So Olorin of the Grey Hall, servant of the secret flame and student of compassionate Nienna, decides to seize the ring and the power of Sauron, requiring he remake himself in the image of Sauron's callus, absolute will and solipsistic vision. How does the late third age pan out if Gandalf takes the ring in the parlor of bag end and makes ready to wield it from a place of power west of the misty mountains, Eregion for example.
Hardmode: the fellowship is still basically behind him, a la the noldor behind feanor's cause despite glaring issues with it, and the arkenstone was a silmaril.
Sauron gets his shit wrecked, the fading of the last age of magic is postponed by Olorin's newfound power and lordship. This is not a good thing.
Chase Cox
This.
The end result will be similar to when Pharazon invaded Valinor. The Valar will admit their efforts failed, send for Eru, and he'll press the reset button.
Magic is meant to fade, the Elves are meant to leave, the Dwarfs and all the rest are meant to wither away, and Men are meant to take over.
That is Eru's plan and Eru will ensure that it happens.
Jaxon Miller
>Olorin of Many Colours
As a character, his compassion is basically his most defined trait. He has a grand sense of pity and is quick to rail at the exploitation of the weak. However, he is also patient and appreciates the simple candour of the Hobbit folk. This is all fairly appropriate for a disciple of Nienna, Lady of Mourning.
Wielding the One Ring basically takes your good traits to their logical and terrifying conclusion, so where does that leave us with Olorin, who's primary good trait is his ability to pity? He'd be a wise and just lord, who despite his goodness, would not allow those under his domain to progress. His would be a realm of stagnation, where the people are happy, but listless, as their needs are met and they move through simple lives with simple goals and simple means.
Elijah Perez
So a sort of communist hell
Noah Cook
>the arkenstone was a silmaril As soon as that gets out no one gives a shit about the ring anymore, sauron included
Easton Brown
If the Arkenstone was a Silmaril, shit would have gone down WAY before Smaug showed up.
The whole notion is stupid.
Generally, I agree with you, but one thing I'm not so sure of is the stagnation. I see a Ringlord Olorin as much more active than that. He has his pity for his subjects. He wants them to do well. And of course, he knows what is best for them all. I imagine he'd turn it less into some sort of stagnation thing and more into some sort of oppressive theocracy, for their own good of course, where ultimately every move and thought is handed down from on high.
Gavin Harris
Technically, if you go by the theory that the Ring CANNOT turn on Sauron, Olorin would take the Ring, declare himself in opposition to Sauron, and then immediately succumb to Sauron's Will because even the IDEA that someone other than Sauron could master the Ring is a fabrication BY the Ring.
Gandalf even broaching the subject in the books is merely a sign that the Ring's power could even undermine one as good and pure as him.
Joshua Jackson
And knowing this is why Gandalf nopes the fuck out, because he immediately realizes he's being corrupted by the ring super fast if he's actually considering it.
Gandalf and Galadriel both come within a knifes edge of becoming a second Sarumon and only get out of it via autistic screeching and making Frodo get it the fuck away from them.
Thomas Gutierrez
well there's more Sauron in the ring than out of it, so if you can be more Sauron than the little bit that remains active in the world instead of suspended in the ring as an abstract format within Eru's creation, you could become Sauron, essentially.
Camden Butler
This is one of the things that never made sense to me: Sarumon is greatest of the wizards and most knowledgeable, he KNOWS what the ring it, what it represents, and that it is IMPOSSIBLE to control. So how the fuck did he even start thinking he could usurp Sauron? When he knows for a fact Eru will just come down and slap everyones shit?
Dominic Rivera
>Technically, if you go by the theory that the Ring CANNOT turn on Sauron, Olorin would take the Ring, declare himself in opposition to Sauron, and then immediately succumb to Sauron's Will because even the IDEA that someone other than Sauron could master the Ring is a fabrication BY the Ring.
Contradicted by Word of God. Letter 246. Skipping certain sections.
>In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of 'Mortals' no one, not even Aragorn. In the contest with the palantir Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance. >Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him- being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. >One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a positiion. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.
Charles Wilson
That's what Sauron would have done, though. He was the one who was all about controlling people for their own good, as only a logistical virtuoso could.
Anthony Scott
Anyone literate knows it's not a silmaril. Your premise is faulty. This is like the kike who rewrote Harry Potter from a christkiller perspective: it's one thing to have a SINGLE point of divergence (Lilly and Petunia don't have a falling out as children, which causes Petunia to marry someone other than Vernon, which causes Harry's home life to be loved–making most of the change of the series) and seeing the consequences thereof, it's another entirely to arbitrarily change EVERYTHING about the world as your Yiddish little whims see fit (like he wound up doing).
Angel Bennett
Jesus fuck dude. Go back to /pol.
Joshua Brown
>Gandalf and Galadriel both come within a knifes edge of becoming a second Sarumon and only get out of it via autistic screeching and making Frodo get it the fuck away from them.
Not really, and the same letter states quite clearly that there's a big difference between even the most powerful elf and a maiar.
>In the 'mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Glaadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceived of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: They would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated.
While Saruman isn't mentioned, being of similar order as Gandalf, I imagine he could, were he able to keep control of the precious, defeat Sauron and supplant him as the new Dark Lord. And he presumably knew this.
>When he knows for a fact Eru will just come down and slap everyones shit?
Where the hell does this enter in? Eru hasn't stepped in and slapped down far huger shit than squabbling over a maiar's artifact. Why would he begin now?
Mason Peterson
1. Not an argument. 2. Not even relevant to the discussion. 3. You have no rebuttal or refutation. 4. You don't even have anything to add to what was said. "OH FUCK HE ACCURATELY CALLED OUT THE PSYCHOLOGY OF A PERSON'S MIND, BUT BECAUSE THAT PERSON IS JEWISH MY BRAINWASHING HAS BEEN TRIGGERED SO I'LL AUTISTICALLY SCREECH AT HIM LIKE I'VE BEEN TRAINED" does nothing for anyone. I brought up a completely valid point to make. Multiple points of divergence aren't good alternative history storytelling. If you can't say anything on that subject, shut the fuck up about the OTHER things you don't understand.
Hudson Morales
>Where the hell does this enter in? Eru hasn't stepped in and slapped down far huger shit than squabbling over a maiar's artifact. Why would he begin now?
Here
Nolan Cook
>That's what Sauron would have done, though. He was the one who was all about controlling people for their own good, as only a logistical virtuoso could.
Well, yes. But I don't think a ringlord Gandalf would have done much different. Unfortunately, the letter only has a very small bit about that. Here's what we do have.
>Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous' but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).
>The draft ends here. In the margin Tolkien wrote: "Thus while Sauron multiplied [illegible word] evil, he left "good" clearly distinguishible from it. Gandalf would have made good detestable and seem evil.
Ultimately though, I think it is enough to support an idea of a very active Gandalf bad guy.
Ayden Lopez
That is an awful lot of unfounded speculation.
Isaac Hill
Seems to me that we just need more info on the Pharazon thing. How "okay, kids, I'll clean it up" was that situation, regarding Iluvatar?
Carson Young
>Bad Guy Gandalf whose basically a wise patronizing dad figure >Doesn't have bad ideas but completly nixes humanities ability to make any decisions for itself >Ultimate nanny state >high quality of life combined with all the negative qualities of the nanny state the right claims it has >protags forced to ally with savage orcs and easterlings to try and oppose Gandalfs monodominant benevolent rule
Thomas Lewis
Why would the orcs do that? Seems to me they'd just go feral. Protags with Southrons and far Easterlings, maybe, but the goblins and orcs would probably just take advantage of the situation as best they could without a leader (meaning zerging various locations and being beaten back as soon as there was any organized resistance–Dwarves would even be able to start retaking Moria for good in that scenario).
Ayden Collins
Well, Illuvatar is the one who buries the invasion fleet and sinks Numenor, after Manwe "lays down the viceroyalty of the world". But that's in response to an attack on Valinor and an attempt by mortals to wrest control of things away from the angels/gods that Illuvatar has put into place.
Evil forces reigning over Arda seems much smaller beans than that. Especially since you have evil influence, or outright rule, over most of it for most of its history anyway.
Joseph Cruz
Ah, you're right. I forgot about the assault on Valinor being the trigger. So as long as Ringdalf doesn't sail for the Undying Lands (as he could still physically do, being who he is), Iluvatar's not going to do anything.
And if Ringdalf DOES, Iluvatar just sinks the ship and chuckles to himself.
Levi Gray
I feel like I'm not getting my ideas across clearly because it seems like you're agreeing with me.
Sebastian Wright
>Why would the orcs do that? Because Gandalf would be systematically exterminating them and they would align themselves with any strong man who could offer them a semblance of protection?
Tyler Barnes
Orcs weren't inherently stupid, Morgoth (And then Sauron as well) just kept them stupid because that was all he needed them for. They were tools, weapons, and both Morgoth and Sauron would have much rather had elves serving them but had already burned those bridges.
Aaron Jackson
whats with this "stagnant" society meme? a stagnant society the way its described and talked about isnt a real thing. youre just describing a perfect society where everyone is happy
gandalf has a fair amount of ends justifying the means type methods so he would just turn into about any of real life dictators. it wouldnt be shit because of "stagnation", it would be shit because when you acted up you get sent to magic gulags or a magic fema re-education camp
Justin Price
A society where nothing advances is stagnant. Nobody wants anything, so nobody does anything. It's not about the lack of happiness, it's about a lack of meaning that breeds apathy.
Kevin Powell
right. this thing that youre describing does not exist in real life. there is no society that people are too happy they just stop moving. in fact, actual human history has worked like this: the less time you have to spend doing necessary shot, the more time you can spend doing random fun shit
a society where all needs are met would be one where people fuck around and party all the time. people only go out and have fun when they have the time and the means to do it
Grayson Richardson
>If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end. >But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end. >It would have been the master in the end. The Ring wins
Chase Reed
This. Sauron still wins even if he loses. The Ring is Sauron and his will cannot be dominated, only dominate.
Jason Cox
It's basically just a metaphor for social degeneration into idleness and apathy, don't read too much into it.
Jordan Edwards
Because Morinehtar and Romestamo promised to cure the ailments in their blood with sacraments of Nienna such that their offspring do not bear their burdens, in return for their service in the name of the vallar.
again i know. do you have a real life society that has experienced such a thing? no? thats because its not a real thing.
maybe youre thinking of the rats overpopulation experiment or something. the problem is rats dont know how to do anything but eat and fuck. humans will happily find hobbies to ocupy their time until they die
the only problem that resembles "stagnation" i can even think of would be low birth rates. but even that is only such a problem because of how modern real life societies are set up. in magic fantasy land all it would mean is that the population would reach a nice equilibrium at some point. i mean societies dont fall apart in real life when all the young men die in war and youre left with nothing but old people
btw the way we already have an example of what a society like this would look like in Tolkien land. its the elves in aman
Noah Martin
>btw the way
rip in peace
Lucas Phillips
He makes it quite clear that the Ring is not Sauron, and that Sauron being killed by Ringlord Gandalf is just as bad for him as the Ring being destroyed in Mt Doom.
Christopher Lopez
read again user, I wrote THE RING wins, not Sauron, I don't actually remember everything, but as far as I know the one ring was imbued with Sauron's evil/malice yet was treated as a separate entity, the point being is that the ring would corrupt whoever wore it in the end
Luis Carter
Don't be a retard, he says nothing of the sort. It's outright stated it's Saurons will. Saying otherwise implies Sauron created some form of life, which is impossible.
Michael Morgan
You're also incorrect in believing Sauron can be killed. He's immortal, like the Wizards. Even the destruction of the Ring didn't kill him, it just depowered him to such an extent he was no longer a direct threat.
Michael Butler
>Arkenstone
Fuck you, bro. It would've burned their faggot hands if it was a Silmaril. It was just some faggy rock
Ian Lee
Durin's Bane should have taken it. Become a third dark power, and stomp all over Saruman's shit for fun. Then it could go molest Sauron into submission and rule Middle-Earth
Blake Diaz
Why tho?
Jason Gomez
Because Balrog Strong. Imagine the Ring resized to fit thick valarauko fingers. Glorious.
Xavier Turner
Yeah but, why does Durin's Bane give a shit?
Logan Morgan
Bitches keep interrupting naptime. The world needs to be subjugated/swept clean of life/destroyed so no one can ever interrupt naptime again
Dominic Hill
You've made Balrogs sound like they're just felines, as perceived by themselves.
Hunter White
>maybe youre thinking of the rats overpopulation experiment or something. the problem is rats dont know how to do anything but eat and fuck. humans will happily find hobbies to ocupy their time until they die
those rats found plenty of hobbies. the most disturbing point of that study was the hikomori(sic), the beautiful ones, male rats who spent their lives grooming themselves.
not that i disagree with what the rest of what you said, but i like to nitpick
Aiden Brown
> If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring.
Do you have a reading problem, or a thinking problem?
You know what I mean. Permanently depowered such that he can never affect things again absent regeneration from some outside source. But since that's a mouthful "killed" is almost as good.
Mason Johnson
You're splitting hairs unnecessarily. Here I'll help: - Is the Ring "Sauron"? Kinda yes, kinda know. It's got the better part of S's mojo and but is still separate. - While Ring exists but not claimed, S clearly gets some remote energy from it. This would go way up if they were reunited. - If Gandalf seizes the ring, the Sauron that's NOT the ring 'dies' (permanently depowered) just as when ring is destroyed. - Ring would then influence Gandalf into being a total dick, tho in a more nanny state style than S - So Sauron the entity would still lose, but Sauron's will-to-dickishness embodied in the ring would still win. There. Duh.
Benjamin Kelly
No one is refuting your points because they're valid. Your random antisemitic outbursts are just annoying, and don't add anything to what your point was supposed to be.
Jose Nelson
>- So Sauron the entity would still lose, but Sauron's will-to-dickishness embodied in the ring would still win.
you win all the prizes
Aiden King
Even with the ring I doubt it would have been that easy. Balrogs are trash compared to Gandalf, who was originally a very high ranking Maia of Manwe, or Sauron who was among the most powerful Maiar in general
Jose Evans
The ring has the following powers:
1. Make people want to possess it. 2. Corrupt its owner until they mentally become an exact duplicate of Sauron.
The ring motivates people to fight over it, so that the strongest inevitably wins, takes it and gets bodyjacked by Sauron. Every time the existing Sauron becomes too weak to hold off rebellion, the cycle repeats itself.
Thomas Hughes
Citation?
That seems off.
Camden Wright
>- Is the Ring "Sauron"? Kinda yes, kinda know. It's got the better part of S's mojo and but is still separate.
But that's wrong you retard. The Ring is not "kinda" Sauron. It's a tool of Sauron, one with its own will and alleigance to him, but still very much separate. That's why it CAN be used against him in the first place.
General evil, or seducing a formerly good figure to evil, doesn't make Sauron win, or his will win.
Durin's Bane and Gandalf seem to be pretty equal, what with them mutually dying in their conflict. And Gandalf is a Maiar of Nienna, not Manwe.
It is off. Again, letter 246. Gandalf as ringlord, should he be able to maintain his hold on the ring, can defeat Sauron so utterly as to be indistinguishable from the ring being destroyed.
Colton Thompson
>And Gandalf is a Maiar of Nienna, not Manw No, he is just Nienna's pupil. His actual allegiance is to Manwe
And Gandalf only dies to Durin's bane because he's on his "wizard" disguise. One of the first things he says to the fellowship upon coming back is that none of them can possibly hurt him
Jayden Murphy
>No, he is just Nienna's pupil. His actual allegiance is to Manwe
And hangs out in her "hall". His only sign of "alleigance" to Manwe is that Manwe selects him as the best guy to send over to oppose Sauron. There's nothing indicating he serves him in particular.
>And Gandalf only dies to Durin's bane because he's on his "wizard" disguise
No, he sheds that as soon as they pass out of sight of the fellowship. Gandalf in his fanar isn't the sort that can shatter mountaintops.
> One of the first things he says to the fellowship upon coming back is that none of them can possibly hurt him
He also mentions that he's significantly more powerful, that he's Saruman, or Saruman as he should have been. And in any event, he says that Durin's Bane is a foe beyond any of the fellowship.
Adrian Collins
>No, he sheds that as soon as they pass out of sight of the fellowship. . There's nothing to indicate this on the text
Liam Russell
there's nothing that spells it out with the incontrovertible clarity of detail that passes the Spacebattles standard for 'feats', which seems to be expected despite clashing badly with tolkien's style of exposition, but there is plenty of material in his writing that suggests this to be the case. At no point is the narration of the LoTR trilogy meant to be omniscient, or even truly definitive, it represents the historicized version of an in character account of events, several editions removed, and as such has more to do with Don Quixote and similarly framed stories reflecting on pre-modern fiction than its derivatives in modern, face value fantasy. I'll go so far as to say that's what makes his body of work such a fun and preeminent fixture of popular fiction. Its an informed, thought out synthesis of classical and medieval materials for a modern, casual academic reception just by virtue of being a linguistics prof's hobby, and that essentially makes it the academic equivalent to candy or porn. Tolkien made the epic literature equivalent of heroin, not because he was a shrewd dealer, but a resourceful junky.
Brody Sanchez
'Most knowledgeable' sometimes means 'most autistic'. Me, I assume it began with him deciding that maybe they all need to fly eagles to Mordor, and just went to shit from there.
Cameron Jackson
>If Gandalf seizes the ring ... Sauron dies/weakens
You're assuming that gandalf could actually cut Sauron's conntection to the ring
At what point is it ever stated that this could even happen?
Gandalf would have to literally rip Sauron's mind in half to do this.
Ian Brooks
>Sauron gets his shit wrecked
The Ring has no master but Sauron himself, the Ring IS Sauron. Even if Olorin takes the Ring, he will only be puppeteered by Sauron in the end. Only Beigns a magnitude above Sauron, like Valar or Bombadil can wield the Ring without falling to Sauron, and they don't have need of his power anyway.
Liam Adams
Durins Bane only wanted to be left alone in his dark hole. People keep bothering him though.
Isaiah Ortiz
>and the arkenstone was a silmaril Everybody in Middle Earth and Valinor collectively lose their shit and launch a massive crusade to get it for themselves.
I could honestly see the Valar personally coming to Middle-Earth to take it back. Like, holy shit, an ancient artifact that still holds the light of the Two Trees is unearthed by a bunch of shorties, you really think that said short people are going to be permitted to keep it?
Isaac Miller
>There's nothing to indicate this on the text
Other than the fact that he gets exhausted from one interaction of spell and counterspell locking a door as little old Gandalf the Grey, but then embarks on a nonstop running fight that lasts eight days and blows up the side of a mountain otherwise.
Quite literally a letter from Tolkien
>The Ring has no master but Sauron himself, the Ring IS Sauron
My God, do you people not read the thread?
>One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a positiion. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever.
Dylan Smith
Can't say anything about what Ringdalf would do, but iirc Melkor's and I'd imagine Sauron's as well whole deal was "let the Valar rule Valinor, who cares, but if they're gonna leave all the rest of it in chaos, why shouldn't I rule and bring my brand of absolute rule and order to those lands?"
Asher Kelly
Morgoth really was a retard huh
>come across the newly awakened elves who've had no contact with any of the other ainur >start scaring them for shits and giggles and kidnapping some to make into something shittier because lol I dunno haha
Tyler Jackson
Me personally? I think it was crab legs, with Sauron's rise back to power and the subsequent harrying of Gondor by both the forces of Mordor but more importantly the Umbar corsair fleets on the coast caused the fishing industry of Gondor to essentially cease production Me thinks Saruman was big fan crab legs and feet, but with no crab legs being imported from Gondor and nothing but his own feet to look at he just lost it
Michael Hughes
Morgoth was already batshit insane by then. He lost his ability to but a coherent thought together after the Age of the Lamps.
By the late First Age he was trying to convince himself he was god when he is a literal angel who beheld creation with his own eyes. He went from "usurp Manwe's throne" to "HURR CORRUPT ALL ARDA"
Luis Wright
He'd use it to rally every free person in Middle-earth against the darkness, wiping out the Orc armies, then realising he'd become a monster and would jump into the fires of Mount Doom willingly.
Ethan Fisher
*Archangel
Jordan Sanders
>He lost his ability to but a coherent thought together after the Age of the Lamps.
I don't think it was wholly gone by that point. His escape from Valinor, as well as scouting out the secrets of the Elves and conning of Ungoliant took some ability to think.
He only seems to fully lose it after the death of the Trees.
Connor Diaz
The Valar are lazy shits that mostly stopped caring about the silmarils after Feanir refused to give it to them the first time.
The elves ruined themselves trying to get them and the sons of Feanor a pretty much done so no one's really bound to care anymore.
Sauron would totally be on that shit though
Austin Ross
Morgoth's only drive in existence is to spite the creator and taint his works, which is pretty much everything. He has and has never had a coherent plan, he just wants to troll the world. It's Sauron who actually had enough sanity to aim for a goal
Colton Hughes
Morgoth cannot abide anyone being happy. He made them shitty so they would be in a constant state of self hatred
Jace Perez
Bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit.
The Valar KNOW that after the Dagor Dagorath the three Silmarils will be recovered from the earth, sea, and heavens. Feanor will leave the Halls of Mandos and crack open the Silmarils releasing their inner light. Yavanna will then take that light revive the Two Trees.
The Valar already know all this. It's the Prophecy. If one of the Silmarils shows up early and out of place, the Valar will be on it like white on rice.
If you know nothing about the lore, just keep you fucking mouth shut. Okay?
Isaac Price
They'd have Manwe ask Eru what's up, bumble around, then do nothing because it's impossible for anything to happen that doesn't fit into Eru's plan
Liam Diaz
You do realize that according to Chris Tolkien, Dagor Dagorath was abandoned pretty early into the development of the legendarium, right? Not even the guy you're responding to, but really, if you want to tout your knowledge of the lore, you should have some idea of what the lore is.
Why do you think it's not included in the published Silmarillion?
Jaxson Martinez
Did none of the Valar ever wonder what the point of making the elves was if their boss was going to make Men his favourites instead?
Henry Mitchell
The way it's expressed is usually the other way around. Men are much more foreign to the mind of the Valar than Elves are. They wonder what the point of making the Men was, and why they're the ones favored.
Parker Cook
Jesus you're an aggressive fucking faggot. piss off.
Dylan Peterson
And you're still wrong about Sauron and the Ring. They are the same being and that can't be disputed. Otherwise you're saying Sauron directly created a form of life, which if you're such a fucking lorefag that you think you are, only Eru could do, no other.
Eli Murphy
Again, not that guy, one of the ones lambasting him, but
>And you're still wrong about Sauron and the Ring. They are the same being and that can't be disputed.
>One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a positiion. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever.
They are very much not the same thing.
>Otherwise you're saying Sauron directly created a form of life,
No, because the Ring isn't alive.
Christopher Ramirez
that's retarded and you're retarded and it's not what it's saying at all.
Where in that quote does ever say Sauron and the Ring weren't the same being?
Connor James
The part where it says that Gandalf could use the ring against Sauron and produce a result, from Sauron's point of view, equivalent to the ring being destroyed.
Xavier Powell
Yeah, I don't know how you interpret that as the Ring being its own independent will It's literally an extension of Sauron, why would destroying the Ring have any effect on Sauron it wasn't an actual part of him just separated from his physical form?
Christian Lee
>Yeah, I don't know how you interpret that as the Ring being its own independent will
First off, that's not what I've been saying. The fact that it isn't an extension of Sauron's will does not imply it has its own independent will. The fact that it can be used against Sauron, however, pretty clearly scuttles the former.
>It's literally an extension of Sauron,
It literally isn't, because again, it can be used against him. If it were an extension of Sauron, unless the Dark Lord has repressed self-destructive tendencies that are supported nowhere else, Gandalf wouldn't be able to use the Ring to empower himself to the point of personal confrontation.
>why would destroying the Ring have any effect on Sauron
I'll admit, I'm speculating here, but I would hazard the fact that Sauron isn't in his native state; he's "died" (Yes, I know not exactly as his fea wasn't destroyed, but you know what I mean) twice before, once in the Downfall of Numenor, and once at the war of the Last Alliance. The first time, in the Alkallabeth, clearly had a deleterious and permanent effect on him, despite retaining possession of the Ring. A second time around is likely to do even more permanent damage.
At this point, he probably needs the power contained and still somewhat accessible to him in the Ring just to hold his fea to a fanar. With that gone and the power dissipated, he no longer can keep himself together. And it is clear from the letter as well as all over the book that despite it being separated from him, Sauron can still interact with the Ring on some level, no matter who its current possessor is.
