Warmachine/Hordes General

Where's the fucking Grymkin spoilers.

2d terrain is alright at cons, with one 64 person event, have fun making and transporting modeled terrain for 32 boards. Shit just gets worse if you have more events or more players.

buy the kit + chinaman spare body

Tournaments usually have their own terrain on the spot. And 40K terrain rules are worse yet they never have an issue fielding it.

Cuz the only thing people run are flyers
I'm kind of curious about this. Is it because so many models can ignore it entirely? Or because there's no real rules that interact with it?
Probably because of the charge rules.

Still, I'd like to run a small game using a lot of impassable buildings and see how it goes.

It's mostly because the terrain is so binary. The game requires precision movement, so the halving rule is a huge hassle, and with a game that can be won and lost on fractions of an inch, that shit matters. That's why people play with 2D terrain, and with generally flat terrain. The game does not encourage close enough, and so players conform to that.

Pathfinder is way too powerful and widespread in how it interacts with terrain, because it basically ignores most of the drawbacks.

But this is, for example, why you don't see tables just straight full of terrain, because that shit is disgusting to try and play with.

If you want to know how fucked up terrain is, rules wise, look no farther than Wurmwood's feat, especially the old one. Making a 14" area a forest is absolutely crippling to so many models.

That's fair enough. I suppose a game that's completely random for rules but scenic is far superior.

Games like 40k? To determine a winner, you might as well roll a d6 each and the higher roll wins. Oh, but all that 3d terrain looks awesome.

I'm a new skorme player, what would swap the mammoth out for in that rasheth list?

The closest would probably be 2x Cannoneer and another Soulward. That should play reasonably similar to the Mammoth.

I don't like combining two slow lists, so I'd change the X1 list up a bit. You don't need Karax and Cetrati, one of them is enough. You likely don't need Incindiarii at all. Free up some points and get some Ferox in there.

As for beasts I'd either go full brick and replace Molik with something more tanky or go full offense and replace the Sentry with a Gladiator.

Is Steamroller 2017 out yet?

I feel like it's going to suck. And I'm usually positive about everything mk3.

I play with at least the official amount of terrain and from time to time with full blown scenic tables and I must say, lots of terrain encourages interesting tactics. My favourite one was city full of impassable buildings that would create a maze of streets and seing people (or getting to do it myself) try their best to time flanks on multiple small clusters of models from different routes was an absolute charm. Back to the main topic, there are rarely situations where 3d terrain would screw you over as you virtually never toe into elevation and of you are not a landwhale there will be no issue with leaning over the table to see past obstructions.

As of mk3 40k became the more tactical game. You can still take busted models and rolfstomp, but if you agree to both bring balanced forces it is about planning, positioning and strategy. With how dumbed down wmh became after transition and the power attack errata, the game comes down to model A moves directly towards model B, the model with better statline wins. There is no more gotchya, no more tricks, no more setting up Rube Goldberg machines, way less decisions in listmaking and the terrain has less impact so you dont play around it. It went from three hypothetical layers of startegy to about one.

hey mangs, i play warhammer 40k but i want to get on warma/hordes because everyone here on tijuana plays it and just 3 of my friends play 40k, how would you recomend to get into this game? is it any similar to warhammer?

It's not all that much like 40k. It's more of a game and somewhat less of a hobby (though that depends on you alone).

You best start out by having one of the existing players (ask for a Press Ganger if available) show the game to you. Then decide on a faction, get a battle box and learn, learn, learn.

>It's more of a game and somewhat less of a hobby
What's the difference?

Warmahordes being less about YOUR DUDES with custom weapons and loadouts and more about taking set-in-stone units and characters?

Yes that. But on the other hand, the game is much more solid. Playing RAW is not shunned because the rules are (in >99% of cases) robust enough to handle it. The balance is, while not perfect, a whole lot better and the gameplay just offers way more depth.

40k players will initially be confused, because Warmachine has rules that make sense.

Trolls don't need mercs for any utility, so any beast-oriented list is better in theme. Take whelps, free whelps are very good.

Yeah, because positioning some clusterfuck melee with multiple units/heavies around 3d hill/ruins when objectives are involved and clock is ticking is so fun and not stressfull at all.

>put models on hill next to whatever you want to melee
>roll dice
>end your turn
Are you really that thick?

>rules that make sense.

well i dont want to fight over this but in the 2 years that i have played 40k i havent been confused by the rules, the only rule that my group didnt get fully arround was the infiltrating stuff and one from a model called hellbrute, but besides that i dont really get that meme

The point is most likely that they are inefficient (lots of rules to do very little) and tend to have a lot of loopholes.

Lots of Waynes Dorkshop rules are written sloppily and without consideration of interaction with other rules, leading to lots of confusion and broken loopholes (like two seperate squads of guys giving each other cover saves when placed into each other in 5th ed).

In Warmachine, pretty much every single dispute can be solved by opening the rule book. No interpretations, no guesswork, it's factual.

>No interpretations, no guesswork
To be fair here, it's more like "very little interpretation". For example the Drag rule allows you to push a model "any distance", but that is ruled to be "the largest possible distance", which I don't really consider RAW.

how hard would a recast of the chassis be?

>To be fair here, it's more like "very little interpretation"
Yeah, the Infernal rulings are a thing, but I think they have to be. Writing a ruleset that is 100% immune to all rules lawyering is probably not possible in a game this size.

But there's no comparison to the average level of rules GW has put out over the years. They've had a few real hits (Epic Armageddon springs to mind), certainly... but more often than not, trying to play a game with GW rules is like trying to create a precision machine part from a drawing made on the back of a bar napkin with a crayon that you found crumpled in your pocket after an all night bender.

>how hard would a recast of the chassis be?
They have no parts in common. Converting one of the Kings into the other would be far, far more hours of work than it would take to get the money to buy one. If that's your thing, fine, just know what you're getting in to.

Finally finished my Blood of Martyrs.

And Scourge of Heresy. Now to paint eight more heavies.

Nice.
I like the Scourge of Heresy better but they are both nice

Thank you very much. Scourge's sword was very fun to paint.

I used to paint my Protectorate mostly white, but it was destroying my will to live. Went primarily red instead.

I salute your ability to slog through the white, fellow Menite user

I just picked up the Menoth battlebox this weekend. What would be solid models to go along with that? Also I wasn't very impressed with the model quality in the battlebox, my Castigator came out bad since the pipes on one side couldn't even be bent so they would connect in the right place.

Reckoner/Castigator/Sanctifier chassis molds are pretty brutal, user -- there are really bad mold lines along the Menofix on the shoulders, too.

Beyond the Mk3 battlebox, I'd recommend:

- Choir of Menoth
- Crusader/Templar/Vanquisher kit
- Vassal of Menoth x2 (I wouldn't have recommended these in Mk3 a few months ago, but I find myself running in theme quite a bit, and two of these is a no brainer, and they're very cheap -- iirc, MSRP is like $7)

Man, how disappointing for you that your lazy bait didn't get any responses.

Have a (You).

I hate to be that asshole, but thin your paints.

Those look good, but you'd take it to the next level if you couldn't see the texture of the paints on the model.

I loathe white without an airbrush.

With an airbrush it works a lot better; base coat everything brown, and do zenithal highlights up to white at the very top, and you get a nice, easy, and fast white that looks pretty good.

On a side note does Malekus work best with heavy jack or infantry armies?

Malekus is actually pretty versatile, and one of the few casters I regularly play out of theme, because he wants a bunch of things.

He supports infantry with Ignite (though in this meta I'd recommend against melee infantry with him), he supports jacks with Open Fire (RIP mk2 ancillary attack), and Scourge can win you games -- either by knocking down the enemy caster, or letting you trivially hit some damn DEF 14 warpwolves.

(He's really going to love the Revelator once it releases)

The last list I tried with him was:

Malekus
- Hierophant
- Hand of Judgment
- Reckoner
- Reckoner
- Eye of Truth

Choir of Menoth (Min)
Deliverer Sunburst Crew
Deliverer Sunburst Crew
Thorn Gun Mages
Thorn Gun Mages

Simply for fun, this list breaks a few of my 'guiding principles', in that it has no shield guards and no real protection for Malekus. It's built to maximize the feat turn.

Nice, that makes sense. I actually have an airbrush setup, but I'm a big dumb idiot who only uses it for priming, because I haven't been able to put the time in to learn how to use it properly (two kids, job, etc. etc.)

It's closer to card games than warhammer as in play meta list or get fucked. Playing something else is like trying to compete in constructed mtg with draft deck. The trade-off is that decisions matter a lot so you have a lot of room to improve on your tin soldier autism tactics.

>implying 'balanced' lists win in 40k

is there any way to play a "balanced," constructed format in Warmahordes? Has anyone attempted something like this?

It's called ADR.

I think that if everyone was forced to play with the current ADR casters and rules, there would be close to perfect balance.

Speaking of Witch, does anyone have a source for the picture of the Old Witch they used for this picture?

I hear you, I've got three kids myself and haven't had time to sit down and paint in over a month.

In any case, what I do for white is:

- Prime brown (I use Vallejo's brown airbrush primer)

- Hit the model fairly well with Menoth White Base with the airbrush, but only angling the airbrush so I'm spraying horizontal with the base or pointing downwards.

- Hit the model with Menoth White Highlight, but only angling downward, maximum of about a 45 degree angle.

- Hit the model with white, spraying only straight downward

This gives a pretty good white; go lighter or heavier on the Menoth White Highlight and White if you want it lighter or darker, and that does a pretty good white for the whole model.

I'm still not good enough to do serious detail work with an airbrush (although I'm soon going to try to get a decent Ret color scheme that requires some finer airbrush work), but just doing the simple layered zenithal-style airbrushing gets you a nice-looking base coat that has the basic shading done pretty quick and it looks nice. You may, of course, want to deepen the shadows in stuff like cloaks, but it makes most surfaces that are solid colors look pretty nice.

ADR is actually good now that Una2 isn't a world-beater.

If Una was still old Una, I would not have suggested ADR.

Don't recognize the witchpic. Could be some of the new art they had done for the command books. A lot of it got used on the errata'd cards... seems like there's quite a bit.

I'd agree WMH is closer to card games like Magic than it is to warhammer, but not for the same reasons. You absolutely need to have a plan for your list and put together good combos and synergies to win, which is very magic-like. But it's more like the old wild-west days of Magic than modern MTG. There's no "deck" in WMH that plays itself for instance - a good player can still win even if he comes up against the so-called "hard counter" for his list(s).

And even though the net lists are popular, there's still a lot of variety... you're quite likely to run into a list you've never heard of at basically any tournament you attend. I mean, there's something approaching 200 casters in the game at this point, nearly all of which are viable for competitive play. Some are more powerful than others, of course, but the dark horse factor is a big deal in this game... failing to understand what the list across the table is trying to do will almost always cost you the game.

Returning from early Mk2 and never really got into the game. Is Cryx still a cunt army to play under Mk3?

All I see is complaining about the faction, and I'm curious if this is players throwing a shitfit about being rebalanced, or legitimate complaints about being gutted.
A brief look at the College and they look pretty neat, but they are always placed at the bottom of Tier lists and complain about losing their identity.
Can any Cryx players please advise on:

> Battle Box quality
> Fun to play
> Fun to play against
> Internal balance

Cheers

So I played Skorne against Baldur2 today, and seriously what the fuck how am I meant to beat that? 14/20 heavies? I can barely hit them never mind actually damaging them.

Baldur2 is the weakest part of that list. Try to kill him if you can. Otherwise always boost to hit and realize Baldur2 doesn't have an str buff so he'll have problems killing you back.

>he'll have problems killing you back
Nigger fuck right off his shit just warps strength, gets primal, and I lose a heavy.

Have a Warlock that either MAT-fixes or POW-fixes warbeasts, then piece trade.

I was playing Rasheth and I couldn't touch him. My Mammoth physically couldn't reach his beasts because he was placing a wall so that I couldn't get over it or reach his stuff. Without the wall I wouldn't have had that big of a problem, but it kept cockblocking me. And holy fucking shit Woldwyrds need to be deleted from the game for how disgusting they are. Strong animus, a strong ability, and a ROF3 gun? I pay the same points for a fucking Cyclops Raider man how is this fair?

So new PP forums.

I'm thinking one of two things is at work here:

>1) The tendency to see problem you are currently experiencing as very important.

Managing their forums is unmitigated Work, now. They have to cut somebody a paycheck over it, which is definitely a threshhold to cross for topic awareness. Somebody then says "Fix this, this is important, it's ok to break some things to fix it- they aren't as important as this is.", and there you are.

>2) West Coast hiring culture

Hey who isn't on Facebook!? How are you supposed to Connect and pass around kitten memes without it?

Play Mak1

Bugs.

What do they do against 14/20s?

Fight them. Your real problem is going to be threat range and related to that surviving positioning, I think.

I'll go in, fail to kill, then they'll crush me on the backswing is what it feels like. I'm tempted to just run this miserable pile of memes.

>(Naaresh 1) Master Ascetic Naaresh [+32]
- Archidon [10]
- Titan Sentry [15]
- Cyclops Savage [7]
- Cyclops Savage [7]
- Molik Karn [19]
Nihilators (max) [15]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (max) [7]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]
Tyrant Zaadesh [4]
- Titan Gladiator [15]

Cryx player here. Short version is that, while not gutted, Cryx is nowhere near being the bogeyman faction it was in early Mk2. Some of the whining is legitimate, but there's also a lot of BS from people who are just butthurt about not being top faction anymore. To your questions:

> Battle Box quality
Really good, probably one of my favorite battleboxes from any faction (along with the Circle one). The new caster is very beginner friendly but also strong enough to stay interesting. And our jacks are actually useful now. Having two heavies in the box makes it a lot of fun against other bboxes.

> Fun to play
It's down to your taste, but I enjoy Cryx a lot. They're truly the glass cannon faction now, but still hit harder across the board than just about anything. If the style appeals to you, I think you can have a lot of fun with it.

> Fun to play against
Cryx can still be a little tilting, being an infantry heavy faction in a meta that doesn't really build for that currently. But nobody's going to accuse you of cheating anymore... if anything we're an underdog.

> Internal balance
Mixed. The balance is pretty good for jacks, lots of interesting decisions there. We have lots of strong casters as always. Unit choices are dominated by Satyxis Raiders currently, and the most popular caster is probably Coven. Our biggest issue right now is gunlines (always has been, in some sense), so things that handle that are popular. How important that is to you personally depends a lot on your regular opponents.

>So I played Skorne against Baldur2 today, and seriously what the fuck how am I meant to beat that?
You have options. I know from experience that a Xerxis1 brick can grind him out, although it's definitely a bit of a shoving match. Our other attritiony casters like Makeda1 and Naaresh can probably overwhelm his defensive tech and drag him down too, but I haven't tested it.

Other route you can go is take one of the Mortality casters and bring those wolves down to earth. Morg2 is also capable of getting a kill piece onto Baldur... he's usually the weakest link in his own list.

Might be worth looking at Zaal1 as well. Most skorne models under Last Stand will tear a 14/20 warpwolf to pieces, and coming out ahead on points against warpwolves is not hard.

>I know from experience that a Xerxis1 brick can grind him out
Funny you should say that because I was playing Xerxis1 in the first game against him, and realised immediately that it was a HORRIFYING matchup. Woldwyrds get an extra dice on attack and damage against anything with an upkeep, so Cetrati can never receive Defender's Ward. And if you can't even put a strong brick spell on your brick unit, what's the point? +2ARM isn't worth taking an extra dice of damage and paying for the privilege. He went first, ran Woldwyds in front of my Cetrati, and proceeded to laugh them off the table turn 2. I also suffered from the problem of bringing anti-infantry tech against someone who didn't bring any infantry. It was like playing against Amon; half of my shit is useless, and the other half can't get enough work done.

Zaal1 does have game against him, but it's a game. Basically you are trading up incrementally, with the constant danger of a big swing of value suddenly occurring against you because of Circle Threat Weirdness, which will put you firmly on the back foot for the rest of the match.

On the bright side who gives a shit when your screening infantry dies en masse- just means more fully boosted heavy contacts come feat turn.

>Who gives a shit when 20 point of your models are trivially wiped off the table

>Karax cost 20p

Zaal1, if he's getting multiple warbeast-on-warbeast contacts the turn after.

Mauler is pretty much done, just need to wash the hair, nails, and stones
This was fun to paint

>Baldur just puts a wall down so my heavies can't reach his
>Now you have no screen and didn't kill any heavies

And another shot

then git gud

That's interesting. How many woldwyrds was he running? I agree they can definitely be a problem and you should hold Def Ward until you deal with them. I've faced them in a Wurmwood list and got caught off guard before.

I'm assuming he's not putting Roots on them outside of feat turn? One saving grace with Woldwyrds is they're fairly squishy. They can go down to even low POW shooting.

>One saving grace with Woldwyrds is they're fairly squishy
They're no squishier than any other light at 13/16. He was running two of them and two Sentry Stones. Not even my heavies are safe from those dickbags. Putting my own shooting light against a Woldwyrd is embarassing. RAT6? ROF3? POW12? Strong animus? Strong abilities? Meanwhile for the same points I get ROF1, POW12, RAT5.

It's pretty much just them pulling a GW and trying to get some damage control on the negativity surrounding some aspects of the product.

It's like that for both players. Baldur can lose a ton of stuff to Last Stand if he makes a mistake. A single swordsman can almost one-shot a rooted warpwolf under power swell and last stand, as a for instance... and the whole unit costs less than the beast.

The big point swing tends to work more for you than against, because Baldur typically has his points concentrated in a few expensive pieces, whereas Zaal prefers hordes and hordes of crappy models.

>A single swordsman can almost one-shot a rooted warpwolf under power swell and last stand
This is factually incorrect. Jesus fuck you're not even close what the FUCK are you smoking? Assuming you hit, it's either PS12+4d6 so 6 damage on average, or 2xPS9+4d6 for 6 damage again.

Hang on Last Stand is additional. Christ even then it's like 9.5 damage per model. It's fine but the aforementioned Woldwyrd will have no problem picking off that UA.

>They're no squishier than any other light at 13/16.
Which is fairly squishy. What's your point? We all know the Raider sucks - comparing that piece of garbage to a beast that's actually decent is pointless.

You can absolutely shoot down Woldwyrds if Baldur doesn't root them. A canoneer will reliably knock off about half its boxes. Either of our main shooting units can drop one a turn (although incindiarii rely on fire to finish it off on average rolls). Even the stupid slingers can kill one, thanks to erosion.

>Either of our main shooting units can drop one a turn (although incindiarii rely on fire to finish it off on average rolls).
On average rolls a full unit of Incindiarii will deal like 12 damage to a Woldwyrd, then the fire will deal another 3 if it doesn't fall off. Don't forget you need to hit, and Skorne can't hit.

And pathfinder on the charge. But yeah, protecting that UA looks like a chore. And remember if you are upkeeping Last Stand (sans mk2 Spell Slave Marketh, you pretty much have to be- either that or play Zaal1 forward, which is risky) Woldwyrds get turned up to 11.

I said "can", not "on average". There's a big difference between max dice and average dice, especially since a swordsman under last stand is one of the few models that can get to five dice damage.

The potential top end is (PS 9 + 5 x 6 - ARM 20) for the first attack, plus (PS 9 + 4 x 6 - ARM 20) for the second = 32 damage. That's enough to kill a feral. No, that won't usually happen, but the fact that it CAN is something the baldur player has to account for.

Of course average damage is lower, but you might want to double check your math there too. PS12 + 4d6 vs ARM 20 is not 6 average damage. That's the old "2d6 - 7 = 0" tricking you. By my math it takes about 2.5 swordsmen with last stand and power swell to kill a rooted wolf on average rolls, and they don't need to charge to do it.

Oh right so all of my problems fade away if I calculate damage based on boxcars.

>That's the old "2d6 - 7 = 0" tricking you
No but seriously the average roll on a single d6 is 3.5. I'm being rused so hard right now and I don't give a fuck.

My mental-napkin math with squishy unquantifiable gamestate offsets tells me 3 Swordsmen on powerswell-Last Stand average, you'll want 4 or seriously good on-demand cleanup (Archidon?) for comfort.

Do you guys seriously not know this stuff? Because if not, the first time you see weaponmaster infantry in action, your jaw is going to be on the floor. Yes, the average roll on a d6 is 3.5. That does NOT mean the average damage Dice x 3.5 + POW - ARM, because dice don't work like that. Dice spikes shift the average upward, and the impact becomes more dramatic the more dice you add.

"2d6 - 7 = 0" is the classic example, because it's so obviously wrong, even if you're not a math person. A 2d6 can roll any of 36 possibilities, 15 of which are an 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12. All of those will do more than 0 damage at -7, so the average cannot be 0.

What is he primalling that causes you to lose a heavy? what beasts are you using?

>squishy unquantifiable gamestate offsets
It's definitely a valid consideration. Actual board state trumps theorymachine every day of the week, and twice on Sunday. For me, anyhow, not everybody has time to play on Sunday.

Only point I was trying to make is that Swordsmen under Last Stand are fuckin terrifying, even for Baldur2.