40k Cheese

I think I'm in a 'That Group' when it comes to my local shop. I'm a Tau player, and I always try to warn them of what exactly I'm bringing so they can bring an answer to it. AV14, fliers, hordes, superheavies, etc. I don't want the game to be decided because someone didn't bring an answer to a unit, them or me.

However, I almost always bring one Riptide, cause it's my favorite model and it is a powerful unit. Whenever I mention this though, my opponents consider the cheese-gates opened. They all know Riptides are a good unit, they just don't know why other than the 1d4chan memes and Riptide wings, which I have never and will never bring.

This often leads to facing crap like the Kairos 2++ invulnerable rerollable deathstars, or genestealer cult ambush lists. How can I show them a riptide is not the coming of the apocalypse?

Are we going to help him as a 40k bro, or are we going to ignore him for being Tau?

You want to trick them or you actually don't know how to say:
>Hey guys I wont bring riptide tonight

Always knew that tau players are spergs.

>I almost always bring a Riptide
>but it's okay because Riptides aren't OP if you only take one
>r-r-really guys

I'm so tired of Taufags and this meme. Riptides are OP, full stop. It doesn't matter if you only have one. Even with zero Riptides, Tau is already stronger than an average, casual army from a crappy codex. What makes you think one Riptide added on top of that won't absolutely slaughter and win games single handedly due to its firepower and staying ability?

I've even seen people say Riptides are "weak" and "only good as punching bags" when their DEFAULT mode is either S6 HEAVY SIX!!! or S7 AP2 HEAVY THREE!!!. Like, hello? That kind of firepower is ridiculously good for something that will always be in range due to jetpacks and never have its weapons destroyed due to MC. Compare it to two Vindicators or something for equivalent points and see which is better.

>S6 HEAVY SIX!!!

S6 Heavy 8, even. AP4 to kill anything that's not marines, because Tau have plenty of plasma to kill the 3+ and 2+ save units which tend to be bad anyways like 35 point W1 T4 Terminators with 2+. The only good 2+ units are things like, surprise, surprise, Riptides.

Riptides are so ridiculous they can be taken in Kill Teams and can be spammed in 500, 750, and 1000 point games. KT specifically bans certain units just to prevent this kind of nonsense.

We usually play 1500 point games. Not to be combative, but are you saying that if you knew your opponent had one Riptide, you couldn't kill it?

I'm okay with losing, as it happens quite often, but this attitude really perplexes me in how angry it seems to make some players.

Name a way to kill a Riptide that doesn't involve

- Overpowered units
- Overpowered codexes
- List tailoring

Now for hard mode: do the same but with a bad, fluffy army like Black Templars or 100% chainsword vanilla marines.

You won't be able to.

>send 1500 points of your army to kill the Riptide over 3+ turns while the remaining 1300 points of Tau win the game

Sounds fair. There's a reason people call it a distraction Carnifex. The only difference is that the distraction is also something that you don't want to leave unchecked either, so damned if you do, damned if you don't. Pray you have enough MSU to feed it a squad a turn for the entire game.

>but this attitude really perplexes me in how angry it seems to make some players.

They're angry because clueless Taufags refuse to acknowledge how ridiculously broken and undercosted it is, as can be seen by your very own post. People even commonly say "Riptides aren't even OP anymore", which is technically true if you compare it to even more OP things, but what about the other 99% of the game that never got OP stuff at all, like Orks?

If you want them to stop bringing their A-game, stop bringing any kind of suits besides broadsides and replace them with Kroot and Vespids.

But you're not gonna do that because you're just another ass-sniffing Tau player who has absolutely no grasp on concepts like balance, so people will keep grav-dropping your well-frequented ass.

It's alright guys, he just likes the models. He should be able to play any army he wants to. But he doesn't want to lose, either.

Riptides cannot be used in killteams, it has an armory save of 2+. And it's now allowed in kill team

Maybe his opponents happen to like Wraith Knights or Kairos

Read the next sentence.

Are you implying HYMP Broadsides are worse than regular Stealth Suits? What's even funnier is that Kroot were auto-take in 6E championship lists and Vespids are the common Tau example of a "bad unit" but are actually an above average unit compared to other armies. It says a lot about the codex.

They aren't Riptide levels of broken.

Basically the entire Tau Codex needs to be redone, but then again, all the codices need to be redone, this time systematically.

Seems like sternguard with melta or grav guns could easily cripple a riptide without too much investment from the other player.

While that might be true, not every codex has access to Grav, and some might be have problems fielding meltaguns reiliably because range is an issue on those.
Let's talk about IG, or Tyranids, hell, even Orks, how is any of these supposed to bring down a SINGLE Riptide?
Not everybody plays marines

I feel you, OP. Riptides aren't OP at all, it's just that Imperialfags can't stand that we have a Terminator equivalent (TEQ).

If a Marine player brings Termies and nobody bats an eye, a Tau player should be able to bring a Riptide.

I don't play a ton of different armies so maybe all of these don't work, but Tempestus Scions have deep strike and can function a lot like sternguard with melta or plasma.

Perhaps a Flyrant with TL Devourer with Brain Leech Worms? S6, Assault 6, decent gun, can fight the Riptide in melee if it comes down and should beat it.

Orks, I dunno, bikers are certainly strong, but markerlights remove cover so they're not a good answer. Maybe the green tide to overwhelm their number of shots. Honestly not sure what Orks would do but honestly they're probably the codex I know least about.

It sounds like your shop is doing it right.

At my LGS if someone brings a Tau or Eldar army we have an unspoken rule they won't get games. If they try to ask for one oh look, I've got to go home. Or I've not brought the right figure case.

Of course we'll say this and then play other players at the store. If anyone complains we just ignore it, and the owner - whose idea it was - just says we're all adults and it's not his business.

Most of the time they work it out fast and either stop coming or change army.

Of course, he still sells the models and recommends new players with their Start Collecting Tau boxes come along to games night. It's funny stringing someone along

>hey user, I was recommended this Tau box by (store owner), want to teach me 40k?
>sorry, I've got a game, grab a soda and I'll teach you after

Repeat until closing time, FLGS gets to sell soda, tryhard faggot gets what he deserves.

>Chaos Contempor Dread is 195 points base with a heavy bolter, power fist, and a bolter
>Riptide is 180pts base with a heavy burst cannon, SMS, and free weapon swaps

Tell me when the riptide gets fair again?

>pissants nobody is ever going to want to play with

Play better and then kill yourself. Who in the fuck are you to drive out some rando just for packing an army that triggers your feels? it's like talking to fucking /r9k/ sometimes

Chaos Contemptor is 195 with two twin-linked heavy bolters. That's 6 shots at S 5 AP 4 with BS 4 and twin-linking.

Not going to pretend like the Riptide isn't undercosted, but if you think the only way to beat a Tau player who has a unit that costs at best 100 points less than it should is to spam cheese that competes with '500 free points' Gladius, then you've got bigger problems.

spotted the tau baby

If GW won't balance the game we sure as hell have to

Do you also decline games against Space Marine or Chaos Daemon players? Because those armies are doing a heck of a lot better than Tau right now.

add war convo to that list as well.
what store is this?
I want to show up with my d-99 list and fuck them all up for the lols now.

Actually, it's a TL HB, and a powerfist with a combi bolter that we can indeed turn into another TLHB. Then, we get to pay 40pts to give them rending. The best we can do is give it a pair of Butcher Canons for 50pts, which is nasty sure. Eight S8 Ap4 shots is very strong. However, it's on a 245pt walker body that can explode in one hit, unlike that 180pt T6 2+4++ body with 5 wounds and FNP

2+/5++
Can be upped to 3++ with nova.

That's disingenuous, a stimulant injector costs another 35 points on a Riptide for FNP.

Also what this guy said.

Have you actually seen TS being played? Me neither, know why? 16 pts/model+10/melta, max 2 melta, 3 if the troop is 10 models. to field enough melats to make a dent in the monstruosity that is a MC with 2+, a 3++ and a fucking FnP on top of that, and considering the BS... 8 meltas for 1 (ONE) wound/turn... that is approx...400 pts of scions that have to deep strike, survive that and still be in range. yeah, good fucking luck with that. Also, that's one wound and the lovely and totally non-OP riptide will smash them to bits in 1 turn, while standing with its 4 other wounds.

Now, I don't know too much about tyranids, but I'm pretty sure that weapon isn't AP2 , and I'm also pretty sure that without AP2 piercing a Riptide is a nightmare, the only weapon that is Ap2, instakill and absolutely wrecks everything Riptide included is melee and good luck getting in melee with a jet MC.

the riptide can be balanced.
how's this?
base cost 200 points
ion accelerator: 20 points
vectored retro thrusters:15 points
Cannot use same nova reactor result two turns in a row.

>40 points for Rending

Why?

Also, it's only a 5++ on the tide, and getting that FnP is another 35 points on top of that.

The Contemptor also isn't that bad off there either, as it has a 4++ against glancing hits and a 6+ against pens.

This isn't as cut and dry as you're pretending it is. A Riptide with a heavy burst cannon has some big advantages in mobility and survivability, but this isn't a massive gulf in point cost.

BS 4 with twin-linked is far more accurate than BS 3, even at 1 less strength with the same number of shots. The Riptide has more wounds, but Novacharging to try and boost its invuln or get rending will chew through that advantage. A Riptide, especially without FNP, is really going to have to fear massed Plasma, the same way a Contemptor does massed Melta.

Is the Riptide undercosted? Sure. Does that mean your opponent putting one down with a Heavy Burst cannon and no support systems warrants bringing out a tournament spam list? Not really.

Pretty sure the Riptide already can't take Vectored Retro. Also, just go with that, but add that Nova charging shields only brings it to a 4+ invuln and FNP can't prevent wounds from a Nova charge.

I think that fixes most of it.

You ever even do the math on that? 5 Sternguard with combis and a pod is already more points than the Riptide and don't even auto kill it.

I would like it to take vrts, makes the shielded missile drones worth a damn otherwise they just fuck around uselessly.
but yeah only a 4++ and FNP can't save nova wounds and it's good.

>Perhaps a Flyrant with TL Devourer with Brain Leech Worms? S6, Assault 6, decent gun, can fight the Riptide in melee if it comes down and should beat it.

>Riptides are fine! Just use the most OP unit in the Tyranid codex that's capable of carrying an entire shitty faction single handedly to fight the Riptides! See? Easy!

>Sure. Does that mean your opponent putting one down with a Heavy Burst cannon and no support systems warrants bringing out a tournament spam list? Not really.

It is important to make it clear that Tau players are not welcome in the hobby.

>defending tau this hard

6+ against pens is worthless

both out in the open, riptide eats 8 plasma shots 6 wound it, 2 are saved. Guess who's still alive?

Vehicle of almost any kind eats 4 meltas and dies

I'd remove FnP from the model entirely, otherwise the only reliable way to bring one down is to spam D weapons, and that is almost as cheesy as a Riptide iteslf

Tau just surpassed Space Marines for total top ITC results.

Be glad you even get games as Tau.

Close faggot. I don't play at all, nothing in my area and neetbux wont support 40k. But please, explain your moral high ground of bullying others and a piece of shit who'll sell shit to new players only to fuck them over in the long term?

Get better. Beat the riptide, force the tau player to adapt. I understand that's hard for an autistic fuckwheel like you. But you'll be a better person for it- and you need it

Also, it should be noted that at least most Eldar players are aware of how retarded their rules are. Tau are all in denial

>we not OP! We swear!

Go find some eldar/tzeentch players to whine to instead.

Perhaps simply removing the option for Stim injectors on the Riptide and removing the option to even boost the shields would be good. Then the only way to mitigate damage would be to actually buy drones to bodyguard for it.

You call this hard? I'm just pointing out how you feel the need to lie about point costs and cherrypick your argument in order to make the Riptide seem even more undercosted or overpowered than it is.

Even in the example you gave, the Riptide who eats 8 plasma shots like that is dead if it had failed a Novacharge earlier.

Remove stim injectors, nova, and bump them to at least the cost of a land raider and we'll consider letting you watch as we play without you

Below is the current breakdown of what armies are winning events. The list combines all the top events for the year so far, taking only the top three winners from Major or GT events.

42 Eldar
22 Daemon
18 Tau Empire
14 Space Marine
11 Dark Angels
10 Chaos Space Marines & Renegades
6 Ad-Mech
6 Genestealer Cults
5 Imperial Knight
4 Astra Militarum
4 Space Wolves
3 Dark Eldar
3 Dark Eldar
3 Necrons
2 Tyranid
1 Harlequin
1 Grey Knight
1 Blood Angel
1 Ork

>t-this model is dead if it took a wound earlier in the game AND eats 8 plasma shots!
>it's totally balanced guys!

let me know when that plasma shot can remove it from the table

Riptides are cheese though. I play Tau and I admit this. SO here's the reality. Put your riptide down and be glad that someone is stepping up to challenge, or don't put the riptide down and play a casual fun game. The only third option is wanting to bring your OP unit without enemies bringing OP units of their own. Because you want to ROFLstomp the enemy without breaking a sweat. Maybe you get fun out of that sort of catharsis and that's fine, but consider the other player in this equation and how little fun they're having when you have a unit that is not only obscenely strong for it's points, but also has mobility that a lot of deathstars wish they had.

>well-frequented ass

underrated

Kek
Do you still not play against tau even if they only run kroot, with the old kroot hq? And maybe some vespids on top for the lol
Also, what would happen if two guys came to have a game (prearranged) and one of them was a tau player?

Ghostkeels are cool (outside of OSC) if you want a big intimidating suit, and they're not too overpowered (at least nowhere near Riptides)

Are they ok in targeted reconnaissance cadre?

>But please, explain your moral high ground of bullying others and a piece of shit who'll sell shit to new players only to fuck them over in the long term?

A shop sells what it likes during business hours, a private games night hosted on private property can be run however the host likes.

Nobody is obliged to play against unsporting players. The only way to teach good behaviour is by positive reinforcement.

so playing a faction they like is unsporting?

Let me know when you want to bring back those goalposts

Do you realize how many points it costs to shoot the amount of plasma it takes to get 8 unsaved wounds?

>Unsporting

You mean like refusing to actually give someone a chance to ever compete by refusing to even let them learn the game?

>refusing to allow someone to bully you is bullying

Lol what. Nobody has to play anyone. If they all want to boycott Tau players that's their right. Taufags really think they're ENTITLED to play whoever they want? If I were an SJW that would be called rape.

I hadn't even looked at that formation until today but it doesn't seem overpowered, I feel like the broadside and the pathfinders gain a lot more from that rule than the ghostkeel.

I thought Tau players were the one who thought not killing something in one turn was pointless?

Yes, playing Tau is unsporting. Just because you like unsportsmanlike stuff doesn't somehow magically make it sportsmanly. Your feelings have nothing to do with whether or not something is sporting. Just because a murderer enjoys murder doesn't make it legal and his murder victims the inconsiderate ones.

>Kek
>Do you still not play against tau even if they only run kroot, with the old kroot hq? And maybe some vespids on top for the lol
If that's what it takes for a tau player to admit they're hyper cheesy, then yes

>Also, what would happen if two guys came to have a game (prearranged) and one of them was a tau player?

Ignore them? If they offer to play a game, then politely refuse

>Let me know when you want to bring back those goalposts

I'm talking about how ridiculously undercosted they are, especially compared to shit that can die in a single fucking shot, unlike you're T6 5W 2+ 5++ pile of shit

>Actually trying to win /40kg/ bingo.

>not killing the Riptide in one turn

A Riptide with even a single wound left is still operating at 100% efficiency. It doesn't get immobilized, its weapons don't get destroyed, it doesn't take AoS style damage.

>Your feelings have nothing to do with whether or not something is sporting.

But yours do. Glad we settled that.

Is your BS 1? because you missed the point, mate. The point is that to bring down a Riptide, just like you said, you don't need a CREED-like tactical genius, nor incredible plans.
No, you need more cheese, and that forces the Tau to bring even more cheese to the table, until the whole shop is a fucking cheese-central where eldar scatterbike-spam is considered weak, and where you'd have to constantly bring the cheesiest lists known to man, totally killing any fun you can possibly have in this game.
That is the reason why I personally hate the Riptide.
Also, it's ugly as shit

>I'm talking about how ridiculously undercosted they are

And I'm pointing out how it isn't quite as ridiculous as you're hyping it up to be. I don't even bother with Riptides for my Tau army because people just spout memes about how a Riptide would only be fair if it cost 2000 points and required you to give your opponent a blowjob to field it.

>Riptide gets hit with a lucky roll and murders the shooter the following phase

>walker gets hit with a lucky roll and loses it's weapon, gets permanently immobilized, loses a turn, or FUCKING DIES

one of these costs more than the other

Why aren't riptides vehicles anyway? I mean dreadnoughts are like an extension of the space marine's body right? He moves the dreadnoughts limb reflexively as thought it was his own, and yet they're vehicles, but riptides and other suits are piloted, and yet they get MC status? wtf GW? I play Tau and SM and I'm pissed off at both of these things.

>Riptides area always Ap2 in combat
>Dreadnoughts have to have a destroyable weapon

No, mine don't. Tau are unsporting regardless of either of our opinions.

It's literally just a holdover from smaller battlesuits being made infantry in a time when being a vehicle wasn't a liability.

Riptides should cost 250 bare minimum for all the shit they get combined with being more durable than a Land Raider

>Tau are so OP I don't even use the Riptide

Thanks for proving everyones' point.

Am I the only one that sees selling things that you know are unsupported,and actively scorned as a complete fucking disk move and money grab?
Like srsly you recommend a new player the starter box knowing that if they really want to keep in the hobby they will have to buy a new army is shit

>Memes XD

And thanks for proving mine

Your point was garbage, so no problem.

I don't even play this game, but jeez that's both autistic and rude.

Cool. So all your complaining about Riptides being overcosted, factoring in the fact that you're probably thinking about them with Stim Injectors, amounts to a grand difference of about 50 points.

Yeah man, fuck those fucking Tau, getting 50 more points in their list than they deserve!

>Puts 10 free razorbacks on the table

He didn't recommend they play Tau, get some reading comprehension.

>Of course, he still sells the models and recommends new players with their Start Collecting Tau boxes come along to games night. It's funny stringing someone along

>OF COURSE HE STILL SELLS TAU MODELS TO TAU PLAYERS
>AND RECOMMENDS NEW TAU PLAYERS WHO OWN THE START COLLECTING SET TO COME PLAY

>He thinks Tau are OP
>Therefore he can't also think that Space Marines are OP
Not him but... seriously? That's the logic you're going with?

>implying any of the winning BC lists take RBs

35x6 = 210
50x5 = 250

5 Riptide list (which is an actual thing) gets more free points in addition to not having a useless codex and army full of 14 point chumps.

Except in real life, most people don't unconditionally refuse to play Tau, and not all Tau players use six riptides.

Get your head out of the Veeky Forums hyperbole for a few days and go play some actual 40k.

No, without stimm injectors. I'm talking a flat 180pt riptide puts out more damage than a land raider while being more durable. Guess what? Even at 250pts, Riptides would be taken and Land Raiders won't.

>Nobody is obliged to play against unsporting players
>New player is recommended by the owner these armies that nobody ever plays against
>Their being unsporting for not being privvy to your hazing bullshit.
Grow the fuck up. It'd be one thing if you actually explained to new players how things work around there, but to just lead people on, let them spend money on shit and then refuse to play with them because
>lol we tricked you into buying an overpowered army
Is literally, literally the most autistic thing I've ever seen on this board.

Seeing as how some people are refusing to play Tau or Eldar on principle but don't say the same with Space marines (probably because they play them), I'd say it's a fair point.

That's the entire point of this thread. One dude bringing a Riptide, especially at a reasonable points level, is not the end of the fucking world. If 50 extra points would make it fair in your eyes, then it clearly doesn't deserve the response it's been getting, at least not in the case of one.

Spamming wings? Sure, but I don't think anyone here has really been referring to that.

I'll bet you'd totally be willing to garnish your paycheck to support the Tau newbies though right? Because you're so sporting and charitable.

Cool. Hope that extra tactical squad helps you out man.

You assume all MEQ players are running Battle Company.

You assume the vast majority of Tau players don't run cheese.

You're wrong on both counts. Rethink your argument with that knowledge and see why this is such a common discussion.

>sporting and charitable

That would be the words I would use to describe someone willing to play against some new player who picked a random army, rather than refusing games over autistic rage.

So you're saying that even at 250pts Riptides are undercosted?

The difference between Tau and the other cheese kings is that nobody even pretends Gladius or Tzeentch summon spam is balanced, and nobody actually expects to get games with those armies.

>tfw I have no issue playing against my local Tau player with my pure Skitarii list
Granted he doesn't spam Riptides

Honestly ask yourself how many of these players (and I'm really going out on a limb assuming all these people actually play) but how many of them do you ACTUALLY think refuse all Tau players on principle? They're just taking out their aggression in the popular Veeky Forums manner and trying to fill out their bingo cards. I'm telling you real life isn't like this.

You suggested it, not me. Apparently that extra 70 points is really important to you though. Such an insurmountable difference could surely be overcome by spamming undercosted cheese of your own like OP suggests.

You keep talking but you still haven't put your money where your mouth is.

If somebody wants to start a cheddar arms race the only polite thing to do is oblige. The Tau player can always do what non-Tau players have been doing for generations: play at a disadvantage or not play.