Nobledark 40k XIX: Whose Grimdark Is It Anyway edition

(samefag)

Would Dorn's "mud marble" speech go good for the quotes? Encapsulates his "old soldier always feeling under siege" personality perfectly.

Mud marble? No idea what that is - and, come to think of it, there's probably been a lot of writefaggotry for each primarch that I haven't seen. All I've based the table off so far is just the original fluff pieces that I ended up giving up on polishing - there's probably a lot more to go fill in.

Repostan from the archives

>"Of course we are at war. Why on Old Earth's green soil would you believe we are not at war. We in what is essentially a siege position, with an unfortifiable border stretching an entire 360 degrees for several light years in every conceivable direction. Our enemy has no concept of "rest" or "armistice" and can pop up at any time, on any side, in any position within the massive amounts of space between the mud marbles that we call the worlds of the Imperium. The Imperium is always going to be at war. Why would you ever believe otherwise?"
>- Rogal Dorn, showing his usual level of tact

>several light years
Dorn also showing his knack for understatement apparently

“Heh. Ha. Haha.”

“What is so funny?”

“You know, back on Old Earth, we used to have this story. Way back before the Unification Wars, Age of Strife, all that nonsense. Back when mankind was just a bunch of monkeys realizing that it was better to bang bronze together than rocks.”

“You will remain silent, throne-worshipper, until I have need of your services. The Dark Gods will be pleased at whatever information I can wrest from you.”

“I’m giving you information, cultist. Anyway, so this story. Guy called Hercules. Went on some epic quest to slay some of the biggest monsters in the land. Don’t remember all of them, it’s an old story and the details have changed so much over the years. But the one part of the story I remember, the one part everyone in my legion knows about, is the one about the Lernean Hydra.”

“This information is unimportant.”

“Hold on, bird man, I’m getting to the important part. So the hydra’s supposed to be a serpent with a bunch of extra heads. Hercules goes into this swamp, and before you know it he find the heads of the hydra coming up from beneath his feet. He swings his sword around and the heads drop. They say he had a power sword that went snicker-snack, but I’m pretty sure that’s a later addition. But that didn’t stop the hydra. Right before Hercules’ eyes, the hydra grew back it’s heads with interest. Cut one off and two more shall take its place.”

“Just like Chaos. Which is why the Imperium will fall.”

“You don’t get it do you. You’re not the hydra in this scenario. You’re Hercules. Big, bad demigod so hopped up on god juice you think you can’t fall. That’s the funny thing, isn’t it? You chaos chumps are so used to being the serpents growing up from beneath people’s toes. You don’t deal so well when someone else does it to you. You’re so used to your brain-uranium doing your job for you that you got lazy. What are you going to do when your foes grow back every time you cut them down?”

“Impertinent fool. Blasphemer. Who do you think you are?”

“Who am I? I am Alpharius. My brothers are Alpharius. Every single man, woman, and child who stands in your way that you murder in the name of your perverse gods is Alpharius. The Imperium is not just an institution. It is an idea. A belief in and of itself. And you cannot kill an idea unless you stamp it from the head of every last person who holds it dear.”

“An acceptable proposition.”

“Well then you better get busy, bird-man. Galaxy’s a big place."

So Ganymede.

What weird stuff could be stored there?

I'm still fond of it being a plantoid that became Armageddon's moon that was mobilized. An entire planet getting that close to Earth would have fucked everything up due to gravity alone.

But that might be just me.

Bump.

In the Beast Arises series the gravity shockwaves are apparently supposed to be a feature, not a bug.

I would be inclined to agree, the only issue is that if Ullanor was small enough to be Armageddon's moon (say Luna sized) the Ullanor Crusade would consist of Orks and Space Marines bunny hopping across the planet.

Not him, but is there anything more succinct? I think editfag trimmed some of the original quotes for the table, but still

Only other thing that comes close is his dying words, bitching at the man who pulled his wounded, dying body off the battlements to go back and hold the line because Dorn certainly won't be able to.

Would it be too much to suggest that the pleasant backwater Oscar and Isha retired to was Tyran?

Probably, yeah. I'm sure the Imperium has worlds which are both much more pleasant and much more backwater.

There was a suggestion that the planet Oscar and Isha vacationed on was called "Littoropoli" (literally Beach Planet), but I'm not sure if that was a joke.

Tyran is an Ocean World, so it has beaches, but it was described as the beaches not being good enough for Tyran to be a good tourist location.

But as for location, yeah, Tyran is about as far away as you can get in the Imperium. Tyran is on the ass end of Ultramar, which in turn is on the ass end of the Imperium. Past Tyran is nothing but alien space, and not even much of that because then you hit the galactic rim.

There's also the fact to consider that Kryptman goes 2000% AHAB in this AU because Tyran was his homeworld and he was one of the few survivors from (which means, after all the rejuvenant, he has the rather ironic moniker of the Last Tyranid). If Oscar and Isha had any sort of link to the place at all, it'd colour their reactions to and treatment of Kryptman rather differently.

It was mentioned that even though the Inquisition excommunicated him over the Octarius thing, they still kept him around to act as an advisor. It sounds like he's not completely banished, but his authority severely curbed so he can slap the Exterminatus button anymore.

>Be me, Emperor of Mankind
>Doing a pretty swell job
>Still don't think I'm the right guy for this tho
>Gonna meet my foremost expert on Tyranids personally to see if he has any new advice or strategies since the last gambit, hopefully that aren't as fucking horrendous
>Step onto his ship, corners of my vision turn blurry and red tinted
>Can literally taste the hatred in air already
>Fuckmylife.pict
>As I get closer, it gets worse
>Am suddenly thankful that Isha decided to stay on the ship
>Legitimately think this dude's ambient hate could induce PMS
>Finally reach this dude's quarters, can faintly taste blood in the back of my throat
>Open the door and freeze
>Attempt to process what I'm seeing
>The wall is covered in the heads of every single type of tyranid that I have ever heard about, along with several that I haven't
>Kryptman is standing on a Swarmlord skin rug, wearing a Lictor skin jacket, in Gaunt skin boots
>Almost every piece of funiture is made of Tryanid
>Even the silverware
>What the fuck
>Notice the windows of his room look into an operating room
>Feel fear for the first time millennia
>Kryptman's face when

>Even the silverware

The food is also tyranid.

I imagine Boaz Kryptman would call himself the last Tyranite just to make the distinction. It's not like there's anyone left to dispute it.

It's also worth noting that aggravating as he is he will not be a problem for much longer. He is at the edge of the longevity treatments and his health is so poor that he wouldn't survive another trip through the freezer.

These are his dying days, his ambition, his goal and the thing that drags his weary bones out of bed every morning is the aching, gnawing need to make them pay for what they took from him.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=BXpCA_2TxKE

>not posting the best and most appropriate part of that speech
youtube.com/watch?v=Jln3mi0vfJU

That being said, I feel like the many lives and deaths of Boaz Kryptman would make for some excellent writefaggotry and is, overall, fantastically nobledark.

On it.

Speaking of which, Kryptman has been hopping through time for several millenia, only woken up when the Imperium needs him. So has Commander Shadowsun. I wonder Kryptman knows Shadowsun. Or, given Kryptman's monomaniacal obsession with the tyranids, if Shadowsun knows him.

Nemesor Zandrekh is possibly one of the best allies the Imperium has in the galactic south against the Tyranids. They tried to eat his estate (the not entirely shit planet with the Tau on it) and was pretty damned grateful Hunt Master Jubal Khan and his fighting men turned up when they did.

Since that day he has taken great delight in Big Game hunting. Zandrekh has quite a small army compared to other of his kind of his station but he just loves taking synapses creature heads. If it's a Hive Tyrant or bigger he will get a new trophy. He has the skulls of big-time adorning parts of the Palace Gardens.

He wears a Preatorian pith helmet on such excursions. Nobody is quite sure where he got that from.

Huh, this seems to be heading somewhere interesting. Why was Shadowsun getting frozen again? Does she have her own whale to chase, or is she just wheeled out of cold storage whenever there's something that needs fucking real hard?

Seconding the desire for Kryptman tales - and did we ever decide what happened to O'Kais?

Shadowsun is freezing herself Halo style ("wake me...when you need me") to stomp her ex-friend/former source of sexual tension Farsight's head in when he shows his face again, since she doesn't have access to the Dawn Blade. It's possible Aun'va may be helping her without her knowledge with whatever is prolonging his life while he pulls the identical grandson routine.

Given what happened to Farsight, in this timeline Shadowsun is the greatest hero the Tau ever had who isn't a traitor. She's the one who gets brought up as the closest thing the Tau have to a primarch or a Phoenix Lord.

Crap, forgot to add. I think she is getting woken up when shit gets real (i.e., tyranids), it's more she wanted to be frozen as soon as she was sure Tau society was stable because it was clear Farsight was holed up good and wasn't going to come out anytime soon.

No clue what happened to O'Kais. I remember there was some suggestion he was an Imperiaboo, if only for the hilarity and awkwardness of it and the way the Tau are in this timeline (the Tau kind of acting like Meiji "oh shit we gotta catch up" Japan, though the technology difference is much less vast).

Sounds good, the only thing is Gidrim is in the Ultima Segmentum. Surprisingly enough it's right next to the Sautekh dynasty, which is Imotekh's domain. In vanilla Gidrim swore fealty to Sautekh and got absorbed, whereas in this timeline it's decidedly not due to Imotekh being real close to the Silent King.

How is the protagonist of the game Fire Warrior viewed?

That's Shas'O Kais. See and . There was some mention of him in a really early thread as well.

Pretty sure O'Kais is the commander from Dawn of War.

Yeah, they're supposed to be the same person, according to developer commentary from Dawn of War.

Huh, had no idea since I never played the Fire Warrior game. I just looked it up, and no wonder it's considered non-canon, a Fire Warrior solos hordes of Chaos Space Marines and a fucking Lord of Change.

Doom'Saal'Kais and general Kais could be a different people. Kais is a common Tau name.

The people who made Dawn of War literally intended him to be the same person, having been promoted for the bullshit in Fire Warrior. If we want, we can just say the Fire Warrior stuff never happened in this timeline (even more than vanilla)

>Tau Empire

I think the real question we need to be asking about the Tau Empire is how much are the Tau willing or allowed to innovate since joining the Imperium. On the one hand, it’s clear that the Tau would stop messing around with advanced artificial intelligence after the A.I. rebellion (which, given what happened to the Iron Minds, I assume is Chaos sabotage related because Chaos knows the Imperium can’t know it can have nice things) On the other hand, it seems unlikely that the Tau would completely abandon one of the few areas in which they have an advantage over other races (i.e., drones). Maybe they just abandoned research into cognizant A.I. and just stick to simple task-oriented A.I.

Drones were mentioned in one piece of writing, but I don’t know if that was before anything was decided about the Tau’s technology. One of the previous threads suggested that, like during the rebellion of the Men of Iron, a few of the more archaic Tau A.I. with bullshit-absorbing crumplezones sided with the Tau during the rebellion, though unlike the Men of Iron there are still some around in M41 acting as advisors (and only advisors) to the Ethereals. The Mechanicus could insist that the Tau get rid of ALL A.I., but the Tau could just point to the Legio Cybernetica for AdMech hypocrisy.

Additionally, I don’t think the Tau would appreciate being completely dependent on an outside group like the AdMech for all their technology, especially since it would put half the Earth Caste out of a job. And if they absolutely had to they would just go talk to someone reasonable like the squats or the Demiurg rather than deal with the AdMech.

Or we can say it did more than Vanilla but that Doom'Saal'Kais was part of an Inquisition team.

(cont.)
On a related note, since we’re trying to tone down the grimderp while retaining the OHGODWHATness of the setting, how about the overall motif for Imperial void travel is less galley slaves and more “age of wooden ships and iron men” (not literally, mind you). Like on a ship in the Age of Sail, life on a void ship is arduous, and you have to be constantly alert (on a sailing ship to make sure the ropes are all taut and the sails in the right position, on a void ship to constantly make sure the engines are working right).

From what I can tell, Imperial Ships in realspace run on Plasma Drives, which wouldn’t even require constant labor to stoke the furnaces as some sources suggest. Not to mention that many of the functions on a voidship described in canon could be greatly simplified by something as simple as pulleys and inclined planes, assuming those aren’t tech heresy.

Not to mention that in this timeline the Imperium decides to talk to the other survivor civilizations rather than subjugate them. The minute they encounter the Interex, or Ultramar, or Inwit, or the squats, or any other interstellar power, they’re going to realize there’s a more efficient way to run their ships.

Mechanicus are less asinine and let a little more of the basic technology out (e.g., autoloaders), at least in part because they have competition with the other semi-autonomous member states and they have to make an effort to not look like complete assholes. However, autoloaders can break and the crew are all trained to readily load munitions in by hand or pulley if they have to.

Overall, it gives the impression of a lifestyle that’s hard but the people who live it take as a point of pride over those who don’t. Wooden ships and iron men is very nobledark because by definition it pits the wills and creations of men against the cold, uncaring forces of nature.

I believe the Tau got more-or-less the same deal as other interstellar civilizations incorporated into the Imperium: internal autonomy, within certain limits. So they probably still have drones, and certainly have an industrial base independent of the Mechanicus.

I think that sounds about right. Seems like the Imperium in this AU is very much focused on best practices, and essentially cherry picking what works best from all its member races. The characterization of starships sounds good too, since its a gritty job away from civilization much of the time and at the mercy of the "elements" so to speak, where a rogue storm could wreck your shit at any time if you're not careful.

That's the general idea. Considering how the Tau Empire was just on the arse end of an arse kicking the terms were quite generous.

This thread won't die on my watch.

Imperium doesn't cherry pick so much as it doesn't fix what isn't broken. General rule is that the Imperium doesn't care about anything very much.

When did the Tau have an AI rebellion? I thought the biggest shit they had to face was the civil war, and that after the progressive half joined the Imperium that they were still pouring research into drone AI, in spite of pic related. Draws out the "well-meaning, competent but naive" angle more, and shows that they still have at least a little internal independence from the Imperium/AdMech as a whole (which I think was how it was originally described - don't quote me on that). No idea where the DAoT shit and Men of Iron come into it, though, given that the Tau are such a young race.

Yeah, it actually seems to be part of the reason this Imperium is doing so well compared to its canon counterpart. Vanilla Imperium tries to get involved in so many planets' business and picks so many fights it causes problems. But because the Inperium is much less draconian and works on the general Klaus Wulfenbach principle of "don't make me come over there" it has more military force to throw around and planets aren't trying to secede left and right.

Same with the xenos. In canon, half the reason the Tau are are strong as they are (for what little strength they have) is the Imperium's draconian policy has driven so many minor xenos races (Tarrellans, for one) into the Tau's arms. But since here the Imperium's default policy is "we don't care unless you start shooting", they have far fewer enemies to fight. There's still a lot of xenocide due to predatory races that just can't be negotiated with like the psybrids, Laer, Nephilim, etc., and neutral does not mean friends, but it means a lot fewer enemies.

Ironically this is probably one of the more effective kinds of government for this type of galactic scale. The galaxy is so big it's hard to run an empire united by more than a few basic tenants. The more you try to enforce uniformity over such large scales, the more systems slip through your grasp.

Men of Iron had nothing to do with the Tau A.I. rebellion. They, bar one example, were long extinct.

The Tau Skynet happened a few months before they started officially going through the motions of joining the Imperium.

It was sudden and horrible and it gutted them. And given how many vultures and sharks were circling them at time it was either join or die time.

Saw this in the filename thread, thought it was a perfect example of I imagine the better moments of the mechanicus in this AU. For some reason I also keep imagining them as the clergy characters in Canterbury Tales, and if I somehow had all the time in the world I think Imperial Chaucerian fables would be really great for this setting.

The A.I. rebellion as one of the first thing that was thought of for the Tau, way back in one of the first threads of the project. It's on the timeline. Tau galactic history kind of went like this...

Mid M38 - Imperium encounters Tau for the first time. Tau have already absorbed a few minor races like the Kroot, Poctroon, and Vespid. Imperium asks if they want to join, Tau say no, thinks Imperium is full of shit about its scale. Imperium shrugs and says okay. Imperium still tries to keep close contact with the Tau and give the new guys pointers (for a variety of reasons)
Late M38 - Tau have a serious A.I. rebellion despite repeated warnings from the Imperium. Beat back at great cost only to get the shit raided out of them by the Dark Eldar.
M38-M39 Tau recover and expand their empire even further than canon
M39 - The timeline says a little different, but I think we changed a bit of this based on discussion. Regardleess, these two events happen.

(1) Big tyranid splinter fleet hits Tau space. Imperium has to bail the Tau's ass out of the alligator pit. Pyrrhic victories prior to that on Tau's part.

(2) Ethereals start to warm up to idea of joining Imperium, seeing similarities between Greater Good and Imperial philosophy (though they still consider themselves more enlightened). Farsight thinks the Greater Good has been compromised too much by outside influences and demands a return to the old ways. Tau civil war erupts, Farsight and friends carve out their own Enclave, progressive Tau (the majority) join the Imperium.

We had (2) going before (1), but it makes more sense for (1) to go before (2), at least in part. If Tau Civil War happened at same time or before tyranids they would be bug food.

Dark Eldar raid the shit out of them both times. Leaves Tau with a ridiculous amount of hate for Dark Eldar (though this only extends to Dark Eldar, they can tell the difference and almost everyone hates DEldar by this point).

The Men of Iron were suggested to have a few archaic members who didn't go crazy from all the Chaos and fought on behalf of humanity. Think a reverse from the geth in Mass Effect. Whereas in Mass Effect there were some quarians who fought to protect the geth, here there were some robots who fought to protect the humans. However, given that 10,000 years had passed between the Men of Iron and the end of the Age of Strife, any friendly Man of Iron beyond the Data Ghost is long dead and they're at best reduced to a footnote in history.

The suggestion a few threads ago was the Tau had the same thing. A handful of self-aware but archaic (maybe

>“age of wooden ships and iron men” (not literally, mind you)
This reminds me of something I saw mentioned as a more general bit of fan theory, that post DAoT Humanity is actually genetically rebuilt and greatly improved on as a product of their golden age. This would be why Cadians are able to live in the glow of a portal to hell, Catachans can eat things that grow on their deathworld, and why Voidborn are so much better at three dimensional spatial awareness. This was introduced to me along side calling the whole of 'normal' humanity Men of Stone. It seems pretty natural to assume that generations of space colonization with the technology level we're setting up for our less obscure DAoT would leave behind some heritable improvements, and the general acceleration of adaptation is a good explanation for beastmen and abhumans as well. We include Squats in the DAoT human-derived survivor civilizations umbrella, and its fun to think of the incredible variation of humanity across the galaxy, which is probably to the point that really any mix of features within roughly mammalian bounds and roughly human body plan.

forgot the image

I like the idea of the pro-Tau robots being the old ones that weren't connected a network. They, for whatever reason, went without upgrades and so remained themselves.

They weren't as smart or as strong as their rebellious kin, in terms of brain power they were more like smart humans with very broad knowledge.

The Admech know about them. They aren't happy about it.

With the Tau A.I. there was a suggestion that the AdMech branded them machine spirits because they fought to protect the Tau so they were /obviously/ emissaries sent from the Omnissiah to set the Tau on the proper path. It's just the Tau's fault that they won't accept the Omnissiah's wisdom.

But its just as likely that's just what the higher up AdMech said to keep the rank and file in line. The Tau have a few A.I., but at least now they know not to trust them with anything, so things are less bad.

The AdMech aren't happy. But then they're never happy.

Thumbsupfromthevoiddragon.holovid

So guys, I don't know exactly how to say this but...I found the first threads. Threads. As in plural. There were two of them. I can trace them all the way back to the "Big E and Isha have kids, wot do?" of the first one.

I...I'm not sure if I should post the links here. They're amazing to see the genesis of so many of the ideas that would grow to be central ideas of the project, there's even some long lost writing from Assassinbro and a mostly compatible codex entry on Taldeer, but they're from a time when so little was set in stone. There's references to old school demigod primarchs, multiple Emperors(!), pre-Starchild children of Emps and Isha, and more. My fear is if I post them we will start ripping out chunks of the current project to try to accomodate them and tear ourselves apart, when the truth is many of them are ideas that no longer fit in the AU.

Tl;dr: lost threads, wot do?

Throw the links on the wiki somewhere. Really, we should have links to all the previous threads somewhere. Probably the bottom of the notes section.

So as with everything else, the Tau get a smaller, more benign version of the robot uprising that teaches them a gentle lesson instead of destroying their civilization? Seems about on par with Taufag writing.

Why does this thread just assume the Imperium is right when in the universe its based off there's been little to no indication the Tau face a threat of an AI uprising?

This just smells like, as par for the course here, an attempt to again make humans dominant and right.

You've already got stories of Primarchs drinking Seer Councils under the table and Biel-Tan being forced to accept humans on worlds they want pristine, where are the examples where Primarchs and humans are forced and bested by other member species? This whole thing just seems like wanking humanity as some 'enlightned' bunch of purity sues and then Eldrad's thrown in as some token 'but nah Eldar' to deflect criticism.

Let's not post them here. We've come a long way since then and they would not be compatible with what we have here.

Also we've had all bar the 1st thread archived and linked in th wiki drafts page.

I think what you're saying has a lot of merit, and I at least like to think that this AU has left the more puerile, waifufagging elements behind.

In my interpretation, humanity is definitely NOT always right, but as the dominant power in the Imperium they use their authority to get what they want, simply because of the realpolitik fact that they have the biggest metaphorical dick. Think of it as a situation like when you were a kid and your parent told you to do something that you knew would turn out shitty, but you had to do it anyway because they forced you. At the end when everything does end up shitty all you can say is "I told you so" and hope they take your opinion the next time.

It does seem like you've missed some of the development given to the the Eldar though, if anything they have outsize influence within the Imperium given their much smaller numbers.

Give an example then of the Eldar getting the better of a Primarch or a situation in favour of the Eldar similar to what happened with Biel-Tan Tanith which DOESN'T include Eldrad.

They pretty much seem to always be right, unless its Eldrad. And Tau are pretty much only being used to sooth people's burns from the actual canon where here they're being played just so humans can be all 'we'll save you from yourselves inferior Tau'

>Why does this thread just assume the Imperium is right when in the universe its based off there's been little to no indication the Tau face a threat of an AI uprising?

They're not right. Indeed, they're dead wrong. The machine spirit thing is just the B.S. official line the AdMech put out to make themselves feel better. As in canon, the Imperium are the masters of cognitive dissonance.

Indeed, that's why I made the suggestion that Chaos was behind the Tau A.I. rebellion. If the Imperium figures out A.I. aren't bad until proven otherwise based on the Tau's handling of A.I., it means they get a huge leg up with robots supplementing Imperial Forces. And the Ruinous Powers refuse to let the Imperium have nice things. It's another big victory for Chaos, one the Imperium never even figures out.

>Primarchs and humans are forced and bested by other member species?

Those would be nice additions, we could use some more of those. There was a mention of the first Black Crusade being much less of a shitshow due to Eldar. The War in the Webway had the Tau saving the day, we could use a comparable one for Tau and humans.

The reason there is so much for humans is because the Eldar are by nature aloof and think they're the best thing since sliced bread. Humans have to bend over backwards and go the extra mile before the Eldar are willing to even deem them as "yeah, they're okay sometimes".

>Biel-Tan being forced to accept humans on worlds they want pristine

Lol wut? In an earlier thread it was stated that Eldar virtually never allow other races access to Maiden Worlds. They specifically drew up a list of planets that they claimed were theirs that everyone else is expected to stay off of and the humans agreed.

If you're talking about New Tanith, that was all Prince Yriel. Dude was so crazy Biel-Tan didn't want to press the issue. If a human, any human, had tried to do the same they would have been told to go fuck themselves.

Ulthwe is pretty much Venice+Genoa+Hanseatic League combined and has Imperial trading by the balls.

But you seem weirdly fixated on the Primarchs. Most of the bios don't even mention them interacting with the Eldar at all since the write ups focus on the WotB and other such violence. It's really only the one Russ-Saim Henn stuff that you brought up, and that's already a divisive bit of fluff.

So where's the counter example?

Where's the counter examples to Leman drinking Saim-Hann under the table, to Yriel compelling New Tanith, to Tau being turned into a race of retards?

Isn't the Ulthwe the highly human one? Gee, cause that ain't still sending the message 'be human is better' in this setting.

Huh, colour me confused. I genuinely thought Tau AI was only in its infancy and reaching the phase where the AdMech aggressively Costanza them. Guess it'd work either way, although is pretty right too in that we sure as hell need more fallible humans.

For the record - not attempting to railroad anyone here or anything - but I originally envisioned the Tau still having at least partial independence from the IoM, particularly on military matters such as well-oiled combined arms that put the Imperial Army to shame. And far, far more Farsight Adventures (TM), too

You seem pretty butthurt about the thing with Saim-Hann and Russ. The thing was used as the reason that Saim-Hann starting giving the Space Wolves any respect. Indeed, I don't think there's any recorded action between the primarchs and the non-Dark Eldar beyond that, unless you count the Dark Angels tearing themselves in half over Luther's irrational Eldar fears during the War of the Beast.

The two issues are its hard to write an Eldar sticking their neck out for a human without them being considered odd by Eldar standards, and to the Eldar having a bunch of aspect warriors swoop in and save the poor unenlightened humans isn't a notable event. It's just the way of the universe.

The Eldar are also massively influencing the Imperium on a cultural level. Case in point Slaanesh. The Imperium in this timeline has adopted Eldar connotations of Slaanesh (i.e., calling it She Who Thirsts) rather than being treated as a masculine entity as in canon.

How come no Primarchs or humans ever get shown up then? Why only Eldar?

Furthermore why go out of the way to humiliate one Eldar Craftworld by a Primarch and not do the reverse as well?

How is it odd for an Eldar to stick its neck out for a human but not for a human to do it for an Eldar?

All this just seems like obfuscating the clear problem; the human characters continuously do get the better of the Eldar (and everyone) in concrete specific circumstances and then you use vague generalization to try to draw an equivalence and dodge the clear criticism.

>How come no Primarchs or humans ever get shown up then?
For the simple reason that no one has written it.

>How is it odd for an Eldar to stick its neck out for a human but not for a human to do it for an Eldar?
In the combined arms tactics by militaryfag, human soldiers are the disposable anvil to the more valuable Eldar hammer.

This isn't some closed club, we welcome contributions from newcomers. Write up some fluff about humans getting shown up and we'd probably appreciate it. I don't see why you're going out of your way to rile people up.

>Tau being turned into a race of retards
Which Tau are those? Because the 3 Tau factions mentioned so far are the Empire of Philosophers and Technicians who invented/refined/perfected a reliable slow warp drive that revolutionized the ferry system for the Imperium, the Noble Warrior Enclave that can punch way above it's meager weight category and the hardy frontiersmen in the realm of Nemesor Zandrekh.

>counter examples to Leman drinking Saim-Hann under the table
Sreta beating entire sectors of traders under the table. Also Lady High Admiral Iyanna Arienal of Iyanden being the nominal head of her craftworld and commanding a fleet of predominantly human ships whose numbers probably rival the Legions of old.

>Yriel compelling New Tanith
That was a perfectly valid example of an in/famous eldar dragging human ass out of the fire when they got into shit they couldn't deal with and being all Big Damn Hero.

Ulthwe is the other gate post of the Gate Worlds. Cadia is the highly eldar influenced human world at least if not more than Ulthwe is human influence. Which is not surprising as population wise Ulthwe is bigger than Cadia. The Gate Worlds hold considerable importance to the whole Imperium so Ulthwe will always be highly important to the Imperium beyond it's numbers.

>Tau
Always working for the Imperium, always subordinate

>Counter examples to Saim-Hann
Not one involves Eldar showing up a Primarch or major named Human faction, involves bunches of random whos

>Yriel
Still nothing where humans are forced to go through something like Biel-tan is

So your point is?

Wait Cadia is highly Eldar influenced? I don't remember reading much about that. I remember we said Ulthwe is so Human in its power system other Eldar find it creepy, but I forgot what Cadia had other than Eldar living on it the way humans live on Ulthwe

Tau are pretty pathetic compared to their canon, here their pretty much depicted as having to need the Imperium otherwise they'd have just killed themselves.

Also 80% of plots here is "Humans save X or Y"

I don't want to rile anyone like the other user but just think its fair to keep that in mind.

>the Tau still having at least partial independence from the IoM, particularly on military matters such as well-oiled combined arms that put the Imperial Army to shame

As it should be. Tau are a semi-autonomous race, as long as they don't worship Chaos or the Emperor they're free to do what they like. Imperium has combined arms, but they're not well integrated (plus the whole "no combined arms" is a post-heresy thing in canon). Tau, despite their infancy, are much more efficient despite their smaller size and have much better combined arms strategies and plasma weapons.

Anti-human Craftworlds like Alaitoc and Il-Kaithe don't even want to associate with the humans. Only the pro-human Craftworlds are wiling to even be around humans. How are they supposed to show the humans up when they don't even want to be in the same solar system as them, and likely wouldn't come to the Imperium's aid if you paid them.

Biel-Tan saving the Tallarn when the Imperium's colossal bureaucracy failed to come to their aid. Kinebrach saving Interex during WotB.

Also, the Tau aren't retarded. Think of them like this. They've been kicked in the balls a few times. But they refuse to give up. They've seen the scale of what the universe can offer them, and they want it. So what if A.I. didn't work out. They'll figure something else out. The Tau are driven to succeed, and they're advancing faster than any other race. The question is can they catch up before the End Times.

I do agree that there is a bit too much Tau ball-kicking, but that was put in way before I ever started posting on these threads. The Tau do need to fall on their face at least once, or they would never ally with the Imperium. They're too proud to do otherwise. Also haven't the Tau been on the galactic stage for far longer in this timeline?

I'm not seeing this much vaunted Tau competence you're mentioning.

Also it doesn't need to be Anti-human Craftworlds, Tanith and Leman weren't anti-Eldar, so why do they need to be anti-human Craftworlds?

The Tallarn thing is a good point, actually, though I'll note that then it just seems Marines get special treatment, since Tallarn is a case of the Guard. But that at least is true to all 40k verses so what can I expect.

F A R S I G H T

>Always working for the Imperium, always subordinate
You are aware of how much smaller the Tau Empire is than the Imperium in Vanilla?

>Not one involves Eldar showing up a Primarch or major named Human faction, involves bunches of random whos
Primarchs are all dead or missing at this point. Also there has been no story of a Primarch or major human faction showing up the eldar unless you count joint missions of two equals with joint success and benefit to be "showing up". Also the eldar managed to maneuver their All-Mother into high office after the end of the Civil War. Don't know if that counts as humans being shown up or not.

Also Harlequins manage to capture a live Swarm Lord where Kryptman has been failing for centuries.
>Kryptman a random who
>Implying

>Still nothing where humans are forced to go through something like Biel-tan is
And what have Biel-tan been forced to go through? They had to surrender settlement rights to ~15,000 humans for a whole planet that was uninhabited since The Fall. And this was forced on them by Prince Yriel.

They have Seers and Farseers in positions of authority or whispering in the ears of people in authority.

Because it's not like Eldrad save Oscar at any point, or Prince Yriel saved a bunch of humans or any thing, or Demiurg rode in like Rohan during an Armageddon war, or the Kinebrach ever helped anyone with a deamon, or Valhalla being saved from a comet impact, or Valhalla being saved from orks, or the debt Tallarn owe the eldar.

Aren't the only things he's ever beaten other Tau? How is that badass?

>How is beating a technologically sophisticated, intelligent and more powerful opponent badass?

>This isn't some closed club, we welcome contributions from newcomers. Write up some fluff about humans getting shown up and we'd probably appreciate it.

This. We would appreciate it. You know, Vulkan lived seven millenia and was mentioned to have gradually become less racist to Eldar. He probably got saved at least once by an Eldar.

The greatest Rogue Trader in the galaxy is an Eldar. One of the greatest High Admirals in the Imperial Navy is an Eldar. There would likely be even more, if not for the fact that humans outnumber Eldar about ten to one at least (canon non-Dark Eldar population being in the single digit trillions).

Also, the Imperium in this timeline is not the Imperium of Man. It is the Imperium of the Golden Throne, or some other title that we never figured out. It is not just the Imperium of Man, but the Imperium of men, Eldar, Tau, space gorillas, tarellians, and everyone else. That's why when the Imperium is mentioned, the Imperium does not just mean humanity like in vanilla. Humans and Eldar tend to wield disproportionate power becausr 95% of the population is human, abhuman, or Eldar, and a human and an Eldar are on the throne. Is it fair? No. But that adds a spot of darkness to the Imperium's government, the idea that despite all its claims it still has skeletons in the closet.

>Tau
Your point?

>Eldar
We've literally been talking about Saim-Hann being shown up by Leman. The only thing you brought up here of any worth was Harlies catching the Swarmlord.

>Biel-tan
So when does a major human force, or Marine force, get forced to do something like that?

>Seers
Like? Other than Eldrad, have any of them done stuff like your Primarchs/Marines?

Anyway it doesn't matter. Some people can see and say that some fallibility from the human side is needed, others just want everything to keep going, doesn't matter.

He is a tau

>Tau
>Your point?
I'm still trying to figure out what yours is on this subject. The Tau would not be the dominant partner because they are smaller, weaker and less technologically advanced even if they are quickly closing the distance.

>We've literally been talking about Saim-Hann being shown up by Leman
When did that even happen? Saim-Hann bigwig challenged Russ to drinking contest. Russ won. Then they both got along like a house on fire and to this day the Space Viking Pope gets annoyed at Russ' old drinking buddies crashing in The Fang.

>So when does a major human force, or Marine force, get forced to do something like that?
Oh look at all these uninhabited worlds left behind by a dead Empire. Wouldn't it be nice to live on them. Oh wait, Beil-tan called dibs. Well they are our friends and allies it would be rude to refuse them.

>Like? Other than Eldrad, have any of them done stuff like your Primarchs/Marines?
Taldeer. Presumably others. Would you care to write about one of them?

With considerably less resources, man power, industrial base and friends.

It's like comparing Taiwan to China.

The Demiurg also saved the Imperium's bacon during the Age of Apostasy. They impressed the galaxy spanning empire enough that the empire decided to amend its rules to let them in they were so awesome.

Also the Watchers saved the loyalist Dark Angels during the War of the Beast. Their information network and traitor-detecting abilities were crucial. No Watchers and the first legion would have had no survivors.

Zahndrek has also been mentioned to send ships to aid the Imperium. He was mentioned to have to be saved from tyranids once, and that was noted as odd because normally he does just fine on his own and it was less "save me" and more "help me keep the space silverfish from eating my vassals before I can kill them".

He was already a famous Shas'O and hero before the Civil War. He probably fought loads of enemies. He commissioned the Mont'kau battlesuits so he could RIP AND TEAR orks and tyranids with his bare hands. He was involved in the fight against the tyranids. The Tau technically won, and the only reason they took such losses is they were a little tiny empire against the Great Devourer, an outright Galactic Power.

This deserves mentioning. Saim-Hann does not come invited to Fenris. They just show up. They slip past one of the most sophisticated defense systems in the galaxy, and they just show up to wake up Bjorn. The wraithguard who was formerly the head of Saim-Hann is the one who picks out the best spots for fun in the galaxy, and the Vlka Fenryka (and possibly some of the White Scars, seeing as they too would get along with Saim-Hann like a house of fire, though they’re not as close as the head of Saim-Hann and Bjorn) follow Saim-Hann’s lead.

>Other than Eldrad, have any of them done stuff like your Primarchs/Marines?

P H O E N I X L O R D S. We need some codex entries for them akin to the primarchs, it’s just no one has done any. I would love an entry on how much of a badass Asurmen is (though his first death was pre-contact, so it would probably be a lot like canon).

It's more the Tau realized that it was pretty silly to constantly try to go it alone despite the other races of the galaxy offering to pitch in. Also the Tau don't have plot armor in this timeline.

They don't, but was claiming it had to be an anti-human one because if it was a pro-human one like Ulthwe it still sends the message of "be human is better"

The Tau are also mentioned to form their own, Tau-only regiments, that usually get called in to solve the problems a normal human+Eldar guard regiment can't solve alone.

You know, waaaay back in one of the old threads (about thread 4 or 5), it was suggested that it was O'Kais who kept what happened in the Kaurava system during Soulstorm from being a complete disaster after Boreale cocked it all up. O’Kais had to come riding to the recuse of an incompetent Space Marine commander to ensure that at least someone survived Kaurava instead of the human and Eldar forces being killed to a man.

So why not build on that and the above. O’Kais is one of the most well-known Tau military commanders alive in 999.M41. The reason he seems like such an Imperiaboo is he spent time as part of an Inquisitor’s retinue, so he’s spent time watching thing like Aspects of Steel and whatnot. Nevertheless, he’s still managed to garner quite the military reputation on his own through his own actions in the Tau military, no Imperial help required.

O’Kais got onto the Inquisitor’s retinue for a damn good reason, and people are shocked to learn he’s basically the Tau equivalent of Doomguy. O’Kais, for his part, is rather sedate about the whole affair, and although he prefers not to talk about what he’s seen, when he does talks it sounds like a normal person would talk about how they enjoyed a semester studying abroad. It’s debatable whether he actually feels this way, feels this way because of the muted connection Tau have to the Warp, or if he’s using it as a coping mechanism (given that he does avoid bringing it up).

He’s no Shadowsun, but that’s because Shadowsun is the equivalent of a soldier who somehow managed to fight on the front lines in the American Civil War, the Spanish-American War, World War I, World War II, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War (or any other series of major wars for your country of choice).

So we going with Fire Warrior game Kais also being the same guy as O'Kais?

Sounds good.

Given the shorter life span and less effective longevity treatments of the Tau he would be a brash young man in his Doomguy days. Now if he had hair it would be grey. His skin is lined and leathery, his eyes are wary, his pace measured.

O'Kais has seen some shit and shit related accessories. How old is he? 70 maybe. Maybe 75ish. Biologically. He's spent so much time rattling around on ships that it's hard to say. He was born 122 years ago but such is travel through the warp.

He should be a figure of near mythic proportions on the Eastern Fringe, his name spoken beyond traditional Tau Space. His Inquisitorial has passed the hundred years of silence rule so a lot of it's open to the public.

He has earned the distinction of commanding Space Marines to victory, a thing no other Fire Caste has done.

If anything he has become more dangerous in his twilight years. He is Doomguy and has trained Doomguys to succeed him.

Upon his death he has given orders for his body to be frozen and sent to Pech. He made a deal after the shit on Dolumar IV with a wise old Shaper. His funeral will be a feast before the Oathstone beneath the greatest Jagga Tree.

Tau have started trying their own rejuvenants after seeing that it was possible with the Imperium (plus longer time to try new tech, checked Lexicanum and Tau are at least a millenium or two ahead of schedule compared to vanilla). They're not as good as humans or the Eldar, given these species have had thousands of years to git gud, but unlike humans the treatments are available to everyone because Tau have a smaller, more efficient bureaucracy.

>Upon his death he has given orders for his body to be frozen and sent to Pech. He made a deal after the shit on Dolumar IV with a wise old Shaper. His funeral will be a feast before the Oathstone beneath the greatest Jagga Tree.

I like this. He wants to be eaten after his death, in the hopes that his flesh will be so badass it will make the Kroot into a bunch of Doomguys like him.

Or it's possible he lost a drunken bet with a Shaper and offered his flesh as payment on the eventuality of his death.