Why is Veeky Forums so butthurt about systems all the time?

Stargender pls go. You are not actually a meteor.

Everyone does this when they get invested in a hobby in any meaningful amount. They will endlessly point out flaws in things that they do not like and praise the things that they enjoy, often times, ignoring the flaws in those things.

It's mostly harmless though.

And cannot comprehend the inherent usefulness of anything that is beyond the scope of his own existence.

/thread

>And cannot comprehend the inherent usefulness of anything that is beyond the scope of his own existence.

Well confession time

I am indeed one of the people that throw hate at a system, notably at D&D.
But why?
Because it is popular enough to have influence on everyone engaged in the hobby.
There is plenty of games i consider not my thing, bad or plain rubbish. At example Exalted - I seriously think it's total shit, but this is the first time I even mention it on Veeky Forums. Why?

It doesn't affect me.

While D&D does, no matter if I'm willing to play it or not. It is the face of the hobby. It has a lot of influence. Too much for it to be healthy, because it represents a single set of approaches towards the rpg gaming. Everything D&D does, it makes whole hobby look like it does the same. And I'm talking about core issues here, not stupid details like "crit failures" as pointed by Like focusing on game, tactics and cool powers over story

Like being kitchen sink bastardized fantasy that slowly kills my beloved genre, because it did even spread into other media, like vidya, literature and film.

Like being mostly about murderhobos and dungeoncrawl

It would be all ok if it would be a NICHE equal to every other niche within the hobby but it isn't, it is put on pedestal so much higher than everything else.

So while Exalted is in my opinion w far worse game, it doesn't hurt me as much.

Exalted didn't make half of the players I know a murderhobo wor whose RPG is all about gathering xp and gold through killing shit (or just drawn people with such tendencies into the hobby instead of someone else in first place). D&D did.
Exalted didn't start the trend in portraying fantasy that culminated in film adaptation of book of my favourite author turning into a animu-tier overdone special effect shitfest with MMO aesthetics. D&D did.
And so on.

I'll repeat once again, none of the aspects of D&D is essentially more loathsome than those of many other games. But the loathsome aspects of other games aren't poured at me from every direction wheter I want it or not.

Is based Karl the perfect example of low Int but high Wis?

That's understandable reasoning. D&D has basically made it harder for you to enjoy a hobby that you love so much because it's all anyone knows about that hobby anymore.

As a result, any new players you hope to find or anyone you wish to discuss the hobby with will all just think of D&D as the standard, when there is so much more.

>Like focusing on game, tactics and cool powers over story
>Like being kitchen sink bastardized fantasy that slowly kills my beloved genre, because it did even spread into other media, like vidya, literature and film.
>Like being mostly about murderhobos and dungeoncrawl
That shit is all up to the DM though. I've run games in 5e that were none of those things. I do agree with your point that the game, or at least the game as it is traditionally played, has had a negative impact on the hobby as a whole, however.

No, it's up to everyone at the table, not just DM. And while yes, people involved can make game different, it doesn't change is that when played "by the book", in the default way presented on it's pages, game is as it is. Self-conscioius players can with more or less effort do anything with any game, but if you will give a rulebook to a complete newb, and let him learn from it with little outside guidance there are way more chances than not that he will assume the default playstyle described. That's why D&D produces mostly player it does produce.

On the side note I actually respect 5E to some degree, because of all D&D iterations it's really the best one and a step in right direction from my perspective, but it's still harmful monopolist.

>5e the best
>not Moldvay/Cook Basic

>5e is the best
As someone who's run four different 5E campaigns, 5E got a couple of things right, but the dumb stuff is pants-on-head retarded and should never have made it to paper.
>Still haven't solved 3.5's problem with martial classes playing tiddlywinks outside of combat
>Still haven't solved class balance inside of combat
>Still haven't solved HP bloat
>Still haven't solved Full Attack Syndrome
>Ranger was SO BAD they had to rework it twice (the second time because the first rework was so obnoxiously overpowered)
>UA is one of two things:
>>Busted beyond belief
>>Oh wow it's fucking nothing
>Fucking Yuan-Ti as a player race
>Fucking Aarakoa as a player race

Faggots like you are the other side of the coin: smugly self-satisfied misanthropes with a hard-on for a particular system and a willingness to be the front-line IDF for it

.....
we really are the /v of traditional games

Ahhh... because we're Veeky Forums?
What kind of stupid question is this?

I have a tendency to play with players who have had very little exposure to rpgs outside of my games, so I basically never have those problems. If you're willing to put in a little effort you can teach your players to play the game the way you want them to. Of course, this also relies on your ability to find players who will be both able to enjoy and willing to play the way you teach them. Nothing in the rules of D&D requires your players to be murderhobos, and nothing in the rules of D&D requires you to run dungeon-crawl campaigns.

At least you found a way to feel superior to both.

Because it prevents the End of the World.

I'm really starting to think people post here without reading the prophecy.

A huge segment of Veeky Forums and boardgame players lack the ability to evaluate how great an emotional response something warrants. This often comes from either a lack of life experience or poor cognitive skills, and both of these are extremely common in tabletop gaming.

Did you lose a person close to you? That warrants a greater emotional response than whether your alignment table has 9 squares or 4. With a mature perspective comes the realization that hating everything that isn't ideal would naturally result in you committing suicide the first time you stub your toe.

This affect has less to do with Veeky Forums and more to do with people getting butthurt because they don't understand life.

>No, it's up to everyone at the table, not just DM
But most of the onus lies on the DM in general simply because most of the time, the DM is the one player with the most experience at the table in TRPGs in general, and is also usually the one introducing the player to the game.

If you had a table of 5 people who were all equally experienced and similarly talented in D&D, then it would be on the whole table. But often times, it's
>One guy who's played the game for years and the only one who read the book cover to cover
>Two people who only know how to play through sitting in at other people's tables and letting that DM teach them how to play
>Two more people who have NEVER played the game at all and are there because someone invited them and they were curious.

So, no, it's usually up to the DM to decide how he wants the game to go.

Sure he may be stupid as a brick, but Gervais and Merchant aren't any smarter, which is fucking worrying.

>BUT HE SAID "At what point are we all just Google?" AND THAT SEEMS KIND OF A SILLY THING TO SAY WITHOUT THE CONTEXT HE EXPLICITLY GAVE.

>All those times Merchant or Gervais are just straight up fucking wrong, but won't admit it because the one correcting them is Karl.

>

Gygax hated Basic.

Some of us have had bad experiences galore with a specific system. I've never had a fun Pathfinder sesh.

He hated paying Arneson for Basic, there's a difference. (Not that you could really tell, though)

Or maybe some people just want to watch the world burn.

>He hated paying Arneson for Basic,
OD&D =/= Basic

Arneson had fuck all to do with Basic.
Basic was Holmes, Moldvay, Cook, and Mentzer.

TSR had to publish the Basic line and pay royalties to Arneson as part of their court settlement. Gygax wrote AD&D specifically to get around that settlement. (Not that I entirely blame him, Arneson was clearly a fantastic DM and a cool guy, but kind of a load when it came to anything else, especially when trying to run a business)

Karl is stupid, plainly, and rather set in his ways. However, Karl is not a mean person, and is willing to understand new things even if he is stubborn.

Ricky is Snobbish to the point that he cannot handle being corrected. He is however quite smart, but he is also an asshole.

I can completely understand the 'face' of RP that the D&D problem presents.

I guess what I don't get is how people on Veeky Forums go into random groups of people, irl or online to play tabletop games with.

I personally have played a lot of systems, D&D, Fantasy Craft, Pathfinder, Scion, Werewolf, Vampires, Firefly, Buffy, Cyberpunk, Pirates, Sky Pirates as well as several home brewed and locally published systems by one of our friends.

Currently my favourite systems are the Scion (Whitewolf) and Firefly/Pirates (Cortex) systems. Though I do love Cyberpunk as well.

The thing is, I've played these games for about 10 - 12 years now but I played them with my friends group at the time, which has retained around three core members and gained/lost others as you simply do in life.

They were always friends first and joined rp later because it was a mutual interest or something they showed interest in but never had a chance to. We rotate our GM's all the time depending on who has a story they want to tell.

The hilarious trope I do see is the one about the lack of women, when in our group, at one point, we had five female players to four males. Though as I said, life gets in the way of things and now while we have three active female roleplayers, we only have two in the current game compared to six males.

For me when you have a good solid group, more stories come out, more systems are played and the better experience it is for everyone.

Whereas online and such it seems like D&D/D&D clones or nothing and no one truly gets exposed to the wealth of objectively good systems out there.

Just my thoughts.

While I agree with most of it, I honestly think Martials being useless outside of combat is a problem DMs and creative players both could solve. A Fighter couldn't teleport across a chasm or make the party fly over it, but they COULD fire an arrow with a rope attached so the party could move over it that way. And that takes two things any character should have anyway and a very slight amount of brainpower.

Of course most players have the creativity of a vegetative monkey with down syndrome, so.

I really only have a beef with 3.PF. Anything else, even if I don't like it, if that's what you want to play then go for it. But 3.PF has retarded an entire generation of gamers, indoctrinating them into a system that is itself not only bad, but that teaches them bad habits they carry over into other games. Power gaming, rules lawyering, minmaxing, combat fixation, antisocial table behavior - all of these existed before 3.PF but it has metastasized these behaviors like no other game before or since. These invalids have been warping the RPG market for almost TWENTY FUCKING YEARS now with this stupid dogshit system.

It creates the illusion that all games are as expensive and laborious to learn and play as 3.PF, discouraging gamers weaned on it from learning something new even if it would fit their needs better. This is why you see so many "We're going to do X... but in 3.PF" posts - these people are afraid learning a new game requires poring over multiple 300+ page tomes, memorizing arithmetic and mastering character generation, only to sit around performing basic algebra for five hours per encounter.

Then because of sunk costs, people still play this dogshit game in droves because they've dropped hundreds of dollars on the monthly splatbook every month for five years - they have a monthly fucking subscription to Paizo's garbage, you can't make this shit up and you can't convince them to drop it because that would imply they wasted their money.

Imagine if 3.PF just ceased to be. The books and SRDs vanished, people remembered playing it but not how. Imagine how many more games they would play, imagine how the market would react. Instead we're going to be stuck with this monster for another 20 years, neckbeards in retirement communities screaming at each other about attacks of opportunity and five foot steps and kitsune occultists and who even knows what other degenerate bullshit Paizo will have shat out by then.

Fuck!

>Of course most players have the creativity of a vegetative monkey with down syndrome, so.

Pic related: player problem solving.

>I guess what I don't get is how people on Veeky Forums go into random groups of people, irl or online to play tabletop games with.

I've recently moved several states and have found myself looking for a new group, and I'm honestly right with you about having no idea how to make a new group happen.

I've managed to find new wargames circle pretty easy because worst case you just have to deal with a caustic person, but finding a new rpg group is going to be tricky considering that I don't know too many people and you have to dance around lots of different playstyles, acceptance levels, tastes, etc. I ended up growing my high school and college groups because I've always been the guy with the books, but without school providing easy friends I'm pretty much casting my rod out and hoping for the best.

I'm trying my region's Meet Up group for rpgs, and with any luck I might be joining a nWoD Changeling game, but even then I have no guarantees for what I'm getting into.

>anymore
There has never been a time when D&D was not the majority of the RPG field on its own.

This is a common myth but untrue, the major lawsuit was Arneson suing for royalties from the AD&D books and getting them. Yes, Gygax was asshurt about this, but AD&D wasn't written to "get around" a settlement that didn't yet exist at that time, it preceded the court cases and was written to make a clearer, complete version of OD&D with all the supplements and the best content from The Dragon, leveled up in terms of physical production values into a set of hardbacks.

This is also incorrect, Gygax and Tim Kask have both stated repeatedly that they were the ones who went through OD&D and decided what to put in Basic and what to keep Advanced-only. Basic was a Gygax design in its essentials and he had nothing against it, any more than what he had against all TSR products after he got ousted, anyway.

I will never understand why Karl "I AM MERELY PRETENDING TO BE RETARDED" Pilkington is funny to some people.

Because retarded or not, he's pretty fucking funny.

what movie user?

Right now. D&D is the third best seller, behind Pathfinder and that new Starwars shit.

someone is triggered here

I don't know, I really, really enjoyed stuff like Mentzer's weapon mastery. Those rules just need more damage for the rogue, DnD style ( but you can overcome it with weapon mastery) and different Rogue tables.

>Power gaming, rules lawyering, minmaxing, combat fixation,

These are problems because you play with shitheads. Socially competent people enjoy 3.PF.

>All those times Merchant or Gervais are just straight up fucking wrong, but won't admit it because the one correcting them is Karl.
Example?

>no system must be popular

The prophecy is very specific about the species, size and amount of hysteric poisonous crabs comprising the projectile hitting each and every person in the groin, regardless of gender.

AFAIK, "let-the-world-burn" people don't want to be in the building when it torches down.

That's not what he's saying and you know it.

Nothing stopping a caster from doing that, either. The root of the problem is that your methods to interact with noncombat without resorting to Mother-May-I are limited to: class abilities(including spells/powers/any variant of them), magic items, skills, and attribute checks. Martials very rarely have access to #1, they have less access to silver bullets by way of #2 because of magic weapon/armor money sinks that do not exist for others, and #3 and #4 absolutely fucking suck and are extremely restrictive about what you can do with them without support from #1 or #2.

Of course, this is only a major problem in one edition of the game.

The guy he was responding to has been ruining pretty much any game design or 3.5 thread for the past few months so I'd say that's pretty justified.

what the fuck is happening in that pic
what I can guess is that Samson is tying foxes together at their tails and setting their tails on fire

But why?

he light them on fire and ran them through some guys fields because they cheated him out of marrying their sister, I think

Veeky Forums is made up of people.

Long Tail distribution means most people, along with most systems, are shit.

By this reasoning it follows that most people's opinions of systems, their opinions of other people with opinions, as well as their ability to handle all these opinions... are shit.

Butthurt is one way to characterize the inability to handle reality.

So that's why.

Ricky is an arsehole, but at least has the common courtesy to not hide it. Merchant is a bitter little cunt.

Pathfinder IS D&D, you mong.
Also, sales don't reflect player numbers at a 1:1 rate, eg the piles of grogs who still play their same AD&D game they've been running since 1981.

>tfw the timeline for what constitutes a grog gets closer and closer to mine all the time
Oh god one day I'll be old.

>the timeline for what constitutes a grog gets closer and closer
Huh? The last AD&D book came out in 1979, it's really hard to have been running an AD&D game much longer than that user said. Plus, D&D itself only came out in '74; sure, those are the archgrognards, but they can't be the ONLY guys who count.

That being said,
>Oh god one day I'll be old.
Yes, that's how it works.

He's not pretending, m8. They did a special where he took an iq test.

He's literally borderline mentally retarded.

>it's not possible to fake an IQ test for the purposes of TV hilarity

That said, if you're right it means Gervais and Merchant are making a good living off mocking the retarded. Sounds like a great opening for fucking them over.

We're the everything of traditional games, it's not like we have other boards.

Well, I'm the guy you're talking about and I don't go to any of those threads. But I guess if I sounded like some guy who's dumping his hot opinions all over those threads, then I guess I understand why he was so mad.

...

>TV is truth

Oh you know, all those times they said things I didn't like. If you voice an opinion with conviction that I disagree with then you are a loudmouthed asshole.

Lol. You didn't "have" to

I agree.
This is why I can never enjoy war movies. They're not even actually trying to kill each other, they're just pretending. But I guess some people really are retarded enough to enjoy shit like that.

autism was a huge meme, but in this instance it was literally autism. "all the time" was a handful of autistic posters who needed to be "right" about what system is "best".

>why is Veeky Forums so butt hurt
Because 90% of us don't have perfect lives

>had to

>Why is OP so butthurt by big black cocks getting stuffed up his ass all the time?

OP is Milo?

"stop liking what I don't like" is Veeky Forums's motto for life in all things

bruh I feel sorry for you

D&D's popularity has obviously triggered some insecurity in you. And because it's popular, all the other things you don't like in TRPGs you attribute to D&D because its convenient. You're upset because the systems you like aren't popular so you wear that like a badge of honor and you hate the things that are popular.

which particular system did he evangelize? you seem pretty certain about it

Dat projecting dude holy shit

How is he projecting? Projecting's not just a fancy word for "NO U!"

You literally projected your whole argument on to him, none of what you said was even hinted at in the other user's post.

I asked you a question, and now I'm the one projecting? You're typing gibberish now!

What? I was explaining how you were projecting on the other user. You literally formed an argument based around traits you projected on to that poster, not what they actually put forth as an argument.

Can you read bro?

I would care alot less if the nature of ttrpgs didn't force me into a choice of either don't play at all, play with people online who I don't know and are probably bad, or play a system I dislike.
I hate some systems because their existence pretty much prevents me from playing the ones I'm most interested in.

>You literally formed an argument

I didn't make any argument, I just said you didn't know what projection meant. You seem to have me confused for the other guy.