/osrg/ OSR General - Times Best Sellers Edition

>Think like a theme park. Adventureland and Tomorrowland are different themes but clearly Disney.

This, try to keep things changed up in feeling between the different sections. Also, warring factions within a dungeon never get old.

Tips:
1) Avoid "that", and especially "the fact that". They work as speed bumps in a sentence and encourage sloppy writing. Sometimes you need it (No, it's >that< thingy over >there

So....I started playing AD&D last week. Holy shit does it suck. I know this is OSR central but I like OSR games, I just hate AD&D. First off, the sheer number of dumb-ass crap modifiers I had to write down everywhere, were just annoying. THAC0 is absolute wank. It is completely backwards, I don't know how Gary Gygax continued to make editions of AD&D without figuring this out. It's like inventing a back-wheel-steering motorcycle over and over, and not realizing how fucking retarded it is. First off it means you need to know a monster's AC to attack it, completely ruining the mystery of the creature's stats. The rulebook is written in legalese and I had to re-read a section 2 to 3 times to understand what the fuck it was saying and make sure I wasn't confusing what I was reading with some other part. Also no one in my group has any fucking clue where the ranged weapon damages are written down in the Player's Handbook, which is actually well-organized even if the writing is abominable. Wizards are weak as hell, and now I understand caster supremacy in 3.5... the game was written by butthurt wizardfags who were sick of being second-rate citizens. Gary Gygax had a full hard-on for fighters because he wished he could be one instead of a fat-ass. Fuck him. Are there any games that have the good aspects of OSR (simplicity, rolling for hit points, low damage, lack of feats / skills, high-lethality, rolling for stats with stats not being the end-all-be-all of your character and more a soft determination of who they are) without these stupid fucking 1950s war game rules that are written in lawyer-speak?

Have you tried AD&D 2e?

If THAC0 is in the book, he's using 2e.

>Are there any games that have the good aspects of OSR (simplicity, rolling for hit points, low damage, lack of feats / skills, high-lethality, rolling for stats with stats not being the end-all-be-all of your character and more a soft determination of who they are) without these stupid fucking 1950s war game rules that are written in lawyer-speak?
...B/X and a bunch of retroclones? How do you know what OSR is but don't know the OSR games that exist?

Other than that, I agree that AD&D is a pretty big mess. The most use I've personally found from AD&D is scouring the DMG for ideas. It's is definitely allowed to be discussed in these generals but I don't think you'll find that many anons interested in discussing it.

Except b/x is even worse. Half the rules are in chainmail and daggers are the best weapon to use because everything does the same fucking damage. Also ability scores are completely meaningless except as XP gain, the books are horridly formatted. Even moldvay basic just sucks ass. I liked Lamentations of the Flame Princess up until I read the race-as-class shit was in there and I dropped it like hot coals.

It's generic advice, but it's good advice. Thanks.

Alright, but you could always just remove the demihumans if you don't like them. I'm pretty sure even the creator, Raggi, does that in his home games. If you want race-and-class, you could always check out Basic Fantasy RPG.

I think THACO is absolutely fine and AD&D is great because you don't have like 100 modifiers to remember. The way for your players to work out if they hit something is to deduct their THAC0 from their d20 roll. Example, say I am a player and we're fighting a bunch of orcs. My turn comes up I roll 15 on d20 roll I minus that with my THAC0 (which is 20) I get 5 meaning now I know I can hit AC 5 or better. It's simple.

Pft who even plays a single-class human wizard? You either play an elf fighter/mage or you hit level 5 or 10 and jump into wizard.

No, not OD&D, Basic. Dude, please review pic related.

that looks like a good game, thanks. forgot i had that pdf.

>I think THACO is absolutely fine and AD&D is great because you don't have like 100 modifiers to remember.

Except you have that in 5e as well.

Does anyone have/ know where I can find hackmaster pdfs?

D-Did you... not read his post?
>which is actually well-organized
>even if the writing is abominable.

I think he's trying to bait us. THAC0's not in the 1e book, but Gygax has nothing to do with 2e; "half the rules" of B/X are not in Chainmail -- B/X is complete in and of itself, OD&D has the option of using Chainmail, but does not require it.
The guy's complaints are all over the place.

I kinda spaced out because of the all the buzzwords and bad formatting.

>Wizards are weak as hell, and now I understand caster supremacy in 3.5...
>Gary Gygax had a full hard-on for fighters because he wished he could be one instead of a fat-ass.
Surprisingly accurate. youtu.be/7UjXi1HKjms

Sounds more like he doesn't know what he's talking about.
At least he seems interested in learning?

You're talking about LBB, but whatever.
>Half the rules are in chainmail
Pic related is in CHAINMAIL. Also like 3 paragraphs on morale rules. That's it. The rest is in the LBBs.

And needing a separate game for some rules was even semi-excusable at the time.
D&D was originally intended as a CHAINMAIL supplement, to expand CHAINMAIL campaigns.
Where most session in the campaign were for CHAINMAIL.

>and daggers are the best weapon to use
Two-handed Swords are the best weapon, actually.
>because everything does the same fucking damage.
Everything does the same damage because some things make more strikes in a single minute (a combat round).
Because certain weapons hit more often, weapons deal different 'average damage'.

>Also ability scores are completely meaningless except as XP gain
Strength is Fighting-Man aptitude (stronger dudes hit harder even with less training).
Intelligence is Magic-User aptitude (smarter dudes learn more even with less to work with).
Wisdom (Cleric aptitude) has a last minute write-up* because Clerics were a last minute addition.
*Wisdom rating will act much as does that for intelligence.
Dexterity, Constitution, and Charisma actually do things.

>up until I read the race-as-class shit was in there and I dropped it like hot coals.
Race-as-class is something of a sacred cow, but it made sense initially.
Every race had a class (Fighting-Man for Man). Magic-Users were psuedo-Human. Contemporary MUs were...
Uh, Merlin (half-devil who lives backwards in time), Gandalf (not!Angel), and like 50 demi-gods from various mythoi.

It got silly when Clerics were added at the last minute.
If you're doing multiple archetypes for a race, you should do multiple archetypes fro several races,
maybe something like: Fighting-Man, Magic-Man, Templar-Man, Scout-Elf, Sorcerer-Elf, Fighting-Dwarf, Scout-Hobbit, Thief-Hobbit.
But there is such a thing as a 'stereotypical Elf.' Codifying races into archetypes isn't a bad thing.

Halflings level cap at 8 is too low, what should be the max level for halflings? 10, 11, 12 or 13? Remember human classes caps at 14

8 is fine. If you *really* want them to get a Stronghold, give them Name Level benefits at 8.

>If you *really* want them to get a Stronghold, give them Name Level benefits at 8
No, strongholds are a level 9 thing, my autism cant let them get one level earlier.

I'll take your answer as a 9, but I really think they should at least go to 10th level

>I'll take your answer as a 9,
Fine, but little guys cap at 8 HD.

>Fine, but little guys cap at 8 HD.
Of course not, every class caps at 9 HD, no exception.

Abolish level caps entirely.

Mystics get 16 HD.

>Abolish level caps entirely.
There always should be a max level, I dont want characters to get to immortal level

First
>B/X master race

Second, mystics have 9 HD in the RC

And they had 16 HD in BECMI.

Wrong image, sorry.

I mean for demihumans. Capping off level at some point is just good sense.

I get that they're part of the "experience" of old school games, and they're a mechanism for explaining how demi-humans don't take over the world, but they were a half-cocked idea from the get go, and they commit that worst of sins of making experience and level actual world features rather than game mechanics that can be ignored in the background.

I think caps are fine, as I dont want elves to be full fighters and wizards, or dwarves to be just fighters but better

Well then knock yourself out man. I just think it would be the most effective way to answer your problem with halflings.

>I don't want elves to be full fighters and wizards

Up their experience requirements at late levels when the differences become glaring.

>fighters but better

Make fighters better.

Been playing LotFP and DCC the past few years. Considering going back to basics (literally B/X) for my next campaign. Run it by the book and play through tsr modules of the era.

Is it worthwhile to do so? Or are the modern updates from retroclones necessary fixes to old problems?

>to old problems?
To what?

Personally, I think that demihuman experience progression should be adjusted so that they are more level with humans, and then an XP cap should be put in place (under a million works pretty well, in my opinion--meaning 999,999 would be the cap). That way, classes that are balanced by more quickly gaining levels don't get screwed in the end by being limited to the same level as all the other classes. But if you're keeping everything else the same, I guess I probably cap halflings at 12 or 13--somewhere a bit lower than fighters and equal to or slightly above dwarves. It doesn't need to be perfect, especially not as thieves are effectively capped at the same level as wizards.

While I generally think that caps are a stupid idea, the caps for dwarves and elves are about right in B/X, assuming you using the de facto cap of 14th level for human classes. If there's a problem, it's that dwarves and elves reach their caps too quickly.

>Make fighters better.
What if we add feats for fighters?

>Personally, I think that demihuman experience progression should be adjusted so that they are more level with humans
When I say "more level with humans" I mean "more balanced in terms of power", which actually means being more off in terms of their actual level. Slow demihuman progression a bit, basically.

that's what old mate is asking
he doesn't know if there are specific problems, but wants to find out before they become a problem in game.

>I think that demihuman experience progression should be adjusted so that they are more level with humans,
I didn't understand

>and then an XP cap should be put in place (under a million works pretty well, in my opinion--meaning 999,999 would be the cap
Great idea

>Capping off level at some point is just good sense.

If you cap level at all then you need to recognize that the reason some characters progress faster than others is that a level has varying value based on what class you have, which means that more powerful classes should stop levelling sooner, while weaker ones should be able to level up higher to match them. All classes at cap should be roughly equal in power. Except halflings because fuck them hairy-footed hillbillies, mirite? J/K

Those of you who run LotFP, do you ever let non-specialists increase skills?
I'm thinking of a few, rare NPC trainers who can give the PCs an upgrade, maybe capping it at 3/6 (for non-specialists) in exchange for a whole lot of gold and time.

>do you ever let non-specialists increase skills?
As treasure. Find a rare book on the subject, spend a month of downtime (or a few months of background time), presto!
No more than +1-in-6 per skill per character.

The book doesn't magically disappear, but only one character gets to use it.
There's no in-game reason for that. Additional readers just don't 'get' it.

I replaced the d6 skill system with a d12 one that adds ability modifiers to it's respective stat. I prefer it more.

I have various houserules that allow non-specialist classes to gain a skill point to one skill at level-up (amongst other options).

I don't recall if it is stated in the official rules, but I also rule that any character who has a plausible reason for being good at a skill (like their former profession before they started adventuring) then they would be automatically at 2-in-6. Further modified by any applicable ability score modifiers and situational modifiers.

What this guy said:
It's been like, 20 years since I played straight up B/X, but I started re-reading the books recently. I'm seeing some stuff that I think I'd immediately houserule. But once you start doing that, it is hard to stop and then you're not playing B/X anymore.

It defeats the purpose of trying to go back to the roots. But then again, I don't want to run into a seriously un-fun roadblock of a rule. Or at least know if its coming up so I can plan around it.

I dunno. What I'm basically asking is if it still holds up on its own, or if the clones benefit substantially from decades of hindsight and craft.

Having played it that way not too long ago, B/X works quite well straight out of the box with no adjustments. Use the saving throws from X, though, they're strictly better than the earlier B ones, which don't improve as you level.

>Is it worthwhile to do so?
Well, it's an interesting experience. Especially if you do so as an educational opportunity, and run it without preconceptions of what the game is "supposed" to be - just using/riffing off of the books in hand. I really do suggest that you get B1 if you're going to run Holmes/Bluebox, though, since it has some of the actual rules inside the module.

I find a bunch of the newer stuff helpful, especially the formalized rules for encumbrance and retainers in LotFP and the slightly easier math for my numerically-dyslexic player. But it is in no way necessary to play, because God knows I did it with just the blue-book, B1, B2, and (three years later) a copy of the 1e MM and the Expert rules. Holmes is a clean, tight ruleset that's quite well-organized, and I personally prefer it. Mentzer/Moldvay/Cook all twiddle it a bit - but really any one of them is okay for pick-up-and-go gaming.

>Those of you who run LotFP, do you ever let non-specialists increase skills?
I give all classes a "class skill" that levels like a Dwarf's Architecture skill. They can swap it out for another at DM discretion (basically, just tell me something that would justify it and we're good). Skill points can also crop up as a "treasure" during an adventure. That might come in the form of books, trainers/mentors, devices (like a special puzzle-box that boosts your Tinkering to 3 if yours is lower and you play with it for a month), or as magical buffs (along the lines of the classic "eat a fruit, gain an Attribute point" tree). General theme is that you need to spend a significant chunk of out-of-game time working on it or risk nasty things happening to you. Just like a lot of other things, really.

The major RC of B/X (Moldvay) is Labyrinth Lord and it differs only very slightly (someone post the info graph) and mostly in ways I think are either negligible, or I think are not, and all in a way that I find detrimental so I 'houserule' them back to B/X (e.g. Clerics getting spells on first level rather than second).

It's playable straight out of the box, the only reason I play LL instead of B/X is because I could obtain a physical copy much easier. OD&D might need S&W White Box or Delving Deeper to be ready to play, but B/X is perfectly usable and well organized as it is.

Though it's also the usual base on which not-retroclone OSR games are based off of, like LoFTP, if you want something that interprets it in a fresh light.

>I didn't understand
But you do now? -->

>XP cap should be put in place [...] 999,999 would be the cap
You, sir, have no class. At least use a power of 2.

An XP cap of under a million effectively gives the following maximum levels...

cleric 16
fighter 15
magic-user 13
thief 15
dwarf 14 (13 by alternate XP rules )
elf 11
halfling 15

If you wanted to cap things at slightly sooner, a cap of under 900,000 XP would give you...
cleric 15
fighter 14
magic-user 12
thief 15
dwarf 13 (12 by alternate XP rules)
elf 11 (10 by alternate XP rules)
halfling 14

Personally, I like the max levels for under 900k XP a bit better, but "under 900k XP" is less elegant than "under a million XP."

>Personally, I like the max levels for under 900k XP a bit better, but "under 900k XP" is less elegant than "under a million XP."
I suppose you could do a max of 888,888, which would give you the same results.

You could also change the xp tables to play nicer with your cap.

>What piece of fiction is most like the games you play?
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

No idea how to make it work w/ OSR though.

Oh snap! Misread that question as "would you most like to play"

Too low? If it was much higher they'd need a ladder to reach it.

What are people's thoughts on Beyond the Wall? I was leaning towards The Black Hack for my new players, but honestly this looks pretty awesome.

I think it has a pretty neat character and campaign creation system, but I personally am not looking for a story-heavy and character-developing game right now. I think that be the case with many other anons in these threads. I don't think I've ever seen anyone put in effort into critiquing it.

Please
I have no money

Have you tried the PDF share thread?

Question about hit dice:

They say you get a new hit die and roll them to add HP every time you level up.

There are a few ways I could interpret that, I'd like you to set me straight as to what that means.

1. Start with d10, roll it for 8 hp. Level up, get another d10, roll it and add whatever I get to 8. so 8+6, for instance.

2. Start with d10, roll 8. Level up, get another hit dice. Roll both hit dice, get whatever number I rolled as my new HP. Ie 4 on one die, 6 on another for 10 HP.

3. Roll d10, get 8 hp. Level up, roll two hit dice, get 12, add it to 8 hp to get 20 hp. Next level, roll 3d10 to get more HP to add.

3 is the most direct interpretation I can think of, but it seems like It would cause MASSIVE hp gain even after a few levels. I mean, if a sword does d6 damage or whatever, and at level 4 you have like 55 HP, that seems like it would last forever.

What movies are "Appendix N" material?

The way I've always seen it played is as option 1. You roll each HD as you get it and then it's value is fixed.

1 is the general way of doing it.

I've also seen 2 being done, but with the addition that you only keep the higher number. So if you had 10 max hp but only roll 8, you still have 10 max hp.

It's ambiguous between 1&2, but the VAST MAJORITY of people do No.1.
No.3 is right out.

Other common options are:
• Reroll everything every level, keep your old total if it was higher
• Reroll everything every adventure (session), take what you roll

Ralph Bakshi's Wizards is a good candidate

Conan the Barbarian is a piece of garbageaccording to Gygax in Dragon Magazine

Conan the Barbarian
Heavy Metal
Labyrinth
Hammer Horror films
Mazes & Monsters

Maybe not exactly Appendix N, but check out Brotherhood of the Wolf, and a little indie horror film called "As Above, So Below."

Gygax wanted a real Conan movie, and got a Hollywood Conan movie instead. I understand his nerd rage, but it's still a good movie IMO, and is probably the best Conan we'll ever get.

definitely

I'm kinda torn on it. It's not really Conan as depicted by Robert E. Howard, but it's a great Sword and Sorcery movie and Arnie is fucking sick so I guess I actually just love it.

Tricky. Most movies that match thematically are just really fucking bad films.

Conan & Excalibur (1981) are my go to when it comes to films.

I still think Monty Python & The Holy Grail is the best representative of an actual game though.

Gygax wanted a DND movie as well. He thought it would do for fantasy what Star wars did for scifi.

A script was written, and he approved it. He even sang it's praises. Obviously it never got made due to TSR having money issues. Anyway, the script still exists. It's such hot garbage it's actually hard to explain how bad it is.

Let's just say Gygax's opinions on films belongs in the trash.

>Merlin (half-devil who lives backwards in time)
Just FTR, that backwards-in-time thing was invented by TH White, it's not in any other version of the story. I realize it was a popular version at the time OD&D was written, but sperg gotta sperg.

>Brotherhood of the Wolf
My blood brother.

Dark Crystal for strange post apocalyptic fantasy quest with cockroachmen and really well made puppets.
7 Samurai for building a party to defend the village, fighting 300 bandits and almost tpk
The bbc Gormenghast miniseries for sprawling insane cities and inbred nobility, sort of like vornhiem and bits of yoon-suin.
If you can handle it, On The Silver Globe for gonzo soviet planetary romance.

>Brotherhood of the Wolf
Honestly, probably the best rendition of "a really good adventure/campaign" I've ever seen although ironically, it's less like OSR and more like story/scenario based gameplay. But almost everything about the way the main guys behave is very RPGish. Also it's a fucking good film, of course.

The Beastmaster is pretty good. I mean, it's grade B, but it's still pretty good. Just the first one though. The second is an abomination and the third... well, I don't remember it that well, but I think it's just grade B without the good part.

Oh yeah, I loved that movie, schlocky but fun. Trivia: It's kind of a loose adaptation of an old Andre Norton novel, though it must have gone for a serious run through the Hollywood rewrite machine -- it was a sci-fi story on another planet; the protagonist was a native american with a psi connection to his specially bred animals, who were different (more American) species, and there was a ton of other stuff that was different, though you can still recognize some bits in it.
I guesswith the big sword and sorcery boom after Conan came out, they reworked the whole thing to be more fantasy-themed.

Anyone here a fan of the Haunted Halls of Eveningstar or is it hated around here because Ed Greenwood = muh magical realm? Was first adventure ran as DM and at only 32 pages it's always bugged me, especially since it was 96 pages and Lorraine Williams cut it down for no reason.

So I always look for things that missed it. Anyone ever seen the shadevar monster? Big boss of a nearby area. The other big boss is mentioned in the FRQ1 itself, a nabassu in another area. Well, a third is a deepspawn.

But then there's this thing. Noticed it today, having originally come in a low-circulation (online) issue of Polyhedron. A real deal Eric L. Boyd monster. Found this from the place where the guy is posting cleaned sheets.

is there something like non dnd osr? like wod osr?

Gygax is pure kino. You just can't understand. It was gonna be great. Apologize.

Is it true what the guy a few threads back said? That Gygax did nothing but blow cocaine when he "went Hollywood" and that's what destroyed TSR? (the first time)

Been a while since I've watched this:
youtube.com/watch?v=oSynJyq2RRo
It's riffing 3e, IIRC? still great tho

But, uh...
>I still think Monty Python & The Holy Grail is the best representative of an actual game though.
I'm going to have to disagree with you on that.

Not really, it's kind of a weird creation of WotC. They changed D&D significantly enough that the old playstyle was no longer workable under the new rules, and people wanted to come up with a way to publish new stuff for those old rules, and presto, OSR.
Most other systems have maintained a consistent style since their inception, and the few that haven't generally don't have an OGL that lets people fork the rules and recreate the olden days.

Traveller kind of has something similar with the Cepheus Engine, a clone of Mongoose 1e with some Classic bits.

IIRC, there was a power struggle between the director and the producer. The director wanted a more serious, deeper movie, while the producer wanted more lighthearted, cheesy fun. The director left after the first movie and claims that the second movie shows what the producer was aiming for. Given that, it's hard not to side with the director.

>I still think Monty Python & The Holy Grail is the best representative of an actual game though.
I weep for you.

What new shit in the OSR has got you excited? For me, Driftwood Verses looks badass.