Would you?

Only after much deliberation and understanding of the consequences my actions will bring about.

Apathy is death. Even worse than death.

"See it through the eyes of the Exile"

"The Jedi who fall are the most dangerous of all."

Ok! then my final anwser is a resolute NO!

Fuck this bitch. If I've got shit to do you know that I'll be using every tool to my advantage.

It was a video game and she didn't explain shit good

"Take the greatest Jedi Knight, Sith Lord, strip away the Force, and what remains? They rely on it. Depend on it, more than they know. Watch as one tries to hold a blaster, as they try to hold a lightsaber, and you will see nothing more than a woman – or a man. A child."

Let me reply in kind.

Take a doctor, a peasant and a governess and cut their heads off. And then they're dead. D. E. A. D. People tend to need a head to keep living. If they dont have a head, they die.

Maybe its reductionist, but from where i'm sitting her argument looks like her saying "If you take away the thing they practiced for years, then they can't do the thing that they practiced."

I think that's a pretty bad argument because its a truism.

A teaching- any teaching- only achieves worth in how it is practice- in the effort, the struggle of the one who holds it. Such a teaching does not make a Jedi or a Sith. And at times, it makes them much, much less than they are."

That's lame as well. Teaching finds value in application. Good teaching is measured in efficiency in the same way that poetry is.

Swinging a Lightsaber like a mad man doesn't give you much insight into inter planetary diplomacy or economy. Or to go further, creating a stable leadership and governance that will last the centuries. Jedi or Sith that play at issues that impact the entire glaxaly and depending on 'the Force' to give them instinctual direction are simply creating more issues and larger conflicts bringing in the pseudo-religious divisions of light and dark side.

Its also worth mentioning that being a jedi or Sith is not really a profession so much as it is a state of being or a philosophy or maybe a religion.

They are defining of the self and in universe, they give the practitioner tangible powers.

Imagine if Christians and some kind of demon worshipers had fought a never ending war that ranged in scale from world war to cold war levels of espionage and they had actual powers like we see divine beings wield in the bible. Than an atheist comes along and promises they can end the horseshit, but the caveat is that they might unmake creation in the process.

"One quickly learns, that the Jedi Code does not have all the answers. If you wish to understand all aspects of the Force, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal."

Is The Force sentient?
I'd always assumed it was what the name implied.
A force.
A non-sentient, law of the universe. Like gravity, electromagnetism, or strong force.
Something that's just there, and provides the rules and basis for reality.
It's not exactly indifferent, because it can't care anyway.
Am I wrong?
INB4 some one just says "yes"
INB4 Someone does the INB4

depends on the force user philosphy. During the last thousand years of the Old republic, many Jedi believed in the Living Force, a less pessimistic version of the veiw of Kreia/Treya

Cutting someone's head off is a terrible analogy to cutting one off from the force. A much, much better analogy would be blinding someone. Kreia's argument is essentially that when someone is blinded, their initial struggles reveal how unhoned their other senses are.

A bit of an aside, but Mob Psycho 100 might be a good example of Kreia's ideas in practice. A central theme is to never rely on a single talent and instead actively seek to broaden and improve oneself.

At it's core, it's based on Doc Smith's Arisians, noncorporeal aliens that seek to control the events of normal spacetime in opposition to their evil counterparts, the Eddorians (aka the Dark Side).

Lucas tweaked the hell out of the baseline and threw in a ton of Eastern mysticism, some of which make for a somewhat contradictory interpretation of what exactly the Force is. But with EU shit like the Whills, and the Force "gods" in the cartoon, it's pretty clear the Force is a sapient entity of *some* kind or another.

But using the Dark Side makes you a huge dick. Besides, the Jedi seem pretty accepting of being unable to hold all the answers in their path through the Force. It was only when they began to stray and hold onto power that they lost the galaxy to the Sith in the Clone War.

I'll agree that the Jedi and the Sith aren't the only ways to understand the Force. I always felt they were too stagnant because of their dominance, not just in-universe but in the franchise. That's one of the main reasons I think KOTOR is overhyped. What does Kreia say about the Sith?

Feeling the will of the Force always implied it was somewhat sentient to me, but more like a very dispersed collective sentience

entity, collective;
tomato, tomato plant.

My impression was that the force has some sort of will given how much they talk about letting it guide your actions.

>many Jedi believed in the Living Force, a less pessimistic version of the veiw of Kreia/Treya
Then Jedi became something like Jedi From Kotor 2. With the clone wars tearing them Asunder, Sith came back, A Second Jedi Purge which exterminated all but Two, Sith Taking Over the Galaxy again. And then After The Jedi are brought Back and "Balance" (Subjective here) is restored. The galaxy went to shit faster than the eye could blink. With the new Republic not even lasting a Generation (EU Legends) or Being fucking Retarded (Canon) A Third Jedi Purge which Either Wiped half (EU) Or left Luke Being the Last Of The Jedi (Canon). And then there's war that will leave the Galaxy in Ashes (Vong) or About to be (Canon). At this Point I just want to see how far can this go.

No she didnt really think the distinction mattered. It wasnt that the force would stop at nothing to kill sith it was the force would stop at nothing to deal with unruly things.

Fandom furthered the idea where Light and dark were limited by SEVERITY like the depths of a ocean rather then actual sides of a coin.

So while the light side only used their will to power the force, by throwing your emotions into it the force had more power over you. Which is why all sith inexplicably, while feeding on a force of short lived emotions and impulsive, will inevitably attempt to carve a empire. Empires that are all aesthetically similar.

Jedis and sith hated the idea because it implied they were both pawns and the force users are too proud to admit such faults.

I like how the new movie never really addresses how a struggling fragment of the empire managed to completely outdo the Death Star, the single grandest feat of engineering in the known galaxy.

I also like how they pretty much just gloss over the fact that the main system of the New Republic got blown the fuck up and Leia's PMC was apparently the only military force left.

as far as no military, except for the Palpatine years the Republic basically didn't HAVE a military for centuries. For that civilization, no army is business as usual.

Its Nothing but a trainwreck. How Leia and Han, Handle their Son was just plain idiotic. The Rebels Recreating the old Republic with the Sames Flaws is Another. People not Taking the remnants of the Empire Seriously is just going pants head retarded. They Learned absolutely nothing. The Mind Boggles.

There is one scene in the movie I love.

Im paraphrasing but they send the plans to the base and the commander goes
>Look these guys made a seriously fucked up station.
>Oh like the death star.
>No no no. The commander smirks. "See this is the death star, this is starkiller base. See? It's bigger"

That's the whole fuckin movie. "See its not episode 4. It's bigger."

It really does feel that way. They better do some derailing before they have ESB pt II and RoTJ pt II.

They Did what George Lucas could not. They Ruin Star Wars.

I honestly liked star wars. Like all of it.

Even Jarjar, even shitty eu books. The whole vision dazzled me. I can't NOT respect someone who hired a sword expert just to make lightsaber combat forms.

I even liked a lot of VII, I mean Finn was funny. It just... it wasnt a star wars move. Or rather, I could not for the life of me figure out why Greedo was unforgivable but this saved the fuckin series.

The whole "There are not six movies there are only 4" was so fuckin irritating.

They had a Chance to do Something Different in Episode Seven. Why do a Rehash to episode 4 that is so Blatant even normal people can see?

No. Her entire philosophy is based around a misunderstanding of what the force is, how it works, and what balance within it means.

Well it worked.

People fuckin loved the movie BECAUSE it was 4.

Then people spent the whole time pissing the shit out of George Lucas and I never was more vaguely annoyed at a fandom.
I mean, how shallow a cunt you have to be to go 180 on a guy cause he tried a lot of new things that didn't always work.

>millenials loved the movie because it was 4*

Alot of the generations that were in high school when ESB came out hated ep. 7.

>source: my dad and uncles

Got an older friend, OSR/original Star wars and fantasy fan. He hated it because it was a rehash.

Anecdotal, I know.

Im basing my position on all the oldies in my larp who were excited after seeing it.

Well Rogue One was atleast original, and I do like the idea of individual stories that take place in the series.

I could watch 2 hours of the republic commandos for instance.

A trilogy of Obiwan on Tatooine is better.

I honestly thought obiwan spent a decade being a sad person till he evolved into a sad old man.

She was right somewhat

...

I don't know, she mostly just has an issue with the force having a will and influencing people and that's not exactly untrue.

Now we could get into her whole moral relativism thing, but that's only partially related to her beliefs regarding the force.

Morality is Subjective that is a Objective Truth

Not in star wars.

I thought this was star wars not babylon 5.

>Not in star wars.
You don't get it, do you? The Jedi... the Sith...To the galaxy, they're the same thing; just men and women with too much power, squabbling over religion, while the rest of us burn.

Whats with all this cringey shit?

Grey Jedi, I presume.

It's what I hate about the post-Vong EU, honestly. Becoming grimdark and 'muh grey and grey morality' just ruined the spirit of what Star Wars was meant to be.

I honestly prefer a more Philosophical Approach to the Whole Grey and Grey Morality.

This

Brings a lot more depth to the universe in my opinion, but even if you don't agree it's variety at least
Avellone's writing aside it doesn't even have to be treated as an objectively true option in-universe, just as "there might be people in the SW universe who have a different view even if it's wrong"

This is a bit awkward given I was planning on writing a "Grey Sith" of sorts as either the primary antagonist in a Clone-Wars era scenario, or a short story, but I don't want it to come across as either cringy "THE REAL HEROES ARE PEOPLE WHO USE LIGHT AND DARK EQUALLY" or "OC donut steel who is super handsome and snarky and shoots lightning cuz its cool"

My basic idea so far is:
>Character started off as a philosophically minded Jedi
>Becomes a commander for essentially a glorified planetary militia at the onset of The Clone Wars
>Witnesses the absolute worst of the fighting, sees untrained militiamen press-ganged into The Republic military
>Him, along with other relatively young Knights and apprentices see constant combat, carnage, and death.
>Their soldiers are slowly replaced by "expendable" clone troopers, death toll rises dramatically on both sides
>Eventually while pursuing Separatist Forces, they come across a planet that was once colonized by the old Sith Empire.
>Discovers Sith texts, studies them
>Tries to reject them, but in the midst of all the combat and death, comes to the conclusion that the struggle and desperate desire to survive HAS made his allies and himself stronger
>Starts searching for more Sith lore
>Encounters some shit from The Brotherhood of Darkness, old holocrons and the like
>Tries to form a new order based off of them
>Along the way, he finds too many philosophical problems with The Order and tried construct something new
>Arrives at a sort of half-way point to the Rule of Two philosophically speaking, creates hierarchy and encourages competition among The Sith.
>Eventually he leads his followers (force sensitive and non-force sensitive alike) to a system in the Outer Rim, conquering it in a series of psuedo-"heroic" deeds in the hopes of forming a civilization based off of his interpretation of Sith philosophy
>Essentially Nihilism, but with heaping dose of encouraging people to become "Ubermensch".

It's fine imo and really whether or not it comes off as cringy or not depends mostly on characterization if you ask me, not so much on the story

Her daughter is supposed to look like her, so I totally would a younger Kreia.

Reread the post you're replying to. Jedis and SIth use the force constantly, for every aspect of their life.
Strip a surgeon from his skill, and it won't change his ability to shoot a blaster, or drive, or interact with people.
The Force is a powerful crutch, and as a result it stunts the development of its user. It makes people into single-minded, dogmatic one-trick ponies.
You use force empathy, truth sense, enhance attribute, instinctive astrogation, and you forget that those things aren't perfect. Maybe Anakin wouldn't have fallen if he didn't rely on the Force and its visions so much.

We got a similar problem in the army; high-tech systems means that the men are completely lost when they can't rely on it anymore.
30 years ago you did some orienteering and then the guys stil lmanaged to find their way when you removed the map.
Today, when the GPS fails it's a disaster. I've had some guys getting lost between the barracks and the mess hall.

heh

Kreia believed dark side practitioners could be good, and light side practitioners could be evil, though both were ultimately misguided.

I have never for the life of me understood why the regular people of the galaxy don't just kill all the force sensitives on discovery.

These assholes consistently cause nothing but mass misery. Even when the light side wins, ordinary people gain nothing. They just get to wait until the next time one of these dipshits throws a temper tantrum annd throws the whole galaxy into war.

Because of the force.
It makes you better, stronger, more intuitive, so more likely to be in a position of power.
Also it's sometimes hard to detect, isn't 100% tied to genetics so they can appear from nowhere, and the force probably influences regular people too.

The force is a religion. You're basically asking why the Catholics don't kill the clergy, except in this universe, the clergy get superpowers.

Yes it makes you better. The rest of us get nothing. Also, if memory serves me, at its peak the jedi order had a grand total of 10k jedi. So the rest of us get to have constant galaxy spanning misery so that a handful of people can be cool?

>user figures out how the world works the post

It's not though, regular Joe McRepublic didn't worship the force
The Jedi were barely even a presence in the lives of like 99% of the population
Which is why people like Han Solo didn't even believe in it like 20 fucking years after order 66
Force meant nothing to most of them
I guess there were a few races that were inherently more sensitive to the force in the old EU like the Sith aliens and Rakata who worshiped the dark side in a way

Han Solo is not representative of the larger population.

You know how everyone in the new movies is telling the main characters that the force guides you? That's the religion.

So I googled it and the population of the known universe in SW according to some atlas was 100 quadrillion
That's 100 times 10^15
1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of that would be 100 000
That's still 10 times the peak amount of jedi according to And most of those jedi aren't even particularly out much and concentrated in Coruscant and other core worlds at best
How many people do you think ever met a jedi in their lives?
Hardly comparable to telling Catholics to kill their clergy, when every catholic has a priest for their neighborhood
Also, the people in the new films aren't representative of the people pre- a force user/jedi master to be/founder of the new jedi order literally blowing up the Death Star once and killing the Emperor later and basically being a figurehead of the rebellion that overthrew the galactic government

You're right, the people prior to the films were much more overt in their worship of force users, what with all the religious statues they built.

This is pretty much the new canon in the Star wars comic. Obi wan pretty much does nothing except protect Luke

You mean one statue on one planet that had a jedi temple?

Korriban, corruscant both come to mind.

Korriban for one hasn't even been seen in the films and other than that it was THE Sith joint where they had statues built of their megalomaniac tyrant dictator overlords on their grave sites, I don't remember any jedi statues in Coruscant but it's also the Jedi hq

They burn corpses.

>I have never for the life of me understood why the regular people of the galaxy don't just kill all the force sensitives on discovery.

That's called the empire son. They actually did it. That happened.

>These assholes consistently cause nothing but mass misery. Even when the light side wins, ordinary people gain nothing. They just get to wait until the next time one of these dipshits throws a temper tantrum annd throws the whole galaxy into war.

Dunno mate, thousand of years of peace under the Jedi order seems good to me.

There's also the ratakan, and other sith empires, which iirc usually worshipped their rulers.

But now you've gone and put yourself in a corner. If you want to ignore these non movie sources, then you have to be consistent and only discuss the movies.

So let's do that shall we?

In parts 1 through 3, a prominent temple exists on the capital planet which houses warrior monks of a particular faith. These monks wield enormous political and military power in their Democratic society, to the point they believe they can assassinate or arrest the sitting president with little consequence, purely for being part of a faith they deem heretical.

In rogue 1, set moments before the original trilogy, the force faith is widespread but kept secret. It's obvious why: palpatine has perpetuated a brutal cleansing of any beliefs related to the Jedi. But even with this cleansing, a small group of faith based rebels continues their practices and prays to the force for guidance.

Then in parts 7, and probably 8 and 9, curve worship has resurfaced after the empire fell.

A thousand years of stagnation. Corruption. And religious persecutions if you don't believe in the same religion as the warrior monks. They just exterminated another religion due to its different philosophic outlook.

Then you have my dad who was 16 when ANH came out, and he really enjoyed TFA. And me who would spend days when I was 8 watching all the movies at my grandparents farmhouse. I also loved it, mostly because I will love anything star wars. Fuck it. The Christmas special isn't as bad as people make it seem. That's a lie, it was awful but I still like it

Tldr: Kreia was absolutely right about the force being the cancer that is killing the galactic society?

That's why i liked Kreia. Generally good people can do bad things. Generally bad people can do good things. I get the whole Star Wars ideal is that there is little to no moral grey area. Everything is black and white. Black and white can be boring though.

A culture's teachings, and most importantly, the nature of its people, achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves… or find themselves lacking. Too long did the Republic remain unchallenged. It is a stagnant beast that labors for breath… and has for centuries. The Jedi Order was the heart that sustained its sickness—now the Jedi are lost, we shall see how long the Republic can survive.

Worshiping your rulers isn't the same as worshiping the force and I already admitted right in the beginning that some force sensitive cultures did worship it like the Rakata and Sith
And I just pointed out the Korriban thing because all it's portrayals are based on EU that's been thrown out, but Korriban has been mentioned in the canon material

As for the prequels and the jedi temple and the jedi's position in the government means literally nothing in this discussion other than they were and ancient and well established organization, not once was it portrayed so that people worship the force, or particularly reverence of the jedi, Watto gives Qui-Gon the finger when he tries mind tricks, Anakin's reaction is like a kid meeting a navy seal or fucking ninja or some shit
Nor does anyone adhere to any tenements or doctrine set by the jedi about the force other than the jedi themselves about the practice of its use

Where in Rogue One is the "force faith" shown to be widespread? I remember Erso being told "may the force be with you" which is literally the SW equivalent of saying good luck, oh and I guess it's also used by the Rebellion as a motto and they should be well aware of the truth about the Jedi "uprising" that Palpatine quelled since Ahsoka, Obi-Wan, that one dude from Rebels and Leia's adoptive dad were all in contact and an integral part of it all and I'd imagine the jedi were seen as martyrs that died trying to save the galaxy

tl;dr the force is a force of nature in the SW universe, like gravity
Nobody worships the gravity
The living force and the whole idea it has a "will" of any kind is literally a philosophy solely among SOME jedi

Yeah she was right. Especially in the new canon

Kreia was a liar and came up with grey morality horseshit to draw you in and get you to do what she wanted.

No matter what you choose she manipulates you to end the Jedi order, remove her rivals and corrupt a lore master while risking your life which she realizes is a threat to you. She wants to keep you down the center because it offers the least resistance to her, psychologically and mechanically.

Fuck no.

Kreia
A) was a Sith
and
B) had a completely false understanding of the Force.

She can go to hell.

>views the force as a cancerous entity that forces the galaxy into a never ending circle of war and bloodshed
>galaxy is stuck in a never ending circle of bloodshed between various force user factions

So the force is responsible for the same cycle in our world and not just the endless cycle of civilizations?

Not the force's fault russia is acting all belligerent

Kreia always struck me as having a blind spot as to how her own culture could have shaped her ideas about the force.

Well she was not ideal. If she would have risen to such level of "enlightenment" she probably would have never attempted her plan. At least not even close to how it originally played out.

If she were even not a sith but just a little more egoistic she too would not have attempted her plan and just allowed the galaxy to deal with its own problems.

I'd sign up with Kreia in a heartbeat.

She believed that the inherent nature of the Force was the Dark Side. The Light Side was simply a mask that it wore.

Consider. Someone donates to charity. They often assist at a children's hospital. They help individuals out every day. But when no one is looking, they torture, rape and eat young children. Such a person is clearly evil.

You simply can't be both good and evil at the same time. No matter what kind of "good" you commit, it does not mitigate the evil that you do. And, at a certain point, the evil you commit will outweigh any of the good you do.

In the same way, if the Force is both Light side and Dark side, then it's true nature must be the Dark side. It's a dangerous entity that controls people's actions. It guides people's fate. It treats individuals like puppets. It is, in essence an all-powerful, all-watching entity, and while it may wear a mask of Light, that is simply to make itself seem tempting to the unwary.

At its core, the Force is evil and it needs to be stopped. Are you a bad enough dude to rescue the galaxy?

>But when no one is looking, they torture, rape and eat young children.
Citation needed. Some people don't need watchers to be men of moral integrity.

she was truly the greatest edgelord of the sith

I was actually playing through KotOR 2 while watching Mobile Psycho 100 and drew many parallels. Basically, don't rely on a single talent, even if that talent makes you all powerful. If you were to ever lose it, you would be much lesser. Also the belief that psychics and force users are no better than normal people, they simply have different talents that they rely on too much.

So.. if force is part of everything living, that would mean you would have to obliterate entire galaxy. Guess that works, in twisted way.

>Th-they just attacked the Sith because they were different! N-Nihilus dindu muffin! He was a good boy!

Nihilus is really good example of how bad the force is, he is essentially a force-Crack addict, no good entity gets people to drain entire planets to satisfy a craving