Cheating in MTG

Have you ever seen someone cheat in Magic?

Have you ever done it yourself?

youtube.com/watch?v=GROBM7_TXyU

>Years and years ago.
>Settling down to play magic tournament.
>Guy I'm playing is like a caricature of a Veeky Forums fatbeard
>I think I can actually see flies buzzing around him.
>Stench is like a physical wave.
>Ask him what the fuck, because I was like 12 or 13 and had yet to grasp how to be subtle.
>He never had either, and smugly grins, and says that he never showers for about a week before tournaments, because it causes people to forfeit games against him.

>strategy
>cheating
Learn the difference.

It should really count as a loss or be grounds for disqualification if someone pulls that shit.

>Matched against some asberger
>First round drags out pretty long, we both are trying to-out control each other but I eke out a victory
>Second round I get mana screwed, he wins pretty quickly
>He extends his hand, "good game", Starts packing up his shit
>Argue for 5 minutes that that was only the 2nd round.
>"whatever you say, we could play a 4th"
>Puts me on tilt, end up losing anyways.

I used to peek at the bottom card of my opponent's deck while shuffling and make sure it was important before sending it back to them.

Then some pro got caught for doing almost the exact same thing and banned for 4 years.

I stopped.

CALL A JUDGE

I once accidentally cheated in a casual EDH game. My deck ran both Twincast and Redirect and they both have a similar art by glance, along with the same mana cost so I accidentally cast my Redirect as Twincast and nobody noticed. Later I drew my actual copy of Twincast, realised my mistake and just decided to never cast it so others wouldn't notice my mistake.

Yet somehow there'd be an exception for smokers.

Yes, because nonsmokers are giant whiny bitches about smoking. As an ex-smoker I get game breaking nicotine cravings whenever anyone smokes or smells like smokes. I even have a legitimate reason to tell then to Fuck off. I dont because I believe people should do what they want, and cancer is a fine punishment for smelling disgusting.

Stop being such a giant whiny bitch about your cravings.

>I believe people should do what they want,
I want to tell smokers to fuck off. Thanks for the endorsement.

>and cancer is a fine punishment for smelling disgusting.
Or being fool enough to play against a smoker?

If you had reasonable expectations and a nondraconian understanding of social interaction it would be an issue, but as evidenced by your post, you're going to be a hypochondriac about anything and shouldn't be taken seriously.

>Have you ever seen someone cheat in Magic?
Not personally, no. I have however told opponents to not put all their lands in a single pile on top of each other when tapping and such because that makes it extremely hard to keep track of how much mana they tapped for and even how many lands they have in play.

If they didn't stop after I called them a little butt monkey I'd call a judge.

>i am allowed to complain about smokers, but no one else is

Have you ever played magic? Rules lawyers would take it way too far all the time.

>"JUUUUDGE! This guy stepped out side and walked within 15 meters of a guy smoking a cigarette, I demand he be disqualified with extreme prejudice."

>I once accidentally cheated in a casual EDH game
You can't accidentally cheat. Cheating is defined by intent in MtG.

This also means that it's technically possible to play perfectly correct according to the rules but still receive a game loss or disqualification due to cheating if it turns out that you thought you didn't but went with it still because it was beneficial to you.

And yet, instead of acting like a reasonable person, you sarcastically greentext, proving with absolute finality that you're a child and should not be taken seriously.

I'm willing to have a reasonable discussion if you are, but I don't expect you to engage anyone seriously based on the fact that you've done nothing but put others down.

>I realized that my point is retarded but I'm still going to be smug and mock him for fucking greentexting on Veeky Forums

Don't be too harsh, his smoker lungs keep his brain from getting enough oxygen.

>based on the fact that you've done nothing but put others down.
Wow, look at this, someone bitching about smoking is a fancy nancy boy who whines about being insulted on an anonymous image board.

>Cheating is defined by intent in MtG.
Technically false.

>if it turns out that you thought you didn't but went with it still because it was beneficial to you.
Actually even if you played correctly and knew you were playing correctly you still could get a DQ for cheating.

Alright, I'm game.

Premise: Smoking in moderation is fine and should be allowed in Magic tournaments.

Supporting point 1: Assuming smoking is done outside in moderation, there is little impact on either player, other than a moderately unpleasant smell. This is not analogous to someone who hasn't showered for weeks, or is visibly filthy because it is assumed that they have otherwise good hygiene.

Supporting Point 2: By codifying a rule against smokers, people are going to abuse that rule, making it extend to anyone who smells like cigarettes. This will create an inherently biased system against anyone who lives with a smoker, or has to walk by smokers to play magic, since there is no way of determining whether someone who smells like cigarettes actually smokes, because the smell is the bigger issue.

>Assuming smoking is done outside in moderation, there is little impact on either player, other than a moderately unpleasant smell.
Wrong. Second hand smoke kills.

>This is not analogous to someone who hasn't showered for weeks, or is visibly filthy because it is assumed that they have otherwise good hygiene.
The smoker is literally a health hazard. The unhygienic player is just unpleasant. Don't shake their hand, don't let them shuffle your deck, and they aren't a health hazard, unlike the smoker.

>This will create an inherently biased system against anyone who lives with a smoker, or has to walk by smokers to play magic,
Immigration systems are inherently biased against perfectly innocent and good people who just happen to live in shithole countries. Yet nobody in their right mind is opposed to them. Because we don't want that shit here and having a policy that ignores that will kill people here.

If you want others to have a real discussion with you instead of flinging fallacies and insults around you're going to have to extend the same courtesy to them.

You realize that secondhand smoke is being around a smoker WHILE they're smoking, right?

>Wrong. Second hand smoke kills.
Irrelevant to the premise. Smoking is unhealthy. Second hand smoking is unhealthy. The supporting point stated that smoking in moderation outside was acceptable by virtue of common by-law.

>The smoker is literally a health hazard. The unhygienic player is just unpleasant. Don't shake their hand, don't let them shuffle your deck, and they aren't a health hazard, unlike the smoker.
Purple rhetoric, appeal to emotion. Has nothing to do with the argument being presented.

>Immigration systems are inherently biased against perfectly innocent and good people who just happen to live in shithole countries. Yet nobody in their right mind is opposed to them. Because we don't want that shit here and having a policy that ignores that will kill people here.
Non-sequitur, appeal to emotion, appeal to authority, purple rhetoric. Please address the central point in the argument and each supporting point.

I'm kind of disappointed, I had hoped you took at least 1 course on formal argumentation. I even separated it into premise and supporting points for easy reading.

Actually 48% of harmful smoke lingers, much of it longer than the detectable smell even.

The supporting points are both wrong, as was explained to you and as you had no rebuttal for, and the baseless premise is wrong and rationally invalid.

Used to play EDH against a guy that would stack his deck using an easy to see shuffling trick to look at what he was shuffling and position it higher up, was incredibly upset when confronted about it.

I would also cheat all the time when playing against my younger brothers, by stacking their decks for them

>Autism, the thread

Sure, but you're telling me somebody going and smoking outside in a secluded area and then walking inside carries enough harmful smoke to constitute secondhand smoke?

I don't know who you are currently debating with, but I am Personally I agree that smoking should be allowed during magic tournaments, with the condition that it only be done outside. Based on your previous posts I had assumed that you were opposed to smoking at tournaments due to issues with your cravings.

>asiangirlslaughing.jpeg
Look user, I know you're kiddie shoes, but if you want to formally argue with someone, read this chart. You aren't allowed to do anything contained in this chart when arguing, and you need to make sure you address the central point in each argument if you want a serious reply.

>t. someone with a degree in bullshit

...

I'm glad to see we're on the same page. I don't care if people smoke, as long as they're smoking outside, and they don't have a pocket full of dirty relights.

>implying anything I said was in that pic not a chart

I'd add the provisio 'Between matches'. No taking up time to go have a smoke break. Still, if it's outside/they are not smoking something that will fuck them up I don't care too much.

user, I specifically outlined which fallacies, though that chart doesn't include non-sequitur, which refers to subsequent points being irrelevant to the actual argument, or not directly related to the premise being presented, and purple rhetoric, which is writing intentionally flowery things for an appeal to emotion.

Completely reasonable, I agree with that entirely, assuming "between matches" means at the completion of their match before the next round begins.

I would have to read the tournament guidelines again to remind myself what the procedures are for when someone needs to leave in the middle of a match, but I think it's reasonable to not make exceptions for smoke breaks. I despise people who act like they are entitled to take smoke breaks from anything at any time.

Yeah, that. As long as it's not 'Hey, I'll take my turn right after I have a 5 min smoke break'. As that's time wasting and these things are on a schedule.

>all these autists going on about smokers
>because the bag of doritos and bottle of pop are better for you than smoking

Correct.

>user, I specifically outlined which fallacies,
Yeah, I know, I can read. Strawman.

lmao
1. fallacies belong in science and formal oxford debates, not discussing smoking on fucking Veeky Forums of all places
2. you have just committed the fallacy fallacy
3. your entire supporting point 2 is ridiculous slippery slope bullshit with no grounds in reality. smoking is not allowed in most restaurants, and yet smokers are allowed to enter as long as they don't smoke inside. it would obviously be the same with tournaments.

I don't even have a side in this discussion but I just can't handle this amount of pretentious reddit bullshit in one place

When I smell your doritos and pop, I feel hungry/thirsty.

When I smell your smoke, I'm being poisoned.

well they probably don't cause literal cancer in you and everyone around you so that's one difference

Last night at prerelease played a guy. He's a regular and does magic a lot at the store.- I am not. I am more a casual player.
His deck is vastly superior to mine and he thumps me.
Next match I luckily get the prefect hand and play(s) AND my opponent gets mana screwed. I win- but still struggle (cause my deck is shit) even with the advantage!
Very worried about last match because the chances are good that I will lose.

Guy must be demoralized to something, and says "Grats that's game"
I pause then reply "Don't we have another match?"
He says "No you won two"
Not sure if I asked a second time, but being the greedy fuck I am, don't press the issue too hard and say thanks for the game and report my win.

Went 4-1 because of this guy and an earlier bye round. Guy goes 3-2.
Feel guilty? But I did Ask?

Awaiting judgement.

Non-sequitur! Appeal to emotion! Purple rhetoric! Haven't you even taken 1 course on formal argumentation kiddie?

>my sides
Still not an argument. Google Argumentation Theory, and you can use the information not only to call people idiots more effectively, but also get better grades in school.

Maybe he was right and there was another game you won but forgot about? Can happen if you're feeling worried.

There's a difference between formal and informal arugments user. Presenting premises with supporting points is formal argumentation and requires a step by step deconstruction. Just stating something on the internet requires an informal response, and thus formal rules of argumenation aren't applicable, which means that you can point out the logical fallacies, but it has no effect beyond pointing it out. In a formal argument, logical fallacies disqualify your argument, and require correction before your argument is going to be considered.

Non-sequitur.

tu quoque, fallacy fallacy, hypocrisy

See, you're getting better. If you really wanted to rustle my jimmies you would say that it's an appeal to authority because I'm using the formal rules of argumentation to validate my argument.

Many logical fallacies can be applicable, it's more important to know which one is the most obvious, and which will produce the most salt.

>If you really wanted to rustle my jimmies you would say that it's an appeal to authority because I'm using the formal rules of argumentation to validate my argument.
Wrong is wrong. Anything more specific is trivial.

black-or-white, appeal to emotion

>Anything more specific is trivial.
Well, depends on how much of a shit disturber you are. I've seen people crumble in formal debates because people call them on their shit, explain it, then they spend the whole time arguing about why they didn't commit a fallacy, instead of actually presenting an argument.

Players are allowed to concede at any time (except for after winning). If you asked him something along the lines of "Are you sure?" and he said something along the lines of "Yes." then everything is kosher. He conceded the third game.

God that's the most annoying shit. Why do people even do it if not to cheat?

I had an opponent do the stacking lands thing and generally messing about with them, then tapped a bunch for an expensive spell and the handful left over for a cheap spell. I counted, and he'd tapped one too few for the big spell.

I pointed it out, he fixed it and had to skip the cheap spell. Mistake or intentional? I think it was deliberate, but no proof.

High fructose corn syrup causes cancer. Albeit just in you and not those who don't eat/drink it

Honestly, yeah. I often cheat in casual games when my deck just wont get running, just to keep games interesting. I make stupid gimmicky decks, and I still lose even when I cheat a lot of the time.
Also at a prerelease one time I needed a specific card or I would lose the next turn, I saw it was on the bottom of my deck and snuck it into my hand when nobody was looking, winning the match and cheating the guy out of a pack. I honestly feel awful about doing it but I can never admit to it for fear of being banned.

And forcing your opponent to consume it would get you DQ'd.

Finally we have an accurate analogy!

OCD is my guess. All those cards sitting on the playmat at random angles and distances from each other.

A lot of people play magic stoned, and when you're Stoned you do tend to make more genuine mistakes

>I honestly feel awful about doing it but I can never admit to it for fear of being banned.
Then why did you do it?

Well no lol, the smell from smoke doesn't give cancer just the smoke itself, so if they go outside away from you that's entirely reasonable

Bad impulse control.

This guy was a smoker, not a stoner.

Very true. Onetime I drafted a full playset of lightning axes thinking they were lava axes. I felt like a tard when my opponent told me.

Poor user...

>appeal to emotion
Literally pathos, one of the cores of rhetoric. The rest are fine though.

Middle ground fallacy.

>second hand smoke kills
Literal meme.

Rhetoric is based around captivating and convincing audiences, logical fallacies are based around pointing out false jumps in logic.

You can have amazing speaking skills and make an audience cry and empathize through your emotional rhetoric, that doesn't mean that what you're saying is logical or correct.

Appeal to ridicule.

I sort of do it in a couple of my EDH decks, because I wind up having 15+ basics of the same type on the field, so I put those in a stack by themselves. I always make a point to count out how many I have on my upkeep and very deliberately separate them into stacks when I tap them, i.e. picking up the stack and counting them like bills.

Never had any complaints, and when people want to know how many lands I have open, I tell them.

>Builds bad decks
>cheats
>STILL looses
Veeky Forums

ITT

Depends - would you qualify throwing a game for prize split (or other compensation) as cheating ?

Worse! Much, much worse!


I play dredge.
In. Every. Format.

When I was playing Pokémon tcg I used to put energy upside-down so I could tell if my next draw card was marked or not.

Then I thought about it and realized I pretty much never gained an advantage from the extra information and stopped.

>Have you ever seen someone cheat in Magic?
>Have you ever done it yourself?
Yes, I netdeck all the time.

>black-or-white
Sorry, forgot reality is a spectrum.

Ditto. I've even encountered it here.

hello desolator

What ever happened to Jackie Lee? Was she banned? Or has she just not done anything notable now that people are suspicious of her?

She was picked by WOTC to represent "the community" in the MTGO Community Cup and then employed as a Magic developer and designer.

Have a story was some scumfag cheated against me in a pptq
>Be in round 6
>Have 2 losses, but can still make top 8 long as I win next 3 rounds
>Have confidence in my brew, long as I don't go against ramp, worst match up for me with Ugin around
>3rd game of the match, against azorius control
>Poking him down slowly with deathmist raptor and 2 goblin tokens
>Only thing sustaining him is a single sheep that gains him 1 life per turn and blocks one of my gobbos
>Get him down low enough that if he blocks a goblin, I can atarka command and win game game exact, especially since he tapped out previous turn to draw stuff.
>Go in for the swing, he declares blockers, goblin like always and DM and other ones going through.
>Alright, go for my spell in hand, pick up my hand and look for the a command and cast it.
>Look back at board.
>His sheep is no longer on gob but on deathmist raptor, which makes no sense cause that would mean voluntarily killing your sheep and he already declared blocker on goblin
>I'm like WTF, I even checked with him that he blocked the gob to make sure I had leathal.
>Now this asshole lives with 2 health
>Try to get a judge but he tells me he can't do anything cause the boardstate dictates he blocked raptor, and I can't even call back my a-command cause it technically is still legal to cast it, which I would have held back on if he did block raptor initially to make sure I don't get screwed by lifegain effects of he had any
>So ginormous faggot takes his turn, and oh, looks there, top decks resolute archangel, going from 2 to 20 life.
My anger was immeasurable that day as he got back into the game cause control does that late game and I ended up having to scrub out round 6 cause of his shit.
He then promptly loses his next round and drops as well, I mean if your going to cheat at least win asshole.

get high on shrooms

We have this neckbeard judge at our lgs, weird guy. He keeps cracking horrible puns but never laughs at other people's jokes and has a habit of randomly ignoring what somebody said for no reason. Whenever I play against him he always has this super serious monitoring look on his face and it makes me sweat bullets because I feel like he will ban me any moment for shuffling the wrong way or whatnot and I end up messing up steps (draw before untap etc) out of stress.

My friends all know I cheat, and they cheat too. None of us really care.

In high school there was a kid with a vampire deck who always opened with the same hand. It was so obvious, and, whenever we called him on it, he would through a fit and pout for a while. He was annoying.

Most cheating I ever did was, if I happened to catch a glance at a good card at the bottom of my deck whilst ruffle shuffling (honestly always accidentally), if I was already gearing up to stop shuffling, I'd throw in a "good measure" overhand shuffle at the end.

Sometimes this assured my own defeat.

Be me a 38 year old retired Marine. Rarely play MTG played a lot in high school in 1990s. My son talks me into playing in a booster draft. Win first game. Win second game. 12 year old boy I am playing against simply lies to obese neckbeard comic shop guy/event coordinator that is entering results into computer. I ask why I have a recorded lost? Comic Shop guy says he can't change results once entered.

I confront 12 year old boy. He says He forgot. I Want to beat the boy. Former Marine beats 12 year old cheater. City throws parade.

Instead I stayed in the match and managed to come in 3rd place beating the cheater (who I supervised all his win reporting by walking next to him).

Some guy recently got caught cheating at my FLGS at the prerelease.
Who cheats at a prerelease? Honestly?
His sealed pool had (at least) 20 non-foil uncommons in it.

This same guy a few years ago was accusing a new player of cheating at a prerelease "because too many of his rares were on color"

This same guy has also told me about how he's "been watching guides on how to cheat shuffle people's decks to give them a bad start" whilst he's shuffling my deck.
"But don't worry, I wouldn't really do that"

People who responds to arguments with claims of logical fallacies should be fucking shot.

It's like when you're having a conversation with someone and they decide to just spout random memes when they realize they can't argue back.

>It's like when
No, it literally is when

this reminds me of the story of a dude that marked certain cards with his face grease. Someone please post it if you have it screenshotted

What's up dude. Remember to boycott Aether Revolt because it's overpowered, and banning Smuggler's Coptor was the worst thing to happen to magic.