Do you like breaking Arcana by raising it as high as possible and then taking wizard cantrips, Arcane Mutterings, Binding Mastery, Sorcerous Vision, etc.?
1. To strongly consider giving out at least one free "tax feat," like Expertise and pre-errata Melee Training. 2. To use Monster Manual 3/Monster Vault/Monster Vault: Nentir Vale/Dark Sun Creature Catalog math. Avoid or manually update anything with Monster Manual 1 or 2 math. 3. That skill challenges have always been scene-framing devices for the GM, that players should never be overtly told that they are in a skill challenge, and that the Rules Compendium has the most up-to-date skill DCs and skill challenge rules.
If you would like assistance with character optimization, remember to tell us what the what the rest of the players are playing, what books are allowed, your starting level, the highest level you expect to reach, what free feats you receive, if anything is banned, whether or not themes are allowed, your starting equipment, and how much you dislike item-dependent builds. If you wish to talk about settings, 4e's settings are Points of Light (the planes and the natural world's past empires are heavily detailed in various sourcebooks and magazines), 4e Forgotten Realms, 4e Eberron, 4e Dark Sun, and whatever setting you would like to bring into 4e.
Trying to sort out ideas for a Warden for a Dark Sun game. Party already has a Fighter, Ardent, Psion, Monk, and Warlock, so I figured I'd go for something else to help defend.
I was thinking about multiclassing Shaman and picking up the two feats to give the Spirit Companion and the 1/encounter heal to help our leader out as well.
Main thing I'm having trouble deciding on is if I want to go Con for more tankiness, or Wisdom for some of the healing effects.
We aren't using themes, and we are going to use inherent bonuses. I'd also prefer to avoid digging through a lot of dragon magazine articles for things to use.
Ayden Clark
I would recommend another leader rather than another defender. Even in a six-PC party, two defenders can sometimes conflict with one another, short of builds tailored to capitalize on this. Leaders, meanwhile, are force multipliers that thrive in large parties; this is especially the case for a warlord, which would work wonders in such a party.
If you still wish to be a warden regardless, I would suggest Wisdom. While it does not have the sheer striking power of a Dwarven Weapon Training + Crippling Crush build, Wisdom will give you considerably higher defenses, which is important against Monster Manual 3 math. Wisdom is also far more useful out of combat than Constitution, especially in Dark Sun, which makes extensive use of the foraging rules.
What is your character's starting level?
Brayden Johnson
I'm joining an existing party, though they're only level 2 right now.
I was considering a Shaman as another possibility.
Joshua Collins
>Do you like breaking Arcana by raising it as high as possible
Stacking a myriad of modifiers from all kinds of magic items and feats was definitely the worst part of 4e. And "magic can do everything" is just bad in D&D in general.
Maybe a Sentinel || Warden hybrid?
>I'd also prefer to avoid digging through a lot of dragon magazine articles for things to use.
Do you have/use the builder? If not, I'd recommend it.
Oliver Lewis
My group used to have the builder, but it's been a while since we've played. There's also quite a few newer players in the group, so I'd prefer to stick to the more standard books in order to not outpace them with a ton of extra options or anything.
I hadn't really considered Sentinel, as I haven't played much with essentials. Would it combo well with a Warden, or be a better option as a pure class?
Nathaniel Bailey
A shaman could be a good leader, though it does not benefit from large parties as much as an action point-supercharging, initiative-boosting warlord does.
Still, a Wisdom/Intelligence-based Elemental Spirit shaman could be a good choice. The party's warlock will love Spirit Infusion, and Spirit of the Healing Flood can turn the tide of a battle.
What are the synergies associated with a druid (sentinel)|warden? This is a new hybrid build proposal to me.
I have suggested a hybrid cleric|druid (sentinel) as a rock-solid leader/controller for the heroic tier in a previous thread ( archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/50199774/#50243124 ), but it will probably be banned in an Athasian game, short of a lenient DM and the sidebar in page 9 of the Dark Sun Campaign Setting.
Luke Gonzalez
>I hadn't really considered Sentinel, as I haven't played much with essentials. Would it combo well with a Warden, or be a better option as a pure class?
The druid (sentinel) is undoubtedly far better as a hybrid than as a pure-classed character, because a pure sentinel is saddled with that awful Combined Attack encounter power, and a hybrid sentinel does not lose much at all.
A hybrid sentinel can focus on top-notch controller powers like Magic Stones, Summon Giant Toad, and Charm Beast.
I am not so sure that a hybrid warden is a good pairing for it, however. Would your GM permit the usage of the sidebar in page 9 of the Dark Sun Campaign Setting?
Luke Thomas
>What are the synergies associated with a druid (sentinel)|warden?
Nothing really inherent, it's just generally nature-y but also has some leader-ish leanings because of the druid half. Also, I quite like combining animal companions with defenders for larger area control.
Michael Russell
Probably not. We made that mistake with a Dark Sun one shot before, and it felt a bit silly when half the party ended up being various divine classes in a setting with no gods.
I think I may want to go with a Shaman in the end. I'm not too worried about super-optimizing this, as some of the players are going to be newer.
I'll take a look at the rules for Hybrid classing with Sentinel and see what I can work out.
Austin Ross
>My group used to have the builder, but it's been a while since we've played.
Well, it's not like there are any new updates to consider...
Anyway, you'll find most anything on funin.space.
Kevin Perry
I would suggest an Elemental Spirit shaman with Spirit Infusion and Stalker's Strike for at-will powers, Scorching Sands for an encounter attack power, Spirit of the Healing Flood for a daily attack power, and Engaging Pursuit for a utility power.
Feats depend on how many free feats you are entitled to, and whether or not your DM will allow the Mark of Healing. However, I would absolutely, positively suggest Spirit of Vigor, which will be a great source of temporary hit points for your party.
For a race, deva, githzerai, hamadryad, or shardmind will be ideal if your GM will allow any of those. Failing that, you might have to settle for human, which will certainly leave your AC worryingly low.
Charles Butler
Have you played a pixie?
Tyler Gutierrez
Okay, I love 4e, but it seems that this thread just can't stand on its own.
Nah, cause I'm not a faggot :^) Jokes aside, in the games I played they were banned, along with draconians and some other races.
Jaxson Thompson
bump
Jeremiah Long
What does "breaking" Arcana do? Does it have some use other than the ones listed in the PHB that require super high values?
Hudson Morales
Sage of Ages ED, for one.
Liam Ward
There's a fuckload of utility powers that let you use an arcana roll for just about everything. Stealth, intimidate, bluff, diplomacy... grabbing those and pumping arcana means you only had to pump one skill.
Henry Cook
People who are playing 4e, tell me about your campaigns! I need inspiration.
Christopher Rodriguez
Sure!
I have no game. I never played 4E. Life is suffering.
Jonathan Cox
Group looks like it needs a striker. Need a fey race for plot reasons, we're in the Feywild, so no elves need apply, and no drow.
Suggestions?
Juan Stewart
How stupid do you want to go? Pixie charger can get pretty stupid.
Dylan Lee
Yeah, I'm getting that impression a lot around here. To be fair I've only played 4e once and it was with grognards who promptly decided they hated it so we never played it again.
Luis Diaz
>in Feywild >no elves or drow, despite Feywild being their home turf Wut? Gimme a sec, a player greentexted a bit of my game, a prologue game that I attempted to talk about here, but was generally shat on. Protip: no one in these threads actually play the game, much less DMs them.
Kevin Nelson
>In order to give us a crash course in the game and push us up to the party level (3-4), he decides to run us new people through a gauntlet. I hop on and make my character, a Human Fighter (Calian). The rest of the party consists of a Half Elf Battlemind (Mikael), an Eladrin Avenger (Adlai), a Half Elf Bard(Cress), and a Human Wizard (Ayzel). >Now, this gauntlet went for four sessions, and was quite possibly one of the hardest games I've played. >Session One >Our party is recruited piecemeal around the village and told to meet in a tavern (Pretty Vanilla Start). We found ourselves hired by a Human Wizard named Traxis and his second, a Dragonborn Fighter named Abraxis. They told us of a legendary Eladrin City that appears from the Feywild once every ten years. The City, or the Ruins, are abandoned, and should be rife with powerful artifacts and treasures. Should we be successful in our excavation (Read: Looting) of this ancient ruin, we will have enough gold to set ourselves up forever.
Xavier Rivera
>We all end up agreeing to work as security, and the next day we hop in a caravan with a group of mercenaries and get on our way there. As the day goes on, we stop to water the horses, and there's something weird about the ground, like someone's been running a hoe through the dirt all willy nilly. As we refill our waterskins, socialize a bit, maybe grab a bite to eat, the ground seems to quake beneath us. Suddenly, an entire carriage is crushed by a blur of motion, and the horses dragged into a large pit. >Now, I'm wigging out because I didn't sign up for this shit. Eventually we figure out it's a Land Shark, and when Adlai throws his canteen at it, its hatred of water. Now, we're hitting this thing as hard as we can, but we're just dinging off its hide. Its pretty much shaking us off and trying to eat the horses/destroy the caravan. We decide to try and distract it by using spells and letting the caravan get away. This is going great... At least until Ayzel fucks up a spell and casts a noise spell meant to intimidate ten horses on herself. The bullet jumps on her and is eventually saved by the rest of the party. Me, being kind of a dick bag, just hopped on the caravan and left with the guy that was paying me. >We decide to end our first session when we see the gates within our view. Night has fallen, and we need to be in and out by the time the sun rises, or else we will be trapped in the city until it decides to reappear.
Mason Rivera
I DM'd it, but the group fell through when two of the members decided they can't actually come consistently and the rest didn't want to continue.
I had it all planned out... sorta. Well, I'd have ripped off MGR in Eberron, but it doesn't matter now anyway.
Jayden Morris
Session Two >Walk into the city, our boss seems to be impossible to keep track of. >Brought his kids along. >Find first door. Being the jagoff I am, I kick the door in >Loot first room, and find the second door. >Try to kick it in, but the party stops me, and the door turns out to be unlocked. >Enter armory, and like the supremely intelligent character I am (calls all elves 'knife ears, and does not know the difference between pointy eared humanoids) I pull a glowing sword off the wall. >Statues in the room come to life, and beat me half to death >Several arduous rounds of combat later, we defeat the statues. Loot room, move on. >Climb 200 feet up the tower, and come to one of the stone bridges. >Start walking, our dumb asses trigger a bridge collapse. >Me, Cress, and Ayzel fall, but I catch a rope, and the others catch me. >Look around, where's Mikael? >He went the other way, and is at the other side of the bridge. >Fuck. >Traxis happens to have a scroll that magics up a bridge for us to cross on >Mikael seems to have poked the lock long enough to disable the magical door. >Go inside, Library lit by glowing blue crystals, which we find out are Storm Gems >Storm Gems are highly unstable and explosive. >After the weirdest game of acrobatics, we grab two. >Go up several floors and walk outside and come to another bridge. >Hear noises on the wind. >Look down, see figures attacking the caravan. >What the fuck? This was supposed to be abandoned! >Random 'shocked' faces. >Something crawls up over the side of the bridge. >Beetle/Spider about the size of a small dog. >End session I've been running it for 5 years, off and on, and I have found these 4e threads to be the worst of the D&D generals in terms of practical use.
Tyler Nelson
Session Three: Fuckin Spiders >ROOOOOOOOOOOOLL INITIATIVE >More of the little fuckers pop up, and then ones the size of a man that look like man spider things. They're crawling up from the sides of the bridge. >I'm in the front. >Our backline (Mikael) decides to abandon the post and rush to the front. >Spiders are pretty much always firing webs, so we are always slowed >Adlai ports back to protect our boss and his kids >We get into the most massive cluster fuck of a fight >Imagine Mines of Moria, but with spider monsters >Adlai figures out they used to be Drow. >MORE KNIFE EARS >The door behind us has a mighty slamming sound >Something way bigger than anything we've seen so far pops up >Adlai gets knocked off the bridge, falls. >Battle continues, we have to get off the bridge. >They keep coming. It's a never ending torrent of nightmare spiders >Traxis ends up getting out a wand and it pops Adlai back up onto the far end of the bridge. >Abraxis uses his dragon powers to draw the enemies upon him, tells us to run. >Hop the fuck out >Abraxis holds them all alone through a sheer combination of baller rolling and baller roleplay. >Abraxis is struck down and is doomed to be eaten by spider monsters >As we get the last of the group in, I take one of the storm gems from Traxis. >With an oath on my lips I hail mary the gem at the spiders and slam the door. >Vibrations shake the bridge, the door, and the tower itself. Blinding light streams under the door. DM Ends Session
Isaiah Sanders
>I've been running it for 5 years, off and on, and I have found these 4e threads to be the worst of the D&D generals in terms of practical use.
It can't possibly be worse than /pfg/.
Like, I respect your opinion and get that your priorities don't align with that of the residents, but lets not get hasty.
Hudson White
Absolute fact. At least /pfg/ actually talks about the game and the lore, as well as games people are in occasionally and offers DM'ing advice. The only thing you will find in these threads is shit like
Luis Phillips
Not him, but at least /pfg/ stays alive. This thread doesn't seem like it's gonna last long, which is too bad.
Isaac Gonzalez
I'd rather have it die than become the waifu hell that pfg is.
Kevin Smith
I have, it was fun. She was a survivor of the Weasel Wars and had severe anger issues (she was a barbarian) and could only be calmed down by an elf assigned to her wellbeing. In combat, she went for the eyes.
Adrian Miller
Partially because 4e had no base campaign setting. Points of Light was vastly open to be whatever you wanted it to be. This was to its benefit. Want to talk about how the Dragonborn and Tiefling fought?
Nicholas Rodriguez
This part is written by me, he never finished it. Session Four: Prepare to Die Edition >Inside, party takes a moment to patch up >girl that was attacked had her eyes clawed out, group then figures the only way out is up >runs like the dickens, but get waylaid halfway to the next tower >Avenger and Battlemind move forward, thinking the rest of the party would >Wrong >clusterfuck begins anew, party is getting surrounded again >Battlemind tries to leap between walkways in order to get back to the group, fails an athletics check even with massive bonuses >fails his saving throw, takes the long fall >party finally starts taking me seriously, uses encounters, breaks thru just as a serious horde is coming on their heels. >party gets to the noble's section of the city, come to a well furnished, covered walkway with many stormlight crystals hanging from the roof and a beautiful blue crystal canopy >door has a serious trap on it, bard tries to crack it while the party sets up for the approaching horde >party sets up a number of fire hazards that stave off the small ones, BIG ones crash thru, ones in the back start spitting acid, small ones start scaling the walls >Aysel, human bladesinger, uses Thunderwave! >The DM chuckles menacingly! >Aysel ignores the DM! >Thunderwave shatters a number of the stormlight crystals, and they start sequentially exploding, knocking 2 pcs into crits, killing most of the spider creatures, and shattering the canopy >moments later, hear a tremendous roar >roll morale v Dragonfear >yes, there is a dragon in the city >everyone fails, spider creatures run for it, half the group cowers >trapped door opens from the inside, a Shadar-kai steps out >terse conversation later, find out he was a survivor of a previous expedition >he's pissed off the pcs have basically completely ruined his hiding place, goes with the group to the Lord's tower hoping for a way out cont.
Nicholas Edwards
How to make a melee warlock that isn't a hexblade? Or a hybrid?
Aaron Jackson
>pass thru a few more towers virtually unmolested, but Caylian notices the sun rising over the mountains to the south, time is short, maybe 15 minutes max >home stretch! >see something humanoid outside the tower doors >hulking iron slabbed thing >IT'S A FUCKING GOLEM >party engages it, has the npcs stay in the rear >they draw it forward, first thing it does is shoot a fucking fireball at their formation, then charge in >Adlai teleports past it, runs to the door >it's trapped >fuck >party tries to push it off the walkway, fails, negates 3 squares of forced movement, tries to slow it, all negative effects end on it's turn, also has 2 turns a round at 25/10 initiative steps >turns around, charges the eladrin >eladrin has a moment to spit a prayer to Erathis before getting punched so hard he ragdolls into the door, almost setting off the trap, at -7 >Caylian, Shadar-Kai Mat move in, strike, back away, golem uses gravity well, Mat negates forced movement (important later) >rest of party starts moving into CC save the bard who heals eladrin, golem charges up, fiery jets out in all directions, pushing everyone away >Mat is right on the edge of the walkway, falls off >golem overheats, powers down, bard desperately tries to pop the door, succeeds >dragon roars, oh shit, it's 25 squares away bearing in! >golem reactivates >golem uses flamerthrower on dragon! Super effective >golem spends action point, uses Fisticuffs on Bard! Super effective! Bard faints! >Npcs running up, spider army is coming >3 way dance between dragon, golem, spider army commencing >dragon crashes into golem, almost pushing it off the side! >golem grapples dragon for the PILEDRIVER! >but bard is in the way... >eladrin tries to rescue bard, roll is shit >bard is squashed as Ultraman and King Ghidrah brawl it out on the bridge >party runs past the occupied creatures into the lord's room, slam door cont
Jaxon Adams
Could go for a teleport spammer. That'd be an Eladrin warlock going for one of the PPs that deals damage on a teleport, and then grab the eladrin charge feat.
Or could try a half elf and poach a better melee MBA.
Multiclassing into Paladin is also pretty good, gets you a nice encounter long mark.
Otherwise the usual stuff, grab Mindbite Scorn and killing curse.
I'm not sure about weapon choice.
Juan Taylor
>party completely toss the lord's room >Traxus looking for portal relic >isn't there as expected >neither is a door, stairs, anything >there is crates of stormlight crystals tho >Traxus has a meltdown as his children try to console him >Caylian slaps him >Eladrin finds a odd circle >teleportation circle >has a catch, you can figure it out >needs someone to stay behind to power it >group ponders it for a moment while thudding begins at the door >only one person in the party can do it, the bladesinger >curiously silent on the matter >blind girl quietly volunteers, saying it's probably for the best >DM attacks players feels! It's super effective! >Traxus pulls Caylian aside >tells him that he hates his barbaric guts, but he will protect his children or all the gods of the world will not save him from a father's wrath I guess I'll mention that I never told the party they were actually his children. >Traxus asks for one of the eladrins alchemical fires >powers the circle, party poofs at the entrance by the ruined wagons >sun is coming, and where it touches the city, it vanishes >Caylian picks up kids >the survivors run >explosion echoes in the distance >they keep running >run long after they cleared the gates And then it ended. Killed 4 of 7 pcs, frustrated my players to no end, and presented, in the opinion of one player, the craziest single game session they have ever been a part of. Sounds like a good day. There is your fucking inspiration, 4e Dark Souls: Prepare to Die Edition 2: Electric Boogaloo. And the fuckers in this thread told me my game was going to be shit.
Wyatt Hill
Your game sounds awesome, user! Though if this was a gauntlet to get into the regular game, what did you do about the 4 people who died?
Colton Jenkins
They simply make a new pc. This was just to get them accustomed to the game and the rolling, some of them have never played a d20 game before this. I'm just surprised I had so many survivors, the last time I did this, I had 1 pc walk out.
Nicholas Hernandez
I think the intro gauntlet is a really neat idea. I was actually considering doing a "dream sequence" session for the beginning of my campaign to get people into it, but I hadn't thought of making it a brutal meat grinder. I might borrow that.
Samuel Wright
You can hardly go wrong with a pixie assassin (executioner)|warlock/rogue charging with Mindbite Scorn, Streak of Light, Sneak of Shadows, and Surprising Charge.
What level are you starting at, and how high do you expect to go?
A non-hybrid, non-hexblade melee warlock is a tall order. I imagine it would only be vindicated by paragon given teleportation damage builds, such as what mentions.
What level would such a character start at, and what level would you expect them to reach? As always, this is an important factor to consider when creating builds.
Josiah Sullivan
Where could I get more information about The Chaos Scar ambient. I'm going to run a campaign in this background but I don't know very much about it. (the party is lvl 3 by the way) I already checked the information that is on 4° e wikia. Any suggestions about running the setting?
Cooper Smith
Find the right balance. The spider horde consisted of level 2 minions, level 3 soldiers, and level 4 brutes, and they only stood up to the brutes on 2 occasions. The golem was a level 7 elite solo, the dragon was a level 10 elite solo, all enemies were heavily tweaked, lots of push effects to take advantage of the fact the game took place on smooth stone walkways hundreds of feet up. I had piles of loot for them to find, but my players refused to take the time to find it, preferring to stay ahead of the horde, creating a risk/reward scenario. Toss in some npcs in order to stimulate rp between the players, get the ball rolling.
>talks about the game and the lore, as well as games people are in occasionally and offers DM'ing advice /4eg/ gets almost no posters, so anyone wanting non-mechanical feedback makes (or uses) a different thread. Usually not mentioning 4e at all, to avoid the negative stigma these edition seems to have.
Anthony Allen
Anyone have any advice for a DM new to running 4e for a party of 2 players?
I do have quite a bit of experience with running every other edition, however.
Noah Hill
Give each player a second PC to control.
D&D 4e's tactical combat and skill challenges shine in a party of 4 to 6 (ideally 5). The combat mechanics are not suited to a party of two PCs at all.
Brody Thomas
Did anyone ever make an un-fucked selection of Martial Practices? I feel like it's not a bad idea, but most of what's on offer in Martial Power 2 is awkward or implicitly limits normal skill uses. For instance, someone skilled in Thievery should already know how a hidden pocket works and how to use it, so why then lock that behind an obscure trick requiring a mysterious cost of 80 gold and a healing surge?
Noah Gray
How do you make fights with solo monsters interesting? Seems like it would be hard to make use of all the positioning stuff that normally makes multi-monster encounters tactically engaging. (Please no "just give them" answers)
Jeremiah Perez
Martial practices should be free for any character to acquire. Presumably, using a martial practice is superior to doing something the "normal" way." For instance, spending a healing surge on a Hidden Pocket hides an item astoundingly well, more so than would be possible with a plain Thievery check.
Sadly, the answer really *is* to place more enemy units on the field, whether as allies of the solo monster, summoned creatures, or body parts so massive they count as individual creatures.
Anything you could possibly do to make a battle against a single monster interesting is something you could apply to a multi-monster encounter for an even *more* engaging fight.
Jose Richardson
Either this, or some sort of (working) henchman system.
Chase Perez
Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium contains a subsystem for henchmen and hirelings, yet the combat system is still better off with 4 to 6 actual PCs.
Lucas Allen
Passive auras, some that deal damage, others that force different approaches. Dangerous terrain, or a dangerous battlefield in and of itself that the solo can take advantage of, such as elemental hazards the solo is immune to (or is healed by for maximum dick). Always, always have some kind of aoe that knocks prone on hit. Locking the players down is essential to making a solo threatening in terms of tactical approach, versus raw damage. I still believe that is full of shit, because certain creatures have a status and mythos in the game that "multiple creatures" will not; gravitas matters. A dragon, a lich, a vampire/werewolf lord, all creatures the players will look at and go "oh shit, this fight is happening", and anticipation, creating the right mindset fear and resolve, making your set piece with proper build up all eclipse something as banal as mechanical engagement. I did the gauntlet posted earlier, and I had a single golem that took on the party for 5 turns. It wasn't the golem alone that made the fight harrowing for them, it was the set piece I had built up. The party's lack of anything resembling time. That the golem was the last obstacle between escape and survival, or remaining there to die. That there was an unstoppable horde of creatures following them at that very moment, and who knows when they would arrive. That somewhere, a goddamn DRAGON was soaring about. All of these put together made what was honestly a fairly, imo, standard solo creature the height of dramatic stress, and that is honestly my biggest piece of advice. Don't use a solo unless shit fucking MATTERS, when life, limb and more is actually on the line, and make that solo powerful as balls to force the party to earn it. My level 2 party took on a level 7 solo, and most lived to tell the tale. They loved it, when they weren't cursing my name.
Connor Gomez
etc.
why the fuck are you still here, man? i quit playing 4e (and visiting Veeky Forums) for like 4 years and you're still posting build advice
Elijah Butler
This is cute, basic, system-neutral advice, but your head is so far up your ass John Wick nods approvingly in the background.
Lucas Morgan
Continue being mad, then. My way works, and has with multiple groups in multiple games. I will be as smug as I feel like in the face of all the failures on this board.
Elijah Howard
I reiterate my point to you: Anything you could possibly do to make a battle against a single monster interesting is something you could apply to a multi-monster encounter for an even *more* engaging fight.
>Passive auras, some that deal damage, others that force different approaches. >Dangerous terrain, or a dangerous battlefield in and of itself that the solo can take advantage of, such as elemental hazards the solo is immune to (or is healed by for maximum dick). Apply these to a multi-monster battle, and you have an especially interesting fight on your hands.
>Always, always have some kind of aoe that knocks prone on hit. Locking the players down is essential to making a solo threatening in terms of tactical approach, versus raw damage. Absolutely dreadful advice. If you lock your players down against a solo monster, then the fight drags into everyone standing in place and beating each other like punching bags. That defeats the point of tactical movement.
>certain creatures have a status and mythos in the game that "multiple creatures" will not Different genres call for different expectations; 4e is a game of tactical combat, and a solo monster lacks the same tactical gravitas as multiple enemy units.
>I did the gauntlet posted earlier, and I had a single golem that took on the party for 5 turns. And a pack of multiple golems would have made for a more dynamic battle.
No matter what, anything that could possibly be done to make a "party vs. one monster" battle interesting will make a "party vs. multiple enemy units" fight especially interesting.
Matthew Reed
That's because you can personally only comprehend things in terms of mechanics, and you already know it. It would probably drive you nuts to know that I rarely write down enemy numbers, but hedge them off a round number of what I want them to have, create special attacks for them on a whim that I feel are thematic, and base hp not on a number, but how many successful hits the party makes. >Absolutely dreadful advice Yes, if you are an idiot that does not know how to control flow and tempo of the battle. You are running with the assumption that such an ability is being used constantly, rather than to prevent the players from having the kind of free rein of the field that you brought up as a problem for solo monsters. Tactical movement applies to the DM as well as the players, and taking that away temporarily from the players is tactica in and of itself. >No matter what, anything that could possibly be done to make a "party vs. one monster" battle interesting will make a "party vs. multiple enemy units" fight especially interesting You've made your opinion known, I emphatically disagree. If you continue this conversation, you will be talking to yourself, because conversations with you is like talking to my autistic roommate. Wonder why.
Luke Martinez
>It would probably drive you nuts to know that I rarely write down enemy numbers, but hedge them off a round number of what I want them to have, create special attacks for them on a whim that I feel are thematic, and base hp not on a number, but how many successful hits the party makes. While this might work for a group of players who pay little attention to the mechanics and tactics of battle, it is probably going to provide an unsatisfying experience to players who go into combats with an analytical mindset.
Tactical decisions and attempts at analyzing an enemy's capacities mean nothing if a GM can create and alter enemy abilities and statistics on the spot.
>You are running with the assumption that such an ability is being used constantly, rather than to prevent the players from having the kind of free rein of the field that you brought up as a problem for solo monsters. A multitarget prone or immobilize as a 1/ or 2/encounter ability is fine. "Locking the players down" on a regular basis, on the other hand, is not, because that sabotages the movement dynamics of a battle.
>taking that away temporarily from the players is tactica in and of itself. This should be done sparingly, or else there will be more turns of PCs standing around immobile than turns of PCs actually moving.
Bentley Flores
>GM can create and alter enemy abilities and statistics on the spot I never said I did that, I said I create numbers in my head, not that the numbers constantly change. A gnoll minion at the start of an adventure will have the same stats at the end, because there is no reason for me to constantly have to remember different numbers for the same enemy in the same place. Also, tactics does not involve trying to metaknowledge out a enemy's stats, I do what I do specifically to frustrate players like you who think they can numbers there way out, rather than working with their group to combine their abilities to the best advantage. >"Locking the players down" on a regular basis, on the other hand, is not, because that sabotages the movement dynamics of a battle. You like to read a lot of things that aren't there. >This should be done sparingly No shit, but remember that pcs often can do it on command, and enemies need to account for it. I know how to effectively work a single iconic creature in a fight thru a variety of measures. It's not my concern if you don't see the value in what I do and my players enjoy.
Joshua Fisher
>It would probably drive you nuts to know that I rarely write down enemy numbers, but hedge them off a round number of what I want them to have, create special attacks for them on a whim that I feel are thematic, and base hp not on a number, but how many successful hits the party makes.
Nah, Strike! essentially does this by standarizing damage and HP numbers across the board, and Touhou seems to like it.
He's also right in that mechanically multiple opponents>single opponent. You can still present it as a single opponent; you could have, for example, made the golem be composed of body (AoE attacks like poison breath attack, and ground stomp) and the two arms (slams that push PCs around, possibly grab attack) would have been a mechanically more interesting fight.
Christopher Gonzalez
>A gnoll minion at the start of an adventure will have the same stats at the end This is better.
>Also, tactics does not involve trying to metaknowledge out a enemy's stats, I do what I do specifically to frustrate players like you who think they can numbers there way out, rather than working with their group to combine their abilities to the best advantage. This, on the other hand, is puzzling. It undermines the point of trying to make good tactical decisions if the GM simply makes up counters to X or Y tactic on the spot.
>You like to read a lot of things that aren't there. It does seem to be the conveyed piece of advice in .
>No shit, but remember that pcs often can do it on command, and enemies need to account for it. PCs can also stun and dominate enemies semi-frequently, yet PCs being stunned and/or dominated is more aggravating than anything. PCs being knocked prone and/or immobilized every so often is fine; more than half of the time is just frustrating.
>I know how to effectively work a single iconic creature in a fight thru a variety of measures. It's not my concern if you don't see the value in what I do and my players enjoy. Your players can enjoy a battle against a single opponent thanks to the other set pieces you place in the battle, but you could add more opponents to the battle and have an even more compelling encounter.
Never mind that the single most devastating debuff a solo monster in 4e can receive is a global attack penalty, which no printed solo monsters have an answer to, and which is not uncommon among PC powers. A single instance of "penalty to attack rolls equal to [ability modifier]" can neuter a solo monster for a round, possibly even longer.
Aiden Bell
Which ignores the point, anyway. The golem was not an enemy for them to fight and defeat. If they beat it down, all well for them, but odds were that a drag out fight would see them all dead. >you could add more opponents to the battle and have an even more compelling encounter. What part of "I emphatically disagree" do you keep missing. >It undermines the point of trying to make good tactical decisions if the GM simply makes up counters to X or Y tactic on the spot You are once again reading things that aren't there, and you can't call things tactical decisions when you don't actually know what a creature can do, because it is not already in a book. You are metagaming, and my approach is to directly crush it. >A single instance of "penalty to attack rolls equal to [ability modifier]" can neuter a solo monster for a round, possibly even longer. >At the beginning of the creatures turn, all negative effects end with the expenditure of an action point I use this with all solo creatures to precisely counter what you are talking about. I notice you rarely, if ever, talk about enemy design. Your knowledge of player options doesn't seem to extend to the DM seat.
Parker Walker
>Strike! essentially does this by standarizing damage and HP numbers across the board, and Touhou seems to like it. I do not see this as any different as D&D 4e standardizing monsters' hit points and damage values. That is just good game design.
>He's also right in that mechanically multiple opponents>single opponent. You can still present it as a single opponent; you could have, for example, made the golem be composed of body (AoE attacks like poison breath attack, and ground stomp) and the two arms (slams that push PCs around, possibly grab attack) would have been a mechanically more interesting fight. This is partly what I suggested here , as a monster with "body parts so massive they count as individual creatures."
In Grandia III, a video game JRPG, there was a rather interesting boss battle against a single, human-sized opponent. The boss actually counted as *four* units on the battlefield: his right arm, his left arm, his main body, and the mystical orb floating around him. Flavor-wise, he was a legendary swordsman armed with tremendously powerful blades. This is a rather extreme example, but the same principle could be applied to tabletop.
>The golem was not an enemy for them to fight See my ultimate point above, which still stands.
>you can't call things tactical decisions when you don't actually know what a creature can do, because it is not already in a book A GM being able to devise and deploy abilities that counter PC tactics on the spot heavily undermines attempts at using those tactics. The players have less reason to bother with good tactics if their tactics can be countered at the GM's whims.
>solo creatures to precisely counter what you are talking about. That is actually a decent mechanic.
>Your knowledge of player options doesn't seem to extend to the DM seat. I know my way around printed monsters, but monster design is more difficult because abilities are "Whatever the GM feels like writing down."
Liam Reyes
>I do not see this as any different as D&D 4e standardizing monsters' hit points and damage values. That is just good game design.
It's just way easier to tell; you know a 6 HP monster will be going down in 3 At-Wills or 2 Encounters (times miss chance). In 4e it's a bit more obscured.
>The golem was not an enemy for them to fight and defeat.
It was an example. If they _were_ supposed to fight the golem, it would have made a more entertaining fight. Your golem was supposed to be an obstacle to overcome, and not a tactical fight. Which is fine. But! You haven't so much made solos exciting, you have just created an obstacle that is a boring monster with a time limit. It's an tense situation that your players can have fun with, but not an exciting fight.
Jonathan Ramirez
Returning to this for a moment:
>base hp not on a number, but how many successful hits the party makes.
You must realize that this obsoletes the entirety of the striker role, and ensures that any player who spends a feat or a power on something damage-related has just wasted that feat or power.
