Redpill me on the Jedi, Veeky Forums. Is the light side of the force really the best side?

Vader is the most obvious exception to this that I can think of, but there are others. He spent every waking moment that he wasn't on task for the Emperor, hunting down and slaying force users across the galaxy. In Legends, he had a couple of apprentices, but even then he used them like tools and then disposed of them before they could pose a credible threat to him. The only force user he was interested in turning to the dark side was Luke, and that was clearly for more personal reasons than just wanting to have an apprentice.

Its a fucking cycle
Watch
The rebuplic will fall in this trillogy

There is no "Light Side" of the Force. There is only the Force and the Dark Side of the Force. The Dark Side is an aberration that is trying to kill the natural order.
It is not a coin, it is a canvas with a pulsating black tumor on it.

The Sith are relentless power-seeking murderers without any merit at all. Name a single Sith who has managed to help anybody in the entire galaxy after falling, and Vader killing Sidious doesn't count.

To some extent, it's true. The Rule of Two was instituted because when there were a lot of Sith around, they killed each other like crazy.
Two Sith are a mostly stable pair, a master who has power, and an apprentice who wants it. The master doles out knowledge and secrets slowly, and the apprentice does his bidding in exchange for continuing tutelage in the dark arts.
But the two are constantly watching for another dark force user. When one appears, things become unstable again. The master will order the apprentice to duel the new sith, hoping to make his apprentice stronger or get a new apprentice, while the apprentice might get ideas about getting the newbie on his side to kill the master and take his remaining secrets for himself, whereupon he become the new master, and the other becomes his apprentice.
So the pair is mostly stable, but always watching for a third to appear. And sometimes picking out someone to be a new third, either because the apprentice is getting antsy about how much the master is holding back and needs to be occupied with something other than killing the master, or because the apprentice wants someone to help him do just that.

Honestly, the Jedi Order and the Sith are both pretty stupid..but the Sith more so. The whole Rule of Two is probably the dumbest, silliest, and non-sensical idea ever. I can't even fathom how, no matter how powerful a Sith thinks he is, could believe that 2 could over throw an entire Jedi order and whatever army they would be supporting at the time. The concept that one Sith will always try to overthrow his master again is just dumb. No logical Order of Sith would keep falling into this trap. Once or twice...sure... but do you really expect us to believe that every single Sith apprentice wants to overthrow his Master? If that's the case then the Master would just kill his apprentice. or just not take one. This of course would weaken the Sith "order" even more. Honestly the Jedi (as much as their own silly order is foolish) should have realistically wiped the floor with any Sith Order each and every time.

The Jedi believed the Sith to have become extinct a thousand years ago. The Two Sith exist in the dark, hidden from the galaxy's sight.
All Force users seem driven to take apprentices for whatever reason. The Force doesn't want to be forgotten and manipulates people to continue the cycle.
If a Sith kills their apprentice they take a new apprentice later on.

The Jedi have a pretty shitty PR team, but they really are the good guys of the galaxy. The force is a complicated thing, and in and of itself, is neither good nor evil. That being said, the Dark Side is a very real thing, and is not merely an aggressive application of the force, but a wholly different source for force powers and sensitivity. When one accesses the force normally, the wielder subsumes themself and their ego to it's greater will, at least partially. This is what allows for things like precognition, and mind-tricks. The dark side instead presents itself as both a hunger and the means to sate that hunger. When a force-user reaches for the dark side, they feel only a void, instead of the interconnectedness of all things, and the only thing which begins to fill this void is rage, passion, aggression, and self-obsession.

The best source for understanding the difference between the Light and the Dark is the Heir to the Jedi novel, in the new canon, which explores Luke's first efforts to understand the force and use it for his own ends. Because he isn't really educated in the nuances of the force he has a really interesting reaction to the dark side when he feels it for the first time.

I think the idea is that you (the master) live forever through the Dark Side lich technique, and you just burn through a long series of apprentices, each who thinks they're going to usurp you.

Sometimes they actually do.

The sith are more of a lesser imperium than the Jedi are, both are tyrannical, pro-human, uncaring of regular citizens, and ultimately wanting what's best for everyone.

That was Palpatine's plan, his "rule of one", but the Rule of Two as put forth by Darth Bane was a means of concentrating the knowledge and power of the Sith into as small a number as possible to keep it going, and without diluting it. The idea was that the apprentice could only kill the master when he had learned everything the master had to teach, and any master who was killed by their apprentice was clearly too weak to remain alive. In this way the Sith teachings survived, and only those strongest and cleverest in their use of the dark side could claim the title of Sith Lord.

>The force is a complicated thing
Force apologists are the worst!

>sith
>pro-human
That's the Empire, and that's how I like it.

The Dark Side is an addiction. Addicts like to spread their addiction.

Expanded Universe/Legends/fanfic is absolute trash and should stay in the trash bin.

Well, no, it's made up of hundreds of books, comics, tabletop, vidya, and shows, all of varying degrees of quality.

Remember, only Sith deal in absolutes.

>2+2=4
>hurr only sith deal in absolutes

>2+2=4
Sure, in base 10.

...

Okay, lets look at just the movies then. In the Original trilogy it's pretty easy to accept them as the good guys. I mean it helps that there are all of three of them. Ben doesn't really do anything wrong, Yoda does nothing wrong, Luke does good things. in comparison the Emperor tortures people with lightning and Vader chokes out anyone who irritates him. Pretty clear lines there.

If we look at the Prequels however things get a bit more murky. Jedi sit back and let a lot of shady shit happen, or even endorse it when it benefits them. Of course the Sith are still worse comparatively, but the Jedi were far from beacons of purity and champions of justice and morality.

>Name a single Sith who has managed to help anybody in the entire galaxy after falling
Darth Revan

On another note the both sides of the force are natural and must stay in balance this is shown by the Ones, the issue is one side is very ambitious and prone to anger and the other is lazy and self indulgent, both accomplish nothing.

Jedi were utterly ruined by the prequels, and there's no coming back. Fight me.

This is pretty true they went from the knights of old to a bunch of celibate monks who kidnap children and are really bad at their jobs.

There were also a shit ton of them and they got complacent/arrogant. The ones that survived the purges happened to be the ones closest to the ideals of what a jedi should be.

The Jedi were good and noble, and their ideals and methods were mostly sound.

The problem is that they had a critical flaw: they so feared the corrupting and addictive nature of the Dark Side (forever will it dominate your destiny, etc) that they attempted to create a system where it could never exist. They weren't willing to face the risk and the challenge that the Dark Side presented because the cost of failure was too high. This led them to go too far in their dogma. Refusing to train those above a certain age, living in isolation from families and love, demanding detachment while creating filial piety between its members and encouraging compassion for all life, leading to inevitable conflict. All these things created holes that Palapatine was able to exploit.

In Episode I Yoda said that fear was the path to the Dark Side, but the irony was that their past had made the Jedi so fearful of the Dark Side and that they might not resist its temptation that their attempts to remove that temptation only served to open more subtle paths for it that in the end they couldn't defend against because their beliefs had become too rigid. Years later, in Episode V, Yoda had learned his lesson, and encouraged Luke to feel fear at the awesome responsibility and difficulty of his training. The fall of the Jedi taught him and other survivors that the absence of fear was no substitute for the courage to overcome it.

>Redpill me on the Jedi, Veeky Forums.
They good.

>Is the light side of the force really the best side?
Yeah. Dark side turns you into a dumb dick and ultimately consumes you.

>Are the Sith really so bad
Yep.

>or have they been slandered?
Nope.

The jedi also became very blind and sure of themselves like in episode 2 when Dooku tells Obi-wan that Palpatine is a sith lord, his immediate response is that the council would know about it so it can't be true, then in episode 3 they directly say that the dark side surrounds Palpatine and they still can't see the writing on the wall until it was too late.

The biggest flaw that the Jedi have, apart from hubris, is that they never train their people how to deal with negative emotions in a healthy way. Rather they just demand they repress those emotions via strict dogma and ritual without ever having confronted them.

This seems to explain why Jedi snap so catastrophically when they fall, they can't process any of the negative emotions they're experiencing so they totally abandon everything they've been taught and latch onto the exact opposite with equal fanaticism.

My views on the Jed and Sith are honestly weird. The Jedi are mostly individuals I like serving a code I find terrible, while the Sith are mostly individuals I despise following a code I find appealing.

>Obi wan has a waifu
>Perfect Jedi

>Anakin has a waifu
>Lord of the Sith

Explain this.

Obi Wan didn't lose his shit?

Obi-wan let go, Anakin didn't.

The Jedi let "shady shit," like Hutt crime cartels and slavery and whatnot, exist because it is not their place to enforce their will upon others. They are servants who uphold the law at the behest of the Republic. They are Guardians of Peace and Justice, and they do crusade to protect the innocent asking nothing in return, but they are not gods or the supreme arbiters of good and evil in the universe.

The Jedi were not perfect, but they followed their beliefs and were a positive force in the universe in pretty much all cases. They put the lives of others before their own, upheld the laws but were not so bound by them that they wouldn't act to aid others if that law would bind them, and worked toward a peaceful and more stable galaxy, even if that meant that sometimes they had to do nothing and allow evil to continue, so that the greatest possible number of people would at least have a chance at life, liberty and happiness. That's why they took up the leadership role in the Clone Wars: the prosecute the war in the way that would cause the least collateral damage, to protect civilians even at strategic cost, and to place their lives at risk so that others in the Republic might avoid doing so.

Maybe a BIT more murky. But not really.

Obi wan was better at handling his emotions and was honestly not well suited to train someone like Anakin. Anakin had abandonment issues and couldn't get past his upbringing he wasn't ready to deal with anymore loss in his life and the jedi were not helpful in that regard.

What's better: a darth maul beamstaff or dual wielding with one normal sabre and one smaller, offhand sabre?

One of them was an adult about his feelings. The other one was a fucking confused cry-baby that believed force-choking his waifu would protect her.

Obi wan's waifu was far superior.

A blaster.

Why not a beamstaff that seperates into two lightsabres?

My big issue with them is that the Jedi are a pretty clear case of 'protagonist centered morality'. They're myopic, totally convinced that they are right and just, and thus never seem to really question their own beliefs or actions. I'm not trying to bash them, but they seem unwilling to ever really seriously consider if they are actually doing the right thing in any given situation, and are more happy to just assume they are by virtue of being Jedi and thus never have to question their own morality or motivations.

Beamstaff no questions asked. Dual wielding is much harder to coordinate than a staff

A blaster saber

Almost as if they're all people and not gods or perfect saints. Not even Yoda or Ben.

he was TOO OLD

They should have captured him until he was 18, then put him out to stud, harvesting his children to raise a super jedi death squad.

If we're talking about KOTOR1, then yeah, dual blaster scoundrel to Jedi, uhh, sentinel, I think it was, was crazy OP. Who needs a lightsaber when you can do ludicrous damage from halfway across the map, at like six shots per turn?

Both are evil. The only way to be free is to overthrow the force wholly.

>Dual wielding is much harder to coordinate than a staff
Not if you're a true master Jedi!

Yeah?

I mean that's my point, they're flawed people following a deeply flawed ideology that's doing real damage to their group and stated goals and hampering them from reaching their potential.

One nice thing about Luke, and Asoka for that matter, is that they DO question things when their personal values tell them that The Jedi Way may not be the best way. Older Jedi guide them, address their questions with the party line, but in the end both of them often did things that an "orthodox," Jedi never would have because from their view it was right. They allowed themselves to be shaped by Jedi teachings, but were not so bound by them that they erased their own sense of right and wrong. In the end, they both often found themselves rewarded for following their instincts (and occasionally they both had to pay very dear prices for the same)

In one episode of Clone Wars Yoda said that this type of thing is also why Anakin was such an important and valuable member of the order: he was willing to break rules if he thought it was necessary just as he was willing to stand by those rules if he thought it was for the best. He used his judgement and accepted the consequences of his choices.

Sometimes you need a by-the-book Jedi like a Ki Adi Mundi or a Luminara Unduli who defers to The Book, but sometimes you need someone who's a loose cannon like a Plo Kun or an Qui-Gon Jinn, and sometimes you need somebody smack in the middle like Obi-Wan. Yoda clearly saw value of diversity of view within the Jedi, at least by that point. One might even call it character development from his Episode One persona, where he disapproved of Qui-Gon and Anakin being trained. After more than 10 years of seeing what Qui-Gon's influence on Obi-Wan helped him grow into, and what good Anakin had done with his different way of doing things, Yoda may have changed his entire way of thinking about Jedi philosophy.

Sadly, that change came too late to stop Palpatine from exploiting the order's weaknesses.

You really think that's what she was trying to do? Kreia does nothing but lie and manipulate you throughout the whole game, but sure, she's totally shooting straight about trying to kill the force.

No, Kreia was merely playing the role the force had given her, namely, acting as a foil to make the Exile as strong as she could possibly be. That alone would have been enough, but she also believed that "there must always be a Darth Traya" and for that reason, she wanted the exile to know betrayal. She wanted to be cut down and for the exile to feel her death reverberate through their force-bond, ultimately leading her to take Kreia's place as the Sith Lord of Betrayal.

I always hated that bitch

good post my dude

I had assumed the assumption would be that every generation of Sith would be even more powerful than the previous, eventually the sith would be godlike in power. That might be a fan theory as I don't think Lucas thought it through that far.

Best Jedi acknowledge emotions and knowledge in moderation.
The light side of the force, when understood properly, is an understanding of balance.

The dark side is corruptive, and will fuck you the hell up.
Never go black, you won't come back.

No, that's pretty much the basis for the Rule of Two. Sidious ended up becoming the strongest Sith Lord in history because he came from a line of progressively more advanced and knowledgeable Sith. He was the culmination of Bane's philosophy to make the Sith stronger through the years.

The Sith evolved and hid in the dark while the Jedi remained stagnant and complacent, and they lost because the Sith outmaneuvered them despite only numbering a few.

Darth Vectivus

Basically a monastic armed order of psychics that's camping out right at the heart of political power. Nobody knows what exactly they do or how they got there and they tend to kill people who oppose them.

These are not the droids you're looking for, btw.

there is an alternate jedi code floating on the internet that doesnt enforce exclusion like the modern code. i heard this was the old code of the jedi. makes you think about what happened to the order

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet the Force.

yeah, that one.
makes way more sense then the modern code.
the modern one is full of absolutes, heh

One too many wars and tragedies brought about by Jedi who fell to the Dark or Sith resurgences. They decided it was better to totally eliminate the threat of falling. This ended up being their undoing. See

Would you look at that face, who wouldn't trust a guy like that?

What is best, anyway?
If you're trying to crush your enemies and hear the lamentations of their women, the Jedi temple holds nothing of value for you.

Sheev did nothing wrong.

>Sheev dindu nuffin
>that was Tarkin
>muh preparing the galaxy

If you turn to the Dark Side, you're doing the Force wrong. Simple as that. The Jedi are not the be all end all of Force users. They have more than their fair share of problems and all their wash outs are indicative of that. The Light Side is the only side, but plenty of people have fucked up trying to get there.

If you want a more tangible concrete answer, just listen to Kel'eth Ur in the Old Republic. He basically explains the Sith are doomed to fail.

IT'S LITERALLY FUCKING DAOISM INTERPRETED BY AN IDIOT, OF COURSE THE LIGHT SIDE IS RIGHT

I heard Darth Sidious survived episode 6, is this true?

It's a lie. Fear is a lie. Passion, a lie. Fears gives only temporary powers, and passion is easily manipulated. Real strength in the Force comes when one is no longer afraid
-Darth Vectivus

Is he our guy

It is in the old canon. The new canon hasn't said yet, but they have confirmed some parts of old canon like Thrawn and some Old Republic Sith.

in legends did, unconfirmed as to whether or not in current canon, likely didn't

youtu.be/RQar1NXXMFI

Nigga that's Kel-eth Ur.

New canon? Does that mean the extended universe is invalid now? Is kotor canon?

>Slowpoke.jpg

Extended universe, including motor as far as I know, isn't canon until proven otherwise.

KoToR exists within the old canon. Parts of it exist in the new canon too, but not necessarily all of it. The new and old canon, now called legends, are separated but both still exist. There's even still working being done in Legends canon.

Nothing is "invalid", because it's not like it no longer exists. It's as valid as it ever was, but the main movies aren't going to bother taking the legends stuff into account.

Sith inquisitor is the best story-line. Lightside is the more intriguing of all force users

>Jedi are a lesser version of the Imperium of Man.
>Sith a lesser version of Chaos.
>Lesser

Loser.

I wish that game hadn't been an MMO. All the individual storylines seemed decent and some of the side quests were cool, but it got so bogged down in grinding that I gave it up. Is it worth going back to? I only got to about Belsavis with my Bounty Hunter.

Fuck this light/dark bullshit.
Grey all the way every day.
Both compassion and passion proper are valuable, it is natural to be selfish just as it is natural to be selfless, and one should understand the limits and extremes of both without excluding either from your life. The force isn't just the universal force, it isn't just the living force, it isn't just the light side of the force and it isn't just the dark side of the force. The force is the force, and all that it encompasses are a part of it, and exist for a reason. The dark corrupts, this is true and unavoidable if you intend to explore it, but understanding that the dark does in fact always corrupt and knowing that this corruptive power is a small part of a small part of the greater force at large shows you the paths to steer it, to moderate it and to counter it. The dark is a power, but it will never be the strongest power, only a small piece of the strongest power, and to try and understand the force without it entirely or with it exclusively are both equally misguided.
But please, if you're going to explore the dark, make sure you have allies strong in the light nearby, to help neutralize you should you go too deep.

Its shit. Obsidian should have made Kotor 3. Instead we get Bioware Butchering kotor2 in their novel. and a MMO that couldn't beat Star Wars Galaxies

The Sith are supposed to be like the Nazis, so they're the real good guys
>alderon never happened
>Jedi control the media/government and are all part space-lizard

Damn, oh well. At least we got some half-decent lore out of it. The Kel'eth Ur thing is definitely my favorite. It succinctly explains why the Dark Side is shit in universe.

Why was Star wars the old republic shit? I mean it build up into something great in kotor 2. so how could they have fucked it up?

MMO and Bioware's writing wasn't as good as Obsidian's by a huge margin. The MMO part is the main problem I think.

But to have fucked it up to that extend?

I dunno, I never really thought the problems with it were the story or anything. I thought it was fine but not great. I only have beef with how they actually did the game itself.

The entire fucking point of the prequels, lost amongst the CGI and terrible acting, was that the Jedi had become really fucking bad at what they were meant to do, which is why all the Palpatine/Anakin stuff happened.

So: mystics in tune with life, the universe etc. are good. What amounts to the Republic's standing army, living in a giant castle and opposing all change are bad.

Yeah but then he was undone by his own apprentice while killing him and fucked everything up.

Step away! She has brought truth, and you condemn it? The arrogance! You will not harm her. You will not harm her ever again.How could you ever hope to know the threat you face, when you have never walked in the dark places of the galaxy—faced war and death on such a scale. If you had traveled far enough, rather than waiting for the echo to reach you, perhaps you would have seen it for what it was. There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side—it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death. Revan knew the power of such places… and the power in making them. They can be used to break the will of others… of Jedi, promising them power, and turning them to the dark side. The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion… culminating in a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from—save one. And this is what I sought to understand. How one could turn away from such power, give up the Force… and still live. But I see what happened now. It is because you were afraid.

What did Kreia mean by this?

Anything that came after RotJ is gone, aside from maybe some characters who they will reuse. Anything from the far past, like KOTOR, is still fine.

The whole point of KOTOR was it was made to be in the same universe but be so far back in time as to not interact with main continuity very much.

The conclusion of the Exile and Revans' stories was so fucking unsatisfying. All that build up just to fucking shit on it to justify a shitty MMO

>is that they never train their people how to deal with negative emotions in a healthy way
Obi-Wan deals with negative emotion just fine.

See: pain, betrayal, agony, disgust, hatred, directed towards Anakin after he fell.

As far as repression and "snapping catastrophically" is concerned, that's honestly really just Anakin. Part of Anakin's issue was his abandonment issues turning into attachment issues, because he left his home at precisely the WRONG age to actually learn anything of merit. Had he been found as an infant by the Order, he likely would have been fine. Had he been found as an adult by the Order and trained, after he'd been able to gain emotional maturity, he'd also probably have been fine.

He landed in the shittiest possible spot, and on top of that he had a Sith Lord whispering in his ear for over a decade.