 107pts - M
2 x Ikarus - 230pts - M

SR12 Pathfinder battlegroup (256pts)
2 x Medea - 78pts - L
2 x Theseus - 178pts - M

SR7 Pathfinder battlegroup (208pts)
1 x Orpheus - 130pts - M
2 x Medea - 78pts - L
------------- dflist.com -------------

So I'm about to start a PHR Dropzone army, I'm going to order one of the starter sets but given I'm having to pay postage anyway (unless the order triples in value in which case I don't) I was wondering what's good to compliment that starter with?
I've yet to have a game but I've watched a few and read through the rulebook.

Did something similiar with PHR heavys and frigate fins.

So, opinions on the skulltaker?

I want to have the ability to go for far-away objectives as a Feral Resistance, so MFR is out of the question.

At the moment I'd want to put it in my scout unit with attack ATVs and freeriders but that would mean it's going to start way far behind.

Has anyone tried putting Veterans in single jacksons and sending them through the drill instead?

ah shit disregard that last one, I forgot that was only an option with that allied famous one

It's pretty awesome. The flying flame thrower is great and the lifthawk chassis is durable enough to make sure your elites get in there

What this user said . However, be aware that Berzerkers get penalties to searching for objectives and intel, so they may not be the best in that regard, but they are certainly good at killing everything in a building - which does deny the enemy their chance to search, so it does even out a bit.

If you load it up with two units, it's a fair chunk of points. The Lifthawk is tough, but not invincible, so you still gotta be careful with it.

yeah

The unit it's part of has Freeriders and attack ATVs coming in from a drill

It's hopefully going to be great at denying an objective or taking one far from the home edge

ATVs can smoke the place out if it's not safe for the freeriders to enter, while the skulltaker zooms in to flame it out again before deploying berserkers and locking it down

if I can't get the objective as you said, I can at least keep the enemy from taking it.

I just finished building my first UCM cruiser... and is it me, or are the build instructions supplied for it completely retarded in the order they choose?

Like, step 1 being construct the hull is fine, but in no way should you be fiddling about with antennae by step 2, all of that shit should be the final touching up step, with the exception of the one thats embedded in between the two hull pieces.
Adding the "roof" of the hull at this point wouldn't be amiss either.

Then for the Outriggers you should DEFINITELY be building those before you stick them on rather than just hoping blindly that the two peices will fit together with the final one.

Only THEN, after you've done all that shit, should you be adding the Guns and the Antennas.

Weirdly it's not universal, the PHR cruiser instructions make perfect sense. Although it could stand to add the maneouvering fins at the end instead of first as you're less likely to nudge any out of position when you're fitting in the guns and the chin.

I'm deeply concerned what the Shaltari stuff is going to be like to put together now.

I do hull, roof, assemble wings, attach wings, guns, antennae. I've just ignored the one that goes between the two hull pieces, I like like he cleaner look it gives the middle.

I assume everyone follows the instructions exactly twice, and then does things however they want going forward.

I'm just annoyed because the most important use of the instructions is the differentiation between classes and that's almost invisible with some (looking at you, shenlong...)