Weakest army in 40k?

Would scions count as an army? Can't imagine that an army of three units could be all that great

Guard have too many tanks and tricks at their disposal. They're still mid-tier.

The only army I would still rate at the bottom is Orks.

FIVE UNITS YOU PEACE OF SHIT! We have 5 units.
Tempstus Scions
Tempsutus Command Squads
Taurox Prime
Valkyrie
Commisar/Lord Commisar.
THATS 5!! learn to count

Shit fluff too.

how the fuck do you niggers deal with wraithknights and landraider?

Tanks are right above Walker's as being the absolute worst unit type in 40k.

Having to rely on tanks and artillery is part of why they're such a bad faction.

Melta/missile launchers

only the valks and the taurox have missiles, and both are made out of toilet paper
you can carry two meltas per squad of fragile overcosted hummies
scions need elite units and heavy support
i thought the new ogryn model were going to also be available to MT
also
>why another imperial army

The Tau need another buff.

Grey Knights
>Low Model Count
>Overcosted
>Can't kill AV13+ reliably
>Shit formations
>Anyone can do their job better
>Struggle against Daemons
>Only 5 Viable units (Librarian, Terminators, Interceptors, Purifiers, Dreadknights)

It fucking hurts, bros...

I wasn't around for the apparent 5th edition cheese.

a flyrant costs 240 points

They're horrendously expensive for what they can do.

They are expensive, they're also one of the most point-to-point units in the game.

Penta-Flyrant lists have done extremely well in the LVO on more than one occasion.

What's the worst/best army assuming you're picking units randomly with no considerations of power level or synergy?

They have cheap Leman russes, sure. But thats useless. All tanks and artillery are useless when you meet drop pods or bikes or cavalry.

Before IG could realy on having a LOT of models, but now you meet some eldar scatterspam and 100 guardsmen are dead in two turns.

IG became almost an insta-lose army in more competetive 40k

As a guard player I would disagree that they are mid tier. Tanks are shit and I know not what tricks you are referring too.

However, IG are still much stronger than Orks. Orks are toilet tier.

Another Guardfag here. I haven't played in yonks, but I feel like Guard being solidly mid-tier is mostly a result of memories of the glorious leafblower lists from 5e. Until vehicles get the buff they so desperately need to match up to MCs (or MCs get knocked down a peg, or the whole game gets power-balanced, or unicorns fly from the Moon to institute the Thousand Year Reign of the Sherbert Kingdom), though, we'll probably quietly go down in rank not because our codex gets worse in and of itself, but because we won't get access to whatever new hotness there is (no MCs, weak psykers, only Guardblobs/Ogryn/Bullgryn for melee...)

I actually hope the rumours there being no AVs and all vehicles becoming like MCs are true. Since that would finally make those balanced.

You are dumb

its clearly the Squats

I'm...on the fence about stuff like that. I agree that vehicles need access to some kind of armor/invuln save, but I don't mind differing armor values for f/s/r. Also, I feel like bringing MCs down to meet vehicles partway would be better than just boosting vehicles to MC-tier bullshittery.

Orks. Worse than just being weak, they've had so much fun drained away from them too. Just look at their Codex compared to the older ones.

Looted Vehicles? GW shills suggest you can do this by having them 'count as' a Trukk or Battlewagon, but either of those is a poor fit for a Chimera, a Rhino, a Hellhound, a Basilisk, a Predator, etc.

Madboyz? Nope, no fun allowed. Orks are serious business. If you haven't read and enjoyed 'the Beast' series then you're obviously some lolsorandum grognard who doesn't understand that Orks are totes le grimdark now senpai.

Clans? What, you mean the remnants of the Beast's highly regimented organizational structure? No special rules needed for those, sonny jim.

Also a guardfag here. I haven't played in over a year, but I quit because IG was too underpowered compared to the other armies. They're not weak in the fluff, but on the tabletop even breathing on a guard squad wipes it out and just giving a dirty look at a Leman causes it to explode. I miss the days when the IG were a force to be reckoned with.

>BA
What makes BA bad, user? Curious to hear your thoughts.

>Orks. Worse than just being weak, they've had so much fun drained away from them too. Just look at their Codex compared to the older ones.

The same sadly could be said of the Nids. Yeah, they've got a couple of competitive builds, but the rest are shit tier builds. I miss the days of the 4th edition codex when my gaming friends had to wonder if I was bringing a swarm heavy force, a mix force, a MC heavy force, a tunneling / deep striking force, etc. They didn't always win, and they were both fun to play with and to play against. Playing the few competitive builds (just to offer a challenge) over and over again gets old quickly.

Official WH40K power rankings including all GW standalone codices and FW armies:

>Elder god tier
-Cheese Marines (Grav spam, Skyhammer, Gladius, etc)
-Space Wolves (see above, plus helfrost etc)
-Craftworld Eldar (it's basically impossible *not* to take cheese with these guys)
-Eldar Corsairs (an entire army of Warp Spiders and Jetbikes)
-War Convocation
>God tier
-Codex: Space Marines CAD without Graviton weaponry
-Tau
-Necrons
-Flyrant spam
-Other AdMech
-Chaos Demons/KDK
-Genestealer Cults?
>Good Tier
-Sisters of Battle
-Imperial Guard/DKoK/Armored Battalion
-Blood Angels
-Traitor Legions
-Renegades and Heretics
-Tyrant's Legion
>Low Tier
-Grey Knights
-Elysian Drop Troops/D-99
>Shit Tier
-Dark Eldar
-Tyranids other than Flyrant spam
>Ork Tier
-Orks

Necrons aren't that high, they're only good tier.

Irks or Dark Eldar

Necrons are really good, you're either bad at them or your judgement is warped by gravcannons.

>tfw I play all of the Eldar armies

You forgot to list Harlequins :^)

Mostly the Assault Phase this edition. Some people are also upset that vanilla marines get units and formations that BAs don't.

They don't place nearly enough to be considered god tier.

...

Yeah but, as you said, at least Nids have some competitive builds. Orks on the other hand, don't even have that. The best you can do is spam MANz missiles, Tankbustas, Mek Guns and you'll STILL be crushed by any army list worth it's salt.

Pretty accurate. Traitor Legions range from God tier (Death Guard) to Low tier (Word Bearers), but that's about it.

Make all Tau battlesuits into Walkers and see how fucking good they are.

MCs are fucking bullshit.

They'd still be pretty good.

I'm willing to be proved otherwise, but I haven't seen any stats that place them any higher than the good tier armies.

Only Elder God Tier armies place at tournaments, user.

If I ever get into Warhammer 40k, I wanted to field a Imperial Guard army of massive infantry and artillery. Are they really that bad?

Just like all the shit Veeky Forums talks about D&D, it actually depends on you, you codex, *and* your group.

If your FLGS is all Cirque Du Fromage bullshit, no IG list you make is going to be "good" - you'll only win based on you knowing your army way better than your opponent knows whatever FotM WAAC netlist he just downloaded. If your group is more beer'n'pretzels, you'll be fine.

If you don't know how your army works, you're fucked. Remember that Sun Tzu quote about knowing your enemy and yourself.

Last, for the codex - Infantry spam has always been one of our strongpoints, but losing Chenkov and Send In The Next Wave! was kind of a fucker. Also, we're already one of the slower codices, and infy-arty does nothing to change that. You may very well find yourself effectively ceding the initiative to the other guy/s the moment the game starts. You will also need to make sure your arty has plenty of bubble-wrap, or one outflanking/deep-striking unit will waltz through your ranged firepower and leave you relying solely on your Guardsmen - they're not bad, but they're generally too squishy to carry you like that.

All that said, though, this is a hobby, not just a game. If you really want to collect an infy-arty list, fucking go for it! It's better to sink money into an army you enjoy but don't always win with than sink money into an efficient list that you hate.

>-Space Wolves (see above, plus helfrost etc)
Fucking wot? Space wolves explicitly don't have grav, skyhammer or gladius, Helfrost is rare and expensive and not nearly as broken as grav

Although they still belong in god tier with fully optimized Wulfen and Thunderwolf face fucking lists

Ravenwings is god tier, since it's statistically impossible to even hurt them if you are not well equipped to ignore cover or catch them in close combat.

>not even listing DA
Truly we are the forgotten marines.

Well that's sucks, I always wanted to play as dark eldar. Oh well I'd rather lose more often than not and have a super cool looking army.

Dark Angels, Black Templars, and Iron Hands are all C:SM now. Only Space Wolves and Blood Angels still have separate codices.

By those standards every army other than orks and CSM are horrendously overpowered. You can't judge a codex by one unit.

Why?

Um I've got a Dark Angels codex right here. 7th edition.
And a DA army, I'm pretty sure my boys didn't get squatted without me noticing.
We keep winning tournaments with Ravenwing too...

Since 1850 is the standard, what's a good list for squadron of artillery, a big blob of infantry as a line of defence, and some deep striking storm troopers for backdoor objectives?

>dark angels
Then pls explain why i can't take centurions or decent flyers. Also explain why my bikes have rerollable 2+ jinks :^)

My bad, I thought you just had a supplement that got rolled into AoD like my Iron Hands, but I guess not.

We never got a supplement, weirdly enough.
Still waiting for some new formations...

How do tyranids play alongside genestealer cults?

Having some leman russes alongside carnies and such actually make a real lasting effect or?

There's not much in the way of synergy between the two outside of slapping some flyrants in for some AA.

>CSM

CSM aren't even bad anymore. Orks is the ONLY codex that doesn't have a build or unit they can try to spam to be good.

Codexes are as good as the best lists that can be made from them though, it's like this in any competitive game

I mean by this logic tau is a shit codex because they have a few bad units like the fliers and vespids

I don't really agree with the user you mentioned anymore than you do, but it does highlight an issue with the current Tyranids Codex. The Flyrant is so critical to most nid lists that not including it is like admitting defeat before the game even starts. None of the other HQ options available in the same codex offer the amount of versatility as a Flyrant does for what you pay for it.

Tyranids are still pretty damn low tier, but a single unit helps them punch up higher than they have any right to.

No, that logic doesn't work, because the Tau's weakest units are not only better than other army's weakest units, Tau have far fewer weak units. This incorrect logic is why you see retards claiming Eldar "isn't even OP if you don't make WAAC builds". No, you dumb nigger, ANY Eldar list is going to be above average, even 120 Storm Guardians.

But they aren't, as there is no unit in either force you mentioned that is comparable to how amazingly strong a Flyrant is.

I can point you to multiple instances of Flyrant lists performing exceptionally well in Grand tournaments. How many Chaos lists can you show me winning tournaments that don't have daemon allies? I'll wait.

asking which is the best and saying you don't want WAAC is like refuting your own arguement. If you're not playing competitive then you're playing for fluff, in which case the best army is the one you like the best, you dumb nigger

Good thing that was my first post in the thread, dipshit. And there's probably like 5+ people in this conversation that aren't even the original person, who I can't even find because he's not part of the quote chain, so where you got "asking for best but not WAAC" from I have no idea, other than your own retardation.

>How many Chaos lists can you show me winning tournaments that don't have daemon allies? I'll wait.

Chaos Renegades just topped LVO and have placed multiple times in 2016.

youtube.com/watch?v=rrYnZ7ZxRe4
I'm not even being cynical posting this, it's clear fucking cut.
same reason skit are not a unified admech codex, dw wanted to push formations between forces and were like eh? why the fuck not make this another force? we can sell more books maybe some idiot will buy it as an army.
also
karsakin master race

>Good thing that was my first post in the thread
Don't care, I was only replying to that post and the arguments contained within it. Reading comprehension please lad.
>And there's probably like 5+ people in this conversation that aren't even the original person, who I can't even find because he's not part of the quote chain
As above.
>o where you got "asking for best but not WAAC" from I have no idea,
Because if you are talking about tier lists and what army is the best, you're playing to fucking win. And if you're playing to win, you're taking viable army lists, because if you don't, you're gimping yourself (or you're playing fluffy lists for fun). It's really really simple. You can't really have a discussion about army power levels out of a WAAC context.
>other than your own retardation.
No idea why you're so worked up if that's your first post in the thread, mind. Lay off the tren my roid raging friend?

This is the first clearly gameplay related thread I've seen on 40k in Veeky Forums. Ever. I've been here like 4 years

just like nobody on Veeky Forums lifts and nobody on /mu/ actually likes music, nobody here actually plays 40k.

I don't want to shit on your dreams user so understand i do this with the best of intentions
>artillery can only purchased via the gw store or forge world, the former is the manticore/bigdig and the latter is earthshaker.
>forge does offer some of the best choice for artillery from rapiers to quad morters at the cheap end to medusa and Minotaur on the expensive end, most of them field/heavy guns.
>Your minimum troop choice costs at minimum 90 bucks.before taxes might be less in USD but 30 per cadian box, you need 25 cadians for a platoon.
>special weapons will suck
no bs 4, no discount.
>heavy weapons sort of suck
50 dollars for 3, up to 5 in a squad, you need them because you won't really have a lot of fire support lest you forge world.
> s3 ap - guns
nuff said.
>bring it down no longer twinlinks.
which i think is worth more on your bs 3 then tank/monster hunter

but there are upsides
>they can't kill ALL your men
and i think you don't cede victory points for combined squads.

this is advise but I'd suggest for price and easing yourself into it buying the getting started and an iron fist so you can have one or two infantry tanks to make a cyblob army before swinging into full ww1 and collecting towards a full blob because of the price
Emperor's speed guard bro
emp's speed.

Eldar. it's a very specialized army that is extremely hard to use. They tend to attract the more experienced and tactically minded players which is why they always win. eldar needs 100% pure player skill and genius for them to win, which is why they are the hardest army

Different user here, but when you get called out for fucking up, don't double down on the retardation, man.
You assumed that only one person was responding to you, so don't get butthurt when you have your idiocy pointed out.

>You assumed that only one person was responding to you
No I fucking didn't. Get some reading comprehension.

As a rough draft, something like this is a solid start.

>Because if you are talking about tier lists and what army is the best, you're playing to fucking win.

Wrong, because you literally cannot have a discussion about two different factions without talking about their relative tiering, competitive or casual. You would just have a bunch of insubstantial and vague adjectives otherwise.

If you wanna go full competetive I'd swap the commissars for priests.

Also, bleh. Wyverns, such a disgusting piece cheese. I hope they get nerfed to the ground in the next codex

Pound per point, which army would be the worst(most expensive to field)?
Which one would be the best and most efficient?

I don't get why you'd want lascannons onto your 40m blob, autocannons I can understand, more dakka, but I'd put lascannons in a separate heavy weapon squad and keep the blob without heavy weapons or with a bolter.
Reasons are: orders are better and lascannons usually aim at shit you can't hurt with lasguns

Problem with priests is that Zealot can be a double edged sword. The melee buffs look nice but guard are so shit in assault that some little buffs ain't goanna save them. Also the L9 from the commissar helps with issuing orders.

Wyverns ain't all that...

still I think you've also got the troop count wrong, a troop with a heavy weapon team inside has 9 models (heavy weapons use up 2 guys)

HWS are so fragile that the only way I've found they can work is to hide them in infantry. T3 means they just get instakilled first turn when you play against someone who knows how to play, remember you only need one to die before they start running. I consider the guardsmen to be objective capturing tentacles and wounds for the lascannons, sure I'm losing loads of S3 AP- shots (boo fucking hoo) but with the bring it down order they can sometimes help.

That is correct, I assumed the list builder would handle that automatically. I made that list in 10 mins just to give user a rough idea of the list

Baseline Space Marine Codex is propped up by Grav weaponry and Gladius Strike Force (aka free ObSec transports). BA get neither of those things, and this edition is not kind to assault armies, especially not assault MEQ's.

Chaos Daemons are Elder God tier. KDK is Good tier. Traitor Legions are too variable, some are Good, some are Low, some are Shit. Tau belong in Elder God is WarConvo and SW are in it.

Ork biker spam lists can do pretty well, and CSM are all over the place depending on the legion.

That's not CSM.

Any of the FW armies. DKOK would probably be the worst.

Underestimating the mighty lasgun is the reason why people lose against me (a full 50 troop with orders can bring down everything short of wraithknights), and cover does miracles for HWS (also a Vendetta is superior in every single way, and it can also drop a suicide squad with 3 meltas).

Nah, Tau JSJ faggotry can't compete with Skyhammer/Grav/D spam faggotry. They're better than Necrons and no-bullshit C:SM, but not Eldar god tier. I agree with you other than that, though.

Have you seen how ubiquitous Riptide Wings are in actual tournament lists? There were two Tau heavy lists in the LVO Top 8.

Cover is the only save they are going to get, but that doesn't change the fact that a HWS is only 3, T3 models. Cover or not, they still die far to easy. I don't own a vendetta so I can't say for sure but they look amazing with the 3 TL lasscannons.

The lasgun can technically kill a lot of stuff, however with the amount of 2+ saves and fnp going around these days, you just don't get enough shots for them to make a difference, not to mention opponents can easily avoid the big slow blob if they care to. I've turned the tide far move often with a squad of plasma vets than I have with some lucky lasgun volleys.

Most expensive is DKoK, cheapest is actually Imperial Knights, probably. The boxed game is $200 for two knights IIRC. Buy two and you've got a 1500 point army with some free terrain.

And both got absolutely thrashed when they came up against other top-tier players playing eldar god tier armies.

Do these god armies just consist of Scat bikes and Wraith-X models? Cause there's a guy who only shows up for tournaments at a shop I go to who only uses Jetbikes and Wraith units like it was going out of style. To be fair that might be the only time he plays, no one puts up with his shit any other time.