Nazi Europe - what would it look like?

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On the contrary that's irrelevant. It was just context for the description of a hands off occupier.

Romania/Hungary/Bulgaria were indeed Axis countries. I should've mentioned that.

What I'm really interested in is the fate of the "lebensraum" countries, like Poland and Russia. They would've hardly been a paradise.

A space race, with Von Braun working on Germany's rockets, sounds very likely.

Nazi Germany winning the space race is probable, since they had both genius scientists and a Soviet-like attitude to human life (no problem using human guinea-pigs in those capsules until they get it right.)

Poles were actually the only population that never collaborate with Nazis - they fought both the Nazis and Bolsheviks, and were crushed really badly. Poland was probably the main tragedy in WW2.

(The Nazis didn't install a puppet government in Poland either, IIRC. They renamed it "Government-General" and put it under German rule, banning the name "Poland".)

Nationalists and dissidents are disposed of.
The rest becomes second rate citizens. They can hold menial jobs, they have access to education up to high school / trade school, but no college. They can't own property beyond personal necessity (say one room per person, children count as half, plus a limited form of savings). They can't participate in cultural events and general high-society stuff (or only on a special permit as a retinue of a proper citizen), they can't travel abroad.

However, they are offered a way to gain full citizenship - exemplar service at assigned job, no criminal activity, fluent in German language, knowledgeable about German history, public subscription to the ideology, etc. And obviously in good physical shape. Because after all Aryan bloodline goes all over the Europe historically and can be present in some diluted form in anyone. All they need is to foster it to strength it is worthy of.

And people will want to take this path, partially out of pride indoctrinated into them, partially because it secures them (and their children) better standing in life.

Mixed couples are discouraged and child born form such union becomes automatically second class, plus the offending first class parent might become disowned by their own family. Loss of citizenship might also become form of criminal punishment.

>They would've hardly been a paradise.
They would've been a paradise. But without any Poles or Russians.

Gypsies get gassed. All of them. No ifs, no buts, no exceptions.

White.

>I'm gonna go with the most "realistic" Nazi-victory scenario - they beat the USSR on the ostfront, Stalin gets fragged and Soviets sue for peace, the Western Allies never invade, eventually a separate peace with the West. The Nazi frontlines go up to Astrakhan-Arkhangelsk but not much further; the remaining USSR still exists behind that line. America and UK are untouched by the war.

The best option for Germany is NOT to break the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. The idea of an invasion of the Soviet Union was the most stupid idea of Hitler together with the Holocaust.
Germany annexes Austria and Czechoslovakia becomes protectorate. Germany and SU invade Poland. Britain and France declare war on Germany. Germany roflstomps France. From now you have several alternative options.

War with the SU? Okay, stupid but historical accurate. Necessary option here for German victory is a truce/stalemate on the eastern front. Basically ending in a demilitarized zone after end of the war similar to how North and South Korea's borders looks today. Better option: No war, the entire eastern front debacle is never a thing, German resources can be used entirely on the western front. Germany and SU stay grudging "friends" after the war.

War with the UK? Two options: Either once again truce as the UK realizes that with the entire focus of the German war machine on the west and France's fall the outlook ain't so peachy anymore. Meanwhile Italy would be gnawing at British colonies in Africa. Alternative: Operation Sealion/Reverse D-Day. Germany pulls of the invasion of UK, City of London becomes German territory, Wales and Scotland become protectorates, N.Ireland is retaken by Ireland.

>On March 21st, 1943, Ribbentrop sent a memorandum to Hitler in which he stated the need for a "European Confederation." The composition of this new political entity was supposed to include Germany, Italy, France, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Serbia, Greece and Spain. A memorandum of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Germany from September 9th, 1943 reveals the structure of the future European Confederation. This proposed structure does not differ significantly at all from the current structure of the EU. Economic issues were to be governed by the European Economic Council, and it was suggested that a European Monetary Union and European Central Bank be created.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Confederation

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>Would they have gone with "KILL EM ALL",
>Soviet Union suffered 10 million casualties alone just for war crimes against civilians (including POW casualtied).
It's like you don't even realize what the entire point of declaring war against Russia was...

>Alternative: Operation Sealion/Reverse D-Day. Germany pulls of the invasion of UK

THEN it invades the USSR 5 years later. That might work, as long as Stalin's paranoia is strong enough that he keeps killing off his best officers and torturing the Red Army into incompetency.

>8 lane uncontrolled square round-abouts.
Fucking evil heathens!

Interesting ideas, all of them sound realistic.

German cultural imperialism would've been a thing, akin to the Brits banning the Irish language. I can definitely see Hitler banning the Russian language, but since the German settlers would be hugely outnumbered by the natives (even after WW2 mega-deaths), such a ban wouldn't work that well. A black-market business of Germanic settlers learning Russian would probably be a thing.

There was a Swedish alt-history book set in Nazi Europe a while ago. It takes place in the 60s, with Speer as the Fuhrer. I remember that the protagonist ends up in "Ostland" and notices that old Hitlerian apartheid-laws on Slavs are being a bit relaxed - they're allowed to get an education, participate in sports events, etc etc.

(If I remember right, Hitler didn't want Eastern Europeans to be allowed literacy at all. No idea where this was from, though. "Hitler's Table Talk"?)

A paradise for the German settlers? Describe moar, plz.

Lol, yes.

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>CN Tower in the far-right background
>I knew the fucking Leafs were involved

>CN Tower in the far-right background
Try again...

Right. Hitler's own ideas for Poles and Russians were definitely in the "KILL EM ALL" direction, but that wasn't always the policy by the German Army on the ground. It seems that the Nazis vacillated between several policies and kept options open.

Interesting. Also note that this proto-EU deliberately excludes Poland and all East Slavic countries...

The upcoming Walkure RPG has this kind of alt-history world, but more scifi and less realistic.

Which year are you setting your game?

Stupid idea, but pic still thematically appropriate.

OP read "Fatherland". It is basically this exact scenario.

In it, Germany defeats Russia but can't obliterate it. Russian remnants continue an insurgency and the Urals / most of Asian Russia is a hellish no man's land.

Eastern Europe, or at least Poland, seem to be ruthlessly exploited. By the 60s Pole's are emigrating to Germany as menial, second class workers.

Been a long time since I read the book though. Check it out

The 60s.

It's a good decade to set it in - space race, "counterculture" kids, first post-Nazi generation, oldies like Speer and Heydrich are still around, etc etc.

(I imagine the 60s culture in Nazi Germany would be treated much the same way Franco's Spain did in real life - hippies getting hanged up by their hair, etc etc.)

That would be a terrible idea, actually. The USSR was going through a massive military expansion that would see it as being the world most well equipped army by 1944 or so. Attacking them by that point would be suicidal.

Check out "In the Presence of Mine Enemies" by Harry Turtledove. Alt history from the viewpoint of a hidden Jewish family about half a century after the Nazis won.

My biggest question in this scenario is always: How does Germany hold on to the territories? The german and austrian heartlands had it decent, but nearly every single other territory had not discountable resistance movements. Even regions that were sympathtic to them got alienated by how dickish many germans were to them. Germany simply never had the manpower to hold on to most territories.

>Walkure RPG

therpgsite.com/showthread.php?33901-Walkure

Has some cool images.

>the world most well equipped army by 1944

Really? Then why did they rely so much on lend-lease aid from the US IRL?

Genocide.

Apparently a quote from Speer:

> Along with the new towns, gigantic SS cemeteries were to be established, looking like the tumuli of the ancient world, but rising to heights of a hundred meters and more. . . .in addition to Himmler’s fortress villages, many new towns were to spring up in the vicinity of the existing Russian towns. As models, Hitler would mention Regensburg, Augsburg, Weimar, or Heidelberg. These towns were to be as different as possible from each other. It was perfectly all right for us to copy familiar buildings, so that even in Russia a feeling for the fatherland could develop. In antiquity, Hitler would often say, no attempt was
made to develop new forms of villas or temples for, say, the Greco-Roman colonial cities in Sicily. He also wanted to use a great deal of color. He recalled the ‘Theresian yellow’ to be found in any territory where the influence of the Habsburg monarchy extended, even deep into the wilds of Montenegro. Our future buildings in the Ukraine, in White Russia, and as far as the Urals must always be identifiable as products of German culture.

Have you played Wolfenstein: The New Order?

You should.

Love that Gibraltar Bridge.

youtube.com/watch?v=Pht8Bsq8Cno

>old Hitlerian apartheid-laws on Slavs are being a bit relaxed - they're allowed to get an education, participate in sports events, etc etc.
Well, I would say get a bit old school on this - there's is low culture and high culture. Some sports (soccer and most other team sports, cinema, circus, street performance) are low culture - permitted to both perform and attend by anyone (though monitored if they're not secretly agitating against the state). High culture (fencing, classic Greek athletics, theater, opera) are high culture.
Low culture is for masses and by masses - bread and games. High culture is more about the prowess of the individual.

>(If I remember right, Hitler didn't want Eastern Europeans to be allowed literacy at all. No idea where this was from, though. "Hitler's Table Talk"?)
I fail to see how this would be a good idea - restricting them from higher education makes sense but the absence of basic literacy seriously limits the use of a workfoce. You'd still want those people as assembly line workers and farmers for the new Reich, I imagine. They can do that without knowing how to read but they would be quite inflexible in adopting any new technology or methodology when everything needs to be shown by example as in ye olde days of craft apprenticeship.
I don't think the threat of samizdat anti-state literature is that serious to justify this. You can easily overwhelm it by your own propaganda if you control the main media.

slavs make up the working class, while germans are their overseers. the law is very strict and it's easy to end up in a death camp, but generally only if you break it.
there is probably forced castration / sterilization for people with defects as part of a mandatory eugenics program
there are definitely a lot of resistance movements and the whole thing would collapse pretty soon honestly, hard to manage a state in which 90% of people absolutely fucking hate the ruling 10% with good reason

>The idea of an invasion of the Soviet Union was the most stupid idea of Hitler together with the Holocaust.
Honestly one of the best options is also having Hitler die early. His successor would be infinitely more suited if they just don't meddle with the military. Hitler was a great demagogue (with the help of others) but he definitely was no military strategist or logistics expert.
For example the whole development of the Me 262 jet fighters was set back by months and months because Adolf himself wanted them to be fighter-bombers...

>90% of people absolutely fucking hate the ruling 10% with good reason
Well apartheid South Africa chugged along quite nicely for 40 years.

Maybe this guy's videos can be inspirational.

youtube.com/watch?v=bSCuE7jmFa4

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>N.Ireland is retaken by Ireland.
Lost it, well played.

It's a really awful idea, but apparently it was Hitler's intention. Here's from "Table Talk":

> We must take care to prevent a military power from ever again establishing itself on this side of the Urals, for our neighbours to the West would always be allied with our neighbours to the East. That's how the French once made common cause with
the Turks, and now the English are behaving in the same fashion with the Soviets. When I say, on this side o fthe Urals, I mean a line running two or three hundred kilometres east of the Urals.

> It should be possible for us to control this region to the East with two hundred thousand men plus a cadre of good colonial administrators. Let's leam from the English, who, with two hundred and fifty thousand men in all, including fifty thousand soldiers, govern four hundred million Indians. This space in Russia must always be dominated by Germans.

> Nothing would be a worse mistake on our part than to seek to educate the masses there. It is to our interest that the people should know just enough to recognise the signs on the roads.

Apartheid was orders of magnitude milder compared to what the nazis wanted.

Because Hitler hit them in June of '41, not too long after one of Stalin's purges.
Lend Lease was enormously important, but if there hadn't been that pressure of invading Nazis then they might not have needed it so much - they have 3 years to do what they did IRL. Lend Lease would still help though

Then there's things like when they moved a shit-ton of factories beyond the Urals in 41 after it became clear the Germans were coming, which saved them and meant they could keep working once they were put back together, but was still a huge undertaking that lost them a few months production.

Not breaking the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, and probably not trying Sealion either - the Kreigsmarine really wasn't up to the job.
That gives the Nazis and their allies all of central Europe, and the threat of the USSR means they can still stockpile wunderwaffen in a mini cold war

What if Operation Vegetarian?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Vegetarian

Yes, true, but if we're talking about "soft genocide" as an option in the Ostreich, then it's a model. The Afrikaners were starting to herd the various black tribes into Swaziland et al. as a prelude to total racial separation.

>It should be possible for us to control this region to the East with two hundred thousand men

Dohohoho! laughing_nkvd.jpg

Russians aren't Hindus, dude.

>just enough to recognise the signs on the roads.
Still better than Saudi Arabia.

>This proposed structure does not differ significantly at all from the current structure of the EU. Economic issues were to be governed by the European Economic Council, and it was suggested that a European Monetary Union and European Central Bank be created.
As if we didn't have enough proof that the EU is evil.

>[on German colonization of Russia] "As for the two or three million men whom we need to accomplish this task, we will find them more quickly than we think. They will come from Germany, Scandinavia, the western countries, and America. I shall no longer be here to see all that, but in twenty years the Ukraine will already be a home for twenty million inhabitants besides the natives." —Adolf Hitler

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Germanic_Reich

Because a lot soviet industrial base was overrun during the opening of Barbarossa, while soviet build up was just starting and Stalin was going out of his way to fuck up the red army. In a scenario where Hitler waits 5 years to started the war with the USSR, it would something like 30000 t-34 alone, nevermind everything else.

If Norway is anything to go by: Once rationing ends, assimilation starts.

As for nations where actual population centers got bombed? Just takes longer.

>the Kreigsmarine really wasn't up to the job.
I'd really love to see how the German navy would go about aircraft carriers and naval jets if they had had the time.

Hitler apparently thought Russians were slavish Hindus. Not saying they are...

>It's like you don't even realize what the entire point of declaring war against Russia was...

The destruction of Jewish Bolshevism. Literally nothing else.

Here's another weird nugget:

>There was preparation for the construction of a new German metropolis of 300.000 inhabitants called Nordstern ("North Star") next to the Norwegian city of Trondheim. It would be accompanied by a new naval base that was intended to be the Germany's largest.[59][70] This city was to be connected to Germany proper by an Autobahn across the Little and Great Belts.

Hitler actually spells it out in Mein Kampf: "the destruction of Jewish rule in Russia will also be the end of Russia as a country."

It's this setting in an alt-history Nazi Europe that interests me.

the only reason the brits controlled India was because of the large as fuck indian bureaucracy they left to manage the country and large scale non interference in local affairs.

Fucking hell, the brits were so terrified of the indian army revolting that they only started training Indian COs after ww1 showed that british officers were not cutting it.

A myth, but it could happen in your fantasy world:

>Himmler's personal masseur Felix Kersten claimed that the former even contemplated resettling the entire Dutch population, some 8 million people in total at the time, to agricultural lands in the Vistula and Bug River valleys of German-occupied Poland as the most efficient way of facilitating their immediate Germanization.[60] In this eventuality he is alleged to have further hoped to establish an SS Province of Holland in vacated Dutch territory, and to distribute all confiscated Dutch property and real estate among reliable SS-men.[61] However this claim was shown to be a myth by Loe de Jong in his book Two Legends of the Third Reich.[62]

hey that's a pretty good idea if you want to forcibly germanize places.

Its not weird.
Basically if you manage to Peace Russia, at some point, you might want to fight Russia again.
And one of the better options is naval invasion, especially as artillery gets good enough to bombard inland from sea.

Naziland could also be a place of sympathy to Finland, for reasons.

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look how chile or franco spain looked, this but more german with more beer and more work

1952. One of the first novels about genetic engineering and also the first about furries.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Order_(Nazism)#Conquest_of_Lebensraum_in_Eastern_Europe

These guys had some caaaraaazy ideas for eastern europe:

>The objective was to undermine the national cohesion of the Russians by promoting regional identification; a Russian from the Gorki Generalkommissariat was to feel that he was different from a Russian in the Tula Generalkommissariat.[37] Also, a source of discussion in the Nazi circles was the replacement of the Cyrillic letters with the German alphabet.[38] In July 1944, Himmler ordered Ernst Kaltenbrunner, the head of the RSHA, to begin the exporting of the faith of the Jehovah's Witnesses to the occupied east.[39] Himmler considered the Jehovah's Witnesses of being frugal, hard-working, honest and fanatic in their pacifism, and that these traits were extremely desirable for the suppressed nations in the east

Yes, fucking JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES SPREADING THE REICH. You can't make this stuff up.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heim_ins_Reich

>In the Greater Poland (Wielkopolska) region (joined together with the Łódź district and dubbed "Wartheland" by the Germans), the Nazis' goal was the complete "Germanization", or political, cultural, social, and economic assimilation of the territory into the German Reich. In pursuit of this goal, the installed bureaucracy renamed streets and cities and seized tens of thousands of Polish enterprises, from large industrial firms to small shops, without payment to the owners. This area incorporated 350,000 such "ethnic Germans" and 1.7 million Poles deemed Germanizable, including between one and two hundred thousand children who had been taken from their parents (plus about 400,000 German settlers from the "Old Reich").[19] They were housed in farms left vacant by expulsion of the local Poles.[20] Militant party members were sent to teach them to be "true Germans".[21] Hitler Youth and League of German Girls sent young people for "Eastern Service", which entailed (particularly for the girls) assisting in Germanization efforts.[22] They were harassed by Polish partisans (Armia Krajowa) during the war.

If you have this, the Anglo-Allies are still essentially unbeaten and will still achieve air dominance. While odds of attacking onto the European mainland are low, attacks from the air are likely to be unceasing.

Then, come 1945, you have the nuclear bomb. Germany is likely ruling over a baking irradiated cinder, depending on how long the bombardment lasts.

> The idea of an invasion of the Soviet Union was the most stupid idea of Hitler together with the Holocaust.

Stop falling for memes and watch this:
youtube.com/watch?v=VD11igF7seE

Yes it is tl;dw, but you will get a bonus evasion to memes from sitting through it.

Other ideas included promoting consumerism and small families by "make them think on how many cool trips they can go if they don´t have children" :>)

Germany actually getting to use jets for more than a couple of months would be pretty neat.

Though the Kreigsmarine would likely remain the least supported service, even if they got their carriers - hell, even if they got carriers with jets, when you remember that Whittle and Ohain both had working jets before the war was over

He said there's a pair of peaces - Nazi's get central Europe, but they're not at war with the US, UK or USSR (though they've taken a lot of the latter) - the Anglo-Allies, and the Germans to a lesser extent (given the way their program was), may well both be working on nuclear weapons, but they're not actually at war

Give the basic breakdown.

>"make them think on how many cool trips they can go if they don´t have children" :>)

Are you my wife?

Same here. I don't have time to watch 1.5 hours of docudrama. Can't you give us 6 bullets points of the central thesis?

He said there is no invasion of Europe (1943-44) and an "eventual" peace. That's plenty of time to drop a-bombs, especially since Germany has little ability to put pressure on the west.

Hmm... I feel like any peace with the western allies, leaving france still occupied would have been impossible.
Further, Hitler and the germans respected France as culturally and ethnically distinct from the german.
A 'gracious' peace with the western allies immediately after the fall of Paris, with the germans de-occupying most of France, and perhaps Holland, allowing them to throw all of their forces and armour at Operation Barbarossa in the initial shock of operations, when they actually had a chance of KO'ing the soviets seems the most likely way that they might have come out on top.

My guess is that it's just saying that war with Russia was inevitable for both political and material reasons, so it was better for Hitler to try to strike first.

I really just want to see a world do the Grasshopper Lies Heavy scenario. An alternate history where the Nazi's lost but things still turned out totally different.

that would also be pretty cool to do - maybe "isolationist USA stays out of the war, Soviet Union overruns everything and plants hammer and sickle on Eiffel Tower".

The invasion of the USSR would have been an entirely different story if not for Mussolini going YOLO into Greece and needing Hitler to delay Barbarossa for 6 months or so to save his dumb ass

Or something like this:
The US never opens up Pearl Harbor for the Japanese bombing as an excuse to get into the war, and the Japanese army doesn't run out of resources, doesn't lose morale and doesn't get disbanded at the end of the war.
A stronger Japan means a weaker Russia and China, and at the end of the war, the Nazis still lose but have put a deep dent in the Soviet Union and Britain. While political opposition to Japan is an obstacle, the Soviet proves itself unable to maintain its eastern territories, and Siberian territories crumble away to Japan at the promise of a stable economy and mining, logging and industrial jobs.
Britain staggers on for a decade with ruined historical buildings, rationing, civil unrest and its infrastructure in tatters - and in the end needs to take a huge loan from still-fascist (but peaceful) Greater Japan, as well as take in a large amount of Japanese workers to administrate the rebuilding.
That way, you can get the Nazi thrill without swastikas and Hitler, and the "Japan will take over the world" story without as much panicked racism.

The atlantropa project sounds cool as fuck, say what you will about the nazis but they were ambitious.

>N.Ireland is retaken by Ireland

This warms my heart.

KILL THEM ALL, long-term version.
-Restrict subhuman families to have two children only. All that serve germans live better than those who don't, because these die. The projections assure citizens that non-germans will extinguish at the rate Germania expands its numbers. The world slowly gets used to it as it isn't dramatic enough to western media and social attention span.

-A network of tiefplatzes for this workforce are implemented to restore war damage and produce infrastructure, quarries, roads, factories, V-10 launch bays etc. Some selected people are killed just as before, but most are put to work like this.

-All non-german dead are processed: soap to clean inferiors, fertilizer to feed the future, canned food for inferiors, non-germanic servitude extends unto death. Germania's Golden Reich* will be born from their ashes.

*color symbolism: blond hair, fields of wheat, prosperity, previous reiches defined as iron, bronze, silver.

Wildlifes Reserves and ocasional hunting grounds are created in the whole of Europe, future homes for auroches, european lions and other reborn species. Guess what is used as bait?

Argentina and the brazilian south fuse into the Silberland Protectorate. South America itself is the playground for a Great Game between USA and the Reich.

German cultural imperialism is exported just as american culture is today. Some german city becomes a sort of Hollywood where things are looser, and a contraculture develops.

Fuck off back to the potato farm paddy

Well the Generalplan Ost (whether or not you believe it's real) foresaw the deccimation of the slavs to 15% of their current population. So there would still be russians and poles etc around, just a lot fewer.

Nazi victory is a boring overused meme trope. If you want real alt history, go for perfect timeline Germany, starting in 1888.

>using humans as bait.
wow, how edgy.
Only most animals will lose their instinctive fear of humans and the largely sparsely populated communities of germans will live in fear of man eaters.

Oh what could have been

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Oh man, would England side with Germany during the First World War?

>TFW when no Totenkopf Princess-bae

If history didn't go the way it has, we wouldn't be able to read up on Willy waggling shenanigans. Seriously, Germany history from 1871 and 1914 is like a fucking sitcom.

Maybe they should make it a sitcom called "Nobody listen's to Bismarck". The running gag is that Bismarck is always right but, you guessed it, nobody listens to him.

Man, was he ever right about the welfare state!

If Friedrich hadn't died?
Things would have stacked up pretty differently, seeing as he seemed to get on with Bismark, and was a bit of a Teaboo, where Wilhelm was an Anglophobe

>Operation Sealion
>Not complete fantasy
Germany had no real surface fleet, them invading Mars was more likely than them inading England.