/5eg/ D&D Fifth Edition General: Sorcerer Edition

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> Previous thread
What sorcerous origins do you hope to see on the 30th? Or do you think WotC will surprise people again with something other than sorcerers?

Other urls found in this thread:

theangrygm.com/take-the-suck-out-of-inspiration/
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Elemental, either specifically or based on the Djinn.
Either Fey or Planar based origin, involving mental manipulation and/or movement options.
Something else entirely unexpected, possibly referencing an old monster not in 5e.

Maybe they'll try to actually fucking fix sorcerer.

The guy who play Bard with animated dead...

You knew that Aura of vitality is the only healing spell that work on undead right?

That Kek patron needs a PDF.

This tbqh.

I think the thing I hate most about Sorc is that it basically requires metagaming, because if you pick metamagic for thematic reasons you just end up with a shitty wizard.

They really should have just made sorcerers use Spell Points by default, but i can see the issues with multi-classing arising if they didn't use the Spellcasting Feature.

What exactly is wrong with Sorcerer? That they get less spells than wizards? I've never really found that to be a super huge problem personally. They're a good class for someone who just wants to blast things as opposed to being a Batman utility-wizard.

As far as bloodlines I'd like to see...

>Fey
Seems cool for more charm/enchanting builds

>Celestial/Abyssal
Maybe fluff Celestial as something similar to the Undying Light Warlock. Not entirely sure what to do with Abyssal, but might as well include it since Celestial is there. Maybe expand on Draconic's tankiness and give them even more defensive abilities, or some kind of health regeneration abilities.

>Undead
Necromancer sorcerer, or perhaps something like Great Old One Warlock

>Elemental or Djin
We already have Draconic, but I wouldn't mind a more "focused" elemental bloodline

>Verdant
Basically the druid cross-class option.

>spell list
Eh. I guess destructive wave is pretty good and normally only tempest clerics and paladins get it. But whatever, it's fine, though maybe ... Say, Tasha's Hideous Laughter instead of inflict wounds. Some of the spells could have better counterparts if you re-read the spell list.

>frog god
You shouldn't reward inspiration as part of an ability. Inspiration is the DM's domain. Also, putting it as a flat perception check makes it kinda compulsory to have perception. Rather, no perception check, and not something entirely DM dependent like a frog showing up. I'd give them an ability that's more like 'posting a frog', say, summoning a decoy frog or something.

>dubs
As weird as being more likely to succeed with disadvantage than to succeed with a normal attack is if the target has super high AC... It's fine, probably. Not a bad ability nor OP ability for multiclassing, too.

>BTFO
I barely understand what's going on here, but... Sure. Whatever.

>OP's a fag
Level 10 abilities are almost solely focused on resistance, but I guess you're half there.
You shouldn't have reactions that can be used at any time during a thing. They need a definite trigger, like, 'OP attacks somebody' - 'okay, I use my reaction to grant them disadvantage' or grant whoever it attacks resistance to the damage.
And it's hard to truly define when a save throw is 'against' somebody, but I guess it's semi-obvious.

>shitpost
Usage is a bit niche for an action. Buff it.

Why not print some unique Sorcerer spells, slightly more slot efficient blasting or nuke+debuff options, something to differentiate them from wizards in a more meaningful way than simply stronger archetypes.

The only problem with going 100% spell points is making sure the Sorc doesn't just dump them all into 9th level spells (they're blasty but that's too blasty) without resorting to some kinda convoluted rules.

I was kind of thinking a neat tweak would be to keep their spells a fixed list but let them "prepare" metamagic each day like a druid or cleric does spells. That might encourage players to experiment more and not just pick the same metamagic for every character (although there would still be some of that going on)

They're just wizard but worse with metamagic.

You could make sorcerer a wizard archetype if you gave wizard metamagic.

Though, sorcerers are good for multiclassing.

Also, non-fire dragon sorcerers often start running out of spells.

A good fix would be to give each elemental sorcerer an 'evolving spell list' instead. Say, you start with something like 'produce flame', then 'burning hands', then 'scorching ray', then 'fireball', and so on. You get them all for free.
An acid dragon gets similar abilities except acid.

Hopefully though it'd introduce some new abilities instead of just giving you refluffed versions of fireball etc. The idea is that the sorcerer doesn't cast precise spells - because they can cast a fireball, they can also cast a smaller fireball, or a firebolt, or produce fire from their hands, or heat food, or whatever. A wizard only knows precise spells.

Metamagic doesn't fulfill the 'sorcerers can fuck about with their magic' concept because it's mostly just quicken spell / twin spell with the occasional odd extra metamagic thrown in.

Do you use a combat grid in your games?

Or does your DM make it up as they go along?

So here's my group:

Half-Orc Samurai / Warlock
Aasimar Monk of the Open Hand
Lizardfold Bard of Blades
Elf Cleric of Knowledege

Who are we betting will die first?

I suppose you could use the Warlock method, let them pick a specific 7,8,9 spell to cast at will once per long rest, but for no point cost.

Throw in some unique spells for sorcerers, call their new "spellcasting" something else, like Inherited Magic, and wham, its at least more unique than it is now.

>Spell list
The spell list I picked without much thought. I was going to pick Tasha's but it's already part of the Great Old One list.

>Frog god
Fair enough, although I figured this essentially was in the DM's domain since they'd have control over weather or not a frog ever appears in the campaign. I was more focused on avoiding the player being able to trigger this at will with a frog familiar or something.

>Dubs
I hesitated on the disadvantage part, since it might tempt people into dropping prone to attack and other stupid shit. But if the math makes that advantageous then you didn't have a hope in hell anyway, which is kind of on point for Kek...

>BTFO
It's basically blinding smite on kill. A bit wordy yeah, trying to shoe-horn the random chance bit in there.

>OP's a fag
It started out as resistance but I added saves and the other stuff to try and flesh it out a bit. The intention is that it only affects yourself too, so it should be if OP attacks you, or makes you roll a save, or moves within 5 feet, etc.

>Shitpost
Started out significantly stronger (d8's) but after feeding it through a dice calculator I realized a character with like +6 or +7 CHA could dump like 75 damage into a single target if they rolled well enough. Although I do like the idea that you could target your allies with shitpost so they can voluntarily fail the save - but then if no enemies fail, one of your friends is really fucked.

Thnx for the feedback btw

That's not a bad idea for the spells actually

And why don't sorcs have any unique spells? Is there a reason other than WotC being masturbatory?

>And why don't sorcs have any unique spells? Is there a reason other than WotC being masturbatory?
I imagine its difficult to figure out what a sorcerer could do that a wizard couldn't figure out. The reverse makes sense, some things just don't fit the raw nature of a sorcerer, but the current way it works, nothing stops a wizard from harnessing the raw magic.

Plus, some things that would make perfect sense for sorcerer, Burning Hands being obvious to me, are grandfathered into the wizard class by old editions.

Not that its a good excuse, but i can see why it would be hard to design well.

Thought those shoulder webs were armpit hair for a second

>nothing stops a wizard from harnessing the raw magic.

Except that the wizard doesn't have the blood of a creature of immense primal magic...

Neither do most non-dragon sorcerer. Notice that the feature is called "Sorcerous Origin" and not "Bloodline."

Lvl 2 bard here planning on going lore.

What kind of buff/debuff spells are most akin to the buff/debuff spells in SMT but for 5e?

I'm honestly curious: what's wrong with the Sorcerer?

I agree, and, like i said, i think things that are just straight elements and the like should be sorcerer exclusive.
Acid Splash, Burning Hands, Earth Tremor, Immolation, Fireball are some that feel more "raw" to me than trained and precise.

Note that one example, Firestorm, is actually NOT a wizard spell, but shared with druids/clerics, which is one of the ONLY good ways the sorcerer was handled.

It's too similar to wizard, while Wizard is also too versatile/strong while the sorcerer is fairly middle of the road in terms of power.

To further my thoughts, Scorching Ray could easily be Sorcerer, while Aganazzar's Scorcher could be the rough Wizard equivalent.

In fact, i would LOVE if Wizard got many more spells named after Wizards, while sorcerers got general names for their less refined effects.

I think it's clear enough that it would've been easy to do something for sorcerers and they just decided not to. Probably because the point of the edition is to fix 3.5 in a different way from replacing it entirely like 4e did.

Okay. So is it just a lack of spells known?

Wizard can prepare more spells than the sorcerer learns total and have a much better spell list.

Wizard schools are generally more useful and focused than sorcerer bloodlines and meta-magic (with a few exceptions like Twinning Haste).

One of the sorcerers saves is wasted on Charisma, which is used for absolutely nothing right now.

Charisma as a casting stat is great for cross classing, but the only skills tied to it are mostly conversation skills, which you'll be competing with the tons of other charisma casters for. Meanwhile the Wizard, who uses Int, can play Pokedex with no competition.

>Warlocks took all the cool Sorcerous Origins except Draconic and then named them Patrons.

>Speaking of Draconic... it's the only good sorcerer subclass. The others all suck or are boring.

>Sorcerers still don't get healing of any kind, and lack good status/control spells aside from Enchanting, so their spell list may actually be less versatile than that of clerics, bards, and druids.

The wizard is stronger due to spells known, which provides versatility, their archetype features, which are often quite versatile or powerful, a small number of exclusive spell options, and rituals, which let wizards not spend resources to do things that the average sorcerer can't do at all.

It isn't that sorcerers are terrible in general, its just that they are almost entirely a less versatile, less powerful wizard.

>spell list
No harm in having overlap with other patron's spell lists if i's fitting.

Nystul's Magic Aura is probably appropriate, too.
>anonymous

Yeah, I was thinking that too, but...Having such an ability is odd. Well, if you think of it more like a ribbon ability, you could probably keep it as is. Just don't make a skill check, make it a.. Flat wisdom check I guess.

>OP
You could probably do 'as a reaction to OP moving within 5ft of you, you may move away as a reaction', possibly triggering a reaction attack but avoiding a melee attack but hey, if they use the reaction on their turn they don't get it back until the start of their next turn. I'd probably have all of them be reactions, though. For the attack, it'd be interesting to have 'as a reaction to OP saying something' being the trigger for the attack, which is a bit nonstandard but kinda fun.

I guess shitpost is kinda broken as an idea. It's first a little unfair to tie it to charisma modifer and kinda just encourages getting charisma to 20 even more than it's already encouraged. I don't see how you could do ridiculous damage though because it's only up to 5d6 at best, which is... Terrible, honestly. The main use is to take away reactions. Also, each creature taking 1 damage is kinda awkward math-wise with the DM having to lower all of their HP by different insignificant amounts.

Lack of spells known is supposed to be one of the Sorcerer's weak points though. If Wizard is the swiss army knife, Sorc is supposed to be the specialist. I don't think they got it quite right though.

Personally I think they should double down on the metamagic idea since it's really the only aspect of the class that's both significant and unique in concept. Unfortunately, some options are just bad (distant spell), ripped off from other classes (careful spell), overly neutered (extended spell), or entirely better than most other options (twinned spell).

Frankly I'd love even if they just released a revised and extended metamagic list at this point.

Even with an extended Meta-Magic list, the sorcerer gets access to too few varieties of it (and quickened spell and twinned spell are clearly the best).

Honestly the Sorcerer should have the entire list of meta-magic available at all times. Not like druids have to start out only knowing two animal forms or anything.

They could just give Sorcerers more spell slots. Wizards get a broad selection of spells but Sorcerers get to do magic more often.

Or let Sorcerer slots refresh on a short rest. Let the world burn.

how do i make fights require or encourage teamwork? besides the party's cleric healing other players, combat always seems like a mad dash to inflict as much damage possible on the enemy. it doesn't hep that the monk player rolled way to well on his stats and outshines the others in every fight because he has a +5 to initiative and all his damage

is there anyway to create a profound sense of teamwork and cooperation with a mechanic or maybe throwing super tough monsters at the party?

>What sorcerous origins do you hope to see on the 30th? Or do you think WotC will surprise people again with something other than sorcerers?

Planetouched or Djin bloodlines (cause we need something that isn't just dragons)

Alchemical (special focus on buffing poison and acid spells)

Fey (similar to fey warlock)

Wizard bloodlines (some smartass wizard managed to impring his spellbook and ritual book into his fucking sperm cells)

And additional Dragon bloodlines like Steel.

>Nystul's Magic Aura is probably appropriate, too.
I'm all ears if you have more suggestions or an entirely new list. I basically just filled it out because I had to, and spent most of my time dreaming up new abilities. One that almost made the cut was a 1-round banishment on hit (called "B&" of course).

>Flat wisdom check I guess.
Yeah, that's a better idea.
I figured frog spotting had to be in there somewhere, but maybe there's a better way to do it.
Also I'm secretly sad that my DM has not once uttered the word "inspiration" our entire campaign so far. ;_;

>as a reaction to OP saying something
Neat idea, although I can see rule lawyers pointing to the verbal component of a spell as a trigger. Which, actually, maybe isn't so bad since a lot of DM's don't usually have chatty cannon fodder...

>I don't see how you could do ridiculous damage though because it's only up to 5d6 at best
6d6 actually, since you always get 1d6 by default (representing yourself), plus 5 targets, not that it's a huge difference. Damage wise I was worried about DMs handing out magical items that might put you over 20, although I guess that's the DM's problem. The original dice were d8's but I err'd conservative since homebrew always gets nailed for being too strong.

> It's first a little unfair to tie it to charisma modifer and kinda just encourages getting charisma to 20 even more than it's already encouraged
Probably best to just fix it at 5. A level 14 warlock is likely to have max CHA anyways but this would open up the ability to eccentric builds also, plus it solves the >20 CHA problem above.

> Also, each creature taking 1 damage is kinda awkward math-wise with the DM having to lower all of their HP by different insignificant amounts
Fair point - the idea was that if you used your friends to amp up shitpost they would all have to give up their reaction (at the very least), but that can be done more cleanly I think.

Try spicing up the battlefield a bit maybe.
Last memorable fight I had we were a little outmatched, but there was a reoccurring lightning trap in the room that fired a huge bolt of lightning every other round. The fight quickly became a contest of grappling, shoving, and trying to push the other side into the line of fire and pin them there to fry. Shit got real hairy near the end when our Paladin got lit up by the trap and took a dirt nap. Fortunately he was saved by our druid who hulked up with Enhance Ability and carried his fat ass to safety before the trap finished him off.

>Also I'm secretly sad that my DM has not once uttered the word "inspiration" our entire campaign so far. ;_;

I don't know if that's better or worse than my DM who hands it out for people making her laugh outside of roleplay.

Aberrant Sorcerer, maybe with some minor mutation, like webbed feet (for swimspeed), huge eyes (for darkvision), clawed hands etc. There is nearly not enough Far Realm-flavoured options.
Axiomatic Sorcerer with ties to Mechanicus.
A blood mage kind of sorcerer, maybe?
But basically, there are not a whole lot of possible options to fill. We already got a dragon one, which is a classic, a lolrandumb one, an elemental, a holy sorcerer and an sickdark sorcerer. Need a nature one, a "law" option and we'd be pretty much set.
What I'd rather see are new metamagics that would make playing a sorcerer truly worthwhile and new spells unique to the sorc spell list, even though it technically should share it with wizards. Same for warlocks - I want new invocations instead of useless patrons.
>Alchemical (special focus on buffing poison and acid spells)
That's a pretty cool one, I like that a lot.

Look at how MMO's with "raids" do boss fights and steal some of those mechanics. Make bosses where every member of the party has to be doing something in order to make the boss vulnerable or keep the party alive. If you've got divine casters, but in some kind of cursed miasma that can only be held at bay by divine spells. If you got some arcane casters, put some spell circles around the room that need to be disabled with an arcana check to weaken a barrier around the boss, while the rogue does parkour stuff to hit switches that disable traps around these spell circles.

Angry GM had an interesting solution that I want to try some time. The full rant is here theangrygm.com/take-the-suck-out-of-inspiration/ but holy fuck does he write a lot, so the tl;dr version is this:

-Everyone starts each session with inspiration, and since you can only have one it's use it or lose it.
-The players choose when they want to use inspiration on a roll, but they must justify it to the DM in relation to their character's personality. Example: "My ideal is beauty so I want to use inspiration on my persuasion roll to ask the attractive princess to help us." If the DM ok's it they can roll with advantage.
-When players don't have inspiration, they can basically do the same thing but in reverse by taking disadvantage on a roll. Example: "My flaw is greed so I'm distracted by the dragon's shiny loot hoard on this attack." If the DM ok's it they get inspiration back.

Biggest benefit is it offloads most of the work from the DM onto the players.
Biggest drawback is that players are monsters and will abuse the hell out of these things, so the DM has to keep a short leash on that shit.

>Alchemical (special focus on buffing poison and acid spells)
I really like this one.
Hell, I'd have to use it.

I dig it. Would take a decent DM to manage it, but that's true of pretty much the whole game.

Makes more sense than GMs just handing it out when they remember and feel like it.

I'm going to play my first ever D&D campaign this Sunday, things I should I know about etiquette

Don't be the autismo.

When I make a character, can I reflavor spells to fit my character? But they'd keep the same effects, just different sounds or shapes or colors or whatever.

Other than basic social skills

Try to let everyone take a turn in the spotlight

Start thinking about what you might want to do on your turn before its actually your turn

Fun is more important than rules

>theangrygm

Most DMs have no problem with fluff, just try not to go overboard or you'll quickly look like a special snowflake and irritate everyone by constantly having to explain how fucking special you are


Yeah I should kill myself tbqh
It is an interesting tweak tho

all of these, If you think you're talking too much or not enough you probably are

The DM is always right, even when he's wrong. Nobody wants to watch the rules-lawyer argue with him.

Know your class's spells and abilities, don't hold the game up looking through the books to see what your character can do.

If the group orders food, offer to pitch in for paying.

If you ever have to miss a session, try to let everyone as soon in advance as possible.

If it's your first time playing with a group, try to avoid the more anime'ish character ideas, unless it's that kind of game. Don't be the creepy guy who need to need play a little girl character, or a busty seductress, or the angsty kitsune ninja. No matter how convinced you are that you can do it well, just wait until you're more established in the group.

Come up with a good reason why your character wants to be part of the group, give them a personal goal the DM can drop plothooks around throughout the game. But do NOT make a special-snowflake who hogs all the spotlight.

Don't bring a girlfriend or anyone who just wants to watch. Tell her you need a guy's night. Seriously, no good will come of having someone there who's not really interested in the game. Even worse if they're pretending to be interested.

Don't split the group if you can help it, remember the DM isn't your enemy, just the storyteller, don't kill random people for no reason.

Don't you know how the spell points system works?

You only can cast one 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell a day, you literally can't spam them.

I don't really get the problem everyone has with theangrydm. I've only read a couple of things, but they have good ideas, though they ramble on a lot.

That sounds like a pretty neat idea though, especially since it encourages people to think about their flaws and if you don't.. Well, you don't get shit. And it's perfectly fine if people decide to not play with it too, because it's not altering any of the base stuff.

playing a Long Death monk how I make him at least neutral good in his thought process?

I haven't heard of him/it before, being new to 5e and this general. What is everyone's issue?

Raven Queen

He's a scholar studying death and using his knowledge medicine on the people that can still be saved for a compenastion of course.

Otherwise he will take on missions from his monastery to hunt down necromancers and similar beings with no respect to the sancticy of life and death.

>A good fix would be to give each elemental sorcerer an 'evolving spell list' instead. Say, you start with something like 'produce flame', then 'burning hands', then 'scorching ray', then 'fireball', and so on. You get them all for free.
An acid dragon gets similar abilities except acid.

They'd need to add quite a few new spells and make them not shit yet mechanically distinct. WotC can't do it.

Generally you want to vaguely fit into the party in terms of metagaming.

I've been in groups where people would play fighters with almost no dexterity+strength and thus I know they'd suck at combat, but the DM doesn't intend to make the game very fightey or harsh with regards to fights.

Then, some groups might be the sort that talks combat tactics, their abilities or their class and such a lot. In such cases, you might want to avoid making something sucky if you don't want everyone else stealing your spotlight.


If everybody's a first timer or at least you're not alone being new, just do whatever the fuck though. It'll work out. Don't even worry about all the stuff I just said.

Last time I saw them was about the 'fighting spirit' stuff and while they did ramble on, there was plenty of good points I'd been already thinking about before he said it. Stuff like problems with going from 'perfectly fine' to 'unconscious', players not being able to act and having to beg the healer while they're making death saves, 1 HP heal spam, that sort of thing.

It doesn't even have to be awfully complex. The idea is that they simply have a 'I CAN SPEW FIRE' ability that can be molded into different shapes somewhat, like a fireball-ish shape or a line shape. The problem is doing that smoothly without taking up too much page space. Say, maybe there'd be a simple formula, 'if you want to increase the size, it costs one higher spell slot. Increase damage, one higher spell slot. Make it bonus action, it's harder again. Want to just spew weak fire at point blank? That's a cantrip.'

You could look at how 4e did it
>everyone hates 4e for being MMO edition
>now people suggest adding MMO mechanics to 5e to make it better
Man, fuck d&d fans

This is pretty much divorcing sorcerers from the spells system and making them more akin to four element monks or warlocks. I'm all for it, but I expect severe autistic shrieking at the idea of changing a traditionally full caster class like taht

>rolling for stats
Maybe play the game fucking properly so the monk isn't a 'look at me I output mad damage yo' and actually does their roll of 'I'm going to help the team by stunning and delaying monsters, knockning them prone and moving them in position for the wizard to fireball them' and shit.

Eh, MMO mechanics are shit

What you really want is not a compulsory 'you MUST flip this switch!' but more of a 'Okay, there are several ways to approach this problem, but we'll leave you to figure one or two of them out so you can feel really smart about it. Or, heck, even think of something new. And if you don't, well, the fight is just gonna be really hard.'

>Nystul's Magic Aura is probably appropriate, too.
>>anonymous
Nondetection can have that effect too.

I keep hearing monk is shit from /5eg/ yet I also keep hearing stories like this. In my own games monks have outshone everyone in two different parties. Is monk just more prone to becoming completely OP with good stats?

I'm kinda thinking pass without trace is a thing to throw in there, too.

But that's kinda powerful and it's starting to get a bit far into 'anonymous' rather than 'shitposter' territory.

Monk lacks fun utility for the most part (kinda on barbarian tier of out of combat utility) and often becomes a one-trick-pony in that their damage output might not be as good as some of the best martials but they can stun things over and over.

They also become absolutely fucking useless with bad stats, and if you don't focus on upping their stats they can often end up being incredibly disappointing to players. Thus, they're hard to play right.
However, if you play them right or have somebody roll really good stats, they can be good, or even kind of overpowered if you give them really good stats.

Where in my post did I ever say I hated 4e?

Even people who play 5e don't know what's shit and what isn't anymore.

this not buying points for the stats you need

this

ohh I like this.

Hey the guy that come up with the original idea here.
It was as a start to new spell casting system where at each level arcane casters will get to choose new forms for their spells instead of new spells. You still needed to have the previous form though.
It also gave new things for the sorcerers meta magic to do.
Like having Minor Invisibility cantrip(make invisible small object for round or minute) and Invisibily but no greater one because you choose to upgrade different spell. So you spend some spell points to temp upgrade regular invs to greater.
Limited spell selection with greater flexibility

To explain further
>Monk's AC relies on TWO stats, and can actually end up fucking negative if those stats are negative. They can't equip armour to negate bad stats.
>Monk makes a lot of attacks. Upping dex greatly increases power, while low dex means much less power. You essentially multiply the dex modifier by number of hits, which is 2, 3 or 4 with flurry of blows and extra attack at 5 and bonus attack considered.
>Monks are fucking squishy, so they need more con. 1d8 hitdice, often bad AC and engage in melee. If your con stat isn't good.. Well, have fun dying, I guess, unless you can avoid attacks well with mobile or something
>Heck even deflect missiles uses dex and you need to roll high on that to reaction throw missiles back
>Wis is used by a spammable stun of great importance, so upping that means more stuns.
>Wis, con and dex, the stats monk wants most, all happen to be the best stats in the game. Increasing these increases important skills, saves, initiative, etc.
Also monks kinda don't get extra damage or anything at later levels, like barbarian. Just more ki to stun with.

Stunning is incredible utility though. And all monks get rogue-esque bonus actions, shadow monks get teleports/invisibilty, open hand get battlemaster-esque effects on every attack completely for free, sun soul shoots goddamn hadukens, etc

>This is pretty much divorcing sorcerers from the spells system and making them more akin to four element monks or warlocks. I'm all for it, but I expect severe autistic shrieking at the idea of changing a traditionally full caster class like taht
This basically already happened in the playtest and that's why we have the wizard clone again.
>Can't make it unique or "grogs" complain
>Can't leave it out of PHB and design it later.
>This is what we get.

Tried this one, ended up disastrous, my players HATED it..

I don't get theses threads sometime, just a couple of thread ago /5eg/ jump down someone's throat who pointed out classes aren't "100% totally balanced" using the Sorcerer as an example.

Monk has one less ASI compared to other martials like rogue (monk only has 5, rogue gets 6 and fighter has 7).
They are resource based for their 4th attack and can't even nova with their resource unless they get a high level feature like Open hand monk.
They don't get a fighting style that can support them.
They don't get feats that can boost their unarmed damage like sharpshooter does.

Then there's the part they are MAD, have a 1d8 Hp die and are simply awfull for multiclassing.

>But that's kinda powerful and it's starting to get a bit far into 'anonymous' rather than 'shitposter' territory.
Yeah, I thought shitposters were more of the namefag type and less anonymous too, just describing an option for that effect.

Ah well
Do share experience. Was it to complicated? Too little spell points? Too little or too much spell upgardes? Was the spell selection enough?

>Also monks kinda don't get extra damage or anything at later levels, like barbarian. Just more ki to stun with.
Does barb though? He gets a bunch of crit bonuses which are entirely dependent on a lucky roll, and rage damage bonuses but he's still making less attacks than a monk, who is probably rolling comparable damage die by high level

They get the normal amount of ASI. They have interesting abilities. They don't need feats.

They should have some nova/generic Ki dump. 4elements does get that, but it's a little too muddled.

Martial Arts is their fighting style. It's TWF.

They don't need generic feats. Every martial could use power attack. Should be a default option, like shoving.

Normal amount of MAD, D10 hit dice would have been perfectly appropriate, and I don't give a shit about multiclassing, but it's a thematic nod to previous editions.

Barbarian has more ASI, a better Hp die and gets both a fighting style and feats that can go with it.
Not to mention the Barb has a superior unarmoured feature.

What's the most overpowered solo class at any given level?

At least Barb has a good capstone.

>Additionally, you have unlimited Ki since you can't nova anyway.
Why not?

Barbs have the same amount of ASIs until the very last level capstone and they don't get fighting styles.
No argument about hp though. barbs are made to soak damage and little else

Eh, some people are faggots.

Sorcerers are actually pretty okay, but they're just not as good as a wizard and since they offer little different to the wizard it means a wizard can easily overshadow a sorcerer, whereas a wizard might not overshadow a barbarian even if the wizard is generally more useful.

Unless you're certain shitposters who proxy all day to get b& on /b/ repeatedly.

Barbarian only gets brutal critical and +1 or +2 rage damage. Compared to fighter who gets an entire extra attack or paladin who gets IDS and more spell slots to smite with, it's kinda pitiful. Or rogue, who keeps getting higher sneak attack dice.

If you multiclass out of barbarian or monk into rogue, you can keep the damage going using sneak attack progression.

Just letting them use up ki up to equal to their wis mod on flurry of blows (basically firing off 8 attacks in one turn for 5 ki ) and a d10 Hp die would be enough.

>comparable damage
Well let's do a damage comparison
>barbarian, in a rage, greatsword, Great weapon master feat, level 20, max str
If a single attack hits, that's 2d6+10+7+4, 4d6+20+14+8 if both hit, another attack if barbarian crits/kills
>Monk, Flurry of Blows, max dex, 20th level
1d10+5 on a hit, 4d10+20 if all hit.
Unfortunately the Monk falls off in damage against people with GWM, even the barbarian
BUT, there are Kensai monks that can get their hands on greatswords without any downsides so they can get GWM so they can get better damage than Barbarians in the end because they can get GWM along with free unarmed attacks.

assuming GWM, of course, but I was just talking about the class itself. Feats are "optional" after all

>comparing at level 20
>not going GWM+PAM+Sentinel barbarian
>not factoring in brutal critical which is roughly a +1 to damage once you have all of them

And also kensei monk will do less damage than a properly built barbarian as per above since the barbarian also has bonus attacks as well as rage damage, and even if the monk copies the build despite needing to up their wisdom to have decent survivability and other stuff instead of feats, the monk won't beat the barbarian due to rage damage again.

Weapon specialization feats are thematically inappropriate for barbarians. I get it, because min/maxing, but they don't even have fighting styles. Totem barbs are propped up by feats, otherwise level 20 bear totems get 2d12+8+14 (35) average damage per turn.

>"optional"
I know there's the "quotation marks" there, but I'd like to take this wonderful opportunity to ram down everyone's throats again:

Feats are not optional unless you're a massive faggot or all your players are absolute fucking idiots.

Hey, the book said it itself. Are you calling WotC massive faggots?

>WotC are massive faggots
Trips of truth there.

Pretty much.

If you remove feats, you remove any point to playing strength-based characters.

Yes, even barbarian - a dex barbarian becomes better. if it's not level 20.