/osrg/ - Old School Renaissance General

>If you mean Swords and Wizardry I hate Finch so I won't touch it.

Why?

I disagree with his Quick Primer that gets posted a lot (old school games have thief skills and dice rolls for traps, for fuck's sake), but the other content he's made is pretty solid. In fact I'd recommend Tomb of the Iron God to

The fuck are you bitching about?

I just like weird shit, and they're fucking weird.

Plus, they have good ideas on mechanics.

I get a lot out of Dungeon Of Signs and Monsters and Manuals. They both have a more subtle weirdness and theoretical/academic approach that suits me. Their content has slowed down a lot over the years but that's okay.

Dungeon Of Signs did Prison Of The Hated Pretender and Monsters & Manuals did Yoon-suin.

The snob grog attitude from his Quick Primer crystallized by dislike for him.

Kinda like how Raggi's shtick about
>hoho silly americans here's tits and gore don't be so uptight art is supposed to offend! but racism is bad and wrong and i don't want black people in my game because then i'd have to include slavery and that would be offensive :(

Means I hate LOFTP on principle.

Vampire: The Masquerade Prelude - My Friends are Dead and We all Eat Blood, written by Zak S. features two transsexual vampires, one kills Republicans.

Go ask the weirdoes over here

Oh, not a fan of Vampire, more of a Changeling the Lost guy.

Also, give no shits about their politics.

>Also, give no shits about their politics.
That's good because now the big bads are anti-immigration (Mage's Technocracy) and global warming (Werewolf's Wyrm).

Oh, whoops.
Just posted this in the old thread (page 7), but it's been dead for an hour.

>But all other things neutral why use roll under and not over?
I like it when target numbers are equal to chance of success.
It makes it REALLY easy to see the consequences of a bonus/penalty.
Also, it's less math.

Who cares?

I don't agree with the whole metal gimmick Raggi has going on, but I did listen to this interview and he seems nice:

blasphemoustomes.com/2015/10/27/episode-64-the-good-friends-talk-to-james-raggi-creator-of-lamentations-of-the-flame-princess/

I was surprised to learn he's American and not Finnish.

I guess there are political issues that come up with historical fantasy and I don't know how he addresses them, but Better than Any Man seems fairly brutal. If you want to use issues like racism and slavery, what's stopping you from inserting them? After all, many of these modules are set in historical Europe and they encourage you to do your own research.

S2 - White Plume Mountain

I think it would be interesting if with the Dungeon magazine reviews he took the adventure that was most promising and worked it into something better/converted it to osr. Might not be his bag though, a lot of the time critiques aren't the best at making stuff. Not talking shit, I like the reviews a lot.

It would be a cool project for anyone to do. Rework an adventure from Dungeon. Could probably get easy access to osrblogosphere via 10ftpole.

>what does it matter if people are giving money and attention to a degenerate SJW hack?

Nice rebuttal, cuck.

You didn't answer the question.

>Dungeon Magazine has conditioned me to throw up in my mouth a little every time I read "the party must race to ..."

One of my favourite quotes from him in recent memory, and it sums up the whole problem perfectly.

I could be wrong but the Dungeon Magazine adventures weren't RPGA/Living Wherever/Adventurer's League adventures, so if you remove all the time limits and allow the characters to do whatever, then nothing breaks. Let them use Knock to open the door instead of deciding it has an Anti-Magic Field and requires A Very Specific Key, for heaven's sake.

Also from his Dungeon Magazine #123 article:

>Still, it has empty skill checks (“If the party doesn’t make the check a random sailor points the fact out.”)

It's so sad that I grew up thinking adventures written like this were fine.

>old school games have thief skills and dice rolls for traps, for fuck's sake
Maybe take another look at your rules there, pal?
Thieves roll to detect or disarm SMALL traps (poison-needle launchers, explosive runes, etc.)
The vast majority of traps are beyond the purview if thief skills.

I feel like I really need to ask this:

What does /osr/ think about A Quick Primer for Old School Gaming?

I've never seen it criticized a few posts ago.

I mean rules like this, from Moldvay:

>Any character has a 1 in 6 chance of finding a trap when searching for one in the correct area. Any dwarf has a 2 in 6 chance. (This does not apply to magical traps, such as a sleep trap.) Checking a specific area for a trap will take one full turn.

According to Finch, it goes like this:

>John the Roguish: "I search for traps!"
>GM: "How are you searching for traps?"
>John the Roguish: "Well, I'm poking and prodding the walls."
>GM: "You discover no traps."
>John the Roguish: "What about the statue? I'll poke and prod that, probing to see if--"
>GM: "You discover no traps."
>John the Roguish: "Look, is there a general rule that assumes I'm searching for traps where I can take one turn and someone rolls a die and--"
>GM: "OF COURSE NOT! PLAYER SKILL! REEEE--!"

Meanwhile, in Modern Style games:

>John the Roguish: "I search for traps!"
>GM: "Okay, make a Search check!"
>John the Roguish: "18!"
>GM: "All right, you prod the ground and discover a pit trap in the north corridor."

I hate skill checks as much as the next grog, but come on. Stuff like this has always been a part of the game.

It's a little bit pamhpleteerish, but I think it gets the gist across okay.

>DUDE THERE WERE NEVER ROLLPLAYERS IN THE GOOD OLD DAYS AND PLAYING OLD DEEANDEE MAKES YOU SMARTER US 80S KIDS AMIRITE LMAO

It got me into the idea of OSR games but it's very biased. I'd like a more objective guide, myself.

This is why I am a simple skill set proponent.

IMO I feel like it's simply trying too hard to catch 4e burnouts. See Biased towards...?

Basically what says. It presents both playstyles as generally mutually exclusive.

This the perfect wandering monster table for any generic 1st level adventure, Floor 1:

1. Goblins x5
2. Giant rats x4
3. Skeletons x3
4. Zombie x1
5. Giant centipede x2
6. Stirge x2

Prove me wrong

Add in a weird one or at least a

7. GM's choice

(and then roll a d7 instead)

>I mean rules like this, from Moldvay
Simplification for Basic.

Thieves a la. Greyhawk, AD&D, and even 2e can only Find/Remove Traps on small traps or alarms.
In 2e (and AD&D?) they also use Find/Remove Traps to avoid gaze attacks. For whatever reason.

DM's choice it's the last thing I want to read on a random table.
I'm rolling so I don't have to decide, ffs.

What would make a weird but also generic monster?

>What would make a weird but also generic monster?
Owlbear. Mimic. Doppelganger. Nilbog.

Roll again, but with X? e.g. the monsters have +1 HD die. Mutant goblins. Winged giant rats. Obsidian skeletons.

Just add a random generic weird table to roll on that adds to the wandering monster.

1.Glows evil green
2.Covered in fungus
3.Too many eyes
4.Sings lullabies
5.Fish mutant version
6.Dressed like townspeople

>What's your favorite old school renaissance blog?
I like Goblin Punch and False Machine, of course. Dungeon of Signs has been growing a lot in my esteem since user posted a link to some adventures from there, though. I really like a number of his maps and ideas.

I like a mix of those, but you'd need another list for a tactic/gimmick - otherwise players would get used to the 'goblin+fungus? it must be the same but with more hp!'

1. Steals
2. Explodes (at death / failed morale / at contact)
3. Parasite/Symbiotic (treat as 2 critters)
4. Enhanced (morale / surprise / AC / Strength / ... )
5. Formation breaker (sniper / aerial / swarm)
6. Smartass (ambushes / parleys / bribes / ... )

>What's your favorite old school renaissance blog?
Elfmaids & Octopi. Retarded amounts of random tables ranging from a kind of generic d100 Forbidden Castles to utterly hilarious d100 Tragic Murder Hobos.

>What's your favorite old school renaissance blog?
it hasn't updated in forever, but gameswithothers.blogspot.co.nz/ is still one of my favorites, really want to run something in his Troll World idea someday

Parasite/Symbiotic could mean rolling another wandering monster and combining them.

Can always add in preferred targets at random too.
1. Elves, they hate elves
2. Shorter than 5', thinks they're children thus tasty
3. Magic Users, drawn to drink magical blood
4. Highest Str, got the most meat on 'em
5. Highest Int, to eat their juicy brains
6. Brightest coloured clothing, armour, etc.

>Goblins with Stirges on strings dressed like human children who target enemies with the brightest clothing to salvage into outfits for their pets.

>MIRRORS
>It is important for DMs to remember that in order to be reflective, a mirror must have a light source.

???

"You can't turn out the light so you can't see the basilisk, but then still use a mirror against it to petrify it."

...

From last thread

>Why the -2 to +2 modifiers
The reason why I settled on +2 to -2 is because I liked the really oldschool reasoning behind even a small modifier of +1 from a very high stat being a good thing, but I felt that was a little weak on its own. I am also autistic and like round numbers, so for me to say that your maximum bonus/negative to something from your character's stats alone can be up to + or -10% just feels right.

>the rest
Hey thanks, really appreciate it. I'm trying to make it as good as possible, so every rule has to encourage a behavior or make the game more fun.

Anyone like the idea of running an OSR zombie apocalypse campaign?

> highly lethal
> focused on player decisions
> not a lot of rules
> hexcrawl would be cool for exploring
> scavenging rules would be fun

I feel like building this RPG. I just like rolling 3d6 for stats so much, its incredibly enjoyable to me. Is there a way I could balance it so that every character is "fair"? Maybe a seventh stat that is 80 - your other six scores, that is like your Luck or something?

I also feel like making a generic / multi-genre OSR-style game. Something with the 3-18 stats range but the GURPS skill system (where your stats are in the 10 to 15 range, mostly, and are relevant to your stats).

I've seen Necropalyx but I am wondering what else is out there.

By-the-book, 50% of town/city encounters in LBB are undead.

AMAZING

Pick one mechanic you hate and try to find some good in it.

I don't like the traditional saves much. The Ref/For/Wis from 3.0 and DCC make more sense to me, but I see the way the traditional 5 serve their purpose well.

Bonuses for Strength and Intelligence, besides xp, make them relevant (beyond being a "role guide") when you aren't playing the associated class. There's no defending the Wisdom stat though.

>There's no defending the Wisdom stat though.
It gives bonus to saving throws

So do levels.

It was added at the last minute as the "aptitude stat" for Clerics, a class which was added at the last minute.
I'm not saying Clerics are bad, but I am saying the stats had blurbs on how they should influence character actions and referee arbitration.
To this end, Wisdom got pic related. What part of it seems necessary?

OSR STATS.

Str: Fightin' shit
Con: Healthy shit
Dex: Agile shit
Int: Magic shit
Wis: God Shit
Cha: Useless shit

There are 3 aptitude stats and 3 stats for bonuses.
3 is the magic number.

>Cha: Useless shit

>Charisma
>useless
>OSR

[Five 3s and 18 Charisma] is SIGNIFICANTLY better than [Five 18s and 17 Charisma]

We found the imposter.

Please stay and learn about OSR!

hey /osr/ what happens on your table when someone rolls a '1' on an attack roll.

nothing because a 5% chance for an experienced warrior to do something stupid every attack is silly

>henchmen
>useless
>in some interpretations in some editions you can up and make monsters, especially charmed ones, into henchmen/retainers

I like to narrate how the PC humiliates himself, cuts off his own hand, or whatever else because he was stupid enough to do something in combat other than cast a spell or engage in improv. D&D is supposed to be a game of the imagination, not "hur I attack"

Honestly, the Reaction Role adjustment is more valuable.

I spend way too much time making them roll another die and looking at a fumble table. It's getting pretty old so I think I'll change it to having something in the combat environment changing or getting triggered or something.

>In 2e (and AD&D?) they also use Find/Remove Traps to avoid gaze attacks.
I don't believe you.

I want to get a campaign started soon. I want to prep a hex map. Maybe not the entire thing. Just broad strokes and a fleshed out starting hex.

...how do you stay motivated long enough to get that much ready?

>...how do you stay motivated long enough to get that much ready?

You either do it or you don't.

My players and getting sleep deprived helps.

>using henchmen

Just break it down into small goals. Do X* hexes every day. Once you've got like 30 done you can start and flesh more out in your spare time.
*X varies based on how detail packed and big your hexes are.

>how do you stay motivated long enough to get that much ready?

Try the Pomodoro method?

I break out my fuckin Fumble table (I prefer DCCs). Likewise for Nat 20s.

wizardawn.and-mag.com/tool_world.php

Generate a random map. Have at least 3 ideas for what they'll run into first. Literally make everything up as you go along.

Print a 50x30 (or whatever) map, sit down, and fill in hexes. You can fill them all in with ~6 minutes.
Make write-ups for individual hexes or random tables for areas whenever you find yourself spacing out over the next few days.
"When you space out" is an AWFUL time to do serious thinking, but it's a FANTASTIC time to jot down one or two gems.

How else are you going to haul that treasure out? And who's going to hold the torches when you're fighting? Who's going to help you form the shield wall across the passage to keep your party from being surrounded as you slowly retreat?

The rest of your party, you pussy. Or play 2 actual characters. Henchmen should be done away with.

I'm stuck.

I've been asked by a group of total noobs to run a "classic" dungeon crawl. "Like Dark Souls", they said. "Really old school, with traps and maps and oozes and wizards."

So I've got a system and a bestiary and a magic system all sorted out. The usual worries of /osr/ aren't mine.

But for the life of me, I can't figure out what else to add to the First Dungeon.

Pic related. It's the side view.

Top bit is a false tomb of the "Snake Men", who were really just people who worshipped the remains of the dead empire of the /real/ snake men.

False tomb has a few traps, some gold, and some skeletons. Nothing crazy.

But there's easy access to the True Tomb (of the not-actually-Snake-Men) underneath. There are mummy fragments (bits of semi-dissolved mummy), and some more traps, and a bit of treasure.

To get deeper, you have to get past the Temple Guard, a giant knight golem who lives in a room made of shields. He throws shields at you while hitting you with his sword. You might be able to trick him.

And then.... what else.

What's below all that? What's bolted on to the burial chambers of a semi-barbarian shamman snake-man-worshipping king?

"Henchman" is a pretty bad choice of word since it sounds like "trivially exploited goon" rather than "demi-PC"

I'm willing to grant that yes, that's an opinion you can have.

Are you willing to grant that it's not the /only/ opinion people have?

It's not like you're tapping into some deep objective truth or "doing it objectively right."

The party is carrying useful gear, and even with 6 guys we couldn't carry all that treasure out, there's thousands of coins needed before we can level up, and leaving mos of a massive score because we can't carry it all sucks! Have you even played OSR before?

Sorry, what? There's a tomb of the fake snake guys and a tomb of the slightly less fake snake guys?

So the dungeon is snek and mummy themed but only has a few skellingtons and a giant fuckin golem?

It may be good, but that sounds like a truly bizarre power escalation.

No, because every opinion I have is the right one.

I've ran OSR games for years and not once, ever, had any henchmen in any game.

Ok, but you being bad at the game isn't anyone's problem but your own.

>players have a blast
>still consistently challenged
>I have fun as well

Bad at the game?

Why not a collapsed tunnel segment that leads to an underground den of real snakemen? So you have the false tomb, the true tomb of the false snakemen, and then the home of the true snakemen, possibly with a true tomb of true snake men beneath that.

Yup.

>don't like other people's fun, want people to stop having it the wrong way

+

>don't like options that are boosts to the action economy in units of 100

Covers both senses one can say someone's "bad" at the game in.

There was an ancient empire of actual snake people. Head like a snake, arms like a human, body like a snake, mind like a steel trap filled with hateful drugged ferrets.

They had a nice empire. It fell apart.

Then some barbarians stumbled across the ruins and, ancient aliens style, went "wow, these guys were neat. Let's start using magic and surgery to make ourselves snake-like, because /clearly/ these guys were awesome." They repurposed some of the snake-men temples and artifacts.

They had a nice empire. It fell apart.

Now the PCs have stumbled into the picture.

Heirarchy goes

[Fake Tomb of the Fake Snake Guys]
[Tomb of the Fake Snake Guys]
???
[Real Snake Guy Stuff Not Necessarily Tombs]

Fake Snake guy aesthetics are a mix of the barbarian tribes they once were, combined with the much more sophisticated Real Snake Men architecture and art. Their "giant golem" is only about 8' tall and is mostly stone, copper, and wood. Stats as an Ogre.

Nah.

>What's below all that? What's bolted on to the burial chambers of a semi-barbarian shamman snake-man-worshipping king?
A really, really, really, really big snake.

So, I'm not gonna say you are having badwrongfun like the other guy but, if you are having people play multiple characters, isn't that about the same as using henchmen just without having to rely on morale or charisma? You can't really shame us for following rules you choose to ignore that come out to the same thing. So I mean, you do you man, its cool.

What you should do is, somewhere down the line, throw in Tainted Ones (fake Yuan Ti Purebloods), Purebloods, Abominations, and some sort of mummy escalation as well, with Pseudo-Mummies (MM2; pseudo undead are a favorite concept of mine), Adherers, and then real Mummies.

The final boss should be a Mummy Serpent Lord, who is just a normal (dead) mummy in a sarcophagus filled with really pissed off snakes. A snake cultist casts Speak with Animals on them periodically to get missions, but they're just snakes.

>that come out to the same thing

Except that with multiple PCs you eliminate the morale rules and other concerns, making the game easier. Which is fine if you want to do that, but it's not the same thing as using the henchmen rules.

Well, yeah.

But what did the Real Snake Guys build /above/ their god but below the surface?

>What's below all that?
Portal to Hell.
Portal to the Plane of Earth.
A modern day Grocery Store full of Owlbears.
Svirfneblin who tunneled into the tomb.
The TRUE True Tomb, the "True King" was just a puppet ruler.
Or kick it up a notch: The TRUE False Tomb, then the TRUE True Tomb.
Portal to Double Hell.
The Bottomless Pit bisects a Mindflayer city.
Mirror to an alternate universe where up and down are inverted.
As with all mineshafts, the Bottomless Pit is flooded with water.
A tunnel runs through the tomb, 14 miles in either direction.