How to deal with player's non-uniform dice

As somebody who only uses gamescience dice, stop being such a faggot holy shit.

It isn't a goddamn competition.

>I always handed out dice to use from gamescience that are "fair" as possible
Not subtle enough, OP.

Post your dice.

You require them to use dice that you provide? What are you, some kind of turbo-autist?

Now now. I would like to pay doubles abdicate for a moment. What if the player intends to cheat and show of his wealth at the same time? It would be like stoning to birds in a hand. Its a doggy dog world out there and the OP is between Iraq and a hard plaice. So we should give OP the benefit of the redoubt.

This was fun to read.

By filling a sock with all your gay little dice and forcing you to eat it after I smack your ugly ass around with it.

I mean I literally cannot imagine ever caring about statistics of dice balance enough to buy gamescience dice let alone to care so much as to insist that all the people at the table use them.

Aren't those things crazy sharp, the handfeel would be all wrong, plus the sound is weird and they're too light.

If a player is cheating on their rolls it's on them, they're just making the game less fun for themselves, unless it starts to impact another player what should I care as a gm?

Who the fuck cares?

Would running a casino, technically, fall under Veeky Forums.
They are games, kinda, and as traditional as anything that gets talked in here.

The "unfairness" of using a different dice set is so low it's a non-issue. If he's willing to invest in a set to call his own, instead of having to borrow yours, he obviously likes playing. Stop being a control freak and let your players have some "unscheduled fun" for fuck's sake.

Dial back your 'tism and let him use his preferred dice.

I don't care about who uses what dice, but I actually like the feel of gamescience more, just wish they were a little heavier.

its just a game, man
youre taking this too seriously

I think gambling is pretty traditional but casinos are a hard business to run actually.
t. son of someone that used to own a casino

So does that make you auto in the mob or was your dad low enough that you don't get membership?

I have no idea what you are talking about user, I am a legitimate business man just like my dad before me and my grandad before him.
Nice try, FBI.

Most people don't even roll the dice properly anyway.

This is the most autismal OP since the mahjong table.

OP here. I have experiences in the past with people who melted their dice and other Bullshit. Yes it is a very tough campaign and TPK is something I'm not afraid of.

The reason is simply for fairness and also there is no need for cosmetic DLC in a tabletop game. If I let him use his unfair dice that he has full access to rig and file down, it becomes P2W.

now that's what i call bait

>cosmetic DLC

2/10, see me after class

This is an idiot test.

Can you read a chart? Yes, your fucking shitty cool looking dice are shitty. Get that fucking shit off my table and roll goddamn gamesciences or use a legit RNG program.

I am the maddest I have ever been in my entire life

>greatest difference in average value from expected is 0.25
Fuck me, people spend money to prevent a 0.25 drift in average rolls?

The lack of source or description of experimental method makes the graph no better than an anonymous poster on a subforum of a weeabo website's lies, tho

Gamescience dice are only slightly more random than than regular dice. Even if Gamescience is correct, their product is not much better in empirical testing. Stop sweating it.

markfickett.com/stuff/artPage.php?id=389

>he doesn't even follow the latest studies in dice fairness
>he still posts in a thread about dice fairness

I have a PHD in this and you have a kindercare degree yet you still shat up the thread with bad posts.

I use a bag of gamescience dice that have been carefully trimmed. The bag further increases randomization as each roll is from a new dice.

4/10

Got me to post.

What kind of game are you running? I'm seeing a lot of negativity in the thread, but honestly I think there is a time and a place for fair rolls. If it's DnD, the point is to have fun and do improve, make up bad plans and see if you can make them work. It shouldn't be too lawyeristic. If you're doing something competitive like Warmachines or some shit, I think you're totally fine to dictate dice.

>chessex marbled green destroying most gamescience dice by hundredths of a percentile
Holy shit gamescience get it together.

ITT: Autists.
You're all fucking Autists.
RNGesus rolled low on each and every one of your chromosome counts.
Maybe it's cus he wasn't using his gamescience dice to eliminate that .00000000000000000000000000000001 deviation that's totally relevant outside a casino, and dubiously so there.

Holy balls batman, the autism is off the charts.
If this is what you care about in your RolePlaying games then I think you're playing the wrong game.

you're an asshole t b h just let him use his cool dice.

like seriously wtf calm down. it's a game.

>gamescience

You're a fucking faggot for giving Louis Zocchi money, OP,

Might as well use a random number generator on a laptop then if you're that worried about it, faggot

No, they've said more than once that it's a tabletop RPG, not something competitive.

Only time I've banned some dice from my rpgs or warham games is if the dice are really hard to read from a moderate distance. I have retired some 20-30 d6's of my own for this reason too.

How autistic are you, OP?

Don't worry about it user. I can tell you for sure that any casino not run by thieves would quickly be run out of business by other thieves that went unrecognized.

People don't have a lot of options in GMs where you're from do they?

Stop trying to use reverse psychology to shill dice, OP.

A solid 5/10: I'm posting but I don't see any autists yelling at other autists.

I mix my gamescience, chessex and opalite dice all together when I play.

Get on my level.

I'ma need you to stop being a fucking retarded and let him use his dice, Autismo

op this bait is fucking dope
keep going please

...

I spat quite a few things on my keyboard when browsing Veeky Forums, but this has to be the first time where I spat a sandwitch on it

Came here to call you an autist.

I can see several other people have already done it.

You fucking autistic cunt.

Doublechecking because drunk, but you want the ones closest to 0 on the right, yeah?

I hole-hardedly agree, but allow me to play doubles advocate here for a moment. For all intensive purposes I think you are wrong. In an age where false morals are a diamond dozen, true virtues are a blessing in the skies. We often put our false morality on a petal stool like a bunch of pre-Madonnas, but you all seem to be taking something very valuable for granite. So I ask of you to mustard up all the strength you can because it is a doggy dog world out there. Although there is some merit to what you are saying it seems like you have a huge ship on your shoulder. In your argument you seem to throw everything in but the kids Nsync, and even though you are having a feel day with this I am here to bring you back into reality. I have a sick sense when it comes to these types of things. It is almost spooky, because I cannot turn a blonde eye to these glaring flaws in your rhetoric. I have zero taller ants when it comes to people spouting out hate in the name of moral righteousness. You just need to remember what comes around is all around, and when supply and command fails you will be the first to go. Make my words, when you get down to brass stacks it doesn't take rocket appliances to get two birds stoned at once. It's clear who makes the pants in this relationship, and sometimes you just have to swallow your prize and accept the facts. You might have to come to this conclusion through denial and error but I swear on my mother's mating name that when you put the petal to the medal you will pass with flying carpets like it’s a peach of cake.

...

I'd be happy one of my players bought dice to use on my table.

I am going to assume, for the sake of argument, that you are entirely serious, OP.

I'm personally retarded enough that I have tested a lot of my dice for randomness, by recording about ~700 consecutive rolls and doing a chi^2-test.
I'll grant you that a surprising lot of dice are not truly random (like, they'll roll far too many of 1 number, or hardly ever roll one specific value), presumably due to one surface being machined not completely flat, or some similar imperfection.
But why on earth would you care so much? People buy dice, people like to have favorite dice, or they have one that they always use when they need a really lucky roll, or a million other things.
It is a storytelling game. They aren't playing competitively. Sure, you need rules, but you don't need anal-retentive fascism.

Is your hard line on this matter making the game less fun for one of your players? Definitely. That alone should make you question your ruling, here.

Lol you're such a faggot.

a...are chessex reliable? all i have/ever used

>more worried about the result of rolls than having fun and guiding people through an engaging story
If you're not trolling then you're the worst kind of DM and i hope you step on a d4 you raging faggot.

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Transparent (without bubbles) > solid color > swirled colors > speckled colors

This is due to transparent dice requiring a higher standard of plastic, as inconsistencies would be plainly visible. The plastic pellets they use in the dice sometimes leave air bubbles and can be different density for some colors, so the opaque ones are worse off.
But it doesn't matter enough to care about. The deviation is negligible, you'll have more fun just caring about how cool the dice look if you like them.

>use a legit RNG program.
You had me until this. PRNGs are rarely ideal for anything we do in games. They are "too random" such that undesirable patterns emerge from extremely random series. People don't typically roll dice or shuffle cards in the physical world such that they would be anywhere near as random as a PRNG rand() function. Which is a good thing. If you do very large data sets, you get a nice smooth distribution. The trade off is that when you inspect those data chronologically in order, sometimes you find awful results being front-loaded or strings of great or awful results in a row that would weird people out during a fun gaming session.

For games of pure chance, PRNGs make perfect sense. So casinos shouldn't go back to the old ways. The main issue I take here is that in real life, games often have a time asymmetry principle.

In RPGs: Rolling above or below average earlier will snowball your character. Due to things like HP being tracked or characters that take penalties when they fail rolls or take damage.

In TCGs: Drawing better or worse hands early game significantly impacts a player's potential. You probably can't win if you get mana screwed or your opponent checks a critical trigger turns 1 and 2.

In tabletop board games: Not having your controlled areas rolled on the dice early game can stop you getting resources and therefore be in last place and have less turns later in the game to catch up. Vice versa for rolling too well early.

This time asymmetry principle is in EVERY game. When it happens in a sufficiently random system like cards or dice, you just suck it up. But PRNGs have a nasty habit of being closer to true randomness and thus cause this problem more often. At the very least, it exposes gameplay the designers never really intended to exist. Some frontloading of data is inevitable, but we don't have to make it even more common and ruin even more fun.

>Complains jealously that a player in one of his games got nicer looking dice.
>Pays 13$ to write his own numbers on his dice.
>Doesn't think that everyone has to trust him that he was "fair" when writing his numbers.
>Got duped thinking his gamescience dice are "statistically balanced"

>"A mold-point may be noticed on one face of the die and may require some touch up with model-grade sandpaper"

Literally pay three times as much money for dice you have to paint and sandpaper.
If I was you, I'd be embarrassed enough to make a shill thread on Veeky Forums too, but I'm not retarded enough to fall for the gamescience scam.

Okay, I will be honest, I am not entirely sure what you are arguing;

Are you trying to say that humans rolling actual dice will tend to create a distribution with less variance than a RNG?
I'm not saying that isn't true, but it is definitely the sort of claim that you need citations to back up.

But even if we accept that, it is an insane leap to claim that humans (being not-perfect logic machines) would be able to detect the difference in variance between a fair d20 rolled by human hand, and a RNG.

We use analog dice because they are fun, and up the feeling of tension. Not because of math & statistics.

>In RPGs: Rolling above or below average earlier will snowball your character. Due to things like HP being tracked or characters that take penalties when they fail rolls or take damage
How is that even supposed to be fun, assuming all the stuff you're saying is true?

Oh, look, I got shit numbers all session and fumbled a lot of rolls because my dice aren't random enough. How fun.

Exactly, that wouldn't be very fun. That is what happens more often when you have a PRNG because...

Basically it works like this. As long as you have uniform distribution, it's random. That leaves a lot of room to have weird patterns when your data sets are large. Let's say you design physical dice to accomodate the way people roll (typically on two axes in the hand by a small amount, and one axis once it leaves the hand by a large amount).

If you can roll the dice and have a roughly uniform distribution at the end, accounting for each number, it's fine. It's random. Gamescience dice will do that in fact. In your sample of 2000 rolls, you might have 101 rolls of "1", and 99 rolls of "20". That's absolutely fine too. You should just roughly have 100 of each. Now let's say you run five sets of PRNG rand(20)+1 (the +1 just makes sure it won't start at 0).

You inspect set #1, and it looks a lot like your physical roll. In fact, maybe so do sets 3, 4, and 5 with some variance. But oh fuck what is happening with set 2:
20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 5, 11, 18...
It was front loaded with 20s. Oddly, it had 100 total "20" rolls as expected but they were front-loaded. And since time is a factor in gaming (earlier results impact games more than late results), this is a problem. It's all fair since the ending distribution is normal and uniform but PRNGs do in fact have this problem more often because they don't rely on people.

I should note for the sticklers like me out there: rolling dice is also a PRNG, just a very different algorithm (you can prove this by generating ensembles from both and determining that they are indistinguishable in polynomial time by an efficient procedure. If so, they are equivalent for all practical purposes. If something is indistinguishable from a uniform ensemble, it is called pseudorandom.)

>cars

I consistently roll horribly despite how many I get. That's reliable in a sense.

I really don't understand. Why would it be more or less likely that a PRNG algorithm generates 5 twenties in a row at a specific time than a human rolling a uniform die?

PRNGs are much more random in the sense that their possibility space is more open. Humans roll more predictably. Including the materials of the die, rolling habits, table material, height dropped, and so forth. PRNGs are sophisticated enough to have a far more robust possibility space. For fun times gaming, more possibility space means dealing with oddities like that more often. They're no more or less valid than any other result when there's no context. But it's precisely because of time asymmetry that this is usually bad for gaming.

I get that conceptually. But there's no way it's enough of a distinction that people will notice. I also don't know where the belief comes from that humans are less likely to roll 5 20's in a row than pure randomness. That means you're assuming that the combination of human rolling habits and factors you mention would make it less likely to roll the last result again. I'm not saying that's wrong per se, but I wonder why you made that assumption.

What a thunder cunt

>haven't been on Veeky Forums in months
>come back to find a yet unseen brand of autism
Never change, Veeky Forums

I use a d6 that came from a Harry Potter Whodunnit?
The single digit is a sticker with the Hogwarts symbol on it by the game's design, not my doing.

To all the autistic trolls whining about OP, I have a 'undoctored' D12 that rolls a 10 about 11% of the time and used to win bar bets at Cons with it (would never use on the table). Some early dice are still out there that maker my D12 seem 'fair'.

Lou Zochhi made an effort to improve the randomness of dice while other companies went for the 'kewl'. I use GS because they are the best for random results. I dislike dice I can't read from the GM chair and heavy dice that wreck the table.

If you want to flaw your die, let it sit in a drop of penetrating oil to weight the result to the opposite face. The D20s are now arranged to foil this, but Vegas dice are still vulnerable.

Personally, I roll with whatever is to hand, caring naught a bit.

Almost all my Chessex d20s fail the float test, turning to favor a particular side. (Granted, most of them are speckled--which are supposed to have more problems--but some are swirled or solid opaque.) The two d20s I actually tested gave me results that I'm dissatisfied with (see pic).

Notice the similarities of the results for the two dice, and for the Chessex dice in this test here that somebody else did.

>mfw all these muh kewl dice dorks getting blown the fuck out by dice autism

It's actually way more autistic to drop 100 bucks on artisan dice. Don't you have bills to pay for and important stuff to save up for?

Just stop overusing the word autistic. It adds nothing to the discussion and shows you'd rather judge people by some unwritten standard than actually engage and contribute something meaningful. If there ever were a place to discuss the depths of traditional gaming as a hobby, it's here. That doesn't mean every deep discussion is "autism". Nor is being a dickhole to your players "autism". It's being a dick.

I'm not certain what you mean by "a more open possibility space"

Now, in a sequence of rolls, I assume both a human and a RNG will have about 1/20 odds of generating any value from 1 to 20, on throw 1.
In fact, if we can have checked our die, and found it to be a fair one, we have pretty much determined that this is so.

Now, for throw 2, while a human being should have 1/20 chance of the same value again, I can buy the idea that his chance of the same value again may be slightly affected by his initial throw. Maybe he tries to move his arm exactly like before, because it was a 20 and he wants another. Maybe he throws extra vigorously, because he doesn't want the same result.

Meanwhile a RNG will have more or less exactly a 1/20 chance of replicating the throw.

But there is no way this effect would be truly detectable to humans. It is an unnecessary focus on randomizing things, when so many other factors affect the fun and enjoyability of the game. Like having your GM tell you that you can't bring your fancy dice that you really like.

Did someone say shitty rolls?

1) this isnt gambling
2) fairness is relative
3) special machined dice are not needed for tabletop gaming with no money on the line.

Ricky figured out computers, we're fucked.

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>about to correct your mistake
>read the rest of your post
Almost, you fucker.

>GM is autistic for caring about such a small thing
>Player is autistic for spending a gorillion dollars on wood dice
>Veeky Forums is autistic for taking the bait OP

>Only one guy mentions the only legit problem dice have: Legibility

Why do you can about visibility? That's such a small thing, you act you don't trust your players.

shut up

I said multiple times I have experienced people using loaded dice. It is 100x more of a problem to grab a dude's dice and call him out for cheating than just standardizing dice.

Yes Fairness is important.

You have most certainly not encountered loaded dice at table top games. And if you have, you need new friends.

>the benefit of the redoubt.
ded

I'll be using this user, thank you.

I made the OP when angry, and yes so can you fuck off with dictating what experiences I have and how you rate them? This may not be an issue to you, so go ahead and play casual baby shit D&D and re-roll your bad rolls or have your DM hide his rolls because otherwise your shitty low effort boring character would die because you suck shit at D&D

fuck you, why are you in this thead huh? "Oh my god someone cares about D&D in a fucking forum dedicated to trad games. GO back to some shithole like reddit where you can take pics of your gay little group of faggots playing candyland D&D with no risk and no challenge

If your friends are actually using loaded dice then the best thing to do is not, in fact, sperg out about EVERYONE MUST USE ACCREDITED DICE but tell them to unfuck themselves because they're a cheat and a tosser.

you seem pretty fucking mad bro

you should probably calm down