Warmachine / Hordes General - /wmhg/

Better than the cellulite inflated cottage cheese farms wrapped in a plastic bag that most 'groids and 'groid media brainwashed mongoloids prefer.

Sounds like jealousy to me bro.

Low test.

So who's the best caster in Skorne now: Rasheth, Makeda1, Zaadesh2, or Xerxis 1? Pls don't say Naaresh.

Nice strawman and nicer projection. Doesn't change the fact you like man ass

I guess Skorne errata killed WMHG. Now there's nothing really bad left to bitch about, and it's not like actual discussion ever happened here.

Cryx players are the new Skorne. I'd love more discussion around here. Is the Eye of Truth worth putting in a Thyra or High Reclaimer list do you think?

This would also be taking him over Scourge, too.

It's damn hard to say. Makeda1 gets the most hype. Makeda2 was best before the errata and got buffed. Rasheth got a massive buff in every way and is probably our best straight-forward lock. Xerxis2 deserves special mention for making everything Sanic Fast and outthreating basically any non-Cryx jack spam. Zaadesh2 was good before and got a buff to everything he likes.

I don't know, I can't decide. And those are just the ones I have my eyes on.

EoT is just universally amazing.

I need help building my first Legion army, but I have virtually zero experience playing as or even against Legion, and reading the stats only gets me so far. So I have pretty much no idea which models to buy.

Here's a list of models I like the looks/abilites of:

Casters:
Saeryn2 & Rhyas2
Thagrosh1
Vayl2

Beasts:
Scythean
Typhon
Angelius
Neraph
Bloodseer
Protector
Raek
Zuriel

Units & Solos:
Raptors
Blackfrost Shard
Warspears
Sorceress & Hellion
Hellmouth
Anyssa Ryvaal

And of course the obligatory Shepherds/Forsaken, I suppose. I really dislike Striders for their looks, and Swordsmen for being bland as fuck despite their strength.

Now, how the fuck do I build a decent list out of those pieces? I usually like to play aggressively and go for assassinations, either via shenanigans/control or just plain punching through.

wow that is a gorgeous model

So my animantarax arrived yesterday

Meant to be a new Hordes faction in February, right? Do we know anything about it?

So I ordered a Cryx starter box. I played like two games of warmachine back in the first edition. I like the pirates of cryx, is it possible to do well with Skarre and some kind of satyxis/pirate list? From what I read, Cryx used to be overpowered, but now seem nerfed which is fine, balance comes and goes.

I have much to bitch about my trolls but I'm tired of this game and especially the company so I'm not that invested.

After speaking with people it's very painfully obvious that wm's success was despite PP's attempts not because of it.

I got other games now. I just don't have or have to care about the game anymore

So what wargames do you play where you love the company? Because I cannot think of a single game that gets discussed on Veeky Forums where the topic of conversation is "Oh man I love this company so much"

In an attempt to revive the thread:
How to we fix trollbloods /wmhg/?

Revert most of their animi from being self/beast only, and give their dedicated support pieces a way to make up for their cost.

The latter is the biggest problem with trolls in my opinion. If I take 40 points of units and 20 points of support, I expect to have 60 points of effectiveness on the board, ideally, given how my army isn't self-sufficient, it'd be nice to even have as high as 70 points of effectiveness.

However, as it stands right now,in the above scenario, you'll end up with about 50 points of effectiveness, because a) our support models bring pretty much zero threat to the table on their own, and b) many if not most of our models' baseline is ever so slightly below par, so that the support doesn't bring them above par to make up for the points we lose in support pieces, but rather makes them finally perform up to par.

Basically, Trolls are built as a support and synergy faction, where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, but neither the workhorses nor the support pieces deliver on that promise.

given the fact that trolls are now arguably the worst faction in the game, would now be the best time to pick up a bunch of models secondhand? I've always loved the troll aesthetic, and I'm fine sitting on the models and waiting for them to be viable again

>Trolls are built as a support and synergy faction
Maybe in Mk2 but not anymore. They lost everything that supported this playstyle and gained nothing to compensate

That's what I'm talking about. They still have a huge amount of support pieces, but the whole math of the faction is off. The support has gotten too expensive and the models you're supposed to be buffing to a degree where they make up for your points spent on support can barely carry their own weight.

Skarre and satyxsis are pretty solid. Hard to go wrong with either skarre in my opinion, but I prefer skarre1

Not February, I am pretty sure its summer with locknload

Huh. Wonder where I got February from, then.

I mean, I play Warmachine myself (Go Retribution) and so does most of my local scene, so I can't see the new army having too much of an impact on me personally, but I guess it's neat.

Have PP said anything about the state of Trollbloods?

The faction is officially, for reals this time, going to be announced at Smogcon in February. The rules will be released on March for community play testing with the actual models will be prereleased at Lock N Load in July.

Only that they're listening to feedback and that there won't be anymore faction overhauls like the Skorne errata.

If you're lucky when new theme force books come out existing stuff might get looked at

Does anyone have the stat card for the Skorne battlebox caster? My buddy lost his.

The Angelius is great. Typhon is great, the Raek is fun as balls, and the Neraph is my personal favorite shenanigans warbeast. and the sorceress&hellion gets better with more flyers. Sccythean is a decent workhorse heavy though I prefer carniveans.

imgur.com/a/Sd9St

Hopefully that works user

I'll play it with Morg2. Now if I heard that sentence a few months ago I'd call the guy insane.

Thanks mate
What app is that?

Warroom 2, the official PP app for warmachine/hordes. You can buy the decks on it and they auto update with all the stuff for whichever factions you buy

On the note of giving out cards, can someone give me the Winter Guard Artillery captain?

I can't run War Room on my Blackberry and the model hasn't released yet, so I have no actual way of checking what he does.

I have no love but I think ffg has done better job than ever expected with their star wars line given how poorly wiz kids handled trek in comparison.

It's really less love for companies but rather extreme bitterness against PP staff in general. I can't really think of other table top companies where frustrations can be directed at staffs by name as much as PP.

I was thinking hexy1 or hexy2 but morg2 is legit

Might be good to run with xerxis1 also, it's basically a heavy warbeast that he never has to worry about fury management with

He's a 3 cost solo with three special actions. Artillerist, or gives a weapon crew reposition 2, or Close Fire which does essentially nothing. It makes it so your weapon crew automatically misses friendly models, but that doesn't apply to blast damage so all it really does is make it so if you shoot an FFE'd field gun shot into a melee it can't miss and hit your own guys.

As a note, Clear might be future proofing for some kind of SP10 flamethrower or grapeshot weapon crew. As of now it does basically nothing.

It lets you not take friendly fire from aoes since aoes auto hit under the template but clear lets you auto miss

What does artillerist do?

Seems okay so far, but I don't think I want this guy when I'm running Field Guns.

AoEs don't work that way. If they did, stealth would also stop AoEs. Automatic miss, such as from stealth and from Clear! only works on direct hits, and aoe blast isn't a direct hit.

Target friendly faction model gains +2 RAT on its next AoE attack. If it misses, you can reroll the direction and/or distance.

Highly relevant because unlike the other abilities artillerist doesn't require a weapon crew, so he could target Victor for example.

Oh wow, that's actually pretty cool. Probably not for this list

Khador Army - 72 / 75 points
Theme: Winter Guard Kommand

(Irusk 2) Supreme Kommandant Irusk [+27]
- Conquest [37]

Winter Guard Infantry (max) [10]
- Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6]
- Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [0]

Winter Guard Rifle Corps (min) [8]
- Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6]

Winter Guard Rifle Corps (min) [8]
- Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6]

Winter Guard Rifle Corps (min) [8]
- Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6]

Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich [4]

Winter Guard Field Gun Crew [0]

Winter Guard Field Gun Crew [0]

But he sounds pretty cool for my Broadside spam list. Can't wait for that model.

Stealth is targeting from origin from more than 5 inches away. Blast doesn't target and even if so the origin of the blast, the center would be less than 5 inches away

The origin of the blast is the firer. The only thing the center of the blast matters for is trenches and shields. Distance is measured from the firer.

Clear and AoEs do not interact.

Broadside spam advice:

Take two kapitans. Kapitan #1 uses artillerist, victor shoots as per its normal activation. Kapitan #2 uses artillerist, broadside is cast, and now the second mortar shot benefits from artillerist as well. Being able to reroll deviation is so fucking good on victor.

Page 53 on hordes pdf.
Center of blast damage is origin for blast damage. Only model directly hit counts the shooter as the origin of the damage.

Give me the exact wording on clear. I don't use warroom

Attack sequence, prime, page 90.

Step 4: Resolve effects that cause an attack to hit or miss automatically

Step 7: Resolve the AOE hit or deviation. All models within the AOE at its final position are now hit by it.

Step 8: Resolve all other effects triggered by hitting or missing.

Automatic miss from Clear! and Stealth happen before you even check if models are hit by the blast template or not. Automatic miss cannot apply to blast hits.

Huh, so the sequence trumps it. Weird.

Alrighty then

Sounds dope, I like it.

>Basically, Trolls are built as a support and synergy faction, where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, but neither the workhorses nor the support pieces deliver on that promise

Convergence says welcome to the family

Any caster that can drop ARM makes the Animantarax insane. Hexxy1 has now become very strong become of this. Suddenly our low damage infantry can actually just kill heavies. Against a Circle heavies, he makes Nihilators need 5 to hit, then 3d6-2 each. Like damn son. The only problem is Hexxy1 is still too narrow. He still wants to be playing against Hordes armies spamming infantry.

Are people enjoying mk3 yet? I've been away for about a year.

The difference is that Convergence isn't hardlocked into having to pick 20+ points of pure support just to get the rest of your models up to par.

Imho, what we lost:
>jank and shenanigans
>realism
What we got:
>no more casting after charge
>no more upkeep cycling
Shit tradeoff.

>"Hey, do you know Warmachine? It's a tabletop game about huge steampunk robots controlled by wizards beating the shit out of each other."
>'That sounds sweet, how many robots do I need?'
>"Oh, just one. Maybe two. Not more than that though, since you need to play all this infantry."

pre-mk3 was a great game.

>upkeep cycling
You can still do this you know.

A gamestore near me is closing down and selling everything for 75% off, including a bunch of warmachine/hordes kits. Is this game any good? I dig the aesthetic and I've heard it's based around small unit combat so I won't need to put in too much money to put together a relatively sizable army.

Yes and no.

The game is absolutely better than Mk2. There's been a couple hiccups, all centered around goofy Infernal rulings, but the core rules are much better.

The problem is internal balance for a lot of factions really sucks. Factions have a handful of good models and then a large pile of garbage pieces. The best factions right now, unsurprisingly, are the ones that have more good models and the worst factions are the ones that lack decent answers

Can we stop this meme? The game isnt better now. It was better with more power attacks, psychology, water and wreck markers, because it felt like controlling tiny soldiers in a tiny world. Now it is just putting your model next to the enemy model and checking who got the bigger numbers on their card, because they removed any and all strategy and tricks.

>more power attacks
Half the power attacks didn't get used, and if they did, rarely for their intended purpose. Because 9/10 times, just slapping an enemy with one more attack was better than stalling him with a weapon lock.

>psychology
Fear checks were cancer.

>water
I guess, although it was kind of a part of why jacks weren't used back then.

>wreck markers
I actually agree, I wish they came back.

But don't kid yourself, Warmahordes has always been about checking who got the bigger numbers. In the end all you did was play alpha strike chicken about whose weapon master infantry would charge first.

What's it like being so wrong?

Those "strategies" as you call them, were called loopholes.

Before the power attack changes, DEF was an utterly pointless stat to skew and removing them opened up more of the game than it closed (anti-DEF models/spells have an actual use now, wow).

Water and psychology added realism at the expensive of keeping things simple and were simply cut for being too niche to come up frequently enough (water) or added another layer of randomness into a streamlined game (psychology).

Premeasuring always existed because of control-range bullshit and low-focus caster finally lost one of the biggest disadvantage high focus casters had over them for no reason.

And wreck markers... Are you seriously expecting this game would've survived if everyone has to spent 10 additional bucks for every warjack in their army when the game changed to having bigger battlegroups? This shit is expensive enough as is.

And that last point is trash too. All that ARM and POW is no use to a Khador Juggernaut if it gets out-threatened by EVERYTHING else n the game.

Power attacks did matter. Taking away a shield would allow to crack open a jack. Hold Mulg club and he suddenly is way less scary. Handholding was hillarious and I wholeheartedly support such tactics-they make the game interesting. Fear checks were a big part of list building (ua, fearless, terror) and something to consider before commiting a unit, adding a layer of strategy. But most importantly they made the games more immersive and worth remembering. Water was fun because it gave a fluffy strategic advantage to amphibious models and slamming stuff into water required positioning and thought, again making it more interesting.

You 250, bro?

Can we stop this "dying game is bad" meme?

The game is fine without your le unique arm locks and knockdown in shallow water gimmicks

I actually like premeasuring and agree with you on that. I hope you do realise wreck markers were perfectly legal to proxy in games, right? Water and psychology were the ONLY immersion measures in the game. Without them it reached the apogeum of bland. And power attacks could have been addressed differently. Like being able to dodge throws easily for high def.

I play Warmachine ever since pre-colossal mk2 and I have never seen Water or powerlocks ever come up in a game.

90% of all players probably didn't even know rules for either of those things existed.

"You're allowed to prox!" Oh gee, what a fantastic solution.

Why am I not replacing my Battlegroup with empty bases that have names written on them too? The game doesn't change after all, since the rules are the same.

At best, and this is a big IF, the game itself is better. It's a better board game.

Unfortunately, I got into a miniatures game. Yes, the rules were more complex and there were a fuckton more options. That's good. That's fun. There should always be more strategies, and being able to have a "Surprise, asshole" move in your back pocket with crazy shit is fun.

Mark 3 is probably a more solid game. Unfortunately, it's come at the expense of the big, white buzzword in the room - Fun. 2/3 of every army is garbage because there's always an objectively better choice; In Cryx, it's Satyxis, for example, but every army has it's must-pick models. 2/3 warcasters never see the light of day because of the game's focus on competition and it's emphasis on making such good choices; Yeah, you could take some warcasters, but why would you? Why take pStryker when Striker 3 works better with the best parts of the army and has a much more focused game plan?

And the game's been heading this way for a while; Remember when you could arm-lock larger models, and there were warjacks specifically made to run up and lock the weapons of dangerous warjacks, weakening it for the rest of your army? They invalidated at least 4 light warjacks with open fists when they changed that ruling for Colossals. And just like they did then, they invalidate a unit every time they make a new one or print a new errata, instead of just making a halfway balanced game with fun rules that doesn't need to be played in a tryhard manner.

>there were warjacks specifically made to run up and lock the weapons of dangerous warjacks, weakening it for the rest of your army?

That was never what they were intended for and you damn well know it.

go fondle boys somewhere else.

Well the game is dying ...will take a a while thoigh.

What are you talking about, in mk2 we had the same amount of overpowered god-choices and underpowered trash as far as in-faction balance was concerned.

Think about mk2 Winter Guard Infantry vs Winter Guard Rifles or just mk2 Cygnar in general.

The same goes for casters. Have you ever seen anyone ATTEMPT to use Zerkova1 in a game?

>my definition of fun is better than your definition of fun

For what its worth, there was probably a better way to fix arms locks and water effects, but over all, MK3 is better.

>It was better with more jank.
FTFY.

>psychology

lolno.

>water

Yes, because having a terrain type that was devastating to half the game but completely irrelevant to the other half was "better".

>wreck markers

I honestly forgot this was a change until mentioned.

The issue now is that it's hit egregious levels. The games are smaller so even slightly small power level difference are very apparent.

The other issue is that mkiii has made problems where there were none while not fixing existing issues.

No one was using throws as a reliable tool for consistent caster kills in the past because throws were unreliable. No one had issues charging knocked down models or flanking stationary models before.

This is on top of balance issues which still haven't addressed the garbo stuff of last edition while mucking around with things for "fluff" reasons.

Also the horrible PR after all that didn't help either

>Hold Mulg club and he suddenly is way less scary.

Horseshit.

Anything that had enough STR to reliably hold Mulg's club *and not have it broken on Mulg's next activation* was scary enough to just fucking kill Mulg to start with.

The core problem with it was that the ease of breaking out of locks (at least, on models scary enough that locking one of their weapons would be useful) made it so that it was essentially never a good play as opposed to just putting damage into the target.

>Well the game is dying ...will take a a while thoigh
That's what they said about GW for at least two decades.

>Well the game is dying ...will take a a while thoigh.

It's getting bigger in my meta. Your meta may just suck, probably because you're a part of it.

GW did have a steady decline until recently. While you can ignore the dead in a year naysayers, GW was effectively dying, on life support with licensing and massive fanbase they built over the decades.

PP hasn't done any of those. While the death isn't imminent, they do need to realize that they have bled now and more wounds will eventually be lethal

PP and GW survived the latest depression. Unless the new president crashes the world economy AGAIN I think both companies will be fine.
Barring any supreme ass fuckery.

>Unless the new president crashes the world economy AGAIN I think both companies will be fine.

So, they'll both be bankrupt within the year is what you're saying.

PP had cut out wreck markers in the back of the RB you plebs.

Why is Beast 09 21 points when Eye of Truth is 20?

Soles plays Menoth.

Because Protectorate needs something to make up for the brutal nerfing they received in the errata.

>Champagne socialist who doesn't understand how or why economies work

There was a good reason the US stock market boomed right after the election. In fact a lot of big-dick market speculators (Hillary donors, of course) lost truckloads of cash because they were operating under the assumption that she would win and the market would tank.

Who would've thought that an errata would make you want to finish painting a model?

>Inb4 "How to photo a mini.jpg"

Clean your fucking keyboard

Suck my dick.