Setting is nature vs technology

What do you think people do on Veeky Forums?

I'd say both are political and ethical statements.

Since the only source of intelligence we know irl is mankind, painting the human in a bad light is almost always a cautionary tale about what irks the author in the current world.

Putting them in the good guy shoes is the same. If humanity triumphs over the aliens from Zorglub III because of the power of friendship/overwhelming firepower/..., that's probably because the author thinks that those traits are desirable, rather than humanity is superior.

Ideological separation is way easier when the two viewpoints belong to clearly different species.

>what are some cyberpunk settings where humans are on the side of virtue and the other guys are just assholes?
real life - for a given definition of "human" and "the othe guys"

This is why my little slice of oc cyberpunk sidesteps these issues with a handwave. The situation has already been dealt with and instead things like augmentation and the technology that has turned the world into curosant meets a forge world is considered the norm

>cyberpunk settings
>someone is clearly on the side of virtue

This is some weird "I've had my mind poisoned by HFY" shit right here.

Nature vs. Technology? There are humans on Nature's side, and its ultimately for the betterment of humans.
Android rights? There are humans campaigning for android rights, and its ultimately for the betterment of humans.

Stop trying to act like these are X vs. Human plots, you dumbass.

>setting is nature vs technology
>technology is considered right because humans are advanced and need resources
>setting is sentient androids vs humans
>humans are considered right because androids refuse to accept tradition and biology that threatens them

See, I'd rather the setting just make up its mind instead of having both of these be true.

If Technology is Bad, then Androids are Bad.

I really hate how HFY turned from a fresh perspective on traditional SF into murder and genocide glorifying, jingoistic crap.

It was always going to turn out that way.

It's written by wannabe murderhobos for wannabe murderhobos. Where do you think you are?

>setting is blank vs. blank
>good v evil dichotomy instead of being subjective

>fresh

Shut the fuck up already, you stupid piece of shit.
"Humans being victorious" has happened since the start of science fiction, all HFY did was say "Boo hoo hoo, humans don't win ALL the time, that means they need to win more!!"

There's nothing fresh about it except idiots confusing complex concepts with "X vs. Humans", like they think it's some sort of cosmic volleyball game.

>subjectivity
>in a world where readers want to ESCAPE from nuance, complexity, and the total lack of any objective qualities in the world they know and live in

Faggots in Veeky Forums need it more since it become more apparent that everyone is dominating over them in real life too much.
They are more successful in life, marry the crush they like and have children and properties that those faggots will never have.
Dehumanizing the others and then making the plot supposedly underdog useless pathetic """humans""" (a.k.a their self insert) win satisfy their ego despite that those stories do nothing to change their real life situation where everyone dominate over them.

FUCK YOU HAIRLESS APE, GIBBON RIGHTS

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Is that a Hunter on the left?

The animatrix turned the matrix setting into that retro-actively.

>>setting is nature vs technology
>>nature is considered right because humans are too advanced and destroy nature for resources.

>nature is considered inherently good at all
I want the hippies to leave

>muh luddites muh trees muh progress is bad
>for the betterment of humans

>all this projection
Christ allmighty, there is nothing worse than armchair psychologists.

Jesus fucking Christ, it boggles my mind how retards like you can breath and type at the same time.

Yeah, that's exactly not what it was, you fucking idiot. It was about looking at humanity as something else than the "average". It all started with a point that even on Earth, humans are kind of weird, and that we just view ourselves as the default in science fiction because we are us.

You're an utter fucking retard if you think it was always about "winning", and that's exactly what I'm speaking out against, you mong. Try to fucking read the posts you respond to before getting triggered.

The only idiot here is you.

Quit trying to make HFY more than it was, especially with that old stupid "boo hoo hoo, humans are used as the baseline in D&D and that makes me think the designers are calling them boring because I exclusively play humans" bullshit.

You HFY fags just never give up, do you?

It's Robot.
It's a fugitive android who's friends with the two main girls.

>Implying trees stand in the way of progress

>There are humans on Nature's side, and its ultimately for the betterment of humans.
I want the earth liberation front internet defense force to leave

But I love nuance. I get so tired of the people around me trying so hard to pretend things are black and white that I want to escape from THEM and dive face first into a world of subjectivity.

You never find these in the same setting.

I really like the Uplift universe when it comes to this type of story. In the series Humans (and Neochimps and Neodolphins) are the plucky underdogs who keep pulling wins out of their asses, but this isn't really due to some unspecified quality of Humanity but due to the fact that Humans weren't raised to sapience into a billions year old civilization of stagnation. And later in the series we meet member of alien species who have intentionally gone primitive and rejected the galactic civilization, and with just a little push from humanity end up going their own way and they are much like humans in that they are able to grow, change, and adapt without just being humans in a different body.

>technology is considered right because humans are advanced and need resources

Yep, but resources are finite, so better direct all the resources and research into the whole mass and energy theory and create infinite mass and energy.

>humans are considered right because androids refuse to accept tradition and biology that threatens them

Why not give the androids a biological upgrade and make them techno-organic?

Well, they do kinda get in the way when you're putting in roads.

>when you make humans unambiguously right, you are a little egocentric
No you're not.

>humans are a faction
>advanced horticulturalism doesn't have environmental impacts beyond the positive
>humans don't immediately abuse the shit out of AI
>AI looks enough like a person that it either has or desires rights
>whole classes of beings acting like Bethesda RPG factions complete with varying degrees of sympathy and plot holes
>just wanting to alter how sympathetic your favorite faction is rather than scrapping the whole thing

Humans are virtually never a compelling entity as a whole in a story because it's hard to get a good look at something from inside it. It's kind of similar to the reason characters based on the author are so often so weak.

On the topic of peeves in general, the "high minded" shit often isn't much better.
>people have consistent identities, reliable memories, and a clear understanding of the motivations that drive their actions
>they both value and retain these things in a transition into something other than human
>they make the transition willingly rather than largely by accident or for reasons that aren't really clear to them either in the moment or in retrospect

>digital/dream/magic worlds look like the real world but with solipsistic power fantasies and whatever special effects are hot now
>alternatively blue shit with no consistent UI, except that space functions intuitively like space in spite of all the shit you can't do in that system (such as chatting with two people who are available to you but not to each other)
>illusions are pixel perfect recreations of things rather than concepts standing in for objects (the viewer is projecting the idea of a tree into the space) or pixel perfect recordings from past experience, leaving the implications of those alternatives unexplored

>Not having the human/android fighting end up completely fucking pointless since all the humans were actually extremely realistic androids that didn't know it.

>Humans vs Androids
The Animatrix is probably one of the fastest piece of media to turn people towards the Machines and against Humans.

It's a Romanticism vs Enlightenment argument.

I thought cynicism was a central element of cyber punk. Hence the punk.

What you want is cyberhfy.

Oh, and by the way, the setting you're looking for is either Star trek or Mass effect.

>Inhumans vs sentinels

>Setting is Transhumanism
>48 fucking flavors of humanity
>Erryone mah nigga
>No aliens, just different types of human and biotech animals, some of which are so different to baseline as to be alien minded so perfect excuse for 'Star Trek' aliens and earth-like ecosystems all over
>Rampant expansionism due to out of control seeder ships means that humanities expansion is exponential and explorers just keep discovering new worlds that have had life dropped on them and left to their own devices
>No unsubtle HURR, WHAT IS IT TO BE A MAN type themes, just based space niggas being excellent to one another
Truly, best setting

It was explicitly about giving humans a hat other than "the normal guy", though.
The only way you wouldn't know this is if you were not here when it first happened.
This stance is further backed by how you seem to be adopting some sort of tribal stance instead of discussing the issue.

You, sir, are not well read.

Hey guess what.
I wanna play as hexxus SUPER BAD.
No game lets me, though.

I would enjoy playing/running this.

I really love FernGully. No joke.

Check out Energeos if you can still find anything for it online.

>Check out Energeos if you can still find anything for it online.
All I can find is a couple of posts talking about it on Veeky Forums.

>X vs Y
>Someone is """""objectively""""" right

So, is that organism an article of clothing or a person or both?

Fern gully was great, but it added to my "the villains always are way cooler and have a much better time" mentality.

Now, as an adult, I fucking love polluting because everyone doing it, be it from captain planet or fern gully, is having a great time and getting super rich.

Maybe contact the author if you can find him? He joined the military and might have died, though.

>It was explicitly about giving humans a hat other than "the normal guy", though.

That's just about never been the scenario though. Humans as the baseline doesn't necessarily mean they're "normal" (especially because normal is relative), and more importantly they tend to have a degree of versatility that makes them either the strongest or one of the strongest playable races.

What most game designers don't do is try to define humanity with narrow and naive definitions, which is a common and embarrassing symptom of HFY.
And, there's never been an "explicit" HFY purpose, with different people arguing different reasons, each more inane than the last. Ultimately, it's just a purposeless writing prompt for people who have warped perceptions, somehow believing that the most victorious and popular race in fiction both isn't interesting enough or doesn't win enough, so they tackle that imaginary issue by writing terrible fiction with humanity succeeding by exaggerated aspects poorly understood by the writer that are then treated as the sole defining features of a race not quite so easily defined.

HFY is like a bizarre way to willfully make yourself stupid, to stop looking at stories in any terms beyond "are the humans winning or losing?" Even attempts to break away from this crippling question just end up going the long route back to it, because HFY has always only ever been a terrible joke made to address a non-issue.

>That's never the scenario though
>most game designers make humans the baseline versatile guys

You literally are agreeing with them RIGHT NOW and you don't even know it.

>What are the settings where humans, who can't even decide themselves which side they are on in even the most basic political questions, are on the virtuous side
Gee, I wonder. Maybe some kind of grand utopia where everyone is a clone of Bob the fiscally conservative everyman from Michigan.

In grand Bobtopia, humans are on the side of virtue, because every human is fiscally conservative Bob.

>baseline versatile
>boring normal

You seem stupid. The baseline is because something needs to be the baseline, and humans are chosen because they're not only the only real race so we actually have a frame of reference, but they're also the race we should be innately familiar with. Having Elves have +2 vision and humans +0 is no different from having humans have -2 vision and elves +0 instead. "Normal" is relative, and treating humans as the outlier serves no purpose for a game.

Versatile is far from being boring, and is in fact what enables humans to be the key to many of the more interesting character types. Beyond being the most popular race in every edition of D&D and just about every other game as well, they also tend to be one of the stronger races, and this "versatility" is the core of that.

To not understand this, and to complain about how the designers didn't decide to try and hamfist a "all humans are X" definition onto them, is being stupid and upset for all the wrong reasons. Everyone defines humans differently, from person to person, and the "versatility" allowed by the designers is so that each person can come to their own individual conclusions without trying to force their personal definitions on anyone else.

No human enjoys another human telling them that they can define humans better than they can.

>There needs to be a baseline, so we always choose humans
Yes, that is their point, and the thing they disliked.

Humans being the boring versatile ones is sort of super played out.
As is us being the diplomatic ones.

Just make the Human vs Android thing like any real life revolution, the sides may not be "wrong" but they are total assholes to each other and from an outside point of view both are unlikeable cunts.

>the thing they dislike is the thing that makes sense and has no reason to be disliked except due to warped perceptions

It's like you're trying to be stupid.

What part of what was written didn't seem to get through to you? It's not "played out", it's what makes sense. It's like trying to say that humans being human is played out, which is largely why most HFY stories aren't about humans, but bizarre caricatures of humanity created by people with very little sense looking through distorted lenses.

Humans are not boring. Their "versatility" allows people to personally define humans for themselves without forcing their ideas on people anyone who would disagree because they value different traits.

You need to stop treating your own personal mental hangups as having any basis. Calling humans boring because they serve as the baseline is forgetting that these are the same humans that the HFY idiots worship (when they're not inventing new races of "Humans except they're defined by a single trait and that results in something completely alien but I'm going to call it human anyway").

Since you seem to be so hung up about humans being "versatile", what's your opinion of human groups that aren't portrayed in that way, but only due to backstory about said group, such as political beliefs or past incidents? Most HFY stories that are good usually have this kind of approach, and distinctly make this clear.

Diff user btw

"Versatile" is the wrong word. "Resistant to Singular Definition" is more appropriate.

So, are you being stupid on purpose about how someone might get tired of humans being the default versatile guys?
Because it seems like you are.

But humans shouldn't be the versatile guy if aliens exist.
Each should be good and bad at things due to natural species differences.
Them being the versatile guys is a lazy shorthand used by people who don't want to actually think hard about aliens.

What part of my explanation seems to have failed to enter your brain? You would need to be dumb on purpose, because "default versatile" is what I'm explaining isn't what they are, it's just a failure of your perception.

Regardless of what aliens appear, it makes sense to first compare them using humans as the baseline. How many times does this need to be explained to you.

How many times do you need it explained that regarding humans as a baseline is an error in perception, and they will most likely have traits unique to them like aliens do?
It seems your petty grudges are getting in the way of your capacity to understand these things.

>No unsubtle HURR, WHAT IS IT TO BE A MAN type themes,
You are the cancer that is killing science-fiction.

>when you realize that nature vs. technology is actually about whether to crudely remain with a dim and slow-burning light, or expire in a magnificent and fiery spark

the matrix

Close, but no cigar.

>Technology is considered right because with it lies the key to preserve the universe, and without its presence nature will eventually be subsumed by entropy and forgotten

>Nature vs technology story
>'Antagonist' is the Earth's will made manifest or some shit
>Shows up to wipe out humans because they 'are a disease to the planet and nature itself'
>Never once is it touched on the fact that humans are a part of nature, and any other species, if they had reached human's heights, would do the exact same, all for growth of the species.

That would be loads of fun, but I feel without some conflict their wont be much plot. Unless its something along the lines of
"Our Gorrilla Uplift niggas on Taris IV are all out of space bananas. The Tropical world of Nu Caledonia has plenty, but the local Mer people have relinquished technology for a more basic way of life, and have no means of transporting their abundant space bananas."

What part of you thinks that humans as the baseline is a universal statement, you absolute, irredeemable, aliens-can-use-your-personal-level-of-intelligence-as-the-verifiable-nadir-of-all-species idiot?

It's just for the sake of convenience and for use as a starting point. And, if you think that a trait humans have would be unique, what you're simultaneously describing is aliens who are unique for lacking those traits. In fact, from any sensible perspective, the latter is essentially the more interesting thing you are describing, and yet you somehow think that you are making humans the ones that are more interesting. Ultimately, we are familiar with humans, and at the point where you exaggerate a trait we possess to the point where you think you can write a story about it, you've exaggerated it to the point where the humans are barely recognizable as being humans.

You can't tell me "Look how special humans are! We have two eyes, when those aliens have one hundred!" and then expect me to want to ignore the hundred-eyed alien just because you're upset because you think that no one appreciates how great having two eyes is. We do. Most of us have two eyes. We don't need to be conquering galaxies because we have two eyes for us to understand that two eyes are neat.

>It's just for the sake of convenience because we are lazy
Yeah, that's what they've been saying. It's lazy and boring.

user, you're the only one going on about conquering galaxies.
other people are going on about how humans should be markedly different than aliens, and not the bland versatile guy or diplomatic guy.
There's probably an alien out there WAY better at being versatile or diplomatic.

I don't think you have a single statement about this topic that isn't made of strawmen from one end of the spectrum of a genre you claim to dislike and want to destroy.

I hope this isn't another one of those "If I like it, it's not the genre I don't like" scenarios like that asshole was doing with steampunk.

Holy fuck, you're a moron.

This isn't about being lazy, it's about being intelligent.

You're the kind of guy who, when presented with a simple and elegant method, decides that instead you will choose a pointlessly roundabout that accomplishes less, produces worse, and only succeeds in satisfying you and your ego because you value that far above what you value sense and reason.

There's no reason to dislike humans as the baseline if you have a basic understanding of why humans are the baseline, and how a baseline is simply a matter of perspective.

>other people are going on about how humans should be markedly different than aliens, and not the bland versatile guy or diplomatic guy.

You mean aliens should be markedly different from humans.

And no one said anything about bland. And rather than versatile, resistant to singular definition.

Please, don't call HFY a genre. It's a dumb writing prompt at best, and you need to be a special kind of idiot to think that constitutes a genre.

Try reading for once. There's a fair amount of statements there you seem to refuse to allow to sink in.

Here. Let me highlight some important passages for you.

>And, if you think that a trait humans have would be unique, what you're simultaneously describing is aliens who are unique for lacking those traits.

>Ultimately, we are familiar with humans, and at the point where you exaggerate a trait we possess to the point where you think you can write a story about it, you've exaggerated it to the point where the humans are barely recognizable as being humans.

Those points don't really hold any weight, user.
>It's not bland, I just refuse to try to accurately gauge what they are good at because it will offend somebody. I don't care how boring that is

That's pretty much the entire argument here.

user, understanding why they are the baseline doesn't make it less boring, overplayed, and lame. Your argument is based entirely around the idea that it's impossible for someone to get bored of a thing if they understand it.
It's a genre now. It's even got dedicated haters and everything.

>modern Veeky Forums shits on things it used to like because it is full of hipsters and no oldfags
>hipsters can't even recall the correct order of events, but argue until they are blue in the face anyway based on strange impressions and incorrect timelines
How "cringey"

Stop being willfully stupid, user.

>it's bland because I say humans being humans is bland

Humans are not changed in the translation into statistics. They have their full capabilities and moreso.

You call it boring, because, once again, you are an utter moron who fails to understand that what we're talking about is a matter of perspective, something you fail to wrap your head around no matter how many times its repeated to you, you dense fuck.

You want to define humanity. You want it to be the X race or the Y race, when all you are doing is creating and defining fictional races by what they lack, and stupidly thinking that you are doing something novel when you're just going about the process ass backwards.

Also, it's not a matter of offending anyone. It's a matter of you trying to tell people they need to accept your version of humanity when they happen to be human too.

Tell me, how long have you been this stupid? This is some particularly ingrained stupidity that seems to be coming from you.

>It's boring because you're stupid, you couldn't possibly understand the reasons why people do it and then still find it boring even though they do it every single time
You've hit full retard, user.

>user, understanding why they are the baseline doesn't make it less boring, overplayed, and lame.

Try understanding it first before you decide its "boring, overplayed, and lame." It sounds like you actually may be too stupid to understand why it's done, even when it's explained to you.

You genuinely seem like a moron, because this is not a matter of it being boring, this is it being a matter of not being stupid. The alternatives presented range from the dumbest ideas ever conceived to naive essays written by people who should be the last to consider themselves spokespeople of the human race.

>It's not a matter of offending people, it's a matter of offending people
Hipsterism apparently rots the mind.

>people do something smart
>that's boring

No, you're stupid.

Humanity isn't meant to have certain powers...

>You can't be bored of the thing I like and do every single time, you must not understand it, you're dumb!
Full retard achieved.

>i don't understand basic language

Do you even understand the futility of trying to convince another human that you are more of an expert on being human than they are? Or are you permanently dumb?

I feel like Morpheus' VR PowerPoint implied that humans messed it up it in the original movie.

>unable to understand logical consequences
Everyone needs to be convinced of and like what you are doing! You don't want to offend anybody!