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>Question
What was the most "Oh shit" (when you realized you fucked up) moment you had in one of your games?
FIRST FOR MAGE SUPREMACY
When our attempt to wipe out a bunch of Vamps accidentally killed about 12 innocents when we discovered far too late that the building had been used to contain a relatively significant amount of explosives.
>The Grand Maw in Oblivion was also the sibling of the Judeo-Christian God.
Source on that?
>You realize that God is only supreme within the bounds of Masquerade and Fallen, right? Each game line has their own concept and version of a supreme being. The Triat is considered above God in Ascension, and Mages unite with an extradimensional omniversal entity upon Ascension, according to select lore.
No, in oWoD, God (the Old Testament one) is pretty much the supreme authority and creator force in the setting. Everything that's happened, everything that exists, is because he either made it or allows it. I know a lot of folks will take this to just kickstart another "No, my splat is more powerful than yours" but honestly, God isn't part of the splat, he's just the entity that literally made it all and is above it all.
For example, a lot of people seem to forget that once upon a time the Garou were angels.
I think a lot of people rebel against this part of oWoD because they're not fond of the Christian faith, so they project ways to somehow 'beat' God at his own game, which isn't something you can do, because this isn't even like the thing with the "You lose" sheet that Caine got, this is just plain no go ground.
>my splat is right
>your splat is wrong
Grow up. God is shit when it comes to Apocalypse, Ascension and Wraith. I'm sorry.
This is why magefags love to troll vampfags without remorse.
The Triat is supreme in Apocalypse. You sound a lot like Awakening tards with their cosmology supremacy ideals. You're not right about anything other than your own opinions.
But see, that's the thing, I'm not favoring one splat over another. I don't really care all that much. People will play what they want to play, their GMs will tell the stories they want, the way they want it.
I'm just saying that at the end of the day, no matter how some folks might dislike it, God is the ultimate authority in oWoD.
>God is the ultimate authority in oWoD
Except he's just not. Not outside the bounds of Masquerade and Fallen. You're attempting something very crude and baseless by enforcing your preferred splat over the rest. It's coming off as a bit zealous.
>preferred splat
I don't have a preferred splat though.
I have never played Vampire or the Fallen.
I have just read through the books. But I've also read through Apocalypse, Oblivion, Ascension, Hunter, Orpheus, Mummy and the Kindred of the East.
God doesn't have the same face everywhere as he does in Masquerade and the Fallen, there are separate entities that clearly exist separate of him with immense power, yes, but once you look past all that, the thing is that the whole thing has him as the alpha and the omega.
>coming off a bit zealous
Funny you should say that, given that I'm not religious at all.
>the thing is that the whole thing has him as the alpha and omega
Depends entirely on the game line.
>Funny you should say that, given that I'm not religious at all
The fact that you went straight to that conclusion, rather than considering the definition and phrase of "it's an expression", is causing me to form the assumption that you're not efficient to keep this conversion going.
>Depends entirely on the game line.
But it doesn't though.
But it does.
>I have never played Vampire
Calling bullshit on that
>I have just read through the books
Evidently, you didn't.
>I'm not religious at all
You are so fucking Christian it hurts.
Can you fags just drop the stupid cosmology arguments? Most inter-splat questions like God v.s. Archmages are up to the ST to resolve. And honestly most people don't care about this inter-splat shenanigans, we just wanna discuss our spooky monster adventures.
Few actually wants to discuss that, sadly. They prefer talking of how their dad can beat up the other guy's dad.
>You are so fucking Christian it hurts.
Nope. I just read through the books and saw what's what.
But that's not true.
Well both you and I want to. So what's stopping the us from having a civil discussion? What was the last game you played in/ST? What was it about, and any good stories from it?
My Malk burned down the haven he shared with his sire after some goons tried to kill them to "hide the evidence". I'm sure it'll bite me sooner or later, but the game is on pause/reorganization/dying so who knows. What about you?
>God v.s. Archmages
The Caine vs Archmage arguments always boils down to this.
Caine loses hard to the strongest of wizards, so Masquerade players decide to bring out Big G, seeming to think it will validate their gameline despite the fact that God permeates the whole WoD setting, not just Masquerade.
I'm not getting into the "who's the single supreme being" argument. It depends on the splat in question.
People could always answer the question asked in the OP, but I don't think many people do that nowadays.
You fellas seem a bit conflict-hungry. Maybe I can help.
The Living World CoD survey came down lightly on the side of Hunter, so that's what I'm going to work on. Sorry to any eager Mage voters; I'm open to other decisions-by-consensus that may help.
I'm just getting expressions of interest while I set the map and plots rewards etc up, so we have a pool of people to make some communal decisions if necessary. Just keep in mind it's early days; we won't be starting straight away.
Otherwise, if you're keen on playing an online game of Hunter: the Vigil with a persistent setting/flexible schedule, check it out. GM's are always welcome, too. I can rope some of my group into helping me GM, but willing GM's would be preferable.
I've played in 2 Hunter: The Vigil games and 1 on and off VtM series of disjointed one-shots.
In my current game, the second of the two aforementioned Vigil games, my character agreed to duel an ancillae vampire. Despite him being a veteran (like 56 exp and lots of practical that got spent on skills and merits) it's not something he'd regularly do, but his vice is pride and he got magically goaded into it.
Through all three games I played I got tons of stories though. In my first Hunter game I beat a necromancer to death with a flashlight baton.
>wipe out a bunch of Vamps accidentally killed about 12 innocents
KIlling large numbers of undead and sleepers.
That's a job well done!
-Any Mysterium member
>It depends on the splat in question.
>It depends on the ST in question.
FTFY
That's not what I'm debating here. Merely mentioning the fact that Caine loses big-time to Archmages, so in the end it always comes down to Mage vs God instead.
It's the same damn outcome every single time.
>Archmage vs God
We don't have any sufficient material to proclaim a meaningful answer as to who would triumph over the other. It all depends on the Storyteller, and who he/she chooses to be the superior player in the grand scheme of things.
It's all pointless, we just don't know who would win such an encounter. It's been done to death. Can we drop it?
Romance between young virginal Thyrsus maiden and a troubled Blood Talon.
Absolutely Haram
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Whats the best path to have magic based on the 4 seasons? Thyrsus or Acanthus
Both work
>magic based on the 4 seasons
Sounds more like a changeling than a mage.
Mage works on symbols so a fitting shadown name and legacy would work
If you really want a 4 seasons theme, I would stick with Thrysus. Acanthus having Forces as an Inferior Arcanum might be troublesome.
It's especially pointless if you go with that whole "the oWoD is actually about six or seven alternate but very similar universes that can be slipped into" idea that was considered late in the line's life.
Sometimes you slip into the universe where the Judeo-Christian cosmology is more prominent, sometimes you slip into the universe where consensual reality is more prominent, sometimes you slip into a reality where the Triat is more prominent. You'll never know.
I never really got power level discussion, though. If it's not an active discussion of in-game mechanics and balance, it all just comes off as something that rests on ST fiat.
Caine here, AMA
God actually jives really well with Wraith, considering that it's really, really easy to consider the Underworld the First Circle of Hell; this is supported by the fact that the Slayers from D:tF made the Underworld during the Rebellion against God, and the destruction of the Underworld (and the chewing up of the Labyrinth by Grandma) by the Sixth Great Maelstrom let all of the Demons out.
>Source on that?
Not them, but that mention of Grandma being the sibling of God is from Orphan Grinders from Orpheus.
>wod games
Srsly, why not telltale style storytelling qtes? You can do even Mage with that.
Telltale has been pretty bad since the second episode of TWD season 2, or even the Wolf Among Us. It would still be a certain improvement over We Eat Blood.
Because Telltalle is shit.
Because those aren't games.
Those are interactive slideshows, where your choices most assuredly do not matter, and you're going along for the railroading, no matter what.
Honestly, I'd love to see CDPR tackle Vampire: The Dark Ages or Vampire: The Masquerade, but I don't think they're going to want to do anything more than Cyberpunk 2077 at this moment, in order to get it ready for the 2077 release.
>Implying a Choose Your Own Adventure like the preludes is any less railroady
Are there ever UA generals? Because I have been running a bi-weekly campaign for a few months now and I'd enjoy telling some stories.
They're both dogshit ideas for 'games' that morons love to make and morons love to consume. It's fucking idiotic that they tried to launch the digital side of their product when they could have just made a goddamn mod to CKII called 'Prince of the City' or some shit and everybody would have been happy. They outsourced and they're owned by fucking Paradox.
> It would still be a certain improvement over We Eat Blood.
I still agree with this guy however, after saying all of that.
The Mage 'game' was okayish, in that it had something beyond constant railroads and bad-ends.
People bring up the Paradox connection, but it seems like all Paradox wants to do is just take a cut of White Wolf's money and let them figure out what to do with the IP on their own. At this point I don't think they even have White Wolf for the WoD IP, it seems like this whole company just exists as a favor to let Martin Ericsson do what he wants without impacting Paradox's bottom line.
Could you beat an archmage?
>Could you beat an archmage?
Why would I do that?
I have enough problem with my own children...
I don't have time for mortals (no offense).
Occasionally, when someone asks a question about something or wants some rumors to seed in their game.
Usually, it does within a day.
Thank you.
How do you handle faction membership in your games, specifically mage nWod 1e? I'm reading through the different factions and they all seem pretty hardcore/fanatical and 'hands on', how do you keep faction initiation and membership from completely taking over the game and the 'player agency'?
Yeah it seems fucking asinine, they're doing LARPs based around Europe (???) when their biggest fanbase has always been American, this isn't Shadowrun where it's oddly popular with Japanese and German people.
Maybe it'd help if we had like, thread images and a Mega Archive? It's getting a new edition, and while I have stuck with second, third looks pretty cool.
My small issue with nwod mage 1e is that it seems a bit hard to make a campaign that is meant to show the players the wonders of magic in the same rate as their player characters. I mean, if you start off right after the awakening then you've got to deal with a lot of faction and mentor-stuff before the players become more free, if you don't want to skim over it. Not a huge problem I guess, but I'm coming straight from WtF where it seems more 'fast and loose', imo. Any stories on a good way you or your ST has handled campaigns that start at the absolute start of entering the supernatural?
Inter-factional games are really hard outside of a few specific instances (Nossies for Vamps and Anansi arguably for Werewolf) it is really much easier to stick with intra-factional politics...unless you're playing Mage, where there's a great deal of cross over between the Techies and Trads, with a lot of unofficial cobtact going on, with the ever present corrupting influence and interplay of the Nephandi upon both.
The orders believe their work is most important but the council formed out the fact that mages NEED each other, ascencion its a lonely path but loneliness can deliver an awakened to very unwise roads.
you can focus on what each faction brings to the table instead of the reasons why they would fight.
Everything about new White Wolf honestly gives me Goblinworks vibes: there's what they want to do with the IP and then there's the Real Agenda underneath. Only in this case it's just "spreading Nordic LARP" as opposed to "make my dream MMO and slap a familiar IP on top".
For sure, it's all so fishy, they're picking what amounts to this Asshole's favorite books from the old line to update first, and he chooses motherfucking Gypsies? I mean shit, might as well redo do Berlin by Night, London By Night, Freak Legion, Blood Treachery, Masters of the Art and Dirty Secrets if the Black Hand while we're at it. But even beyond that, I get the Lunatics Running the Asylum vibe, where Swedecula is using the company as a vehicle to work out his mid life crisis, thats why he wants to drag WW kicking and screaming back into the 90s; he didn't have hairplugs or a ball and chain back then.
Onyx Path already did the remake to Dirty Secrets
Yes, but if a cabal is comprised of several factions, it seems that there would be a lot of one-on-one required since the factions have different goals and probably want their member-player to do things sometimes.
Keep in mind that within the setting, the Pentacle is an alliance in fact, not just of convenience, particularly the Orders of the Diamond Precept. While the Orders may disagree from time to time, the have common goals and interests that predominate. The setting also reinforces the notion that not only are mixed cabals acceptable, they are actually the norm and encourages. Even the normally sneaky Guardians don't expect their members to spy or inform on their own cabals.
Hm, I guess. Perhaps im going into this with too vampy a mindset.
Mage society is most definitely not vampire society.
Mages are more sociable (like actual humans, not undead predators), willingly ally in common interest and protection, and are by far more meritocratic.
The greatest disagreements are probably between the Diamond Orders and the Free Council, but that hardly ever rises to the level of open, no less violent, conflict.
Cabals are also the cornerstone of mage society, more so than the Orders. Betraying one's cabal, whether to advance your Order's interests or not, will almost certainly result in veritable social excommunication among fellow mages.
The only true hostility on an Order level is between the Pentacle and Seers.
He's talking about taW, not Asc, but a lot of it does still apply.
>that one second of the WoD MMO
Why CCP? Why were you such colossal fuckups?
>In the 70s, all there was was fantasy gaming
>Angry Traveller fan grumbling intensifies
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Not that art again...
Every time I see it, all I can think of is that one little splash and she's going to scald all her sensitive bits.
Put on a damn robe.
Something something Thyrsus heat resistant skin
What clan/bloodline would Kain (from Legacy of Kain) best fit in? What would be a decent, playable equivalent of his character and abilities in Masquerade or Requiem?
Thyrsus something something put on some damn pants.
How is quintessence handled by archmages? I know the rules haven't been updated but it seems like creating a chantry is a massive risk and always has to deal with possible paradox. This is just idle curiosity.
Any World of Darkness news from GDC yet?
Help me out a little here: What is this Kain guy like?
Is he a Ruler who only allows choice for his subjects in so much that they choose what he wants? Clan Ventrue
Is he a walking nightmare, scaring away everyone who thinks of him even when he doesn't wish to? Clan Nosferatu
Is he a walking shadow, knowing all, seeing all, and wielding occult might beyond what all others can? Clan Mehket
Is he a predator in all aspects, from making love to making war, always looking for his next worthy prey and maybe struggling against his inner Beast? Clan Gangrel
Is he... well, he's not Daeva if he looks like that. The Daeva are primarily ruled by passion yes, but that passion usually is at least dressed up nicely and not nearly so... gargoyle-like
Assamite, maybe?
Or Gangrel.
But probably Clan Gary Stue.
Not easily. Archmages have to deal with legendary levels of paradox in a backlash. Aside from that, sometimes a perfectly normal spell that is within their reach is just impossible because fucking with the fundamental nature of a thing is an easy way to get Archmage tier spirits to want to eat you. And yes, that is every spirit past rank 5.
At Archmage levels you either struggle desperately to find ways to do it within the first 5 levels of mastery or you struggle desperately to contain it. And even then, the Pax Arcanumn is always in effect
> What is this Kain guy like?
A marvelous dick, bent on achieving his revenge and free will for himself (and coincidentally everyone else as well). He's also a ruler that ruled with a firm hand, blotted out the sun with smoke stacks so he and his kind could stalk the lands, he's fairly powerful, but not OP.
Oh come on now, why is Kain a gary stue?
Not really of it's a person or thing you can take it into your road and use it on yourself or the target. It's only when the spell effects the world or can't be move into the world that it's an issue.
Sounds like a Lasombra mindset
What exactly IS ascension on the oWoD world?
Is it something like "pulling a buddha" on yourself, do you cease to exist, or do you become a god?
According to the books some mages just fucking ascended, just like that, others study their whole (or more) lifes and nothing happens.
It's similar to the Zen concept of Enlightenment when it comes to how you ascend, some monks study the Sutras, babble them a bunch and work their way up, some get into a fight with their master over a woman, have their prayers beads torn and achieve enlightenment through the sound of the beads clattering against the floor of the brothel. It seems to be if the universe is in line with your particular Praxis at that point, with the Consensus coming close enough to what you believe that you simply Ascend.
Oh, cool. And some ascend while listening to smooth jazz. That shit would be alright
Well yeah, buffing yourself or bringing shit into your magical realm means you get leeway, but there is stuff that even if you can bring it into your personal Road you still can't easily effect it. Like Father Wolf, who doesn't care about the fact he should be dead. He'll still eat most new Archmages and even some seasoned ones. These beings are effectively said to have their Rank in "Self" Arcana which is them basically being able to do whatever the fuck they should be able to do
Pants are tools of the Lie and servants of the Exarchs!
The Pants are a Lie and I can tell myself a better one about fireproof sensitive bits
Ascension is when you realize that the world moves with you.
Now, I'm not trying to get into some undefined hippy bullshit when I say that. In Old World of Darkness a Mage with Quint 1-5 is unable to picture their place in the world perfectly. They exist as the supernatural in a world of the mundane, shunted not out of but to the side of the world at large. They view themselves through the lens of a body and a mind while their Soul sits just to the side where it is tutored by their Avatar. One Ascends to Archmastery when they realize they are capable of doing so and understand exactly what was holding them back can, literally, be moved. When they grasp hold of the tapestry of Quintessence and peer beyond it they Ascend, once more being reunited with their soul in a more perfect being.
Take it from this perspective: A mountain climber is climbing a mountain. He reaches up and grabs some handhold naturally formed in the rock. Eventually he gets to a point he can rest, sit down, etc, and look at his progress. When he looks down he sees nothing but sheer cliff for three of his body length and can't for the life of him figure out how he climbed up. When he goes to continue though, he realizes that he wasn't grabbing onto a ledge or rock on the mountain, but that the mountain was moving in response to his gestures. That is awakening. Ascension is when you realize that the gestures mean nothing, the ropes mean nothing, and the mountain means nothing. The Mountain wasn't moving in response to you, you were moving it.
So basically Neo ascended in the Matrix (locally just in the Matrix)... anyway, how about nWoD (1e)? Do you or someone else know how ascention works there?
>how about nWoD (1e)? Do you or someone else know how ascention works there?
nWoD Ascension is similar, if more understood. You chain your Gnosis higher and higher, eventually culminating in some sort of 'test' appearing before you, as dispensed by a universe yoiu have been working to hone closer and closer to your own views on the Supernal into BOOM! You vanish in a searing flash of light which removes all evidence of you having ever existed...except for some scattered remains such as your former corpse, artifacts and grimoires. The only published ascended being was one of the defining members of the Mysterium. She became Magic/Prime.
Interesting. I'd like for my players to have a possible end-goal, however difficult, that's a thing I like about Promethean as well. It's not likely to happen, but just maybe you can.
You don't have to seek the threshold mind you, if you want you can keep plugging at mysteries forever, since if you fail those final tests you are literally unmade. Not dead, retconned out of existence. Definite risk vs. reward to consider
The best part is you can just run out of arcane xp and fall into the abyss.
Hm, I was just about to say that "Well, we all die anyway" but then I remembered that there's sould in WoD. Yeah, if I was a mage I'd say fuck ascending and let's enjoy existence. That makes it much more scary, for lack of a better word.
Hahahaha, holy shit what? Tell me more.
If you have 3-5 resolve and composure you should be able to do it in 10 arcane xp. Though the dice could tell you to fuck off.
The bigger issue is the one time only roll.
When forging your Golden Road across the abyss to first obtain Arch Mastery in an arcanum you have to make rolls that require you to spend arcane xp. Both failure and running out of arcane xp end poorly. For an archmaster who's already completed said journey a similar fall drops them into the abyss faced with Rank 8 abyssal entities. It pretty much means you're fucked unless someone else intervenes.
But that entire existence is a lie and only by Ascending can you free yourself from it.
You only have to do the abyssal and supernal trial once. By fall you mean cause a massive paradox.
Yeah, breaking your Golden Road with paradox sounded a lot like fucking it up to begin with to me.
Are the demon descent players and storyteller guides worth it? I know I can just get a pdf online but I like physical copies of shit.