The Emperor's Daughters

Well, Fulgrim's not very empathetic at all, though he is a bit emotional. And I don't think he'd be a bitch if he was a woman, he'd be a bitch as a guy, too.

(Also stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason.)

Women (speaking from first-hand experience here) are mean to each other, but don't hate each other. We do sneaky shit behind each other's backs because we hate confrontation, but a primarch would no such inhibitions, being made for war and all. They'd get their shit out in the open and deal with it then and there. No hatred from that end. Also this competition between women only happens because of guys, adult married female friends don't do that shit, but single ones do.

This man is asking the important questions.

He does rat Curze out, and he's kind of a dick to Peturabo (though that's during the Heresy) - sure, they're both easy targets, as it were, but he's still a bit of a bitch.

And if this is "primarchs as teenage girls" as these threads commonly are, then she's definitely got the whole girl posse going on, given the known egotism and attitude of the EC commanders

Wait, as a teenager? Oh yes, Fulgrim would be a bitch. I was thinking more of an adult, mature female Fulgrim pre-Heresy (everyone turned into a bitch during the Heresy, I think, even Vulkan).

And I'm pretty sure ratting Curze out was less of him trying to be a bitch, but more that he didn't really understand why he shouldn't. Fulgrim has a hard time putting himself in others' shoes, so he thought talking about Curze's visions to others would somehow help. But I could be wrong.

I dunno women can get worse when they get a ring, and women DO hate eachother and hold grudges.

Oh I'm not saying women CAN'T hate or hold grudges, just that normally when it seems like they do they really don't.

I've known women to get clingy or bitchy when they have super low self-esteem or self-respect and get married. But that can't be the norm, right? Most women don't get worse when they get a ring.

Yeah, what with OP's pic it's often "as a teenager", so that was colouring my view slightly - also the way that most Primarchs kinda lack a fairly important teenage learning moment: that you're not the most important person in the world, that you're not magically better than everyone else, and that you have limits.
For the primarchs this is objectively not true, save about 20 or so other individuals, so they are kind of stuck being semi-teenagers in attitude.

Fulgrim probably wasn't trying to be a bitch, I'll give you that.

I'm kinda scared to look at the pic too closely, to be honest. I'm not sure I like what it implies.

And the teenager thing is so true - they're all a bunch of man-chidlren! If I could teleport to the 30k universe and bitch-slap them as kids (and somehow not die) I would.
Except Vulkan.
Vulkan's fine.
And Sanguinius.

I've always preferred it when it's not the Primarchs themselves, but their children. The combination of how well a Primarch takes to parenting and what their parenting style is and what the Daughters turn out to be has always been of interest.

How does someone as crazy as Curze or Angron take to the sudden responsibility of raising a child? What about the Anti-social primarchs like peturabo or the Lion?

About the only one we know could be a good dad is Guilliman, because he alone had a regular family life with a mother and father.

Okay, that actually sounds like an interesting thing to read about. Looking at the picture now, I really like the Khan's/Russ' designs, and I think it's funny how Russ is just annoying Magnus. Curze has ventured from her cave and dislikes the daylight, lol.

This actually makes me want to write a fan-fiction about this. Either it turns out the primarchs are compatable with people (one of them gets a SURPRISE!) or they "adopt" a little kid (like it's the last living human on a planet and no one else can take care of them). Maybe they were compatable all along and it was the Emperor's plan for when the Crusade was over, so he wouldn't have to kill them off like the Thunder Warrriors? I can see Angron really loving the kid, but awkward and unable to properly care for them. Or Konrad fucking off like "she'll be fine, whatever" and one day realizing she's got some serious problems and he has to fix them, when he can't even fix himself.

Now look what you've done, user!

MUST. RESIST URGE. TO WRITE SHITTY FANFICTION.

The primarchs, as a group, have a lot of issues, only some of which are down never getting out of the teenager mindset because they really ARE the most important and powerful people in the imperium and are pretty difficult to actually challenge. This is then combined with their numerous other issues.

Vulkan and Sang do have issues, they're just lower-key than their brothers' (which really isn't hard). Vulkan is the most stable by miles though

These threads have a number of ways they usually go, few of them all that good.

Personally I agree with that daughters are more interesting, but there's often tone issues (are we still in the 40k universe,.or is it suburban America?) and all too often the daughters are straight clones of their fathers in personality to the point that there's almost no point in being different - though part of what makes the primarchs compelling is their original personalities

If it helps there's already a TON of shitty fanfic on the topic, hence the pics

Search WHH on 1d4chan and then wish you didn't

It would be better than most of the fanfiction out there, being honest.

Already well acquainted with it. I love the idea and want to see more of it, but I feel none of those authors knew the Primarchs, or knew the 30k setting. And it should be the 30k setting.

What I'd like is a reboot with people who actually know the Primarchs and can make the Daughters feel more like actual children of the Primarchs and less like self-insert waifus. Because a lot of who the Daughters would be is how they react to the parenting of their Fathers, and how being raised by them would change them.

Vulkan and Sanguinius both are still a bit messed up, but I don't think it's because they're mentally teenagers. It's like subtle personality flaws versus glaring fuckhuge red flags and mental disorders. Makes you wonder about Big E.

Tone issues... I can see them now, unfortunately. I love fan-fiction, but I hate when they try to go in a completely other realm when it comes to tone. Let me guess... high school? Romantic comedy? Really dumb names that are supposed to be clever puns but with all the subtley of a nuclear strike, and stupid situations only there so the characters have an excuse to fuck? Somehow perfectly despite being teenagers?

I'm scared, but this has me sufficiently curious so I will prepare myself and dive in. Wish me luck.

>I'm scared, but this has me sufficiently curious so I will prepare myself and dive in. Wish me luck.

As a veteran let me give you a few tips.

The tone can vary wildly, from 'normal teenage girls whose dads just happen to be the Primarchs', to full on 40k setting stories. Of the latter, there's the fluffier SOL/Angst stories which tend to be the longer ones, and then there's the more 40k/grimdark ones, which have their own flaws.

Most of the short pieces can be discarded, leaving you with the novel sized monsters. Of those, in my opinion the best stories are Bound Fate and Ghosts of Rage. Bound Fate is closest to how I think might want to see things, while Ghosts is a really good character piece.

WELL I'M BACK ALREADY GUYS

( I will take this into consideration thank you.)

Can I just... the names, anons, the goddamn names are getting me already. I know it's a stupid thing to get non-existant jimmies rustled over, but... there's just two I actually like, Miranda (reference to the Tempest, actually subtle) and Freya. Hana's nice, too. But then there's...
ANGELa, even though Sanguinius hates being called a divine and an angel.
Furia, because "fury", get it guys?!
Kelly, while it's not so bad it's... way too modern. "Kelly Curze." Ugh.
Faith, again subtle.
But here are the worst offenders for me- Alpharia and Omegan. MEGAN. With an "o". Just... literally their dads' names with ONE letter changed or added to each.

Oh god.

Agree on the personality issues, and at least you're prepared for the fanfic

Most of it predates a lot of what we now know about the primarchs, but I agree - I'd also like to see (or even collaborate on) a rebooted version, but I'm heading into work where I will only be able to post sporadically.

My idea for a setup was that the Imperial Family would be the Emperor's answer to the primarchs' worry over 'what do we do when we've conquered the galaxy' - along with their legions, fiefs, and a few odd jobs, they have to raise a young nobility that has clear descent from the Emperor but isn't an enormous posthuman demigod - Big E wanted an empire ruled by humans, the primarchs didn't want to be thrown away and rejected, this is the compromise

Well, it helps that there's already a canon precedent. Malcador mentioning that he thought a few of the Primarchs should be female. He alone seemed to actually care for their role in future events, so he would be the one to mastermind a Daughter Project and twist the Emperor into going along with it.

Though the truth is that the whole thing would be dependent on the Emperor not being a giant douche who saw the Primarchs as numbers to be used and discarded. Because thanks to 'Master of Mankind', the Emperor's answer to the primarchs' worry over 'what do we do when we've conquered the galaxy', is 'Simple. We get rid of the Primarchs. 1 through 20 have fulfilled their purpose, it's tine to dispose of them. Custodes, deal with these.'

Because thanks to 'Master of Mankind', the Emperor's answer to the primarchs' worry over 'what do we do when we've conquered the galaxy', is 'Simple. We get rid of the Primarchs. 1 through 20 have fulfilled their purpose, it's tine to dispose of them. Custodes, deal with these.'

Wait. WHAT?! Explain this please.

Emperor outright says that the Primarchs are tools, referring to them by their numbers and is content to allow the fantasy of being their "father" as long as it keeps them loyal to him. And he basically admits that they have no place in the Imperium he will build and he intends to dispose of them once he's done.

There's a scene where Arkhan Land sees the Emperor working on Angron, and the Emperor goes "I don't consider the Primarchs my children. They're Pinocchio to my Gepetto."

The thing is, Arkhan is not an unbiased observer. The Emperor appears as different people to different viewers, and to Arkhan he appears as a purely logical scientist. (Also, the Emperor states that he could remove the Butcher's Nails, but the process would kill Angron dead. And he'd rather have a live Primarch than a dead one.)

Biased observer or no, the Emperor's actions actually support this point of view. I don't recall him doing anything at all, other than not immediately murdering Horus when he had the chance, that implies he has any love for the primarchs.

The single biggest issue leading to the Heresy was daddy issues (mostly abandonment). Making the Primarchs female would only worsen that.

Not wanting to just be war incarnate was another issue for some of the traitors (Lorgar, Pert, and Magnus to a lesser degree), another factor that would only be exacerbated by feminization.

>daddy issues
>this meme again

Well, thanks to certain writers it's become a cornerstone of the entire HH Series.

Their relationship with the Emperor (or his abandoning the GC at the end) was a significant factor in the fall of almost all of the traitor primarchs.

Well that's lame.

Still, it's one of the easier parts of BL's canon to ignore, especially in fanfic

it becomes worse when you realize the Emperor never gave a shit about any of them beyond them winning his empire.

We'd finally have Female Space Marines.

But, no male Space Marines. Just "Brothers of Battle." I guess the Grey Knights would still be male.

The only guy Female Primarchs would fight over would be the Emperor.

They'd fight for daddies approval (like their male versions) and none of them would have love interests. All other men would be beneath them.

Of course the gender-bending space marine cosplayer is from Soviet Russia.

>women in charge of space marine legions making war across the galaxy
>women in charge of anything more complicated than a facebook page

>Oh my god Fulgrim, you can't just ask why someone's black!

Malcador was pretty smart, so I'm inclined to think he might have had a good idea there if he actually said that.

DESU I'm pretty sure the heresy would've still happened. Having daughters instead of sons wouldn't make Big E less of a shit dad.

But Gepetto loves Pinocchio as a son...I mean, it's kinda the point of the story (He sells his one coat to buy schoolbooks for the puppet) even outside the disney version. Pinocchio is a little shit but Gepetto cared deeply for him.

Well, Gepetto didn't make Pinocchio expecting him to come to life. The Emperor made the Primarchs for only one reason: so they could fulfill His plans for humanity.

Yeah, I'm just saying that it kinda fucks up the analogy if you go with a creator who did love his creation (Intended or not).

But then: The Emperor is shit at talking to people, news at 11. We've known that since he High School Atheismed all over The Last Church.

Malcador must never have worked with women.

Pretty sure the kids would be retarded and sterile after the 2nd generation of that.

...

I'm not exactly sure how this is relevant, but it is.

Ain't the Emperor's fault BL keeps bringing in incompetent wankers to write about him.

Rio probably had a few stillborn siblings, and it's all downhill form there.

I like the idea of the Primarch's themselves being girls, because that changes A LOT. ONLY female Space Marines being the tip of that change.

>Though the Emperor's psychic gifts and martial skills were unequaled, He found Himself unwilling to summon His full strength against His beloved son.
The Emperor loved Horus. He had rooms on Terra for his children to have when they were done.

OK, so from the offset im not sure GW qould change anything else. They reallly like their status quo.

But, for the sake of argument:

>Misogyny,
The WH40K universe is built misogynistic. That's the way GW wanted it and what contributes to its grimdark aesthetic. Having women primarchs wouldn't change that.

Im thinking the most different change would be a slower expansion of the imperium during the great crusade due to more infighting and rebellion from the male military elements. I could imagine the primarchs having to loop back around a few times to re conquer a system or two.

I think alot of these issues could have been solved by emps getting a wife. Sons treat their moms differently then their dads. Giving the primarchs a mom could have given them someone to go to for life advice and counsel who they weren't all looking to impress.

Now im spitballing: It would also have introduced a little humility into the dynamic, having someone who was less powerful "further" up on the hierarchy and still very precious to them on an emotional level could have changed the way they interacted with humanity at large.

Im sorry, but your wrong.

He actually had rooms on Terra for them? I couldn't find anything on that!

I don't believe you know what the word "misogyny" actually means. Here's the dictionary definition:
"dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women."
>male military elements
As opposed to female military elements? Actually, throughout history, women who have risen to power politically or militarily were often more "bloodthirsty" than the men were.
>I think alot of these issues could have been solved by emps getting a wife.
Agree, just look at Roboute.
>I'm sorry, but your wrong.
About what in particular?

Im pretty sure that fits description fits how the WH40K world acts on the whole. And it should. I think you took as an insult what I meant as an analysis. Warhammer is a dystopia and the misogyny is a symptom of being a dystopia. This isn't a bad thing.

I think that because WH40K is a dystopia, and one of the main facets of that dystopia is a misogynist attitude. Its a facet of shit falling apart and does not mean the IP is misogynist. WH40K clearly waves red flags over this and is all "shits bad dont do this". So yes, I stand by my point. Thematically it makes sense to have more rebellions and infighting during the great crusade due to a lack of respect the almost exclusively male elements of the fleets would have towards the Primarches. Cause it's a dystopia.

>Agree, just look at Roboute.
Im glad you agree, but not sure what you mean by this, Did Roboute get a wife at one point?

And you're wrong about women not holding grudges. Women can and do hold grudges. There's that whole "hell hath no fury.." line for a reason.

>The WH40K universe is built misogynistic. That's the way GW wanted it and what contributes to its grimdark aesthetic. Having women primarchs wouldn't change that.
> Having women primarchs wouldn't change that.
>Having
>women
>wouldn't change
>misogynistic

WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

It would change EVERYTHING. First, the reason there are no girl Adeptus Astartes is because the Primarch's being male makes female Space Marines a genetic impossibility. However, if the Primarch's were female, then ONLY females could join the Legions. Females would be competing in the Milky Way to be turned into super soldiers. Men would have to sign up for the male equivalent of Adepta Sororitas, Sisters of Battle.

Females would be TRANSFORMED INTO GENETIC DEMIGODS and then get power armor. They'd be stomping around Battleships while mere mortals serviced it, doing jobs below the mental and physical superiority of the female Adeptus Astartes. When an Imperial Army Grunt looked up, it would be a female face encased in ceramite looking down.

So, it would change the patriarchal society in 40k into a matriarch society. It would be misandry instead of misogyny.
You know, the difference between night and day or up and down.

the problem with female astartes isn't that they're impossible it's that they'd be fucking pointless

in fact even thinking of space marines as "men" is already in and of itself a mistake, they're inhuman genetic monstrosities, a space marine is genuinely further removed from recognisable "humanity" than an Eldar is.

They have extra organs, the organs they share are very different, their musculature and bone structure is fundamentally different, they have sub dermal implants and different brains. From the genetic level on up, they are other.

If you make a girl a space marine she winds up looking exactly like Brother Marcus from the 3rd company, so from the point of view of the narrative there is literally no reason to do so. It's not going to be a Space Marine with tits, it's not going to be a weaker Space Marine, it's not going to be a special unique Space Marine, it's going to be a Space Marine.

Slow down salty, you're getting to wrapped up in this fantasy world.

The reason there are no female adeptus Astartes is because GW made a deliberate stylistic choice then built out the cannon to support it. Although it's more likely that emps would make female SMs There's no guarantee that the emps would make them.

Theres also no guarantee that a matriarchy would form. Remember, the emp is still in control and is a man. That would effect things heavily.

Furthermore, and this is a side note, you can have both misandry and misogyny co-existing in a society. They aren't mutually exclusive.

I agree with you, with a significant cavote. The space marines are "Men" in that they're treated as males. The heroic masculinity that the SMs embody contributes significantly to the themes GW wants to explore.

That being said, gender isn't really a topic GW lets its authors talk about in the WH40K universe so we dont really know how the imperium feels about transgender people or even homosexuals.

Uh, no. "BROTHERS of Battle," "SONS of whoever," etc.
40k is FULL of words flaunting the fact the Adeptus Astartes are hyper masculine.

Now, I'm not saying that female space marines would be super models, but they'd be as recognizably female as the current ones are male.

>It's not going to be a Space Marine with tits, it's not going to be a weaker Space Marine, it's not going to be a special unique Space Marine, it's going to be a Space Marine.
Well, that's kinda the point here. All of the Space Marines from the same genetic stock look the same because they're getting their genetics from their Primarch.

But, what if all the Primarchs were female?

No they wouldn't, have you ever seen an actual IRL muscle girl that wasn't beautified? Your fetish comics aren't real you fucking faggot.

the chest of a female space marine would be visually identical to a male space marine, female body builders all have breast implants because newsflash: tiddies are mostly fat.

likewise with the face, the treatments a space marine goes through would basically destroy any "female" identifiers. They also wouldn't be wearing makeup or long hair, they'd mostly be shaved bald or almost bald as most space marines are currently.

Same with bodyshape in general.

Also Power Armour wouldn look exactly the same, if you think you're getting jumbo sized sisters of battle think again.

No, I'm not saying they're like that because their Primarchs look like that, I'm saying they'd look like that because that's LITERALLY how the body works, the "female form" ceases to be indistinguishable from the male one past a certain point of being really fucking jacked.

Oh, I guess your right. I can't tell which of these is a girl.

Yeah buddy, im going to have to second but for different reasons. Expressions of genes are incredibly important. If you block a dudes testosterone and then give him estrogen his body will rebuild itself as much as it can to model being female. What i'm trying to say is that if you somehow rewrote the genetic code of every cell in someone's body it would still take very specific hormones to make them expresses those changes in a masculine or feminine manner.

But, lets just clarify here, GW is shit on science, and WH40K is a fantasy. and that's ok.

If 40k was a realistic setting, your point would have relevance.

It is not, and based on the "hyper-exaggerated" nature of 40k, yes they would be jumbo sized SoBs with giant boobs and wide hips, because 0 actual science goes into this setting.

Try again, salt-lord.

Is what they're look like even the point?

I thought the question was more about how'd they ACT.

>Im glad you agree, but not sure what you mean by this, Did Roboute get a wife at one point?

He had the only regular family dynamic. Konor Guilliman as his father and Tarasha Euten as his mother.

Tomaru genes stronk

Those guys look weak. Get some actual heavy weight lifters & not half-dehydrated shits.

oh my fucking god what

atleast the guy is in-universe considered human trash, i heard

How they would look is irrelevant. How they would act isn't.

Pretty much every character in the 40k books have "proving their manliness" as their primary motivation. The only reason any of them seem to get up in the morning is FOR HONOR!

If you take away their need to prove their masculinity every second of every day, you're essentially changing their base motivation. THAT is where the major change would come from. Not how big their breasts or muscles would be, but how being female would change their motivations in life and how they interact with other characters.

There you go, that's another WH40K mystery solved. What we learned today was good parenting stops chaos. Im going to go google these people. Thanks user.

Your right. Well said.

Konor was one of the two Consuls of Macragge. Tarasha was his Seneschal and mistress. They raised Roboute together. Roboute had as close to a regular life as any primarch. He went to school, hung out with his dad, sat in the library reading. He wasn't a wild child like the Lion, a crazy vigilante like Curze or the slave to some xenos monstrosity like Mortarion.

So new question, who would make the best empress? Who would most balance out the emperor and be able to provide that bit of nurturing the primarchs apparently needed?

There's no woman who could do that.

The only human who can do that is Malcador. He's the only one who balances out the Emperor.

>Malcador and Emps, gay dads
>Fem Malcador, empress of the Imperium

Im strangely alright with both of these.

I guess the alternative is like, Emps frankensteining a bride and that's no good either.

While an empress who could balance out the emperor's terrible parenting would help immensely, that still does nothing for the issues that don't arise from that - physical, mental and terrible childhood issues, plus the "teenager" problem discussed upthread.

Even with the most amazing empress in the galaxy, there's nothing she could do about a lot of the problems the primarchs have (though I agree with that Malcador comes closest)

To have the primarchs is to have them scattered and to come with all their issues, but there's a possibility of normalising them with family life - given the most stable primarchs had families.
Or at least Malcador might think so, leading to something like

The most stable Primarchs were the ones with Families. Think about it, Roboute was the most stable, and he had two parents. Vulkan had a dad who raised him, and he turned out very well. Dorn grew up in a family, and while a stern and austere bastard, he was very stable mentally and emotionally.

You'd have to go outside of the 40k universe.

I'm alright with opening up the field. Just no non-humans.

How many strong female rulers are there who could possibly be a restraining influence on someone as divorced from humanity as the Emperor?

They dont have to be rulers in there own right. So I guess we're looking for someone strong willed enough not to immediately bow to the Emperor and compassionate or empathetic enough to counter the chair lord's raging hard on for manifest destiny.

So like suggested, a female Malcador, or maybe an adult Modoka.

I-Isha...?

Not a human.

>How many strong female rulers are there who could possibly be a restraining influence on someone as divorced from humanity as the Emperor?
The Saintly Perfect Goddess from Battle Girlz.

Or this character:
amazon.com/Quintessential-Mary-Sue-Taylor-Connor-ebook/dp/B00WT8Y8AY

ok, your subtle sarcasm is noted.

>Sanguinus
> Not Fulgrim

>>>>>>>subtle

>amazon.com/Quintessential-Mary-Sue-Taylor-Connor-ebook/dp/B00WT8Y8AY

>Print Length: 42 pages
>42 pages
>42
>pages

What?

>Finding this emaciated asshole attractive

Ah, sorry about that. Got a bit triggered, I guess, after reading some feminist/SJW articles claiming 40k is sexist and awful, unironically. I agree it's a shit universe to live in and adding anything bad to the setting just makes it better in that way.
As for the universe being misogynist... is it? I mean, you've got women in the Guard, Sisters of Battle, Sisters of Silence, even female space marines if you go far enough back in the fluff. Women can hold the highest stations in the Empire and often do (Inquistors, High Lords, commanders, etc.), even in Eldar society women are equal, if not higher than men because they're often more psychically gifted. Tau are equal too. Vulkan had a wife during the Crusade, and Salamanders will marry humans as well! (Didn't Sanguinius have a girlfriend at one point? Or was that also old fluff?) Not to mention all the individual badass women, like Alivia Sureka, Lotara Sarrin, Tarasha Euten, Saint Celestine, Shadowsun, Taldeer, Isha, Slaanesh (does he/she/it count?), among so many others.

>No one mentioning Alivia Sureka
>HERESY!!!
Also pic related.

Instead of one Heresy, there would be dozens. And a whole lot of Legions not talking to each other and bitching about one another behind each others backs.

...

>Misogyny,
The WH40K universe is built misogynistic. >That's the way GW wanted it and what contributes to its grimdark aesthetic. Having women primarchs wouldn't change that.
So I take it your just some idiot that found 40k through buzzfeed I take it?

Wouldn't """women""" want to prove their manliness even more? They would definitely have to work harder for it.

That's not what user is saying, user.

They're pointing out that the point of 40k, as a whole, from a business perspective, is a fucked up grimdark future. Female primarchs or no, we'd have a fucked up grimdark future, because that's just what GW wants the setting to be.

I got triggered at misogyny, too, it's okay. I don't think user is one of them.

Saying 40k is a universe built on misogyny, is like saying a universe with Nazi's running the world can get along with fucking communist Russia. Both of these ideas are stupid and have no bearing on reality, so pray tell where the hell did you pull that thought from?