Describe a good DMPC

>Like they're impatient and will spring traps if the party doesn't stop them,
>they are decent enough support but they're annoying

user the fact you put these two in the same sentence suggests you think- or thought at one time- that the Impatient flaw is anywhere near acceptable.

>go on this adventure you little shit
>now that you're too far to turn back, I've got better things to do, enjoy all the danger you're ill-suited for

I have a feeling that Bilbo wasn't the first hobbit Gandalf sent on an adventure, he's just the first to come back.

Obedient. Does what their told, little more. Doesn't suggest anything unless asked. Will sprout lore if requested. Weaker than the party members, only exists to do the things that they cannot. (no healer, no tank, etc.)

>I have a feeling that Bilbo wasn't the first hobbit Gandalf sent on an adventure, he's just the first to come back.

The book explicitly states that he's taken Hobbits out of the Shire (presumably on adventures) before, usually from the Took family. A lot of them came back; it's one of the reasons why the Tooks aren't as "respectable" as the Baggins, but are unimaginably richer.

You can't. If they were good, they'd just be called NPCs.

This.

Smaller groups will have these sort of gaps in the party, other than that the DMPC will be there to expound on some of the lore and in a pinch be a means of giving the party roundabout hints.

>how to get your players to hate the DMPC and wish for their death

>(presumably on adventures)

>We got actual XP and bonuses for working around his dumb ass.

That would be a wonderful reason to have a NPC that is a pain in the ass to work with. It's basically a "DM Crafted Encounter" that you can not defeat with combat. But perhaps not for a whole campaign, just a section in it.

Here's how to DMPC:

1. Stat a character that fills a role the party needs.

2. Roleplay them as someone who supports the party, guiding them only if absolutely necessary.

3. Whenever they need to roll dice, the players roll for you. Have them rotate turns playing as the DMPC during combat if it comes up.

It was more steam of consciousness. Actually that's just how I played off that random ranger in the Homlet module (T1). I knew we were running a light # party for level 1 1st ed module created by gygax.

The annoying one came more from a try at doing a parody campaign in Pathfinder where I had the party run off to a dungeon, but one of the players couldn't make it. Instead of letting the party do something stupid to his character while he was out, I plopped in a character I would release control of if the players took too long to get back to town to regroup. I had the solo character do something else in the meantime (I think it was espionage based). So yeah I made a cleric that spoke like a great bro ( thinking of the idea of some cleric orders would have separate orders like fraternities since they come from the richest families).

I guess I'm using that to clarify I tried to put in characters that can help get the party to be more circumspect of either the setting or the game mechanics.

You forgot asking the player if they want a support character. That's fucking rule one for anything.

>the DMPC is the ghost in your new enchanted sword
>it won't stop making dumb jokes and cackling

I laughed when that happens. My group did kill the DMPCs on more than one occasion. I think it will add flavor to the setting if they DMPC has either a faction of a family that thinks the party is suspicious in their explanation of killing the PC. It forced them to get more role play in.

You need to get this through your head:

An NPC that follows the party is not a DMPC.
The DM deciding he wants to play along and making a character they unironically play as an extra party member is a DMPC.

A DMPC is a sign of a fuckpocalypse of a GM and can never be good.

>An NPC that follows the party is not a DMPC.
Side note: NPCs that the party can not easily ditch or tell to leave are also DMPCs

But mostly this yes.

A DMPC that doesn't exist. I can't think of a single situation where a DMPC could be necessary. You got regular NPCs for anything a DMPC could do.

Only faux temporal DMPCs caused by rotating DMs in a situation where the current DM's character cannot disappear should ever exist.

We play Mathfinder. During the storyline of our campaign, our small group (3 players) often crosses paths with heroes, soldiers and priests, mostly either belonging to our kingdom or our religion (We're basically a sanctioned Inquisition in pursuit of necromancers). The noteworthy ones have been specifically rolled up using PC rules, whereas the less important NPCs simply get assigned a fitting statblock from the NPC database. When our next mission or goal seems too difficult, we simply ask if someone would be willing to accompany us, the DM decided based on their personality and personal goals, and then off we go either with or without a DMPC. They either leave afterwards (after gaining mutual respect and gratitude, furthering game immersion and connections), or died.

Simple as that.

A good DMPC never takes up the limelight in combat outside of the occasional glorious crit, compliments the playstyle of the group in a minor but useful manner, is never better than anyone in the group, but still competent in their own right, and isn't just there for a forced emotional cop out when desired. You let them die a good death in combat, without fuckery, not just knock them off to highlight the power of a new enemy.

Essentially, it's a little demi PC the DM gets to use to help the party, and have a potential interesting character. A couple of games I've played, there were recurring NPCs that we liked so much we drug them along for the adventure.

Remember, the game is a story about the party and their characters, in the world of the DM's creation and control. Don't let them be characters in your story as a DM, but don't be afraid to make your own cast of characters to populate the world.

I've always found it's best to just throw out slightly fleshed out NPCs at the party enmass during their travels, and see if any of them are drug along by the PCs. From there, have them be one of the camp followers, occasional hold out fighter for the group. Maybe they have a few quest hooks dangling from them, a few that would help them out, but take time and resources to fulfill. A gauge of how much the PCs like them.

For the duration of their company, the DM gets to play them as he would any other character. I don't see how this would ever be a problem, unless the DM has a penchant for railroading or glory-stealing (ours doesn't).

Why on earth would I want that? I'm the one establishing the challenges and I have basically infinite possibilities. They don't need any support or role that they don't have already unless I'm a cunt who gives them challenges unrelated to what characters they made. If they need it, it's anecdotical and no basis for an DMPC because the NPC will only be around for a session or two at best.

>Mathfinder
Isn't that the RPG where furries and weaboos try to find the mythical theorem of Pytha Gorras?

>Kill BBEG using sword that absorbs souls
>Instead of being banished to an eternity of oblivion he's just stuck in the sword
>Gets really mad when a second BBEG arrives and is conflicted over whether to help you beat them or to constantly harass you with shitty puns and bad advice

>rwo bbeg's

I don't think you understand what a BBEG is.

sumfin like that

d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sacred-geometry

>Gandalf just buggers Hobbit boypucci and pays them in ancient jewels.

Explains why he took to Merry and Pippin until they drank entbeer.

>He's never had a BBEG who arrives to replace the deposed villain, who is then no longer the BBEG

balanced with all the party and serve their narative purpose

He means that, if that's the case, the first "BBEG" is not the BBEG.

I had a DMNPC that was the boss of the PMC my players were working for.
They got about shoulder deep into some serious crap, so he had to go from NPC to PC because he's the kind of guy who bails his boys out.

I concur with other user, you really don't seem to understand what a BBEG is.

The first B stands for "Biggest," i.e., the biggest currently alive

>Obedient. Does what their told, little more. Doesn't suggest anything unless asked.
Maybe if the character is a slave. What you described sounds like it has less character than a standard NPC.

>Weaker than the party members, only exists to do the things that they cannot.
This part you nailed. Nobody ever really thinks of the DMPC as an actual party member, so don't try to make them like one. They'll wind up as the awkward 3rd wheel nobody likes having around.

I think user is more saying that who the players THINK the BBEG is is replaced by the real one...

That or he doesn't understand it essentially means FINAL badguy

Exactly

Huh. Usually in my group if we beat the BBEG and then later want to come back to the same setting with the same characters, the DM just makes another BBEG.

This all the way.

As a novice GM with novice players I actually used DMPCs a bit too often, but unwittingly they turned out to be helpful NPCs, and the players were always thankful that an character with common sense was around to help or offer advice. In fact, one of them was really liked by the party and they usually ask if he can come back.

So yeah, if you need to use NPCs following the party, make sure they're made for the party's needs, not yours.

That's not the BBEG then.
You're using BBEG interchangeable with "villain" rather than "final villain."

They're different stories, so different BBEG can exist. It's a narrative term.

>BBEG means final villain

My understanding was that it related to the villain of a particular campaign or major event.

My mistake.

There isn't one. A DMPC is by design intrusive. It's literally the GM inviting himself along on the players' adventures because hed rather be a player. This desire isn't bad in of itself, but it's not the GM's job and he should know this going in.

If the players want an NPC following them around they'll seek one out themselves. One of the easiest ways to piss off players is insisting they drag around your PC concepts.

This. And to add to this (although it was already implicit) there's nothing desirable that a DMPC can do that an NPC could do better.

>My understanding was that it related to the villain of a particular campaign

He basically is as long as the other campaigns aren't related to it. Frodo's BBEG was Sauron in LOTR, but if I'm making some bad fanfic where magic elf heaven is invaded by the Galactic Empire then Sheev is the BBEG of that story. They're unrelated stories. If my shitty fanfic makes Sheev invade the Middle Earth while Frodo is still travelling to Mordor then Sauron is still the BBEG of the story unless I want to make it even shittier and make Frodo and Sauron join forces against the Galactic Empire. In that case Sheev would be the BBEG and Sauron would not.

It's a pretty common mistake, actually. One of the reasons why some people prefer just using "villain" and "main villain".

>They're called the Tooks because they're the hobbits that Gandalf took.

My brain.

As expected of the master, Mr. Tolkien!

Heh.

Like this.

You may be thinking of Dungeons and Discourse, a similarly hopelessly nerdy D&D knockoff made by a philosophy graduate. As another philosophy graduate, I will state: both mechanically and otherwise, it sucks donkey dick.

There are no good DMPCs. If they were good, they'd be NPCs.

Literally the canon version of a goblin or low level enemy the party gets attached to at the beginning of the campaign and then drags to the end.

FUCKING YEARS AFTER HIS DEATH, AND THIS AUTHOR MAKES CHUMPS OUT OF FICTION WRITERS.

How can modern fantasy writers compete?

Ace Rimmer

The more I learn about MAID, the less I know if its awesome or terrible.

>the less I know if its awesome or terrible.

Gee I too question the quality of a game designed around blatant waifufagging.

Walhart was such an uncharacteristically good JRPG villain.

Something about the BBEG being more concerned about the setting equivalent of Alexander the Great and his unstoppable army than the teenage hero with his magic sword is great.

Realize that Veeky Forums's definition of a GMPC isn't the only one.

A competent GM can run a full-time PC if otherwise the party would be too small. Implied in being competent is not making your character more powerful than the others, and not giving them special treatment; obviously, competent GMs are few and far between if Veeky Forums is to be believed.

>Low level
He just dumped all his points into wealth and contacts instead of magical bullshit like the party

A good DMPC:

Doesn't overstay it;s welcome

Has goals beyond the party

Is memorable

Is roughly equal power to the party. If it's a character that continually reappears by the player's volition, then they should have progressed like the players, but likely not as much.

But it's not based around that at all. I've read the rules and it has nothing to do with that. Have you ever played this game?

Examples:
Played game with rotating GM, so the pc became GMPC and as a rule stayed back and never lead decisions unless directly asked by players.

Commanding Officer/REMF support: Very mission based game, so gave the GM a means to deliver the missions, and have access to a greater variety of useful skills for a small party.
But stayed out of the way most of the time

NPC the players came to like to much we kept inviting along to things. GM had fun with him too, so was kinda a party sidekick.

Oh hey a completely reasonable and fair approach to criticizing the use of the term BBEG. It's been forever since I've seen one of those

>Doesn't overstay it;s welcome
How do I get my NPCs to leave?
Whenever I feel like one's story is done, the players usually just invite them to go save the world. Two campaigns in a row they've had crews of dozens following them around, because the campaign stakes are usually so high that most able bodied people kinda just agree that saving the world is a really big deal and something they should help with.

Have them politely decline? They have obligations elsewhere, but give them enough informaton to find the NPC again if they need them.

>because the campaign stakes are usually so high that most able bodied people kinda just agree that saving the world is a really big deal and something they should help with.

In that case, have them need to divide their forces due to this threat. Not everyone can go out and attack or adventure. Someone needs to stay back and protect the base.

Oh another good one is to bring in conflict. Everyone may agree something needs to be done, but not everyone agrees on what.

Maybe some NPCs disagree with the players methods and go do their own thing?

A good dmpc fills whatever niche, aside from face, that the party is missing, doesn't speak, follows orders, and "notices" important information the players didn't pick up on.

I usually make entertaining and comedic characters to contrast with my players' serious tones. They never overstay their welcome, and I usually find places for them to go as the players do something to complement the DMPCs actions.

Cestree is great in any role or position.

My party actually took a goblin hostage and have made him an honorary member of the party.

You know those, X amount of things around the world? The NPCs go to the ones the heroes don't go to.

I wouldn't say there's a "good" DMPC, but there's a "fine" DMPC, a DMPC that is fine to exist. If there's a small group and the DM creates a DMPC to fill a role the group doesn't have, and as long as that DMPC stays in the back row during social encounters and such, there's nothing wrong with that. Adding another player to fill that role (assuming you could find a good player who wanted to fill said role) would be better, but the setup described works fine.

Brigadier Lethbridge Stewart.

I would presume he said it as in "This is the BBEG" but then surprised his players with a new one, using the term for effect even if it's false.

>your sword absorbs the souls of people you killed
>your sword just calls you a cunt in 50 different voices all day
>your sword screams every time you try to go to sleep
>all night
>if you try talking to cute girls, your sword tells them you've got a micropenis, or horrible skin diseases
Soul stealing swords are a bad plan

Perfect.

Thank you.

>Does what their told

Please stop typing like an uneducated nigger.

If you were playing Phandolin it's pretty much written into the DMs notes.

I killed him along with everyone else in that room with burning hands.

this is why you properly break your sword first. You can't just go around with an untrained sword. You gotta punish it when it acts out. Have a bucket filled with rust handy and stab it when the sword doesn't do as its told.

I had a friendly tech-priest who secured the party equipment, occasionally helped them out, and provided helpful advice when called in. I tried to phase her out, but the party loved her and went through hell and back to save her time and again.

Any person who says "BBEG" or "Big Bad Evil Guy" in real life should be shot.

i don't think he said it out loud dude. It was just implied.

The kind who are fun to kill.

>[x] Filled with candy

Got it.

My GMPC is mostly used to summarize plans, move things ahead, or recommend ideas

>Party makes a plan that takes a good amount of steps and could be somewhat confusing
>"So we're doing (Summarized version of the plan)"

>Party is currently clueless as what to do or haven't reviewed their goals in a while (It's a sandbox game)
>"What about (Place that isn't important, but could lead to some nice instances)"

>Feel like player hasn't been getting their fair share of talk
>"So (player) anything new?"

Never interferes in combat (Unless it's necessary for him to do), Has enough of a character to not just be dismissed as a satellite NPC, but doesn't steal the spotlight away from no one (He only opens up when people ask him, or when the players actively spend time with him)

Has enough backstory to be called a realized character, but simple enough that he's flexible and can change with the story

The PnP equivalent of Beat 'Em Up arrow, pointing the PCs in the direction of the next stat block to beat up.

What's his class, user? You could probably upgrade him to some kind of Backpacker or Bard just to help the team out a little bit. Making him a cleric would probably be a bad idea though, too hard to show off why he would suddenly become religious.

>Difficult for a GM to affect a character
he literally affects everything, just have his GMPC go through a near death experience and be saved by a clearly divine miracle.

Good thing this is Veeky Forums and not real life. Also hello again, I was wondering when you would show up

An NPC