What went wrong?

That's 5e iconic warlock, if you couldn't tell. Warlock hate thread.

Honestly, the class performs OK. The part that wen't "wrong" is that 9.9/10 times your best course of action in any given situation to spam Agonizing/Repelling Eldritch Blast over and over and basically be a turret. It's the caster version of the Champion Fighter, without even the benefit of some extra crit perks. In combat, most of the time there's simply nothing you can do that's a better option, so it's gameplay gets super stale. This is ESPECIALLY true for Pact of Blade warlock, who's melee capabilities, even with Thirsting Blade, fall way way behind the damage and flexibility that Eldritch Blast offers.

Out of combat, Warlocks are great and dripping with flavor and cool options on a short cooldown. But in combat you're pretty much just pressing one button over and over to win.

I find the multiclassing into sorceror "fixes" this (more attack options than just EB), but naturally multiclassing shouldn't be needed to make gameplay interesting.

But the main reason to multiclass into sorcerer is to get sorcerer points to quicken eldritch blast

Reminder that multiclassing is a cancerous mechanic that either makes characters who are way stronger than intended or way weaker than intended, and attempting to balance the game around it is a fools task that would require tearing the whole game down and starting from scratch.

Multi-classing is the realm of the munchkin and min-maxing power-gaming autist, and should be disallowed in any group that actually wants to have fun.

I fail to see how min-maxing is not fun

What the fuck went wrong with that head?

Or, y'know, somone has a cool character idea that involves multiclassing.

4e did it right.

You can multiclass through feats to grab shit you need from another class for whatever character you want, or you can hybrid if your concept needs a split closer to 50 || 50.

The implementation was a bit rough, but it was a lot better than level-by-level multiclassing.

Legend's tracks are another good way to do it (and are basically kinda like hybriding, now that I think about it).

Nobody cross-classes for "fun". They claim they do, but really all they want to do 9 times out of 10 is game the system and be better than everyone else. Yeah, it's "fun"... for them... and nobody else in the game. Good job.

This is such a weak argument. Lets be honest, multiclassing isn't going to do your character concept well most of the time, because if you're not purposely trying to min-max, multiclassing is usually horribly weak and dysfunctional.

These are both just justifications for wanting to abuse mechanics over roleplay and a fun cooperative group experience, whether you guys admit it or not.


Still has a point that it shouldn;t be "necessary" to make a class good. That's Pathfinder ivory-tower "system mastery" bullshit.

this.

there is no character concept you can't make work with a path from one of the existing classes. all you have to do is be creative. if you're multiclassing, you're either trying to power-game, or you have absolutely no creative ability at all.

Um, the fact that it LITERALLY DOESN'T WORK AS INTENDED AND IS A BROKEN MECHANIC?

honestly Warlocks would be fine if they just had a few more Invocation options or damage cantrips so they could switch it up a bit. Alternatively they could have one or two more spell slots as they progress, so they arent empty or half-empty at the beginning of every single encounter.

why the fuck isnt Vicious Mockery on their spell list exactly?

>What went wrong?
WotC acquired D&D.

Quoted for Truth

I've never seen cross-classing work the way it was meant to, not once. Every instance I've seen of it was either some weasly faglord who wanted to one-man the entire campaign, or someone who tried to over-extend themselves with no idea what they doing and end up completely dissatisfied with their character.

I cringe when DMs allow cross-classing their games because it means I'm either going to be dealing with a min-maxer or something who's going to be useless.

Name one character concept that requires multi-classing to function or make sense.

>Name one character concept that requires multi-classing to function or make sense.
This one, user.

>What is Arcane Trickster/Wizard.
Basically just gives you a more versatile rogue, while still fitting you within the niche of a rogue which is being the skillmonkey and infiltrator.

Are warlocks the weakest class in 5e?

Vanilla PHB Ranger is, although most DMs who don't have their heads up their asses use the Unearthed Arcana revised ranger, which is actually good.

Way of 4 Elements Monk is also pretty garbage, but that's just a sub-class rather than all monks in general.

Nice try, that's just a bard.

Warlocks aren't weak, they're just boring. Weakest class is ranger... or in terms of Redundancy, Sorcerer. Sorcerer is just a strictly inferior wizard in every situation which doesn't involve multi-classing.

yes. eldritch blast is the only way they can keep up in combat, and both sorcerers and wizards have so many spell-slots the lock's ability to regain his on short rest will rarely, if ever, set him apart from the other casters. many encounters will happen where the party doesn't get an hour's respite between them. many days will pass where there is only one or two encounters before a long rest. while the wizard and sorcerer toss out 1st and 2nd level spells like garbage because they have tons to spare, the lock will have to carefully consider every spell because even if his slots are high level he has so few.

They tried to make a single iconic that echoed all three of the Warlock subclasses. Gothy clothes for the Fiendish option, chimes and wearing dead animals for the GOO option, and the character herself being a gnome for the Fey option.

Two spell slots for the majority of most campaigns (and for most campaigns, it's "just one before that" not "and later 3"), ONE of which is already getting burnt to get your warlock curse.

A large number of invocations are in this format:
>Once a day, you may expend a spell slot to cast this one spell
It's not added to your list, it's not once a day you can cast this spell, it's "well you sorta are allowed to use this now, with all the usual costs, but also just once a day and with less benefits too".

The above combine with the fact that you need at LEAST three short-rests a day for your actual spellcasting capabilities to equal all the other casters: At just 2-3 a day any other caster's highest 2-3 level spell slots (because, see, they get to keep the low ones as they add the high ones unlike warlocks) will in fact be just as numerous.

So in the end most of the time you're better off just getting agonizing blast then switching to, say, Sorcerer or even fighter (for the action surge). Your cantrip will grow with you anyways, and a majority of the invocations are either trash or "you get something equivalent to this level 1 spell because you're level 15, but you can do it at will for the two times a day you'd need it once", as some of the really good ones were removed from the beta

CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING: the Warlock is a cantrip-focused magic user.

Eldritch Blast is flat-out their best attack option, even without the Agonizing and Repelling options. Hex is a first-level spell that in theory scales with higher level spell slots, but really scales with your cantrips. Several invocations basically give you cantrips. Some even specify that you get a spell, but you can use it at-will. Pact of The Tome gives you someone else's cantrips, plus access to rituals, which are basically slow cantrips.

Your non-cantrip spells are all the same effective spell level unless you deliberately throttle them back. And your spell slots come back in the space between "at-will" and "daily." Your subclass options are chock full of effectively more once-per-short-rest abilities.

That's the Warlock from a mechanical perspective: an extreme version of the Sorcerer, spamming tons of minor effects. Based on that, I'd expect the Warlock to fall off in both fun and effectiveness once you reach high levels: is that what players experience? Warlock dropping off as you go up?

I've seen multi-classing done well once, in Legend, a badly-named 3.x retroclone.

Each class has three paths associated with it, and leveling up in that class slowly advances you along all three paths. But you're free to swap a single path from your class with one from another class. So you could make a rogue who can't sneak attack but *can* smite, for example.

this. the spells added through invocations are nowhere equal to the vast library of spells the other casters have access to, and can cast frequently.

access to rituals as a path-given feature is retarded. almost every class or subclass who can cast a spell, can also cast rituals. other casters can also choose to cast rituals as regular spells for use in combat, where the tomelock can only ever cast the rituals as rituals. he also can only get whatever rituals the GM makes available for him, so his efficiency is entirely dependent on loot.

because locks are absolutely nothing without their blasts, warlocks dip whenever the damage from eldritch blast starts to become less than equal to the output of the other players. that is, a couple of levels before every damage upgrade.

locks become a little more fun with their mystic arcanum spells, but by that time the other casters are shitting high level fireballs, so they still dont stand out in any way.