If I wanted a system where

im 83% positive that i walked into this thread because of that picture

Are you measuring room temperature in kelvin or some shit?

4e. I'm not being sarcastic, ignore detractors and play it without constantly bitching about how you don't like that it reminds you mechanically of a computer game. There are like zero rules for roleplay, which means with a good roleplay group you actually end up with interesting stories.

>>Swordfighting is actually interesting
I would assume he means it is more in depth than "I attack with my sword."

Fantasy Craft has all of those things.

>Homebrewing custom races for the setting isn't a total crap shoot
All the races in FC were designed from the outset according to a point-build system, which has been reverse-engineered by the fans and used extensively for homebrew.

>Swordfighting is actually interesting
LOADS of different ways to build a martial, and options to use in combat. Each kind of weapon has its own distinct fighting style due to the weapon-specific feat chains, and special maneuvers like tripping and feinting don't require you to blow half your character resources just to be competent with them. And the action economy is revamped to give you more tactical flexibility. It's vastly more interesting than just sitting there full attacking.

>Players have magic items, but not spell slinging
Spell slinging is an option in the system, but it functions just fine without it, and you can have magic items without spellcasting. Magic items are pretty rare and precious by default, but if you want them to be more common that's definitely an option.

>Dynamic monster fighting
See above re: combat options.

D&D 4e is horseshit, it's overly built toward combat and the combat really isn't that fun, the focus is on "interesting" consequences to attacks but most of them are just obnoxious extra bookkeeping for the DM that, mixed with the doubling of hit points, makes for slower dragged out combat.

GURPS is similarly crap but less so.

Except Pathfinder is also shit.

Are you measuring in celsius? It's irrelevant to your lack of argument either way, so feel free to continue the pointless diversion from how wrong you are.

What is your problems with GURPS when meeting OP's qualifications?

>teaching a friend GURPS
>he wants to play a high-powered fantasy game, so he makes a 400-point sword wizard
>puts one point in a bunch of spells just to meet prerequisites for "the good ones"
>constantly talks about how powerful his character is
>tell him a wimpy 100-point adventurer with a staff could kick his shit in
>he doesn't believe me
>set up a duel between his dude and an old character of mine
>I get the drop since he didn't buy up Basic Speed
>rush in with an All-Out Determined attack to his groin and smack him in the nuts
>he's got -8 shock so he can't do much
>he still thinks he's hot shit and tries to light my clothes on fire
>fails of course, wasting FP
>I know that if I let him get an attack off, I'm dead. His sword will pretty quickly break my staff, and if he puts enough FP into a spell I'm toast. I have to All-Out Attack because I'm dead either way
>his Dodge is pretty high and I got lucky on that first attack
>I decide to try an All-Out Double Attack
>Throw the first one as a Feint, which passes. Second attack he gets smacked in the arm, breaking it.
>he's got -4 shock, but is now pissed. Tries All-Out Defense at my suggestion.
>I AOD
>he finally has a turn
>wants to blast me, but throws a fit when I point out his most proficient spell would hit him at this range
>creates a wall of fire between us
>I vault over it
>he keeps doing this until he's at 1FP
>finally just shove him into the fire and he burns to death

All told took maybe 5 minutes. Once you learn GURPS, it's really quick and has the most detailed combat of any mainstream system.

>>I vault over it
>>he keeps doing this until he's at 1FP
>>finally just shove him into the fire and he burns to death
What a great way to deal with caster supremacy

>4e combat isn't fun
I disagree, I find it to be the most fun out of any edition, just particularly game-y.

>overly built toward combat
It's just not built for roleplaying at all. That's actually a good thing if you play with people who are really solid roleplayers. With most people the lack of rules leads to dumb bullshit and murdohobory. I straight up play FATE: CORE using 4e for combat only.

>>Homebrewing custom races for the setting isn't a total crap shoot
DnD4e
>>Swordfighting is actually interesting
DnD4e
>>Players have magic items, but not spell slinging
DnD4e, by revamping item powers (daily->encounter, encounter->at-will)
>>Dynamic monster fighting
DnD4e

>But muh roleplay rules
If you can't roleplay without the system telling you what you can or cannot do, you can't roleplay at all. DnD4e sheets have all the information you need to roleplay correctly.
>But there's no [insert skill that doesn't rely on mechanics, like cooking]
Just add it, it doesn't change shit to the rules

This guy gets it

Started with 4e, never left it (to DM stuff myself, that is)

Savage Worlds has pretty OK sword fights, and you don't have to have wizards in it (and this wont compromise your ability to use magic items with it). Not so sure how it does on monster fighting.

If she doesn't put the rest of that armor on she is going to get greened.

>implying they wouldn't just take the armor off

for me it's 100%

Nechronica

Gilgamesh would be level 18-20 with a trillion epic-class items with effects of the character's choice. Not sure she has to worry about gobs.

Strike! combat is like 4e, but removed the minor bookkeeping stuff.

Also pretty easy to brew in.

you sure ?
Gilgamesh lost to this guy after all

UBW is essentially an epic-level spell though. It's Genesis, except it creates an infinite demiplane right away, and UBW specifically hardcounters Gilgamesh.
Look Nasu doesn't make any sense okay, Servants are supposed to be like orders of magnitude faster than humans and even E strength is ten times the muscle power of your average man, Gilgamesh has B strength or something making him 10 000 times stronger than your average man, but Shirou somehow doesn't pulp on impact. Nobody knows.

HEMAfag here.

Give me a couple of years I'm working on a comprehensive system that isn't too complicated. Think something between rolemaster and dark heresy.

>wide range of different attacks to employ in different situations
>can elect to fight defensively / offensively / get a feel for your opponent
>lots of situational modifiers to things
>all weapons viable they just have different niches in combat as per real life (spears aren't shit for example, let me tell you something about spears, they work, very well)
>different armours mean different things, you get puffed and hot in full plate for example, lamelar and softer armours can stop sword strokes well but get damaged really easily and start falling apart

Fuck I can't be bothered writing all this shit out but I'm doing my research, for example I'm asking military personel about what they think a realistic carry weight is (spread well) before you become noticeably encumbered. Which is, about a third of your body weight, and the upper limit of whats reasonable being about two thirds of your body weight. Asking things such as this got me thinking about factoring in body weight / size as well as strength and fitness into carry capacity.

Also my own experience in HEMA (using full weight steel gear) tells me some things about how weapons handle, and what can and can't be done. For example, circling around enemies (for example moving around or between people to get "flanking" is far more likely to grant you enemy an "AOO" than going in and out of their "threat radius." Going in an out of someones threat radius is something that's really common in skirmishes for example. Or another thing, a weapon like a two handed axe is a big scary threat weapon with loads of reach and it's something you need to pay attention too because it's fast, hits hard, can pin / break spears and fuck your shield up.

Does anyone know a system that takes all these sorts of things into account?

(Worry not, will simply everything.)

>damages players agency by "force moving" people around
What?

I think your scales are a bit off. They're superhuman, but nothing has really shown they're /that/ superhuman.

They're [supposed] to be superhuman, but nothing shows it to be so.

Most of the issue comes from the fact that skills and stats mean almost nothing to anything but the F/GO mobile game. The only skills that have ever come up are presence concealment, saber classes (and sabers specific) magic resistance, and sabers intuition thing. And mad enhancement, i guess, but thats less a skill and more a state.

Most of their superhumanity comes from being so thoroughly skilled above a regular dude that they shouldn't ever lose to a fuccboi. Unfortunately, Fate is a VN about a dude getting laid with several different chicks across several different distinct timelines, and things like that go out the window.

Protection from Arrows and Disengage is actually why Cu manages to fend off Gilgamesh for twelve hours.

when was this?

Happens off screen in Fate route, I think.

Neato. Still, thats applied usage of experience, which is what skills should be. Not a coded stat that only ever comes up in name only.

Passives like mad enhancement and sabers magic resist are neat things to stat, but actual skills shouldn't be.

Cu was also punching Shinji in the face after he stabbed himself in the heart directly.

Fucking Battle Continuation, man.

Protection from Arrows and Disengage are actual skills, arrows literally bounce off Cu and even fired Houtengeki only give normal flesh wounds while Disengage basically turns back time. The thing about Skills is that they reflect how they were in real life by making it a skill, because the Holy Grail literally cannot handle how good they were in real life and can't summon them at full power because it lacks the power needed.
Gilgamesh isn't even a proper magus, he's a warrior king, but in GO while he's actually alive he summons no less than six servants, one of whom is Merlin, off his own reserves. Someone like Cu in real life would be at least as fast as a hypersonic jet while Medea's nukes would've levelled half the town.

I think you missed my point. While its neat to codify skills like that, its a system that overall hurts in cases besides passives and noble phantasms.

For example, protection from arrows. Neat skill, but so utterly mundane it shouldn't be mentioned and he should just do it.

On top of this, ranks mean nearly nothing because experience will often trump overpowered noble phantasms, such as with vlad using his ability to beat someone literally invincible. Not to mention, there are noble phantasms above a literal world breaker like Ea.

>it shouldn't be mentioned
It's not mundane though.
In Cu's case, you can stab him with an arrow or a sword, but throw it at him and it bounces off.

>Neat skill, but so utterly mundane...

It blocks shot from Gilgamesh.

And? lancelot did it with gils own sword and no codified skill involved.

while i admit the overall effect is powerful, it still shouldn't be a codified "Skill". The more things are codified and boiled down, the less things will make sense when by all rights one person should win but another does. Let me phrase it this way. If his protection thing took the form of just parrying projectiles, it would overall have had the same effect.

In the end, its easier to simply assume these heroes have the experience to do that kind of thing than to try to codify it as a skill and end up with shit like gilgamesh losing to fuccboi mcfakeass.

What if Human!Gilgamesh was teleported to the future and had Servant!Gilgamesh as his servant? Would the Nasuverse be able to handle the Mesh'? Would that even be possible?

>no codified skill
Eternal Arms Mastery is a skill and Knight of Honor is a NP user.

>the less thing will make sense
They're not supposed to make sense. The Holy Grail War is a system and a really fucked one at that. The entirety of FSN can be reduced to about three themes and one of them is 'the War, the Grail, and the Holy Grail War are lies'. If these guys fought in real life it'd be a shitstomp in Gil's favor, with or without his Gate of Babylon, because he's motherfucking old as shit and therefore orders of magnitude more ripped than Heracles.

It's possible, Prelati summons himself in Strange Fake by using his own body as a catalyst.

First, i already said passives and NP are a different thing.

Second, why does everything need a fucking skill? These people are fucking heroes of old. Legends in their own right. Most of these things you could just assume from who they fucking are.

Lancelot for example. He was the strongest knight of the round table, so of course he could fucking use just about any weapon. Using it as a NP though is something entirely separate.

>First, i already said passives and NP are a different thing.
But user almost every skill we've listed besides Disengage are completely passive

>legends in their own right
They're not actually summoned as such thoug. They're summoned as pale shadows of their actual self and even the NPs, passives, and so on are just things that the Grail uses to better classify the system to make it possible to summon these guys at all.

>lancelot...so of course...
Except the reason he has Knight of Honor is due to a special myth where he defeated someone with a tree branch. He never used most of the weapons he used against Gilgamesh but the legend extends it.

>Dynamic monster fighting
What does that even mean? Can you not have something adjust tactics without a rule that allows you to?

This.

3.5 with a good DM.

Why not play 4e or 5e with a good DM instead?

Ishtar teleports into space and turns a star into an arrow then fires is at people in FGO, I don't think you should think too hard about reality when reading a chuuni sex game written by a horny teenage Japanese eggplant.
The first and only rule of Nasuverse is Rule 0.

Stop shilling Strike!

Why does Veeky Forums keep shilling Strike!?

Except for the magica l realm items what you want is song of swords

>Swordfighting is actually interesting
>Not spell slinging
>3.5

get tha fuck out

Anima: Beyond Fantasy.

1. Gilgamesh doesn't fight Shirou seriously except after he's already made a fatal mistake.

2. Gilgamesh isn't actually very good at fighting, especially in a melee.

3. Shirou is actually very good at fighting, as he taps into Archer's skills which are vastly superior to Gilgamesh's.

4. Shirou's body is made of swords, and he has Avalon protecting him. Read the VN and you'll see how frequently Shirou breaks bones and gets internal injuries it's every fight.

GURPS is what you're looking for, friend.

I lost count of the number of times Shirou dies but carries on fighting anyway. He breaks every bone in his body, loses internal organs and has blood pouring out of him but he just PUNCH HARDER KID YAMATODAMASHIIs through it because Nasu.

> Shirou is actually very good at fighting

Only under the caveat that he got trained by saber halfway through.

I like GURPS but it hardly has interesting swordplay.

Shirou is after all manly enough to become a counter guardian and heroic spirit.

>manly

Hardly. He's got massive plot armor on account of it being an adaptation of a porn game.

SW has okay combat, though will have to deal with the fact that it assume you are using minis and your players know all of their options.

He's not portrayed as super competent in the route where that matters, though. Fate has him working through his problems without really winning battles himself.

The reason he gets gud is because he adapts Archer's style, in UBW that's because of their fighting, in Heaven's Feel it's because he gets Archer's arm surgically attached and has access to his memories.

Thats the thing. he's never portrayed as super competent. Rather, his entire storyline from him to archer is entirely based around incompetence to the point of going back in time to kill himself.

His manliest portrayal is in fuckin kaleid of all things. Where he drops the hero bullshit and he's just like "Fuck this shit, fuck you, fuck everything, i'm protecting miyu"

I don't know man

by that logic losing hp damages player agency because it means they can't play anymore

>You've clearly never DMed if you think otherwise.
Or you're just absolutely fucking terrible at it.

He's constantly manly, even when he's making pancakes in an apron, I would go gay for Shirou in a heartbeat.

His 'incompetence' is no barrier to his justice, that's what masculinity is all about.

"Don't." - Nasu

>1. Gilgamesh doesn't fight Shirou seriously except after he's already made a fatal mistake.
Shouldn't matter with the baseline stat difference between them. Shirou is not running on the strength of a Roman Legion.

>2. Gilgamesh isn't actually very good at fighting, especially in a melee.
So they say but he shows he's more than capable of actually using the effects of the NPs he wields in Fate route, and again the stat difference should be enough.

>3. Shirou is actually very good at fighting, as he taps into Archer's skills which are vastly superior to Gilgamesh's.
Stat difference.

>4. Shirou's body is made of swords
Only in HF user

>and he has Avalon protecting him.
Avalon is not there because Saber is not there, Saber even disappears entirely halfway through the fight if I remember correctly.

>Read the VN
I did, it doesn't make any more sense. I understand the point eggplant is making but it still doesn't make any sense. As soon as Saber is out of the picture Gilgamesh should've killed Shirou literally instantly for no other reason than their basic stat difference.

>"Fuck this shit, fuck you, fuck everything, i'm protecting miyu"
Pretty sure that's the average response to this

>Shouldn't matter with the baseline stat difference between them.
The stats of Servants are their maximum potential, not their minimum. Gilgamesh absolutely did not take Shirou seriously until after his arm was off, at which point the fight was over.

Perhaps. But he was doing it well before that.

A cardboard cutout thats relying on women several times stronger and more competent than him is not what i'd call competent. Or manly. Also, his justice ended up backfiring on him to the point of going back in time as a magical servant to kill himself, so points lost there as well.

Most of his "manliness" comes from relying on avalon as well. It takes a big man to survive shit with a magic sheathe healing all your wounds.

You want manly? Fucking rider in fate/zero is manly. Shirou? he's somewhere between a near retarded lawful stupid optimist and a nihilistic emo idiot.

There's only so much plot armor a man can take before he just says "Fuck it"

Gilgamesh took Shirou seriously as soon as he decided to draw Ea, at which point he should've gained teleportion levels of speed compared to Shirou.

>Fucking rider in fate/zero is manly
>BROOOOO
No user. Cu is manly. BRO is a retard.

>cu is manly
>the one servant constantly ridiculed for dying like a bitch in everything
>to the point they made several gags about it in carnival phantasm

Nah.

1. By that point, Shirou was fighting at Archer's level. It's also probable that Archer was possessing him during that final encounter given his sudden appearance afterwards.

2. There was no gap to close where speed would have mattered significantly. Ea needed to charge for its ability and there wasn't enough time for that.

3. Gilgamesh was surprised, he was hardly ready for what Shirou did to him.

>dying in everything
Fixed that for you
He doesn't 'die like a bitch' in any route
Fuck off Zeroshitter

>near retarded lawful stupid optimist

Isn't getting out of that kind of the whole point of his character arc in Fate and UBW tho

>1. By that point, Shirou was fighting at Archer's level. It's also probable that Archer was possessing him during that final encounter given his sudden appearance afterwards.
Which is stupid, considering that Shirou should have literally fallen apart, like exploded, when crossing blades with Gilgamesh at that point, possession or not.

>2. There was no gap to close where speed would have mattered significantly. Ea needed to charge for its ability and there wasn't enough time for that.
Gilgamesh was already stepping back to try and open a gap. If he used his full Servant-level speed he could be moving at like 5000 ft per round.

>3. Gilgamesh was surprised, he was hardly ready for what Shirou did to him.
No, Gilgamesh was surprised that Shirou could actually drive him into a corner. He was not surprised that Shirou then proceeded to fuck him up. He was surprised that the hole showed up to eat him shortly after, if anything.

Fate isn't really about Shirou. UBW is about why he embraces that ideology even if it's flawed. HF is him evolving beyond it.

>no gap to close where speed would have mattered significantly

he coulda pulled out a regular sword and just stabbed shirou and been done with it.

Its the fucking villain monologue routine, and its equally cliche here as it is anywhere else, regardless of how you try to spin it.

Gilgamesh wanted to use Ea because he was being fucked by the Reality Marble, and because he's a way shittier swordsman than Shirou/Archer.

He's also (literally) insanely prideful, that's his biggest weakness and the reason he dies like a bitch to something he could easily have defeated in HF.

>shittier swordsman than shirou/archer

Okay, what about the fact he fought enkidu for three days straight? and only stopped because both him and enkidu ran out of shit to use?

On every level, gilgamesh is 100% superior. Matter of fact, thats something they point out themselves.

Also, half a months worth of kendo training, even from king arthur, will not give you the strength and tact to take on a fucking god-king with a storehouse of excalibur level weapons, regardless of what skills or abilities you gain in that time.

There is an inherent skill, power, and experience gap that shirou should never have been able to cross, but only does because he's the main character.

>
Also, half a months worth of kendo training, even from king arthur, will not give you the strength and tact to take on a fucking god-king with a storehouse of excalibur level weapons, regardless of what skills or abilities you gain in that time.

Saber's training is not what allows him to surpass Gilgamesh. Adapting Archer's style is. He achieves the level of a Heroic Spirit/Counter Guardian so quickly because of the way sympathetic magic/consensual reality works in the Nasuverse. Saber actually comments that her training is basically worthless because Shirou is learning nothing from her, it's all coming from Archer.

You are missing the fucking point.

No amount of training in that short span of time, archers style or no, instinctive or no, will give him the muscle mass and combat experience to fight gilgamesh.

Knowing how to swing something and use a style is one thing, but using it in combat is entirely another.

Regardless of what sympathetic magic bullshit nasu pulls out, he would not be ready in time because his physical body would be a twig comparatively to gilgamesh.

Second, its plot armor at all to have archer be doing any of this, rather than shirou learn any of it on his own. Its a fucking crazy feedback loop that by all rights shouldn't work, but only does because the throne of heroes is absolute bullshit.

>and because he's a way shittier swordsman than Shirou/Archer.
First of all Gilgamesh knows how to use weapons because he used those weapons on his quest.
Second of all he should literally pulped Shirou on contact because that's just how big the strength difference was, and that the inferior versions could just self destruct with the superior versions every time is complete bullshit when Caliburn gets "shattered" by Merodach in Fate roue.
Third of all while he is prideful as soon as he took things seriously he should've been able to literally*teleports behind you* Shirou and stab him because that's just how fast and strong Servants are.

1. He wasn't "training", he was awakening to his nature.

2. Muscle mass is irrelevant, Shirou's body was strengthened because it was infused with mana, Avalon, and swords.

3. Combat experience was inherent to the memories he absorbed from Archer's presence. He lived through a lot of his Counter Guardian experiences.

4. "Plot armor" and actual plot are extremely different. Shirou's development is fantastic and immensely enhances the story.

>awakening to his nature

No.

>muscle mass is irrelevant.

100 time 0 is still 0. His body should only have been able to handle so much magic reinforcement. Second, someone already debunked the swords thing, as thats heavens feel only.

>combat experience is inherent

Thats not how the human brain does.

>plot armor and actual plot are extremely different

yeah, a good plot wouldn't force feed its main character the strength needed to fight the literal strongest servant at the time of writing.

Why does movement matter? This isnt some weebshit anime where you teleport around like a retarded ninja. For the most part with out magic, fighting is two dudes beating the shit out of each other until one of them drops.

With a system that has little spellslinging applying buffs and debuffs becomes a thing most people could do, which then becomes the requirement to do.

In 99% of system 99% of the time the correct action is attacking, for people without fightan magic that just means swing sword. The actions that usually require more thought come from magic or supernatural abilities where you can do not normal things.

I rate this Martial vs Caster/10 disguise thread. Heres your you.

Ironclaw.
Seriously, what you want is Ironclaw

>Homebrewing custom races for the setting isn't a total crap shoot
So either something very simple or where races have a low impact
>Swordfighting is actually interesting
>move characters on the grid
>apply debuffs
>apply buffs to allies
There are games where you can't try to hinder and trick your opponent? And I don't know a game that doesn't allow you to aid a friend with gang-up boons, flanking or friendly parries.
>Players have magic items, but not spell slinging
So anything and no wizards? Or more something where magic only exists in object form?

Races are easy to implement in Savage Worlds or Fate or similiar rather light/ medium universal games. For the rest it's more about flexible gming and actual creative fighting than system. I've never seen a system that doesn't give you options to do whatever you want in combat.

Anime. Magic. Bullshit.

>>combat experience is inherent
>Thats not how the human brain does.
That is literally how Shirou's Trace and UBW work. He scans a weapon, learns the entirety of its existence, history, and usage, and when he wields it he takes copies the experience of the people who wielded the weapon.

He dies wield weapons, he summons weapons and let's them possess him, because on all levels including the physical he is a magic sword.

That is entirely and completely the only reason he wins fights, and why he's considered a Fake, because nothing about how he fights, from his weapons to his style, is his own, it's all replicated and borrowed.

So ... like The Riddle of Steel or SoS?
These do at least these of the listed things:
>>wide range of different attacks to employ in different situations
>>can elect to fight defensively / offensively / get a feel for your opponent
>>lots of situational modifiers to things [[not terribly sure about this point]]
>>all weapons viable they just have different niches in combat as per real life (spears aren't shit for example, let me tell you something about spears, they work, very well)

>This isnt some weebshit anime where you teleport around like a retarded ninja
user by the time most people are level 10+, using D&D as an example at least, as a warrior they can literally Musou their way through regiments.

>beating the shit out of each other
No user. No. That's not how fighting works. Melee fighting tends to be about judging distances, keeping optimal distance, footwork, and not getting hit because getting cleanly hit even once means you're toast